Episode 3 ruined everything

[falcon168]

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

[HNKenshiro]

I feel you.

[SonnyN18]

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.

[falcon168]

I don't even care about anybody's life in the game by now. Lee won't die no matter what happens of course. Clem won't die even if you don't cut her hair or teach her use of guns. Kenny.....who cares about Kenny anyway.

I wonder why don't they designed it in this way that in episode 2 all companions died except Larry. You are forced to stick with Larry and a new joined horse and a monkey to carry on finishing the rest of the episodes. That would definitly save you guys a hell lot of money and makes more people to feel my situation right now.

[SaveCarley]

Why does everybody feel the need to externate his hate for the game? Don't buy it and stop blaming, cause nobody cares (mainly TTG)

[SonnyN18]

I don't even care about anybody's life in the game by now. Lee won't die no matter what happens of course. Clem won't die even if you don't cut her hair or teach her use of guns. Kenny.....who cares about Kenny anyway.

I wonder why don't they designed it in this way that in episode 2 all companions died except Larry. You are forced to stick with Larry and a new joined horse and a monkey to carry on finishing the rest of the episodes. That would definitly save you guys a hell lot of money and makes more people to feel my situation right now.

not really

[ProjectPIKA]

i'm tired of everyone complaining about carley/doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/doug were most likely close to lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing larry and thought i had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in carley, who i shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and carley/doug's death as well as chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a god-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the tv show for keeping shane and daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of episode 3 of the game, i was left with people i had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on hershel's farm with kenny at the pharmacy: "you didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game is about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (lee's) relationship with carley changed me. This was someone i spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but i wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at lilly, i eventually got mad at ben, but i was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and i would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided i would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from omid and christa because i felt that would make carley, clementine, and even old hershel proud. That's my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate every single permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things will happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does not mean there is an illusion of choice. The walking dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than mass effect or dragon age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters now.

amen. Preach itttt

[Dead_Man_Walking]

I am open for the horse and monkey idea, though! :D TTG? Humor us? <3

[falcon168]

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take .

Chuck was right. He said "no matter you what you do, that girl(clem) will end up the same" just as the rest of the crew, will all end up the same. Which was a hint from TTG, telling you again that choices DO NOT matter!

[cormoran]

It seems that when some people hear "your choices matter" they expect far too much, like a game that could begin with Lee riding in the back of a cop car and ending up with Lee fighting Cthulhu in space or Lee getting drunk with pirates at the bottom of the ocean or Lee in a triple threat wrestling match against Gandalf and Darth Vader for the World Heavyweight Title at Wrestlemania or Lee winning the Tour de France eleven times in a row with two balls, no drugs and Clem in a trailer on the back depending on their choices in the game.

The choices matter, but they don't have to matter throughout the entire game. Videogames haven't evolved far enough to allow for the millions of permutations some of you seem to want. In the end game devs have to set boundaries.

You want complete choice? pick up a DnD rulebook and start a pen and paper roleplay.

[big-augen]

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

(...)

I love this episode. Lack of choices? I see it as loosing control. You/Lee cannot control or decide everything. Everything turns to shit. Now, Lilli is gone, Kenny is down... Lee tells Ben to step up, but it is Lee who has to step up now.

[martymcfly]

I think if players want infinite choices, they should stop playing The Walking Dead and go outside on a real adventure in the real world. If Telltale programmed every possible decision and outcome, the games would never release - and people already get grumpy when there are delays. Yes, ultimately it's a linear game - but the illusion of choice and influencing the story is absolutely fantastic.

[Kenneloth]

I think if players want infinite choices, they should stop playing The Walking Dead and go outside on a real adventure in the real world. If Telltale programmed every possible decision and outcome, the games would never release - and people already get grumpy when there are delays. Yes, ultimately it's a linear game - but the illusion of choice and influencing the story is absolutely fantastic.

/agree

[Strayth]

but the illusion of choice and influencing the story is absolutely fantastic.

Illusion. Other games that say you can influence the story are not lying.

Geez look at Blade Runner the game...

[martymcfly]

Illusion. Other games that say you can influence the story are not lying.

Geez look at Blade Runner the game...

I reviewed Blade Runner: The Game for Adventure Classic Gaming a few years ago. Superb experience - but I don't get what your point is? The influence over Ray McCoy's decisions is still an illusion - most of the major player-specific plot divergences come right at the very end, which is a lot easier to do than in the middle of a game.

[skepticalguy90]

Honestly at the end of episode 3, what is the difference between anyone's save?

[martymcfly]

Honestly at the end of episode 3, what is the difference between anyone's save?

The emotions you felt. A character that died - and meant something to me - might have meant something completely different to you, or even been a different character entirely. In my save, I feel like I have protected Clementine every step of the way - did you? If these small nuances aren't enough for you then of course that's fine, but I think it's a shame because they are what make The Walking Dead - at least for me personally - so special.

[cormoran]

I reviewed Blade Runner: The Game for Adventure Classic Gaming a few years ago. Superb experience - but I don't get what your point is? The influence over Ray McCoy's decisions is still an illusion - most of the major player-specific plot divergences come right at the very end, which is a lot easier to do than in the middle of a game.

To add to that, the smaller differences throughout blade runner were randomly generated at the start of each game, which is actually the game affecting your choices rather than your choices affecting the game.

[skepticalguy90]

The problem for me is they make little difference the game. Carley's/ Doug's death felt like an easy way to avoid the extra hassle to me

[Karmonger]

Totally agree with topicstarter. Lack of choices? Its not about that. This game has plenty of choices. BUT decisions are not worth anything. They DONT MATTER. No matter if u choose to save Duck or Shawn, they both die and u cant do anything about it. No matter if u choose to save Doug or Carley, they both die. No matter if u help Kenny or Lilly when Larry is about to die, he WILL die anyway and your relationship with Lilly wont change anyhow - she still will go crazy and kill either Doug or Carley and u cant do anything about her staying in the group. Should I continue? I can hardly think of decisions that really matter at this game. Besides dialogue options that makes you either asshole or lifesaver. I dont argue that this game is great in terms of storytelling and drama but decisions that you make throughout it just... I just dont feel that they matter. Oh well maybe I will change my opinion after episodes 4 and 5 but that is how I see that after episode 3.

[dubesor]

I think if players want infinite choices, they should stop playing The Walking Dead. [...] If Telltale programmed every possible decision and outcome, the games would never release

Totally wrong. I don't want infinite choices. But yes I want 1 or 2 MAJOR choices that actually matter. So far, not a single choice -after 60% of the game 3/5 episodes- mattered. Nothing had any impact. At all.

We don't want every decision to completely branch the story and telltale having to make 50 different cutscenes etc. But at least make the player feel in 1 or 2 occasions that his choice actually DID matter. And DID change something. Because as of now there are no signs of this ever happening and that is a huge disappointment.

[martymcfly]

Soo... at the very beginning of Ep 3 when I shot the woman to save her suffering, it didn't matter? Well perhaps it didn't matter to you - which is fair enough. And perhaps it didn't really make a real difference to the game afterwards - again, fair enough. But it mattered to me when I was playing and I know I made the right decision. In my opinion, you get as much out of the game as you put in.

[LokiHavok]

Wow. Way to be melodramatic OP. What did you expect?
It's a story game. It follows a set narrative.
The choices you make don't effect the eventuality of the story

Did you really expect the developers to make a game like that?
It would take so unbelievably long. And you fanboys already get irked when it takes longer than a month to deliver an episode.

If you want an unfathomably dynamic gameplay experience. Like someone else said. Pick up a pen-and-paper RPG. And even then the GM will prolly railroad the game to go down his set narrative.

This is a great adventure game, with some of the most emotionally engaging storylines I've ever had the pleasure to participate in. And that's what it is. Interactive fiction in graphic form. Not a zombie apocalypse simulator...

[TheWaltzingBread]

I have a feeling that our relationships with characters will come full swing in episode 4 to the point where most groups are different. Will Ben feel the guilt after you trusted him and sacrifice himself etc.

Still pissed about Doug though :(

[LokiHavok]

But at least make the player feel in 1 or 2 occasions that his choice actually DID matter. And DID change something. Because as of now there are no signs of this ever happening and that is a huge disappointment.

How about when you chose Carly or Doug? That was a huge choice that really mattered.

[dubesor]

How about when you chose Carly or Doug? That was a huge choice that really mattered.

how so? Both do the same and both die at the same point of the game. I was talking about a lasting decision that differs from what would happen if you chose something else. Just 1.

[LokiHavok]

Yes, they both die eventually. But under different circumstances. it's not like the devs simply swapped models for the death scenes. Something different did happen.

Carley antagonized Lilly into shooting her.

If Carley wasn't around she would have shot at Ben. Which she did. But good guy Doug was collateral damage.

Two completely different scenes. Not to mention the differences int eh story between the saving of either of them and their eventual death.

The only thing similar between the two scenarios is they both eventually die. That's it.
Everything else is different. How they contribute to the group and how they've helped Lee out all depend on that char's personality. The choice of who gets those extra 3 months of life is a pretty big decision.

Like real life some situations are beyond one person's control. Lilly was going to shoot who she thought was the traitor no matter what.

[YamiRaziel]

sonnyn18 great post!

Guys, do you control life? Do you save people's lives just because you want to? Do you become rich just because you feel you should be? It is the struggles that you go true and decisions that you make that matter, not the results. Even in real life we don't always get to have the results that we want. The choices are what define you as people and that's the most important thing.

Some of you are really missing the point of this game. If you want a complete control over situations, go play Left 4 Dead and kill as much zombies as you want. Unfortunately life won't abide to every little whim you have, and neither will this game.

[Xebioz]

Yes, they both die eventually. But under different circumstances. it's not like the devs simply swapped models for the death scenes. Something different did happen.

Carley antagonized Lilly into shooting her.

If Carley wasn't around she would have shot at Ben. Which she did. But good guy Doug was collateral damage.

Two completely different scenes. Not to mention the differences int eh story between the saving of either of them and their eventual death.

The only thing similar between the two scenarios is they both eventually die. That's it.
Everything else is different. How they contribute to the group and how they've helped Lee out all depend on that char's personality. The choice of who gets those extra 3 months of life is a pretty big decision.

Like real life some situations are beyond one person's control. Lilly was going to shoot who she thought was the traitor no matter what.

That alone would be fine. But the fact that they kill off every character except for clem and Kenny (Ben wasn't from the start) means that the decisions you made that only the dead characters know about can't really affect the story that much anymore. I'm not talking about RP differences because they are fine, but the fact that the story changes and that the characters act differently I have a hard time seeing as all of the characters who knew stuff from the first two episodes are dead.

I feel that in a way the choice of people that died (Carley/Doug instead of Ben) is partly because they want to reduce development time or maybe I'm just a pessimist.

[cormoran]

how so? Both do the same and both die at the same point of the game. I was talking about a lasting decision that differs from what would happen if you chose something else. Just 1.

How exactly are you expecting it to be different?

[Xebioz]

sonnyn18 great post!

Guys, do you control life? Do you save people's lives just because you want to? Do you become rich just because you feel you should be? It is the struggles that you go true and decisions that you make that matter, not the results. Even in real life we don't always get to have the results that we want. The choices are what define you as people and that's the most important thing.

Some of you are really missing the point of this game. If you want a complete control over situations, go play Left 4 Dead and kill as much zombies as you want. Unfortunately life won't abide to every little whim you have, and neither will this game.

You are completely missing the point of what atleast I mean when I want the story to be changed. See my post above for details.

[Drbg]

Wow. Way to be melodramatic OP. What did you expect?
. And you fanboys already get irked when it takes longer than a month to deliver an episode.


No shit Sherlock. This was originally promised to be a monthly episodic game. Now they sneakily changed it to periodically.

[Lykosia]

Only thing that disappointed me in EP 3 was that they didn't even try to offer any explanation for the deux ex machina ending of EP 2. That car came out of nowhere to solve their problem, classic DEM. I still hope they at least try to give a plausible explanation for it in EP 4 or 5.

[YamiRaziel]

You are completely missing the point of what atleast I mean when I want the story to be changed. See my post above for details.

No, I'm not. It is wrong that dead characters do not affect that story. They do affect you, and Clem. The two most important characters in the story.
At least choices affect me, I'm not a superhero and I know my limits. I try to do what's best for the group from my perspective and I get a bit depressed when it fails... because you know it's like life.

[NeonBlade]

Basically the only difference between everyone's save file. Is if Clem has on a hoodie or not. What a complete botch job.

And as I stated before, Doug players such as myself really got the shaft. I can only take comfort in knowing that the story and scenarios flow better with Doug than opposed to Carley.

[HelloCthulhu]

That alone would be fine. But the fact that they kill off every character except for clem and Kenny (Ben wasn't from the start) means that the decisions you made that only the dead characters know about can't really affect the story that much anymore. I'm not talking about RP differences because they are fine, but the fact that the story changes and that the characters act differently I have a hard time seeing as all of the characters who knew stuff from the first two episodes are dead.

I feel that in a way the choice of people that died (Carley/Doug instead of Ben) is partly because they want to reduce development time or maybe I'm just a pessimist.
Have you ever picked up a Walking Dead comic? That is exactly what happens in the books. People die and all the time invested in them doesn't mean anything. That is robert kirkman's style. If people expect this to be like an rpg then they will be sorely disappointed. Think of it more like a choose-your-own-adventure book. You make decisions, but the story is already written and how you get to the end is the only difference.

[Xebioz]

No, I'm not. It is wrong that dead characters do not affect that story. They do affect you, and Clem. The two most important characters in the story.
At least choices affect me, I'm not a superhero and I know my limits. I try to do what's best for the group from my perspective and I get a bit depressed when it fails... because you know it's like life.

Like I said, you missed the point...

I never said that the dead characters don't influence the story, I said the choices that you made before that only dead characters know about don't change the story. Which means that most of the decisions in episode one and two don't really matter. Choosing Doug or Carley for instance matters because the characters that are alive still remember them. Other choices that don't include the characters that are alive like shooting that girl at the motel now has no significanse as the only character that remembers it is you (and Glenn which is not doing any more cameos). So you see, many choices are nulled out by the fact that the choices you made are only known by dead people...

[Xebioz]

Have you ever picked up a Walking Dead comic? That is exactly what happens in the books. People die and all the time invested in them doesn't mean anything. That is robert kirkman's style. If people expect this to be like an rpg then they will be sorely disappointed. Think of it more like a choose-your-own-adventure book. You make decisions, but the story is already written and how you get to the end is the only difference.

That's fine, but do you actually remember what always pop's up when you start a new episode of the game? No? Well, then I wouldn't care that much either.

[LokiHavok]

Think of it more like a choose-your-own-adventure book. You make decisions, but the story is already written and how you get to the end is the only difference.

That's the best way to describe it. It's not an RPG guise! It's interactive fiction!

[HelloCthulhu]

The choices you make do change the story. Not in DRASTIC ways, but they do. If that is not enough for you, go ask ttg for a copy of their game engine and build your own game with it.

[Xebioz]

The coices you make do change the story. Not in DRASTIC ways, but they do. If that is not enough for you, go ask ttg for a copy of their game engine and build your own game with it.

I would, but I don't feel like creating a game where I know what will happen for me to play said game and know everything about it. Do you guys not understand that "Go make your own game" thing really fails when it comes to adventure games?

Back on track now...

[HelloCthulhu]

I would, but I don't feel like creating a game where I know what will happen for me to play said game and know everything about it. Do you guys not understand that "Go make your own game" thing really fails when it comes to adventure games?

Back on track now...
Do you understand where the argument "I would but it would ruin it for me" falls flat when talking about a game company that did just that? You complain about a game that is limited by the technology available and the time they have to program it.

On a separate note, do you realize the butterfly effect that would have if they did give you one? They would have to in effect, from there on out, build two different games. One for one path, one for another. that would LITERALLY double the release schedule delays. And that is just 1 decision.

[Xebioz]

Do you understand where the argument "I would but it would ruin it for me" falls flat when talking about a game company that did just that? You complain about a game that is limited by the technology available and the time they have to program it.

On a separate note, do you realize the butterfly effect that would have if they did give you one? They would have to in effect, from there on out, build two different games. One for one path, one for another. that would LITERALLY double the release schedule delays. And that is just 1 decision.

I know I'm bringing up a game known for it's decisions and an old game that you probably haven't played, but you do know that a game like for instance Blade Runner had a lot of decisions and meaningful choices and that was released ages ago? I don't really get the limited by technology thing. And don't start with the development time. I'd rather have the promised product in a year than 80% in two months. But that's just my cup of tea.

[cormoran]

I know I'm bringing up a game known for it's decisions and an old game that you probably haven't played, but you do know that a game like for instance Blade Runner had a lot of decisions and meaningful choices and that was released ages ago? I don't really get the limited by technology thing. And don't start with the development time. I'd rather have the promised product in a year than 80% in two months. But that's just my cup of tea.

Blade runner got mentioned in the first page, those choices weren't as meaningful as you're making out.

[JabbaDaHuttX7]

Choices not mattering is a valid complaint. I liked episode 3, really, but not only did any of your choices not matter throughout the episode, your previous decisions also get sidelined.

The story was good, but I think criticism is more helpful than just being a defensive fanboy.

[HelloCthulhu]

I know I'm bringing up a game known for it's decisions and an old game that you probably haven't played, but you do know that a game like for instance Blade Runner had a lot of decisions and meaningful choices and that was released ages ago? I don't really get the limited by technology thing. And don't start with the development time. I'd rather have the promised product in a year than 80% in two months. But that's just my cup of tea.
Would you be willing to wait a year for 1 episode? I don't think so.

[HelloCthulhu]

Choices not mattering is a valid complaint. I liked episode 3, really, but not only did any of your choices not matter throughout the episode, your previous decisions also get sidelined.

The story was good, but I think criticism is more helpful than just being a defensive fanboy.
It is a valid point, but not as huge a point as people are making it out to be. I personally feel the game is following the formula that Kirkman used in the majority of his comics. If you don't know what I mean, go read the past 100 issues. It will become apparent.

[Xebioz]

Blade runner got mentioned in the first page, those choices weren't as meaningful as you're making out.

Well then, maybe I just remember a game from 97' for having good graphics? That story is different every time you play it and you don't know how stuff is going to go down even if you have played it before. If they could do that back then they should be able to do some kind of branching story now no? And that was FMV in addition which is a horrible tool to work with when trying to lower costs.

But anyway. What I am saying is not that TWD is a bad game or that Episode 3 is bad. I just feel that a good product should be criticized when it shows flaws and that's what I'm doing. Hailing the game as the savior of gaming really isn't going to turn out a better Episode 4, so I'm trying to help in my way.

[JabbaDaHuttX7]

It is a valid point, but not as huge a point as people are making it out to be. I personally feel the game is following the formula that Kirkman used in the majority of his comics. If you don't know what I mean, go read the past 100 issues. It will become apparent.

The comics don't give you any promise of choice so it's not a question of "what if..."

[Xebioz]

It is a valid point, but not as huge a point as people are making it out to be. I personally feel the game is following the formula that Kirkman used in the majority of his comics. If you don't know what I mean, go read the past 100 issues. It will become apparent.

Yes and that's fine, I get it (I've read a bit of it a while back). But the fact is that this game is supposed to give you a role and then let you work with it (inside of plausible boundaries of course). The fact is though that for a game that claims choices and decisions as it's most important feature, it doesn't seem to focus on that. I love the story, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel like having a lot of lee'way (;)). I don't want you to be able to save everyone or to be able to kill random people in the group, or do other wierd stuff. What I'm asking for is a branching story to a logical degree.

Tell me three significant changes in the end of episode 3 because of your choices. In the end of episode 2 I could easily have answered that question, but now it's getting harder for me.

[HelloCthulhu]

Well then, maybe I just remember a game from 97' for having good graphics? That story is different every time you play it and you don't know how stuff is going to go down even if you have played it before. If they could do that back then they should be able to do some kind of branching story now no? And that was FMV in addition which is a horrible tool to work with when trying to lower costs.

But anyway. What I am saying is not that TWD is a bad game or that Episode 3 is bad. I just feel that a good product should be criticized when it shows flaws and that's what I'm doing. Hailing the game as the savior of gaming really isn't going to turn out a better Episode 4, so I'm trying to help in my way.
Except that episodic games don't really lend themselves to that kind of story. Especially one with a coalescent story. I get what you are saying, but this is TTG. TTG makes episodic games; they don't make games that are full games all at once. Jurassic park was the exception and it failed horribly. HORRIBLY.

If another gaming company was making the game, I would say yes, you are right...give them all the time in the world to get that game out there...but I just don't see Telltale making an episodic game that branches. It would be programming hell.

[JabbaDaHuttX7]

Well then, maybe I just remember a game from 97' for having good graphics? That story is different every time you play it and you don't know how stuff is going to go down even if you have played it before. If they could do that back then they should be able to do some kind of branching story now no? And that was FMV in addition which is a horrible tool to work with when trying to lower costs.

But anyway. What I am saying is not that TWD is a bad game or that Episode 3 is bad. I just feel that a good product should be criticized when it shows flaws and that's what I'm doing. Hailing the game as the savior of gaming really isn't going to turn out a better Episode 4, so I'm trying to help in my way.

I agree. I think episode 3 had better storytelling than either of the two episodes before it, but...

[HelloCthulhu]

Yes and that's fine, I get it (I've read a bit of it a while back). But the fact is that this game is supposed to give you a role and then let you work with it (inside of plausible boundaries of course). The fact is though that for a game that claims choices and decisions as it's most important feature, it doesn't seem to focus on that. I love the story, don't get me wrong, but I don't feel like having a lot of lee'way (;)). I don't want you to be able to save everyone or to be able to kill random people in the group, or do other wierd stuff. What I'm asking for is a branching story to a logical degree.

Tell me three significant changes in the end of episode 3 because of your choices. In the end of episode 2 I could easily have answered that question, but now it's getting harder for me.
I would disagree that choices was ever billed as the most important feature in the game. It simply one of the features that makes it different than most games. Even most adventure games.

[TeleporterFIN]

Agree with the OP, episode 3 ruined everything for me. Quite ironically, right after Carley died I quit and next time I tried to play my save games were corrupted, so I'd have to do the whole game again.
Guess do I want to?

[TeleporterFIN]

---

[HelloCthulhu]

The comics don't give you any promise of choice so it's not a question of "what if..."
Well that all depends on how you are looking at the game. It's not meant to be a game that has completely different outcomes to the episode depending on your choices. It's meant to be an adventure game with the ability to affect the story with your choices. Now does that mean that the story will be completely different down to the outcome? No, I don't think they ever promised that.

Agree with the OP, episode 3 ruined everything for me. Quite ironically, right after Carley died I quit and next time I tried to play my save games were corrupted, so I'd have to do the whole game again.
Guess do I want to?
then really, they did their job by evoking feelings of betrayal from you. You might not like it, but that is something authors have done many times. Look at George R.R. Martin: He kills characters off all the time independent of whether they are popular or not.

[Xebioz]

It is a valid point, but not as huge a point as people are making it out to be. I personally feel the game is following the formula that Kirkman used in the majority of his comics. If you don't know what I mean, go read the past 100 issues. It will become apparent.

Oh and for the record let me show you what I mean when I'm talking about meaningful choices. For instance:

You know the gun "charlotte"? Lee has it with him on the RV and if you keep Lilly with you after the accident on the road then she runs of with it right? Well if you threw her out on the road then he would still have the gun with him (which he for some reason ditches on the RV). A small difference like that can change so much when it comes to choices (at least for me). And this doesn't mean that you somehow knew that this was going to happen beforehand so you still don't have control really, but IT MAKES SENSE. And that's what I mean when I mean choices matter. The fact that something is different, not necessarily people alive or dead (clementine's hoodie is a good example). It's not as hard as people are claiming it to be.

[WadeTheButcher]

When someone (TT) states that the choices/decisions you make matter, you assume that they will have a larger impact on the story. TT stating that your choices matter is like stating that the game is a monthly episodic. Either way, episode 3 sucked and I can't believe it took as long as it did to create. Aside of what Lilly did, there was nothing shocking. The game/story is very predictable and agree with the OP, I could care less about the next episode. It's not about the characters, it's the entire game.

*snip*

[HelloCthulhu]

First of all, Wade, Just because someone has a different opinion from you, it does not give you the right to berate and belittle them. You lost the debate as soon as you did.

Second, I personally disagree with almost 95% of your entire post. I, however, will not stoop to calling you names for it.

[Vainamoinen]

The berating is gone, please carry on as if nothing had happened. Thank you.

[Xebioz]

First of all, Wade, Just because someone has a different opinion from you, it does not give you the right to berate and belittle them. You lost the debate as soon as you did.

Second, I personally disagree with almost 95% of your entire post. I, however, will not stoop to calling you names for it.

I agree with you and that he was way out of line, but I just presented a meaningful choice a bit up on the page. Do you think something like that would be impossible to program? If so I just think that you must be a fanboy as you can't criticize TT at all. I'm not saying that you have to change major things for it to be different...

[HelloCthulhu]

I agree with you and that he was way out of line, but I just presented a meaningful choice a bit up on the page. Do you think something like that would be impossible to program? If so I just think that you must a fanboy as you can't criticize TT at all. I'm not saying that you have to change major things for it to be different...
I think given the format for the game, it would be near impossible to accommodate all the choices over the term of 5 episodes for the reason I gave before: the butterfly effect. You make 1 choice that changes things per episode, hypothetically.



That means that in episode 1 they need to program an alternate timeline for everything in the game from that point on in episode 1. Not that bad so far, but still a lot of programming work.
Then in episode 2, they need to create 2 completely different paths based on your choice in episode 1 and work it into a choice in episode 2. Starting to get more muddy.
Then in episode 3 they now need to make 4 different paths for the game.

Do you see how it gets to be impossible to meet their deadlines given only 1 choice per episode? Now if you are talking about cosmetic changes, like the hoodie, They did give you one of those in this episode: her hair. If you are talking about more than cosmetic changes, you are getting much more into complicated territories.

[Xebioz]

I think given the format for the game, it would be near impossible to accommodate all the choices over the term of 5 episodes for the reason I gave before: the butterfly effect. You make 1 choice that changes things per episode, hypothetically.



That means that in episode 1 they need to program an alternate timeline for everything in the game from that point on in episode 1. Not that bad so far, but still a lot of programming work.
Then in episode 2, they need to create 2 completely different paths based on your choice in episode 1 and work it into a choice in episode 2. Starting to get more muddy.
Then in episode 3 they now need to make 4 different paths for the game.

Do you see how it gets to be impossible to meet their deadlines given only 1 choice per episode? Now if you are talking about cosmetic changes, like the hoodie, They did give you one of those in this episode: her hair. If you are talking about more than cosmetic changes, you are getting much more into complicated territories.

I would understand the difficulty as long as these decisions took a ton of work each, but the stuff I described is easy to interchange into the story. The fact that you think that would be diffucult relative to the stuff they already did with the doug/carley differences makes your argument silly at best.

[HelloCthulhu]

I would understand the difficulty as long as these decisions took a ton of work each, but the stuff I described is easy to interchange into the story. The fact that you think that would be diffucult relative to the stuff they already did with the doug/carley differences makes your argument silly at best.

But like other pointed out, the doug/carley differences really are cosmetic at best. They really don't do that much differently.

[Xebioz]

But like other pointed out, the doug/carley differences really are cosmetic at best. They really don't do that much differently.

Fight scene changes (both st. John's and bandit fight.), dialogue changes, doug's alarm system changes things in both episode 2 and 3. They are killed in different ways, etc etc. This is enough of a difference for me to say that the choice matters, although it matters much less now as only three characters knew him/her and they weren't the ones who knew them the best.

[kirby18]

I can not disagree more. I am pumped for episode 4 maybe not as much as i was for episide 3, but the only thing i agree with you slightly is that your choices really dont make a difference, whoch im ok with bc its still a great storyline.

[Christoaster]

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.

Excellent points! I agree with you and I'm tired of people fucking complaining about the choices not mattering. People don't see how the choices really matters.

You defended TellTale without coming off as a fanboy sucking their dick, haha.

Good job.

[Xebioz]

Excellent points! I agree with you and I'm tired of people fucking complaining about the choices not mattering. People don't see how the choices really matters.

You defended TellTale without coming off as a fanboy sucking their dick, haha.

Good job.

Then of course you can tell me three meaningful differences that can be found by the end of episode 3 right? I can't.

[FictionRaider007]

I agree with you. Most Telltale games of this make try to give you the best narrative and plot over complete godly control over who lives and dies.

I'll admit that I was a bit annoyed when Carley/Doug died, but, I predicted they'd die anyway as soon as they announced they'd be making a sequel - I thought "There's no way they're going to keep a determinant character over two games."

Just because of this death everyone seems to be making a big deal out of it but it's the same as real life - no matter what you can't save everyone.

I feel it was very clever. It makes any bond with Lilly turn sour and you lose one of the most trustworthy characters. Your left Kenny and ben who aren't excatly reliable in a tough spot and a bunch of new characters that you don't know if they deserve your trust yet.

Basically it leaves you in a terrible state. It IS a shame you lose some of the better characters, but in the end it might pay off.

[HelloCthulhu]

Then of course you can tell me three meaningful differences that can be found by the end of episode 3 right? I can't.
Sure can. How about the choice to tell everyone about your past or not? Or how about the decision of whether you choose to fight kenny or talk him down? Or how about the choice of whether to let kenny kill his son or you do it? Also, how you treated kenny in this episode does a lot to repair your relationship with him if you chose to not side with him in episode 2. That isn't even counting the woman in the beginning, that if you let her suffer lets you get more time to gather supplies.

[Xebioz]

I agree with you. Most Telltale games of this make try to give you the best narrative and plot over complete godly control over who lives and dies.

I'll admit that I was a bit annoyed when Carley/Doug died, but, I predicted they'd die anyway as soon as they announced they'd be making a sequel - I thought "There's no way they're going to keep a determinant character over two games."

Just because of this death everyone seems to be making a big deal out of it but it's the same as real life - no matter what you can't save everyone.

I feel it was very clever. It makes any bond with Lilly turn sour and you lose one of the most trustworthy characters. Your left Kenny and ben who aren't excatly reliable in a tough spot and a bunch of new characters that you don't know if they deserve your trust yet.

Basically it leaves you in a terrible state. It IS a shame you lose some of the better characters, but in the end it might pay off.

My points have never included that this had a bad story only that by the end of episode three you have pretty much rebooted the choice making as it seems little before this point will make it past this marker.

[Xebioz]

Sure can. How about the choice to tell everyone about your past or not? Or how about the decision of whether you choose to fight kenny or talk him down? Or how about the choice of whether to let kenny kill his son or you do it? Also, how you treated kenny in this episode does a lot to repair your relationship with him if you chose to not side with him in episode 2.

Give me one indication of how this changes anything. I was a total douche on one playthrough and a nice guy an another and still got the exact same replies from Kenny, and choices should change that no? And that you told people about the past hasn't really impacted anything beyond that road showdown. Personally I see the only real changes by the end of episode three being clems hoodie and hair which isn't that groundbreaking

[HelloCthulhu]

Give me one indication of how this changes anything. I was a total douche on one playthrough and a nice guy an another and still got the exact same replies from Kenny, and choices should change that no? And that you told people about the past hasn't really impacted anything beyond that road showdown. Personally I see the only real changes by the end of episode three being clems hoodie and hair which isn't that groundbreaking
I got different reactions...Maybe it was your choices.

[Xebioz]

I got different reactions...Maybe it was your choices.

I mean by the end of ep. 3. During the episodes it has changed his responses, but in the end his feelings towards lee were exactly the same.

[LokiHavok]

Then you prolly sided against him one too many times. In my game Kenny was depressed of course but harbourned no ill will towards Lee, toher than what is normally expected after losing one's family.

[GamingDragon316]

Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies

[Xebioz]

Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies

I give up. If you want to hail thos game as perfect then go on ahead, but you aren't really giving real feedback. I love this game, but I see room for improvement.

[LokiHavok]

Have you ever played an adventure game before TWD Xeboiz?

[Xebioz]

Have you ever played an adventure game before TWD Xeboiz?

Plenty, but the one closest to this would probably be blade runner. This game has it as a main feature to be changed by decisions made however which makes it less like a traditional adventure game.

A few examples of adv. Games would be:
Monkey island (series)
Day of the living tentacle
Blade runner
Phantasmogoria (1and2 although 2sucks)
Etc.

[Christoaster]

The emotions you felt. A character that died - and meant something to me - might have meant something completely different to you, or even been a different character entirely. In my save, I feel like I have protected Clementine every step of the way - did you? If these small nuances aren't enough for you then of course that's fine, but I think it's a shame because they are what make The Walking Dead - at least for me personally - so special.

I agree. I made three different save slots and I thought it was really cool the different things that happened.

-Fighting Kenny/Talking it out with him

-Shooting Duck yourself/Letting Kenny shoot him

-Doug dies/Carly dies (you feel different about each death)

-Multiple ways to raise Clementine. (Morals/Whatever for survival/etc)

-Multiple ways to make your Lee

-Siding with Kenny/Lilly

-Telling the group about your secret/ not telling anyone/only telling selected people

-& much more

I think I'm the only one who appreciates these different choices and changes, since I see people bitch about the choices not mattering. I thought it was really cool the different things that play out which make this game that much more special.

[LokiHavok]

Plenty, but the one closest to this would probably be blade runner. This game has it as a main feature to be changed by decisions made however which makes it less like a traditional adventure game.

A few examples of adv. Games would be:
Monkey island (series)
Day of the living tentacle
Blade runner
Phantasmogoria (1and2 although 2sucks)
Etc.


Well then you know more than most about how these types of games are formatted and executed. To expect a plethora of branching storylines is really beyond the scope a traditional graphic adventure game.

[CTP]

Well then you know more than most about how these types of games are formatted and executed. To expect a plethora of branching storylines is really beyond the scope a traditional graphic adventure game.

I don't think anyone expected a "plethora" of branching storylines, but from the advertising ("Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series.") I would at least expect a handful of those and certainly differences in the survior group at the end of EP3.

Also, I completely disagree with your statement that branching storylines are beyond the scope of a traditional graphic adventure game. Did you ever play "Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis"? That's a great example, don't you think?
I think adventures are one of the most suitable game types to host a branching story. It may be more complicated than an interactive movie but certainly easier than a RPG.
Admittedly, it is a lot of work but if TTG is not willing to put this effort in their games they should at least not advertise it. I'd be happy with a linear adventure TWD...

CTP

[Death689God]

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.

This

[JOHIsaac]

I think the choices you do are more of psychologically nature and I love that.

Why have so many people choosed to let the last maneater live? I killed both because if one live he will just continue to eat human flesh and kill people for food.

Why did so many people stop to punsh him after the camera changed position and you saw that everybody is looking at you?


Everybody in this thread is more or less right. The decisions you make does not influence the story a lot but as said I love this psychologically decisions a lot. Shot her/him, safe him/her fight him/her....

[occono]

Eh, would it really have been that much effort keeping Doug/Carley around? Just recording more dialogue and giving them excuses to not be involved in big setpieces, like in episode 2. Or at least make it so they can leave the group instead of dying.

Yes, it's emotionally effective, but still, it feels pointless that both of them end up dead no matter what. I guess I'll get over it though.

[bazenji]

Did someone mention Blade Runner the game?

The game is affected by both your choices and the game's choices set before you. This gives not just the ability to make choices but also the ability to react on the fly to choices set before you. In one game you might be shooting a replicant, in another it might be a human. They may run or turn and fight. You may be able to kill a character now and save yourself a fight later. It all depends on what elements the game has set and what you choose to act upon.

But that's a different game and neither here nor there.

[LadyJ]

Totally wrong. I don't want infinite choices. But yes I want 1 or 2 MAJOR choices that actually matter. So far, not a single choice -after 60% of the game 3/5 episodes- mattered. Nothing had any impact. At all.

We don't want every decision to completely branch the story and telltale having to make 50 different cutscenes etc. But at least make the player feel in 1 or 2 occasions that his choice actually DID matter. And DID change something. Because as of now there are no signs of this ever happening and that is a huge disappointment.

Major agree! I posted about this in another thread earlier. I am not talking about total control and infinite choices but dang let SOMETHING count!

My biggest beef at the moment is the whole pharmacy thing. Excerpts from my previous post:

The girl at the pharmacy. (I left her for bait) What if when you left her, the story unfolded as it did and you had time to get supplies. OR If you shot her, you were unable to get supplies and had to leave without anything to save your lives. OR you save her and she comes back to the group where you find she's bitten and she turns.

Any of those three scenarios were imminently doable, gave the player an actual impactful choice and didn't bloat the story or create long term contradictions to the main plot.

It wouldn't have been difficult to set an if then parameter/variable regarding the obtained supplies that WOULD have made a difference in the rest of the series.

WHAT THE HELL was the point of counting how many supplies you were able to collect? In the end, you didn't even get to keep them. So why the hell waste my time telling me how many items I picked up? THAT was Not necessary! I really thought the number and type of things I got would make a difference.....that was the biggest dog chasing tail bullshit I've experienced in a while. See, this is my problem with this choice illusion thing...they actually wasted the time to code THAT when it didn't make one whit of difference rather than code something that did.

[JackSchirmer]

It seems that when some people hear "your choices matter" they expect far too much, like a game that could begin with Lee riding in the back of a cop car and ending up with Lee fighting Cthulhu in space or Lee getting drunk with pirates at the bottom of the ocean or Lee in a triple threat wrestling match against Gandalf and Darth Vader for the World Heavyweight Title at Wrestlemania or Lee winning the Tour de France eleven times in a row with two balls, no drugs and Clem in a trailer on the back depending on their choices in the game.

The choices matter, but they don't have to matter throughout the entire game. Videogames haven't evolved far enough to allow for the millions of permutations some of you seem to want. In the end game devs have to set boundaries.

You want complete choice? pick up a DnD rulebook and start a pen and paper roleplay.

Gee, that'd be impressive, except for the fact that TTG can't even get my choices to carry from one episode to the next (despite their claims to the contrary). TTG are the ones who've been pumping the CHOICES MATTER!! business all along, and since they can't master the basic carryover mechanices of making choices matter, they get a failing grade in their self-professed most important subject.

[JackSchirmer]

I would disagree that choices was ever billed as the most important feature in the game. It simply one of the features that makes it different than most games. Even most adventure games.This is factually ludicrous. TTG is constantly pimping "CHOICE MATTERS!!" in everyone one of their ads and promos.

[Funatick]

I think given the format for the game, it would be near impossible to accommodate all the choices over the term of 5 episodes for the reason I gave before: the butterfly effect. You make 1 choice that changes things per episode, hypothetically.



That means that in episode 1 they need to program an alternate timeline for everything in the game from that point on in episode 1. Not that bad so far, but still a lot of programming work.
Then in episode 2, they need to create 2 completely different paths based on your choice in episode 1 and work it into a choice in episode 2. Starting to get more muddy.
Then in episode 3 they now need to make 4 different paths for the game.

Do you see how it gets to be impossible to meet their deadlines given only 1 choice per episode? Now if you are talking about cosmetic changes, like the hoodie, They did give you one of those in this episode: her hair. If you are talking about more than cosmetic changes, you are getting much more into complicated territories.


I dont think its getting so much imposible if they just make 2 paths per episode. They can still continue with 2 paths in episode 3 where it just use your choices from ep1,2...

[TeleporterFIN]

Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies

Are you fucking serious? Almost everyone dies in Episode 3, no matter what. Carley/Doug, Duck, Katjaa, and Lilly has the choice to be thrown out.

I understand the point of some people that you can't control other people, but do you have any idea how frustrating it is to see your favourite character die without being able to do anything, and if you play through the game multiple times you have to see those scenes EVERY time?
:mad:

[Ninja Gaijin]

Gee, that'd be impressive, except for the fact that TTG can't even get my choices to carry from one episode to the next (despite their claims to the contrary). TTG are the ones who've been pumping the CHOICES MATTER!! business all along, and since they can't master the basic carryover mechanices of making choices matter, they get a failing grade in their self-professed most important subject.

Yep.

Fix for the last 2 eps or total fail TTG.

In ep 4, have something that matters that changes the story and ending of ep 5. Make ep 5 and ep 4 take longer to come out. Don't rush. Make SOME choices carry through properly.

Otherwise it's just a gimmick. It's the same as any other game with different dialog options. Seeing as how the dialog options don't branch any different events to take place, they are totally redundant. Upset with the false advertising since episode 1. You could tell with the statistics % screen at the end, that nothing mattered. They just wanted to see what sort of choices people make. So it's free market research for their next series.

Lame.

Finished the Bone series. I'm waiting for that still. But you can't come through with that either...

Jeff Smith deserves better

[Sentient Orange]

I don't think anyone expected a "plethora" of branching storylines, but from the advertising ("Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series.") I would at least expect a handful of those and certainly differences in the survior group at the end of EP3.

[...]
Admittedly, it is a lot of work but if TTG is not willing to put this effort in their games they should at least not advertise it. I'd be happy with a linear adventure TWD...

CTP


This.

I was excited for episodes 2 and 3. Now, i don't know if i could be even bothered to start episode 4 because i know that my choices don't matter.

There's no use on having something different happen if everything will be exactly the same 10 minutes later.

"Oh, boo hoo ________ just zombified and i had to kill them, i'm so sad.. oh, are those supplies over there? what was i doing again? who's that on the floor dead over there?"

The only character that has even seemed slightly depressed by deaths that happened in episode 3 is obviously kenny. And even he improves after a few minutes, 2 hours later he's fine and cheerful again and inviting new people into the group.

I honestly feel that the choices you could make in resident evil 3 had more of an impact on the gameplay than the choices have had so far in TWD, a game which was advertised for that exact point.

By now, the choices won't even matter. Kenny will be dead in the next episode and it won't even matter where you choose to go with clementine, you'll still end up in the same place.

It doesn't even make a difference on how many supplies you've collected so far. A tiny mention of clementine being upset in the start of episode 3 over the part where you raid the car, and that's it.

Also, it even reminds you how much your choices are supposed to matter at the start of every episode. Here we are 3 episodes later and lee still doesn't seem to be really phased by what's happened. He's barely any different now than he is at the very start of the game.

The choices barely effect anything. You don't go anywhere new if you pick a certain option (which i understand is a lot on the developers and i wasn't really expecting to go anywhere), but you also barely have any different character personalities around you. Unless you choose exactly the right options, the characters will still either just hate you or be just okay with you.


Finally, my last reason for disliking this episode is the way that the characters are just dealt with compared to the last 2 seasons. I'm not dissapointed because my "favourite" characters are dead, i'm dissapointed because they were all disposed of in the same episode, minutes apart from each other and all of them happened very quickly. Maybe if there was a gut-wrenching scene where lee says goodbye to doug/carley as they slowly die. Instead it's a scene that lasts for a few minutes where you spend more time being annoyed at lilly than you do seeing the actual death or mourning over it. A few minutes later it's like lee has forgotten about it.

[Marleysativa]

Are you fucking serious? Almost everyone dies in Episode 3, no matter what. Carley/Doug, Duck, Katjaa, and Lilly has the choice to be thrown out.

I understand the point of some people that you can't control other people, but do you have any idea how frustrating it is to see your favourite character die without being able to do anything, and if you play through the game multiple times you have to see those scenes EVERY time?
:mad:

That's what I really enjoyed about this episode. It makes it clear that their writers have gotten me emotionally invested enough in these characters that their fates actually have an impact. Knowing that I could be a white knight and save the people I like would take away a lot from this game. This is "The Walking Dead" after all.

I also felt like I was able to make several meaningful decisions in this episode, unlike several other posters I guess. The two I appreciate the most were whether I would leave Lilly stranded after she murdered Carley (the scene that led up to this was just awesome) and choosing whether or not to shoot Duck myself. Pointing a glock at an eight year old kid as he's taking his lasts breaths right after his mother shot herself is something that I'll remember for a long time.

I feel like being able to make choices like that for Lee's character while still following the over all narrative is enough for me. I stopped complaining about the delays after episode 2 because I felt TellTale was crafting a very enjoyable story. They confirmed my feelings with this episode and can consider me a very happy customer.

[Garland7G]

Soo... at the very beginning of Ep 3 when I shot the woman to save her suffering, it didn't matter? Well perhaps it didn't matter to you - which is fair enough. And perhaps it didn't really make a real difference to the game afterwards - again, fair enough. But it mattered to me when I was playing and I know I made the right decision. In my opinion, you get as much out of the game as you put in.

this is your example of a choice that matters?

[Funatick]

TTG is just digging own grave if they are willing to do also season 2...

[Marleysativa]

this is your example of a choice that matters?

Do you let a woman die a horrible death to make it easier to loot a store or do you spare her suffering and make it harder for yourself in the short-term. It also tells you a lot about yourself/Lee's character. I'd say that matters.

[dubesor]

Do you let a woman die a horrible death to make it easier to loot a store or [...]

That's the thing tho.
1.) you still have enough time to loot enough for it to be considered getting "plenty".

2.) you lose all your looted stuff anyway shortly after so even if you did not get enough items due to your choice (which you DID either way) it doesn't matter because you lose all shortly after anyways.

People aren't arguing about lack of choices. There are plenty. People argue about such made choices having no impact on the general story.

[Funatick]

Do you let a woman die a horrible death to make it easier to loot a store or do you spare her suffering and make it harder for yourself in the short-term. It also tells you a lot about yourself/Lee's character. I'd say that matters.

what it tells about yourself or Lee's character?? From my point nothing there is not enough options for yourself and too much for getting know Lees's character:confused:

[Garland7G]

Do you let a woman die a horrible death to make it easier to loot a store or do you spare her suffering and make it harder for yourself in the short-term. It also tells you a lot about yourself/Lee's character. I'd say that matters.

maybe if you're RP'n it matters, but 5 minutes later that girl and those supplies mean nothing. Now, if you could use one of those supplies to change something later on, i would agree with you.

[LadyJ]

maybe if you're RP'n it matters, but 5 minutes later that girl and those supplies mean nothing. Now, if you could use one of those supplies to change something later on, i would agree with you.

That's exactly what I have been saying from the beginning. Let something that we do have an impact on the game if that is how you are hellbent on promoting the game.

Maybe those of us that feel this way are more results oriented people in general.

[Marleysativa]

That's the thing tho.
1.) you still have enough time to loot enough for it to be considered getting "plenty".

2.) you lose all your looted stuff anyway shortly after so even if you did not get enough items due to your choice (which you DID either way) it doesn't matter because you lose all shortly after anyways.

People aren't arguing about lack of choices. There are plenty. People argue about such made choices having no impact on the general story.

There were several that had impact, in my opinion. I've already given the examples in another post on this same page (previous page apparently :P). Then again, being able to shape Lee's character and make a few important decisions while following the overall narrative is enough for me.

maybe if you're RP'n it matters, but 5 minutes later that girl and those supplies mean nothing. Now, if you could use one of those supplies to change something later on, i would agree with you.

They still meant something, I'm also not roleplaying (what would that even matter). The supplies to a lesser extent but it's still a decision that tells you about Lee's character. So yes, it's a decision that matters. Especially since this is a CHARACTER DRIVEN game.

[WD40]

I feel that the game presents you choices that matter - to you. These choices influence your experience and how the game plays and feels for you. You WILL feel a very different game if you play as a Lee that is a complete jerk, compared to one that is compassionate and truthful. The story may remain the same but you see it in a different light, and get a different feel for the characters in it.

I, for one didn't enjoy that some characters I liked died, but it was unexpected and handled cinematically and fairly. Just because I couldn't stop it doesn't mean what I talked about prior, in the situations leading to didn't matter, I was just unable to stop it.

It says 'Your Choices Matter', not 'You Choose the Story'.

[Gman5852]

Epiosde 3 Choices do matter because they reflect on who lives and dies

uhhh. As someone that isn't complaining about how choices work, this is clearly wrong. No matter what, once episode 3 rolls around, the exact same people are dead and the exact same people are alive for all games, just how they die might be different.

And even if we ignore episode 3 doing that, only once is this quote true with Doug/Carly, the St John Brothers die from the zombies anyway.

[dubesor]

It says 'Your Choices Matter', not 'You Choose the Story'.

Wrong. It says, quote:
A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode. Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series.

How the story plays out.
Not "how you personally feel for 5 minutes". Not "how someone changes a sentence later" but "how the story plays out".

And so far, non of the choices have affected how the story played out. Neither are they lasting.

[WD40]

Wrong. It says, quote:
A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode. Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series.

How the story plays out.
Not "how you personally feel for 5 minutes". Not "how someone changes a sentence later" but "how the story plays out".

And so far, non of the choices have affected how the story played out. Neither are they lasting.

Fair enough. Even so, even with the fact that the same people live or die by Ep3, I still feel my game is vastly different from my friend's game. My interactions with different characters is quite different.

I understand that I can't just have all my characters I like live and the ones I hate die. It doesn't work like that. I understand that the choices haven't heavily changed how the story directly plays out either, but you get a completely different feel from certain characters and situations if you handle them differently.

I do agree that I'd like a little more branching in between stories, to make the experience more varied and to add a replayability factor higher than just seeing different dialogues, but the story hasn't disappointed me insofar with how my choices and actions affected the story.

[LadyJ]

Frankly, I would be satisfied if they STOPPED advertising it as being so malleable. That is what I despise. Their insistence in multiple places that the game outcome is based on your decisions. If they would shut up about it, I would feel less ripped off.

[Funatick]

Frankly, I would be satisfied if they STOPPED advertising it as being so malleable. That is what I despise. Their insistence in multiple places that the game outcome is based on your decisions. If they would shut up about it, I would feel less ripped off.

I know how you feel. But there's still 2 more episodes. So choices from ep1,2,3 still could have a lot of meaning..

[Goldrock]

people complainin about deaths are twd newbies plain and simple dont get attached to characters thats a lesson thats learned from readin the comics and from watchin the show its what sells the books and the show people will die off hell lee most likely will too eventually.

[Goldrock]

only thing choices do is change the actual storyline it doesnt change the gameplay anyways and if people cant tell the diffrence they are not payin much attention.

[Marleysativa]

Frankly, I would be satisfied if they STOPPED advertising it as being so malleable. That is what I despise. Their insistence in multiple places that the game outcome is based on your decisions. If they would shut up about it, I would feel less ripped off.

There's no need for the to stop advertising it as such. We don't even know the outcome of some of our decisions seeing as this is episode 3 of 5. We very clearly see decisions have impacts on gameplay in this very episode. How exactly do you feel ripped off?

[RoboSheriff]

only thing choices do is change the actual storyline it doesnt change the gameplay anyways and if people cant tell the diffrence they are not payin much attention.

of course it doesn't change the gameplay we would have to know how to mod the game to actually do that

[skepticalguy90]

There's no need for the to stop advertising it as such. We don't even know the outcome of some of our decisions seeing as this is episode 3 of 5. We very clearly see decisions have impacts on gameplay in this very episode. How exactly do you feel ripped off?

It's easy to say that we haven't seen all 5 episodes, but the precedent that they've set so far is that your choices don't mean jack in the long run. I don't expect that to drastically change in the next couple episodes.

[Marleysativa]

It's easy to say that we haven't seen all 5 episodes, but the precedent that they've set so far is that your choices don't mean jack in the long run. I don't expect that to drastically change in the next couple episodes.

What precedent? I've seen several of my decisions have a large impact in character development. We made several that could have large consequences later in the story. Also, how can you say our choices "don't mean jack" in the long run when there is no long run. Like I've already said, this is episode 3 of 5. I don't need gigantic and groundbreaking repercussions every 5 minutes of gameplay to feel like the decisions I've made mattered.

[LokiHavok]

Wrong. It says, quote:
A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode. Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series.

How the story plays out.
Not "how you personally feel for 5 minutes". Not "how someone changes a sentence later" but "how the story plays out".

And so far, non of the choices have affected how the story played out. Neither are they lasting.

Let's deconstruct that. The choices you make have consequence. Obviously. Now it's not said that they are story-altering or major decision that affect the narrative in a completely different way. But your choices do have consequence, it's immediate. And sometime it occurs much later.

And they do affect HOW the story plays out. As Lee, you choose what to say, and how to handle any given situation. Now just because you can make those choices doesn't mean that your choices will greatly affect the game world. They do have a consequence tho, but they don't affect the backbone of the narrative tho. Just the details.

[bazenji]

The irony? People are mad that they don't have choices because someone who is only alive because they made a fundamentally significant choice in the first episode dies and makes them feel really bad.

Good job, TTG.

[Master of Aeons]

The irony? People are mad that they don't have choices because someone who is only alive because they made a fundamentally significant choice in the first episode dies and makes them feel really bad.

Good job, TTG.

Lawyered.

[MalachXaviel]

If you're gonna defend the game, defend it for what it is, a linear narrative that plays out differently in MINOR ways depending on certain decisions. I can accept that and I still think the next two chapters will be fine but this is not a game to replay multiple times if you're expecting something fundamentally different on each play through. The only reason I played through before was for the Doug/Carley differences. I'm sure they'll come up with something else to make the different replays different but as of right now, that was the major one.

How YOU perceive Lee isn't really the variable most people are looking for in a replay. The story of the game so far is still pretty good and I think as long as some new interesting supporting characters like Doug/Carley are introduced, then it will continue to be good but this isn't really a game about choices.

Kind of reminds me of the jrpgs that gave you looping choices throughout the game for strange reasons kind of like this:

A: Fight Bad Guy
B: Go do something else

Answer B

"What's that? I didn't hear you."

A: Fight Bad Guy
B Go do something else

Answer B

"What's that? I didn't hear you."

A: Fight Bad Guy
B Go do something else

That's about how choices in the game play out and I think that's why some people are confused/upset. I think once you get past the assumption that this game is about choices, and that it's really just a good game with a good story then people will accept things like their favorite characters dying easier (so long as they still have a reason to come back to the game).

This isn't like a game or a movie, this is more like a series and not everybody has bought the next episode yet. So telling people to go play other games if you want choices is not a good way to keep the interest up so that more games like this get made.

[LokiHavok]

Games like this have been getting made for decades and will continue to be made in the far future. I doubt some backlash from players over a few character deaths are going to change that

[Ja1862]

It even has less choice than Heavy Rain.

I haven't bought since ep1, I can just watch plays on youtube as it just seems like a film, glad I didn't get the season pass.

[CTP]

In the end it comes down to what each individual player expects.

I could be satisfied with a linear story but the advertisement says (to me) it's not and I can expect more. But since there's nothing majorly different at the end of EP3, the advertisement is obviously BS (imho) and thus I won't buy the game. I just don't like being lied to....

If anyone else thinks the extend of choice is what they expected, fine with me. I just wish people would start raising their expectations a bit.

CTP

[Sentient Orange]

I know how you feel. But there's still 2 more episodes. So choices from ep1,2,3 still could have a lot of meaning..

There's no need for the to stop advertising it as such. We don't even know the outcome of some of our decisions seeing as this is episode 3 of 5. We very clearly see decisions have impacts on gameplay in this very episode. How exactly do you feel ripped off?


The chances of that happening seem to be almost impossible right now.

Every character who has been there since the beginning with the exception of kenny and clementine are now dead. Nothing that you told any of them or did for them matters in the slightest now. Kenny always seems to just hate you or not really care, and it sounds like to get the latter option of him not really caring you have to literally pick every single nice option with him to get him to do that.

Clementine has already lied to you and there's almost certainately no way to do anything about that.

Ben hasn't even been there the whole time and he'll probably be dead about the same time that Kenny dies.

Anything you did in the first and second chapters now have no or little significance. I could tell that all of the people who died this episode were going to die eventually, and i can definitely say that kenny is going to die in the next episode because of how unstable he is.

Helping the girl kill herself at the motor inn on the first chapter? doesn't matter because the only person still alive who even knows about that is lee, who seems to be suffering from such a bad case of amnesia that he doesn't remember the person he was starting a relationship with just died a few minutes ago.

Siding with kenny or Larry? doesn't matter, Larry died in episode 2, Lilly is gone and kenny will be dead in the next episode.

Gave people energy bars? fixed the radio? both of those don't matter because the energy bars basically dissapear after that, and carley is dead now so nobody will even care about the radio.

And the list goes on.. basically, no choices even matter if the characters never even mention what has happened.


The irony? People are mad that they don't have choices because someone who is only alive because they made a fundamentally significant choice in the first episode dies and makes them feel really bad.

Good job, TTG.


It seemed like a fundamentally different choice at the time when episode 1 was new. However now we know that it doesn't matter at all. Choosing between carley and doug barely had any significance other than a couple of different dialogue options. Depending on who you saved, both of them barely appear at all after you save them, so they don't even have any significant differences to the story or characters around them.

Now that we've played through the game, we know that choice doesn't really matter because they don't have any big impact.

[cormoran]

Well then, maybe I just remember a game from 97' for having good graphics? That story is different every time you play it and you don't know how stuff is going to go down even if you have played it before. If they could do that back then they should be able to do some kind of branching story now no? And that was FMV in addition which is a horrible tool to work with when trying to lower costs.

But anyway. What I am saying is not that TWD is a bad game or that Episode 3 is bad. I just feel that a good product should be criticized when it shows flaws and that's what I'm doing. Hailing the game as the savior of gaming really isn't going to turn out a better Episode 4, so I'm trying to help in my way.

That was the game making a few random changes at the beginning, it was forcing those differences as I explained in the first page, that has nothing to do with player choice changing the game. I think you definately remember it too fondly, I played it quite a bit and it's a great game, but it isn't the game where every choice you make throughout changes everything as you're trying to say it is.

You have every right to complain, but i'm sticking to my position that you're expecting something that modern gaming (including blade runner, since the only real choices that made any difference in that were only towards the ending) is simply incapable of producing.

[Ern]

I had to join this due to having played all 3 back to back and i do agree the choices are pretty non existent i kind of felt this in terms of ME3 saving/ killing the rachnai they are in 3 no matter what. This is paralleled to kenny surviving at the end of 3.

Now i did feel sad when the characters died and enjoyed episode 3 but i wanted to leave with Lily (i didn't realsie until after she was a comic character) so we are literally on a plot railroad (badumdish) despite being told at the beginning of every episode we are not. I would have been satisfied i had an impact on who the lone survivor of the original group was with me bar clem.

Also the trailer to 4 downright said my choice in 3 didn't matter when i told clem my plan to look for her parents when we arrive! gee thanks telltale :rolleyes: I guess in 4 now im going to be looking at any newcomers who aren't kenny or clem and assume they are going to die somewhere in the series unfortunatley.

[Androu1]

Also the trailer to 4 downright said my choice in 3 didn't matter when i told clem my plan to look for her parents when we arrive! gee thanks telltale :rolleyes: I guess in 4 now im going to be looking at any newcomers who aren't kenny or clem and assume they are going to die somewhere in the series unfortunatley.
I don't trust the previews. At all. Anything they show is possibly bullshit. I know the preview for Ep2 showed things that didn't happen at all. I ignored the preview for 3 and 4 completely because fuck them anyway.

[plaqueconspiracy]

This is not Sims. You can't control other characters' actions.

[Ern]

I don't trust the previews. At all. Anything they show is possibly bullshit. I know the preview for Ep2 showed things that didn't happen at all. I ignored the preview for 3 and 4 completely because fuck them anyway.
Fair enough i did see things in the previews that did happen they are good at keeping in surprises from the trailers just my take on it. As for the sims guy...well he just doesn't get it

[Xebioz]

That was the game making a few random changes at the beginning, it was forcing those differences as I explained in the first page, that has nothing to do with player choice changing the game. I think you definately remember it too fondly, I played it quite a bit and it's a great game, but it isn't the game where every choice you make throughout changes everything as you're trying to say it is.

You have every right to complain, but i'm sticking to my position that you're expecting something that modern gaming (including blade runner, since the only real choices that made any difference in that were only towards the ending) is simply incapable of producing.

I find it funny that a guy who cannot present any significant changes in TWD says that a game known for making different playthrough's different has "few random changes". The fact that you judge a game from 97' on the same criteria, even when one is FMV. This just enforces my opinion that you are too in love with the game to judge it with an open critical mind. Mimd you that said other game never even marketed as being about changes, was made fifteen years before and still has what I would call significant differences in gameplay and story. To judge these side by side in this category TWD loses in every respect

[TeleporterFIN]

I see many people saying that the player can't necessarily control other people, and I see their point well. But there should still be some way to save certain people, it's frustrating to see your favourite character die every single time you play through a certain part.
There could even be two modes that allow you to do certain things, kinda like Minimal and Standard UI. Only this time you could actually DECIDE who dies and who doesn't.

[Xebioz]

I see many people saying that the player can't necessarily control other people, and I see their point well. But there should still be some way to save certain people, it's frustrating to see your favourite character die every single time you play through a certain part.
There could even be two modes that allow you to do certain things, kinda like Minimal and Standard UI. Only this time you could actually DECIDE who dies and who doesn't.

For me it doesn't really matter that much who dies and who doesn't. For me the problem is that whatever you have done will lead to the exact same stuff happening. That is what's frustrating...

[dubesor]

Exactly. Let's take Doug/Carley choice again because so far it is (arguably) the choice with the biggest influence. But if you play both sides you see it really isn't. Because both essentially do and say the same stuff after the counterpart is dead in EP1.

It would be different if they made different stuff with them until they died. Like let's say if you choose Doug he died in a totally different incident at a different point in the game. Just making both do/say and even die at the same exact times in the same exact incidents makes it like you didn't influence shit. I will overexaggerate now just to make my point: it feels like when you chose one all that happened was the model of the other would be replaced. Because again: nothing unique happens. No branch anywhere.

[ShadowFlux]

Are the same people complaining about lack of concrete decisions the same complaining about release delays?

Think about how it would pan out.

Episode 1 with 1 major choice, 2 outcomes in total.
Episode 2 comes, you make a major decision for each choice in episode 1.

So now they would have to develop:

EP 2 choice 1 (Ep1 Outcome 1 + Ep1 Outcome 2)
EP 2 choice 2 (Ep1 Outcome 1 + Ep1 Outcome 2)

As the episodes go along, it'll just keep branching, and branching because you have to account for the choices made in prior episodes.

Sure, you could merge the story arc at some point, but then people will just be back onto the "choices don't really matter" bandwagon.

Hopefully I'm making it clear enough, and if not, maybe someone who does understand could explain it better.

[Xebioz]

Are the same people complaining about lack of concrete decisions the same complaining about release delays?

Think about how it would pan out.

Episode 1 with 1 major choice, 2 outcomes in total.
Episode 2 comes, you make a major decision for each choice in episode 1.

So now they would have to develop:

EP 2 choice 1 (Ep1 Outcome 1 + Ep1 Outcome 2)
EP 2 choice 2 (Ep1 Outcome 1 + Ep1 Outcome 2)

As the episodes go along, it'll just keep branching, and branching because you have to account for the choices made in prior episodes.

Sure, you could merge the story arc at some point, but then people will just be back onto the "choices don't really matter" bandwagon.

Hopefully I'm making it clear enough, and if not, maybe someone who does understand could explain it better.

I understand all that you've just said fine, but if it's impossible (which it is not believe me) then DON'T ADVERTISE IT AS A MAIN FEATURE. The fact that we had Carley/Doug with us in episode two made it atleast feel like a difference and to me that was enough. Did they have to kill that character? Nope, just minimize what they do in the future. Did they do it for dramatic effect? Probably, but if you think that was the only reason they got rid of the only character that was there because of branching you are not only naive, but ignorant.

[dubesor]

http://i.imgur.com/jlr3y.jpg

[Rhod747]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_ovhst2cmw&feature=g-upl

[Xebioz]

http://i.imgur.com/jlr3y.jpg

I don't think its like the one on the bottom, I feel that it splits up but goes back together again at episode 3.

[dubesor]

I didn't split it up because carley/doug do/say/die the nearly the exact same. Instead of carley shooting a gun doug uses a laser. That is not branching out in my book, it is barely more than just swapping the character-models. No unique things happen = no branching.

[Xebioz]

I didn't split it up because carley/doug do/say/die the nearly the exact same. Instead of carley shooting a gun doug uses a laser. That is not branching out in my book, it is barely more than just swapping the character-models. No unique things happen = no branching.

You do have minor differences though like doug's alarm system. To me the choice of Doug/Carley was at least the most "branching" one yet, which is why they ended it.

[LadyJ]

I think it is pretty obvious that some people are not going to accept the bleeding obvious. As I've stated, the game can be as linear as the company wants it to be. But STOP LYING to people to get them to buy it. Simple. There are always going to be those that don't get it...on both sides. I am done with the argument and my final statement is that TTG was deceptive in their marketing for this game. That makes me unhappy.

[Demopan]

"Hey, I have an idea! I'm going to completely disregard the story telling experience of this incredible game because people died in a zombie movie and made me mad. Now I'm going to go post a bitchy complaint on the forums providing no real arguments and no valid points."

-falcon168

Maybe you should just shut up and enjoy the game. Ever think about maybe not bitching about the things you don't like? The game is incredibly well-done and perhaps you should just enjoy the experience.

[Xebioz]

I think it is pretty obvious that some people are not going to accept the bleeding obvious. As I've stated, the game can be as linear as the company wants it to be. But STOP LYING to people to get them to buy it. Simple. There are always going to be those that don't get it...on both sides. I am done with the argument and my final statement is that TTG was deceptive in their marketing for this game. That makes me unhappy.

Agreed.

[StrawberryRainPop]

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

i feel you... i felt like my choice meant nothing....please patch it TTG? Please? :(

[Red Panda]

The game has plenty of choice! Take this thread, for example.

Carley's death, much like the games plot, seems set in stone.

Now, players get mad for both. They want to option to do some action to prevent Carley's death.

In a similar manner, they have a choice to complain or not complain about the game.

In the game, they releaze nothing will prevent her death.

In real life, nothing will change the game.

In the game, they argue, if it doesn't matter, give up.

Strangely, in real life, though nothing will change the the game TTG puts out, they still complain, though it doesn't matter.

Why the disconnect?

In the game, just like real life, you have choices, even if they don't amount to a pile of beans in the end. Complaining isn't to change anything yet so many still choose to. Whatever you do in game isn't going to save Carley.

In both instances, I say just let it go and enjoy the ride.

[Scnew]

Sounds to me like a lot of you are just upset that you can't get a happy lovey-dovey ending in The Walking Dead.

[ShadowFlux]

http://i.imgur.com/jlr3y.jpg

That's actually a very good visual to explain what I was trying to get at.
I agree with possibly splitting the story off into 2 directions and going linear in each of those 2 paths from there on out. (Middle example)

Only thing I would argue with that, is there's going to be a season 2. Are they going to continue being linear from 2 branches at the beginning of that? If so, people are going to want a major choice in season 2 as well, this leads it to being closer and closer to the first example as the seasons go along (if it goes beyond 2).
If not, you'd have to merge the story arc anyway at the end of season 2 for the beginning of season 2 to make sense. Then we're back to choices "not mattering", lol

[LadyJ]

Sounds to me like a lot of you are just upset that you can't get a happy lovey-dovey ending in The Walking Dead.

Speaking only for myself, I preferred Carly dying to having to endure some hideous exaggerated romance during a ZA. No. I don't want a happy ending. I want what was advertised or for the advertising to be modified.

[ShadowFlux]

I understand all that you've just said fine, but if it's impossible (which it is not believe me) then DON'T ADVERTISE IT AS A MAIN FEATURE. The fact that we had Carley/Doug with us in episode two made it atleast feel like a difference and to me that was enough. Did they have to kill that character? Nope, just minimize what they do in the future. Did they do it for dramatic effect? Probably, but if you think that was the only reason they got rid of the only character that was there because of branching you are not only naive, but ignorant.

They advertise the game as being tailored to your decisions (or whatever the exact wording is).
They never said you'll experience a different outcome based on your decisions (that I can recall).

(Edit) Also, even if they did mention a different outcome, there's still 2 episodes to go.

[CTP]

Maybe you should just shut up and enjoy the game. ... The game is incredibly well-done and perhaps you should just enjoy the experience.

Good for you if you think the game is "incredibly well-done" but others obviously don't share that opinion so maybe you should take your own advice.


Ever think about maybe not bitching about the things you don't like?

Says the one who bitches about those who are bitching about the game... :D

[CTP]

Sounds to me like a lot of you are just upset that you can't get a happy lovey-dovey ending in The Walking Dead.

I've read the same BS in the ME3 ending debates numerous times and I still don't understand what the point is supposed to be.

Since when does the motivation for a discussion invalidate the argumentation?

CTP

[Funatick]

The chances of that happening seem to be almost impossible right now.

Every character who has been there since the beginning with the exception of kenny and clementine are now dead. Nothing that you told any of them or did for them matters in the slightest now. Kenny always seems to just hate you or not really care, and it sounds like to get the latter option of him not really caring you have to literally pick every single nice option with him to get him to do that.

Clementine has already lied to you and there's almost certainately no way to do anything about that.

Ben hasn't even been there the whole time and he'll probably be dead about the same time that Kenny dies.

Anything you did in the first and second chapters now have no or little significance. I could tell that all of the people who died this episode were going to die eventually, and i can definitely say that kenny is going to die in the next episode because of how unstable he is.

Helping the girl kill herself at the motor inn on the first chapter? doesn't matter because the only person still alive who even knows about that is lee, who seems to be suffering from such a bad case of amnesia that he doesn't remember the person he was starting a relationship with just died a few minutes ago.

Siding with kenny or Larry? doesn't matter, Larry died in episode 2, Lilly is gone and kenny will be dead in the next episode.

Gave people energy bars? fixed the radio? both of those don't matter because the energy bars basically dissapear after that, and carley is dead now so nobody will even care about the radio.

And the list goes on.. basically, no choices even matter if the characters never even mention what has happened.



Yeah, you are right in most points but you made a lots of choices with Clem whole game til now same with Kenny and they are still there... There was also some smaller choices with Ben, brothers on farm, stealing stuff or meybe Lilly could still apear:D Of course there will be also a lots minor choices which does not matter. For example thing with energy bars I see like part of siding with Lilly of Larry. From my point of view its too soon in ep3 to story get somehow much depend on choices its right time could be in ep4 thats what I belive thats what I have to belive other way this game is scam;)

Mostly on next 2eps depends if this game will become legendary or just averege and forgotten:)

[Xebioz]

They advertise the game as being tailored to your decisions (or whatever the exact wording is).
They never said you'll experience a different outcome based on your decisions (that I can recall).

(Edit) Also, even if they did mention a different outcome, there's still 2 episodes to go.

That's not what they advertise though. I think on the last page (7) the quote word for word is there. Just go look at it.

And the thing about there being two episodes left...
Don't you think we should see branching by now if it's coming? And believe me I will remember it if it indeed comes, and I'll be the first one to pull my punches.

And to mr. "Maybe you should just shut up and enjoy the game. ... The game is incredibly well-done and perhaps you should just enjoy the experience."

If you think I don't like the game you're mistaken. The fact people like you don't understand is that without constructive criticism the product quality of any given category plummets. I don't know how much experience you have within either business administration or general economic theory, but given that idiotic response I would say little to none.

That's my two cents.

[literate77]

Okay now you're just being overly dramatic. It's just a game dude. I agree it sucks how everybody is dying and in my opinion they are replacing them with less interesting characters but that's just how it is. Nothing anyone can do about it other than play it or don't.

[Xebioz]

Okay now you're just being overly dramatic. It's just a game dude. I agree it sucks how everybody is dying and in my opinion they are replacing them with less interesting characters but that's just how it is. Nothing anyone can do about it other than play it or don't.

I understand your approach, but don't agree with it. I have no problem with a character dying or all of them for that matter. But when it comes to 'shaping your own story' I have seen little attempt at that from TT.

Now, you can either just take the product they give you and make no attempt to criticize them for the strange/untruthful marketing, or you can like me play the game, but criticise this area of it.

I'm not saying (again to those who won't listen) that it's a bad game, but simply that you should always give feedback, and giving truthful feedback is always better than just saying "OMG AWESOME, BEST GAME EVER". This is not constructive at all and doesn't help anyone.

[ShadowFlux]

That's not what they advertise though. I think on the last page (7) the quote word for word is there. Just go look at it.

I've been discussing this topic in a couple different threads, instead of just copy/pasting, I'm going to put the link of the other thread (probably should be merged?):

http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=665181#post665181

[Sandmole]

Posted this already in another related thread. Not trying to spam or anything, but I think this thread is a bit more lively and has better engagement of the issues.


I agree they over-sold the customization of the narrative more than they should have. Don’t get me wrong, this is a wonderful game overall, and TTG has done an amazing job creating a powerful, emotional story with some of the most multi-dimensional characters I’ve ever seen in a video game. And there are certainly a large number of choices in the game that challenge us to make profound moral decisions that affect us as players, along with the way characters react to us in dialogues; but there’s a lack of substantive consequence to any of our decisions beyond this.

Granted, I recognize that it’s very costly to a developer to create numerous story branches within a single game. Even if each episode only had one major binary choice that altered the flow of the game, you’d wind up with 32 (2^5) potential paths by the end. Depending on the severity of the consequence, that can skyrocket development costs and time.

That said, I think there are missed opportunities to create a more asymmetric, tailored experience for players without adding a lot additional work. Mind you, I’m not a developer, so I can’t say for certain how much work any particular idea would add, but not every major choice needs to reverberate throughout the entire game, and having some consequence outside of different dialogue choices would be nice. Arguably, the only real decision to date that’s had any substantial consequence was the decision between saving Doug or Carley in episode 1. Unfortunately, this is cheapened by the fact that they act as functional equivalents in the story from that point forward. Neither has much of a role in episode 2, outside of saving you near the end, and they die in the exact same place in episode 3. As devastated as I was when Carley was killed (kudos to you, TTG; you took the wind completely out of my sails—I actually had to walk away from my computer for a few minutes to compose myself), when I learned Doug shared the same fate, I felt like my experience was cheapened, because there was much less consequence to my prior choice.

I’m not sure what the added costs in terms of time or resources would have been, so I can’t attest to how feasible this is, but a nice touch would have been for Carley to have died at that point regardless, while in a Doug game to have Ben be killed instead (or maybe a choice between the two, dependent upon your actions). In a Doug game, I wouldn’t know that Ben was the traitor, and that would be fine—it’d be great, in fact, because that sort of asymmetry creates replay value and adds depth to my choices. From this point on, Ben and Doug could serve the story in a functionally synonymous way, outside of cosmetic dialogue differences, resulting in a richer, more asymmetrical experience, and very likely without onerous additions to development cost and minimizing the impact on the overall direction of the story. I don't know TTG's story going forward or their plans for Ben in driving the narrative, but this is meant to be an example of the types of additions that would be nice.

You could add little experiences like this throughout the game. Dependent upon your standing with another character, maybe a certain location or task is completely eliminated or opened up. Since a lot of my actions affect how others view me, it would be nice to have those translate into tangible impacts on the story. Or at least create minor fissures in the gameplay.

If I decide to shoot the girl at the beginning of episode 3, for example, maybe that prevents me from entering the pharmacy entirely to get any supplies, instead resulting in a frantic escape through the back alleys of Macon from the undead. And if I don’t shoot, I can take my time perusing the shelves. No long term impact, other than a frustrated Lilly when we get back to the motel, but it’s a little fissure that spices up gameplay more than it currently is. This requires developing a few extra areas and quick time events, so maybe that is asking a lot, but it would definitely add to the asymmetry of the game without dramatically altering the story.

Or if I decide to help Kenny kill Larry, maybe he steps up to save me in the barn and kills Danny, eliminating that decision entirely. Some might argue that that robs the player of a key moral moment in Lee’s development, which I won’t deny; but I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. The stories we could tell about our experiences would be that much richer if some people were never confronted with that choice at all while others were. I’d certainly want to fire my game back up and see how the story plays out knowing I might be confronted with different choices in another play through. And for something like this there are minimal development costs and no changes to the story, but it adds a greater variety to our individual experiences. Something like Lilly coming to our aid in the final fight with Andy if we help her with her father, rather than her just watching us struggle on our own is a step in the right direction, albeit a very minimal one.

I think these are the sorts of touches that are missing at the moment—decisions that add variety outside of who I can talk to and their dispositions toward me. Branching storylines and the ability to save any character we want from death—nice (and selfish) as those things might be—aren’t the goal; I think many of us just want to feel like the effects of our choices aren’t confined to dialogue possibilities. We want to know that we’re having a tangible impact on the world we experience. And though I realize a lot people struggle to conjure the patience needed to wait for the latest episode to come out—again, a testament to the excellent caliber of game you’ve created, TTG—I’m in the camp that would rather wait several extra months if it meant having a game that incorporated this type of significance into our decisions.

[Ledge_End]

If you didn't read then comics then I could see how you would be upset by episode 3... If you did (like I have) then you know this how the walking dead works... Your favorite characters are going to die!! Darrel from the show is going to bite it one day, Glenn..., everyone...The title Walking Dead doesn't refer to the zombies... WE ARE THE WALKING DEAD!!!

[Xebioz]

Posted this already in another related thread. Not trying to spam or anything, but I think this thread is a bit more lively and has better engagement of the issues.


I agree they over-sold the customization of the narrative more than they should have. Don’t get me wrong, this is a wonderful game overall, and TTG has done an amazing job creating a powerful, emotional story with some of the most multi-dimensional characters I’ve ever seen in a video game. And there are certainly a large number of choices in the game that challenge us to make profound moral decisions that affect us as players, along with the way characters react to us in dialogues; but there’s a lack of substantive consequence to any of our decisions beyond this.

Granted, I recognize that it’s very costly to a developer to create numerous story branches within a single game. Even if each episode only had one major binary choice that altered the flow of the game, you’d wind up with 32 (2^5) potential paths by the end. Depending on the severity of the consequence, that can skyrocket development costs and time.

That said, I think there are missed opportunities to create a more asymmetric, tailored experience for players without adding a lot additional work. Mind you, I’m not a developer, so I can’t say for certain how much work any particular idea would add, but not every major choice needs to reverberate throughout the entire game, and having some consequence outside of different dialogue choices would be nice. Arguably, the only real decision to date that’s had any substantial consequence was the decision between saving Doug or Carley in episode 1. Unfortunately, this is cheapened by the fact that they act as functional equivalents in the story from that point forward. Neither has much of a role in episode 2, outside of saving you near the end, and they die in the exact same place in episode 3. As devastated as I was when Carley was killed (kudos to you, TTG; you took the wind completely out of my sails—I actually had to walk away from my computer for a few minutes to compose myself), when I learned Doug shared the same fate, I felt like my experience was cheapened, because there was much less consequence to my prior choice.

I’m not sure what the added costs in terms of time or resources would have been, so I can’t attest to how feasible this is, but a nice touch would have been for Carley to have died at that point regardless, while in a Doug game to have Ben be killed instead (or maybe a choice between the two, dependent upon your actions). In a Doug game, I wouldn’t know that Ben was the traitor, and that would be fine—it’d be great, in fact, because that sort of asymmetry creates replay value and adds depth to my choices. From this point on, Ben and Doug could serve the story in a functionally synonymous way, outside of cosmetic dialogue differences, resulting in a richer, more asymmetrical experience, and very likely without onerous additions to development cost and minimizing the impact on the overall direction of the story. I don't know TTG's story going forward or their plans for Ben in driving the narrative, but this is meant to be an example of the types of additions that would be nice.

You could add little experiences like this throughout the game. Dependent upon your standing with another character, maybe a certain location or task is completely eliminated or opened up. Since a lot of my actions affect how others view me, it would be nice to have those translate into tangible impacts on the story. Or at least create minor fissures in the gameplay.

If I decide to shoot the girl at the beginning of episode 3, for example, maybe that prevents me from entering the pharmacy entirely to get any supplies, instead resulting in a frantic escape through the back alleys of Macon from the undead. And if I don’t shoot, I can take my time perusing the shelves. No long term impact, other than a frustrated Lilly when we get back to the motel, but it’s a little fissure that spices up gameplay more than it currently is. This requires developing a few extra areas and quick time events, so maybe that is asking a lot, but it would definitely add to the asymmetry of the game without dramatically altering the story.

Or if I decide to help Kenny kill Larry, maybe he steps up to save me in the barn and kills Danny, eliminating that decision entirely. Some might argue that that robs the player of a key moral moment in Lee’s development, which I won’t deny; but I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. The stories we could tell about our experiences would be that much richer if some people were never confronted with that choice at all while others were. I’d certainly want to fire my game back up and see how the story plays out knowing I might be confronted with different choices in another play through. And for something like this there are minimal development costs and no changes to the story, but it adds a greater variety to our individual experiences. Something like Lilly coming to our aid in the final fight with Andy if we help her with her father, rather than her just watching us struggle on our own is a step in the right direction, albeit a very minimal one.

I think these are the sorts of touches that are missing at the moment—decisions that add variety outside of who I can talk to and their dispositions toward me. Branching storylines and the ability to save any character we want from death—nice (and selfish) as those things might be—aren’t the goal; I think many of us just want to feel like the effects of our choices aren’t confined to dialogue possibilities. We want to know that we’re having a tangible impact on the world we experience. And though I realize a lot people struggle to conjure the patience needed to wait for the latest episode to come out—again, a testament to the excellent caliber of game you’ve created, TTG—I’m in the camp that would rather wait several extra months if it meant having a game that incorporated this type of significance into our decisions.

*Slowclap*

I could not agree more.

[EternallyBored]

*Slowclap*

I could not agree more.

Funny how everyone forgets "Shadow of Destiny" - a PS2 game. If they can give you multiple paths and interesting choices AND take you where they wanted you to go, TTG should be able to do so as well.

I don;t want to hear ,"it would cost too much." If it cost too much don;t promise it. I don;t want to hear how it can;t be done, that just means THEY can't do it, in which case don't promise what you can't deliver.

And enough with the, "you never read kirkman's..." bullsh!t line. Laziness and bad writing are laziness and bad writing. Story wise and excitement wise chapter 3 blew and was nothing but a giant fetch quest with uncharacteristic actions and too many deaths for the sake of drama. Secondly the characters in Kirkman's books are utter idiot hipsters without spines and common sense, the characters in this game have accomplished much more in the short period of time they had compared to the idiots throughout the damn series of books!

Anyway have fun trying to convince people out of believing what is as clear as day, as I said before you shall never, ever, win this argument. so continue fighting the windmill, hopefully by the time I get back you'll be at page 17. Hell why stop there, lest see if we can get it to 30 pages today fighting a war you shall never win shall we?

[_Grey_]

I'm tired of everyone complaining about Carley/Doug's death and the supposed lack of choices in the game.

Carley/Doug were most likely close to Lee, with the former even hinting at a romance. Lilly had been strained since day one, and Larry's death only served to make her more paranoid. It's fitting that she would snap and try to take control of something, because she had nothing left, and kill someone. I tried to stay neutral throughout episode 2 and decided against killing Larry and thought I had a good grasp of what was right and wrong. I made decisions that, while may not have been the best for survival, helped me keep my humanity intact. I had allies, especially in Carley, who I shared a mutual trust and bond with. Episode 3 throws all of that for a loop and Carley/Doug's death as well as Chuck's words of wisdom served as a lesson that Lee has to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. I found myself in episode 3 making more pragmatic and sometimes harsh decisions for the sake of survival. Carley's death pushed me over the edge and made me decide that whoever would try to fuck with me would get left behind.

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that? For what purpose would being a God-like character who can control every situation and save everybody he wants towards a happy ending serve? I am kind of pissed at the TV show for keeping Shane and Daryl as long as they did just because the characters were popular. Just about everybody who died in season 2 were arguably the least popular characters. At the end of Episode 3 of the game, I was left with people I had bad blood with or just flat out didn't trust. The safety is gone. This is the zombie apocalypse.

Lee foreshadowed somewhat the events and themes of episode 3 when reflecting on Hershel's farm with Kenny at the pharmacy: "You didn't have a choice. You think you do when you look back on it, but in a moment? When things are really out of control? You don't have any choice."

Especially in episode 3, we'll find that a lot of the time, the story will be driven by the plot, and that means things will be out of your control. People will die, but that doesn't mean you should take a fatalist approach to life. What's important is what you do with the situations put in front of you and the time you have with the people you're with. You will grow as a person, and in this case, things will definitely resonate with Clementine. Just because someone dies doesn't mean that everything you did with them was for nothing. This game IS about choice, but not control. In the zombie apocalypse, not everything will be driven by characters, and not everything will be fair, and it shouldn't be. Carley/Doug's death was tragic, but it was not written for pure shock value. You have to react to what happened. How mad are you? You spent three episodes building a relationship with these people and now that they're gone, what will you do? Are you willing to abandon Lilly? What does this mean for your decision-making in the future? When you find out that Ben was responsible, what do you plan to do with him? That's what matters.

My (Lee's) relationship with Carley changed me. This was someone I spent three episodes building a trust with, and who was a constant ally through all my troubles and supported me. Her death enraged me, but I wasn't mad at the game. I was mad at Lilly, I eventually got mad at Ben, but I was also mad at myself for not doing what it took to keep my loved ones safe. Don't tell me my decision to save her in episode 1 didn't matter. She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again. I decided I would be honest about my past with everyone in the group. I decided not to hide anything from Omid and Christa because I felt that would make Carley, Clementine, and even old Hershel proud. THAT'S my choice.

If you want to look at it from a technical perspective, there's no conceivable way for the story to accommodate EVERY SINGLE permutation players want. In a story that spans five episodes, things will get harder to stay coherent and Telltale is doing a commendable job with providing a compelling narrative at the same time as providing players with as much choice as they can. If players were given a free roam of the plot, the story would fall apart eventually. Take Skyrim, for example. For the most part, a player has near complete control of how they want to handle a quest, at the cost of a compelling narrative. Mass Effect also understands the need for a coherent plot and even though it gives players choice, certain things WILL happen. Just because certain outcomes are inevitable does NOT mean there is an illusion of choice. The Walking Dead has done a better job, in my opinion, in making choice matter than Mass Effect or Dragon Age. I've played several scenes over again dozens of times and the amount of difference your choices make is staggering. In no way was this created lazily, so give the writers a break.

You have a choice, and although it may not matter in the long run, it matters NOW.

She was an ally who was killed senselessly and I would from that point forward would make sure it wouldn't happen again

How are you going to make sure it doesn't happen again when there was no way for you to save Carly? Telltale is deciding who lives and dies, we have no say in it.

Carly/Doug's death was nothing but shock value. There's no lasting effect from it. You can't do anything to Ben and Lily is gone, rendering the aftermath of it completely moot. You could say it personally affects how you'll deal with situations in the future, but if this episode is any indication, you won't be able to control any future situations. So, what was the point? When you kill a character in fiction it should either - A) move the overarching plot forward B) conclude their character arc C) the death achieves something not possible in life (ex: redemption D) relates to the theme. Carly/Doug's death did none of these other than relate to the bleak theme of the Walking Dead, which really wasn't necessary given the deaths of Katja and Duck. The Carly/Doug death doesn't affect the plot other than making characters/player sad. That's it. It was a waste of two interesting characters who could have made more valuable contributions to the narrative of the game. At the very least they should have died closer to the end of the game after they became even more important to you; Carly's character arc was just picking up. This should have been saved for the game's climax; Telltale started it prematurely. A complete waste of narrative potential. Now I'm stuck with people I don't care about at all.

[Cattivo]

At the very least they should have died closer to the end of the game after they became even more important to you; Carly's character arc was just picking up. This should have been saved for the game's climax; Telltale started it prematurely. A complete waste of narrative potential. Now I'm stuck with people I don't care about at all.
Bingo for me. I expected Carley/Doug to die before the game concluded, but it would have been so much better if it had been put off till ep 4 or 5 after we had more to enjoy about the character/s. Total decrease in the enjoyment of the game without them, as there are no likable characters outside of Lee & Clem for me.

[Milosuperspesh]

other than shock value and to give lilly a reason to leave and make her future actions at woodbury logical.

and cos of the fans of carley and doug ttg killed em off in the spirit of the walking dead killing favourites off..

then it was to 'force upon' 2 new questionable characters.... who at least in the first impressions aren't 'kosher' imo..

[Wrighty]

Seems a lot of people complaining about lack of choices are angry over the fact that Lee can't save everyone or decide who lives and who dies. I think those things would be unrealistic personally.

[Xarne]

The first time I'm not looking forward to new release at all. If it comes out, I'll play, if not, I'm not bothered. Well done TTG! episode 3 ruined everthing and also appeared everything about that fake choice making.

And by ruined everything you meant, they kill Carley Im guessing

[dubesor]

Reason Episode 3 is in my opinion by far the worst so far is because there's often too little action and too much bickering, which, given the claustrophobic confines (traveling by RV and later a train) and despondency of the group, can be about as entertaining as watching mommy and daddy argue about divorce proceedings at Thanksgiving dinner.

And there are some mistakes such as Lee appearing to have the magical ability to fit a full-sized blowtorch and gas canister inside his back pocket and climb up a ladder unaided. In the real world, getting this contraption up the ladder would've been a puzzle in itself.
Zombies walk unhindered and unharmed through fire if you set the gas on fire.
The Bandits notice the missing supplies within 1 minute and raid the camp. When in reality they would have waited until night to check for the supplies.

Carley, beloved and saved by the majority of players is taken out of the story in the same way Doug does. There is nothing in the entire series you could have done or said to prevent it. This applies to all characters and their deaths.

Players are frustrated of not being able to alter anything. They do NOT (mostly) expect to always choose who lives and dies, but if the players actions don't even make the slightest difference it is no wonder the player might become frustrated. Thus far, the game is more like a movie.

[Sergiy]

Personally, I believe that with this episode "shit just got serious" the game was simply giving you a taste of what is to come, and i'm more than excited to see what it is.

Stop complaining that you could not save Carley, yeah I liked Carley too but this is The Walking Dead, people die all the time and most the time it's not up to you, you are not god and do not decide who lives and who dies.

You are only in charge for your actions, not the actions of the other characters, and your actions do matter, however they cannot "override" the actions of others, you're not more important than anyone else.

[Gman5852]

Carley, beloved and saved by the majority of players is taken out of the story in the same way Doug does. There is nothing in the entire series you could have done or said to prevent it. This applies to all characters and their deaths.

False actually, Carley and Doug both die thanks to Lilly and a gun, but that is the end of the similiarities. Carley dies by nagging Lilly into murdering her like the idiot she is, and Doug dies by saving Ben who Lilly was about to kill. Problem Carley fans?


Players are frustrated of not being able to alter anything. They do NOT (mostly) expect to always choose who lives and dies, but if the players actions don't even make the slightest difference it is no wonder the player might become frustrated. Thus far, the game is more like a movie.

But your choice did matter, Carley or Doug got to live for 2 more episodes and your group benefitted in different ways from it, just because they both eventually die does not mean they did nothing during those 2 episodes they lived.

[Xarne]

It's all ruined gaiz, everything.

[Natalie1213]

While Carley has become my favorite character in any video game, I think that TellTale accomplished what it wanted, emotional responses like this. Carley/Doug's death has affected the players so much, and that's just telling them that they're doing their job right. Their death proved many points. I just hope it wasn't so that Lilly in the game would merge with Lilly in the comics. I say keep on playing and see how the rest unfolds. The current team right now isn't the best, but who knows what will happen? Just like how we had no idea things would turn out in ep 3 the way they did.

[Luigi01080]

The choices i have made just dont feel much of a maor impact on the story thats continuing anyways. With episode 3 taking away most of the choices and sides i made, and the remaining characters arent very worth protecting besides clementine. Eventually kenny i feel will snap too since he lost everything he cared for during the middle of episode 3, ben made a stupid choice and i defended him for them against lily cause i thought it was doug cause he was defending him and acting suspicious. Chuck is decent but i dont feel he will stick around, christa and omid just dont feel as cooperative or as decent as lily, carley, or even katjaa. christa will commit suicide sometime episode 4 or 5 as seen in the trailer, guessing after omid dies or is eaten. And lee and gang will end up walking into some kind of trap trying to find clementines parents.

[Churchgonewild]

Now, ask yourselves, what other game makes a player go through an emotional journey like that?

Heavy Rain.

[IndigoHawk]

This is my first experience with The Walking Dead (haven't read the comic or watched the show). I wouldn't say this episode ruined The Walking Dead. However, episode 3 is a good stopping point. Before people counter that the stories of Lee and Clem aren't over, I agree. However, episode 3 reveals the message and narrative structure for The Walking Dead.

The world of the The Walking Dead is hopeless and human vice and virtue are irrelevant. Trust people or don't, work with them or don't, live for yourself or don't, prepare or don't ... it won't change much. In the end, you and everyone you meet will die.

In episodes 1 and 2, the mystery and hope drew me into the story. Maybe people could learn to work together and survive against the new threats. Maybe Lee was deciding to trust (or not) people and become a leader or let other people take on that role. The hope, however, was actually ignorance, both on the part of the characters and me as a player. Episode 3 educated everyone that surviving is impossible. In that regard, I respect The Walking Dead's take on a zombie apocalypse. I think it's a bold decision to declare that humanity is hopeless.

Now that I know better, I will have a hard time being suckered into caring about hopeless characters and situations. I now expect to meet new characters, make supposedly tough decisions while knowing the result, and then watch characters die. That's about as much dramatic tension as reading obituaries. The main tension left is when will people die, and will the series kill Lee, Clem, or both?

[Ern]

This it's the walking dead argument is nonsense when the game was marketed and tells you constantly the story matters for your choices.

"A tailored game experience – Live with the profound and lasting consequences of the decisions that you make in each episode. Your actions and choices will affect how your story plays out across the entire series."

The game even tells you this each episode. So it would have been nice to have doug/ carly survive for a bit longer at least just felt like a backfire to kill them the next episode i didn't want them to be gods but the shock factor of anyone dying but Clem will be reduced for episode 4. And lets be honest the gameplay elements weren't really that hard or id be stumped as i suck at point and click games.

That said the choices did matter to me personally and is reading the reasons why you save x or y , or whether you shot the girl outside the store but i recognize this doesn't make a huge difference to the story / actions. Like my "plan" of searching from clem's parents was thrown out the window in the episode 4 trailer.

It probably doesn't help that im not a fan of the comics and only watched the show so i didn't know who lily was and i tried to make her like me which was pointless if she's going off to do other things in season 3 of the TV show i assume.

[Milosuperspesh]

it not about the story changing it's how and who lee is during it..

and how 'our' actions affect clem...

[dankirk]

If the game upset you, and made you feel like your choices don't matter, and left you feeling discouraged and hopeless, then the game designers succeeded. That is the world of TWD. It is not a feel-good world. It is supposed to piss you off.

If you are playing this game with the idea that you want to "win", or to try to save the people you like, then you will be very disappointed.

[Ern]

If the game upset you, and made you feel like your choices don't matter, and left you feeling discouraged and hopeless, then the game designers succeeded. That is the world of TWD. It is not a feel-good world. It is supposed to piss you off.

If you are playing this game with the idea that you want to "win", or to try to save the people you like, then you will be very disappointed.

Well of course not but thats the thing its not really a game at all but an interactive movie. it wouldn't even bother me if the big deal at the beginning of every episode saying stuff will be affected by me. For example i would like my actions through the episode to make one of duckie, kenny, doug/ carly and katja, or ben live not just have it be kenny its stuff like that that takes me out of the game. An immersive watching experience but i could be a dick to everyone and i won't matter.

i hope im wrong and there will be nods to how especially doug/ carly and duckies death affected lee and clem in the following episodes.

[FarmerJoe]

If the game upset you, and made you feel like your choices don't matter, and left you feeling discouraged and hopeless, then the game designers succeeded. That is the world of TWD. It is not a feel-good world. It is supposed to piss you off.

If you are playing this game with the idea that you want to "win", or to try to save the people you like, then you will be very disappointed.

I've watched a few playthroughs on youtube and it's annoying and slightly depressing when reading some of the comments.

"You're making all the crap choices!!!", "F****** REWIND!, you're screwing your chances to get a good ending" and "WOW you're stupid, you need to keep everyone happy so they all like you!".

I don't think some people really get the uniqueness and beauty of this game :(

[Ern]

I've watched a few playthroughs on youtube and it's annoying and slightly depressing when reading some of the comments.

"You're making all the crap choices!!!", "F****** REWIND!, you're screwing your chances to get a good ending" and "WOW you're stupid, you need to keep everyone happy so they all like you!".

I don't think some people really get the uniqueness and beauty of this game :(

Youtube comments are always depressing. After i played the episodes i watched maximums black's play and enjoyed seeing his reactions and choices (same or different) to mine. and that he seemed as immersed as i was. hemade me smile when he 1st met lily's dad and said "ooh ima leave you for the zombies the 1st chance i get " and yet trys to save him later exactly how i felt and reacted through the game.

[FarmerJoe]

Youtube comments are always depressing. After i played the episodes i watched maximums black's play and enjoyed seeing his reactions and choices (same or different) to mine. and that he seemed as immersed as i was. hemade me smile when he 1st met lily's dad and said "ooh ima leave you for the zombies the 1st chance i get " and yet trys to save him later exactly how i felt and reacted through the game.

I have seen some of his playthrough and enjoyed it because you can see he is genuinely immersed in the story and is enjoying the game. It also made me laugh when you see the shock on his face when something big happens :D

[Master of Aeons]

Youtube comments are always depressing.

If the internet is a barrel demarked by levels of quality, Youtube is buried several yards below the bottom.

[Xarne]

YouTube comment section is hive of scum and villany.
A troll breeding ground

[QuarterPounderVlad]

Please sir, QQ MORE. It's how the fucking twd works.
DEAL WITH IT, DEATHS HAPPEN..

P.S For the dumb ones, Carley/doug Isn't coming back.

[zgamer]

Please sir, QQ MORE. It's how the fucking twd works.
DEAL WITH IT, DEATHS HAPPEN..

P.S For the dumb ones, Carley/doug Isn't coming back.

A bit too harsh but I agree.

Carley/Doug took a lethal shot (if you watch it, Carley is hit in the very center of the face and does not get back up). You think they would have left Carley on the side of the road there if she wasn't completely dead? Sorry, but she and Doug will not come back. Plus, it would be against the tone of TWD universe.

[Ern]

A bit too harsh but I agree.

Carley/Doug took a lethal shot (if you watch it, Carley is hit in the very center of the face and does not get back up). You think they would have left Carley on the side of the road there if she wasn't completely dead? Sorry, but she and Doug will not come back. Plus, it would be against the tone of TWD universe.

For the record i was amazed that people wanted them back it would bother me way more if this did happen (which it won't). No more dream deaths though please.

edit : And yes farmer joe that's what i like about this forum people genuinely like the story even if some like myself are disappointed about the lack of options. People even like Lily somehow and justify it pretty well to be fair.

[Xarne]

A bit too harsh but I agree.

Carley/Doug took a lethal shot (if you watch it, Carley is hit in the very center of the face and does not get back up). You think they would have left Carley on the side of the road there if she wasn't completely dead? Sorry, but she and Doug will not come back. Plus, it would be against the tone of TWD universe.

ZGamer Im not sure if you're aware of this but people get shot in the head all the time and live to tell about it. Didnt you know? Its on the internet!
/sarcasm

But seriously, there are like 5-6 threads vehemently defending the possibility of her being alive, half a day later with a bullet in her head.

[zgamer]

ZGamer Im not sure if you're aware of this but people get shot in the head all the time and live to tell about it. Didnt you know? Its on the internet!
/sarcasm

But seriously, there are like 5-6 threads vehemently defending the possibility of her being alive, half a day later with a bullet in her head.

I know that, but the way that it shot her left me to have little doubt. Right in the center, practically through the eye. At that close of a range, it doesn't seem likely to me that it stopped somewhere before or missed the brain.

Plus again, if there was even a hint at Carley being alive, why would they just leave her on the side of the road? I am sure they would have checked her pulse or made sure she was still breathing even if they were "rushed." Heck, they would have put her back in the RV so they could check.

[Milosuperspesh]

the world is not enough's renard

just sayin ;)


personally to have carley/doug/duck/katjaa retconned would make the game stupid and reduce the impact of choices..

[superboy2011]

Guys think of it this way
You can have a really bad accident and die...
But someone has the choice to save you though even if he does you'll die 3 months later.
Does that mean him saving you or not saving you is not important since you die anyway
Hell,we'll all die eventually why should we bother to learn survival?
Plus the romantic approach that saving carley gives you doesn't come with saving doug unless your gay and later on when you find out that ben did it you'll feel a bit bad since lilly was right...

[LauriNicole]

(Ah what the crap. It wasn't intentional for my post to be similar to superboy2011's.)
Umm... how much do you expect? With what a lot of people are expecting it would just be silly.

It's just like in the real word: Your choices matter, but you can't control everything. Some people are going to die and you just cannot prevent that. Sure, you may as well not be kind or giving to others because they could die in a car accident an hour from now, but wouldn't you rather enjoy the time you have instead of sulking about something that's unpreventable?
"Live for today, because yesterday is gone and tomorrow may never come."

[Platinumb]

It's not about the journey; it's about the pit-stops of the journey.

Eventually, Lee will either have lived life a staunch realist/survivalist, an asshole, or an idealistic hopeful. You pick the how and why, but not the what.

[CarScar]

Why was this necro'd? Also I really loved the reactions to Carley's death. So hilarious.

[JordyLicht]

Jesus christ, how pathetic do you have to be to post a thread entitled "SEASON 3 RUINED EVERYTHING!"...
First of all, it's all a matter of personal taste. So next time put "I think" or "I find" in front of the title. There's no absolute truth to your opinion. I enjoyed every minute of this game, including season 3. If you think you can write a better story, go for it. Let us know when it's ready and we'll give you some feedback.
You didn't like the game? Tough titties... Uninstall it and go on with your life.
Darkness, gloom, doom, unexpected surprises... all these things are synonymous with The Walking Dead. Ofcourse things will happen that you don't want happening.. that's the whole idea!

[IAmTheLastOmegaManOnEarth]

[QUOTE=falcon168;662947]Lee won't die no matter what happens of course.



lol

[Mornai]

Jesus christ, how pathetic do you have to be to post a thread entitled "SEASON 3 RUINED EVERYTHING!"...
First of all, it's all a matter of personal taste. So next time put "I think" or "I find" in front of the title. There's no absolute truth to your opinion. I enjoyed every minute of this game, including season 3.

Whew, good thing he said episode 3 then, right? Right? okay...

It's not about the journey; it's about the pit-stops of the journey.

Eventually, Lee will either have lived life a staunch realist/survivalist, an asshole, or an idealistic hopeful. You pick the how and why, but not the what.

Exactly my thoughts, friend.

[J_Scheff]

I don't even care about anybody's life in the game by now. Lee won't die no matter what happens of course.

Good Call. LOL