[Spoilers - Ep. 3] In defence of Ben

[Googolplexbyte]

Wasn't Ben just preventing the inevitable? Like Eagle hair is paraphrase as having said, "the second the dairy farm stopped bandits would get us instead".

If not for Ben, the bandits would've got us right at the end of ep. 2. Sure the secrecy was fucking stupid, but lee's no one to judge others for secrecy.

It's completely Lilly's fault really, if she hadn't started a gun fight with an army of bandits attracting an army of dead, everyone could got out of there at there own pace. Plus stealing's hardly punishable by death, she'd gone crazy. Was she still nuts later in the comic?

Also it was kind of inevitable doug/carley would've died they'd taken a bit of a backseat in the story.

And honestly what other choice was there, it was probably a deal made at gunpoint considering bandits and all. Plus we raided the entire pharmacy and it was time to leave any way.

Plus even if I were wrong in my opinion, the game should still have the decency to let me show it in game rather than forcing me to be an ass to Ben.

[Viser]

Ben is like, the new Larry or something.

I agree with you, don't think he deserves all the hate he's getting... I am making him my new bro, since Doug sacrificed himself for Ben, and I actually think he has a lot of potential if he listens to Lee, I hope he sticks around and doesn't let me down. He seems to have a good nature, for me at least.

[SteveTheBlocks]

Yeah, I know how you feel, i made a poll earlier.

"Can we really kill Ben?

I did it because of the thread "Kill Ben Project", Personally it's a stupid project, you're killing a scared kid that was defended by Carley, she and Doug died protecting Ben.

It's a game, I know that, but the people who really like Carley and had a connection with her think she's the only human being here, they're willing to Kill Ben over her death.

I personally had a connection with Doug rather than Carley, at first i blamed Ben, but after thinking about it, It was mostly Lilly's fault, she didn't wanna leave the motel, she got pissed over stolen meds, she wanted to kill whoever took the supplies.

I hope if there's an option to save or leave Ben, the majority of the people would help Ben instead of leave him, otherwise i'm losing faith within the people who tried to do good.

[JCMcAdams84]

Plus even if I were wrong in my opinion, the game should still have the decency to let me show it in game rather than forcing me to be an ass to Ben.

I'm with you on this, in my Carley play I don't want to be "nice" to him anyway but on my Doug play I want to, but you can't. No matter what option you pick it comes off as being negative.

[Redundant]

To be honest. I always thought someone more important was going to be the one stealing the goods. You know someone stepping up to the plate. Knowing that the bandits could attack and people could die. This way they keep the bandits happy and everyone safe. I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't go through a few people's head.

But to be honest it was pretty obvious that Ben was the one that was stealing. I just kinda hope they would give a better reason than "They said they had one of my classmates." If they went along the story line of he did it for the group to keep them safe.

Ben isn't the strongest of characters and i'm pretty sure he feels kinda useless. So that could've been his attempt at helping the group I guess. I probably would've had more respect for him if he did something like that.

[Acadias]

I'll just post what I had in the other thread.


He pretty much is the cause of all this but in the end I just can't find myself to hate Ben, Hes young and stupid.

That doesn't mean I'll trust him I'll always know what he did and have a suspicion of him but in the end I'll save him if I had to.

While Ben did make a deal with the Bandits he didn't do so to hurt the group and the one who who killed Carly/Doug was Lilly. Ducks and Katjas blood though is on his hands and if Kenny ever finds out hes a dead man.

So while I don't hate Ben hes not someone I'll give any important jobs to and will be stuck to the worst jobs and is not to be trusted until he redeems himself.

[Xarne]

His redemption will begin promptly at the beginning of Ep or as soon as I can get Kenny's ear

[Viser]

I really hope they don't pull a "now that he's redeemed, he dies lolwut" on Ben, just like they did with most characters that were hated, that would kinda suck =\

[JCMcAdams84]

His redemption will begin promptly at the beginning of Ep or as soon as I can get Kenny's ear

Only if they let you tell him, which I'm thinking they wont.

[Xarne]

I dont want go through 2 more episodes of his whimpering, TTG needs to give him a 'Duck Ep3 makeover' and get this guy on the ball already. Dude is like the biggest guy in the group...scared of Lily. Well, all obstacles are cleared champ, please get out there and...do something in Ep 4... besides throwing all our lives into danger again. And staring at me.

[Xarne]

Only if they let you tell him, which I'm thinking they wont.

Good lord man, next thing you'll be telling me he's the last survivor of Ep5.
If he gets away with the death of one group member and indirect death of Kenny's entire family scott free....I will be very /sadface

[Viser]

But c'mon, his fear of Lilly is understandable. If you talk to everyone, you can see that although people don't really say it, they don't think Lilly is well, and it's clear that she could snap at any moment. And he was right to be scared, when she thought he was the one who had the deal with the bandits, she wanted to kick him out of the group, and when people were against that, you know what happened. Carley gets shot in the face because her defending Ben looks suspicious to Lilly, or Doug gets shot in the head because he pulls Ben out of Lilly's way.

[Christoaster]

If Ben told everyone about the deal everything would go smoothly :

Ben would tell the group about the deal and everyone can discuss about it casually. The group as a whole should keep the deal going while finding out a plan. That plan should be fix the RV gather all of the goods into the RV and then escape. Hopefully Lilly wouldn't be a bitch about it and just leave. Then they just escape into the Van cutting off the Deal with the bandits, and be done with them.

Things would've gone a lot more smoothly if Ben told everyone about the deal. Anyways how is it Lilly's fault? Sure she shot the bandit but who knows she could've saved one of the survivors lives. Those bandits are crazy and coudl've shot any time. If anything I think Lilly helped, since there would be gunfire anyways.

[Xarne]

. Those bandits are crazy and coudl've shot any time. .
Not to mention they dont like no hash!

[Red Panda]

If not for Ben, the bandits would've got us right at the end of ep. 2. Sure the secrecy was fucking stupid, but lee's no one to judge others for secrecy.


That's a bad comparison. Lee's murdering someone has less an immediate impact on their lives then ciphering supplies secretly. Like Lilly said, one might get sick and with no medicine they could die. Telling or not telling about a murder conviction isn't really going to change the day to living situation.

[JCMcAdams84]

Good lord man, next thing you'll be telling me he's the last survivor of Ep5.
If he gets away with the death of one group member and indirect death of Kenny's entire family scott free....I will be very /sadface

Sadly, Ben is that type of guy who tends to make it to the end but causes many people's deaths.

That or completely redeem himself before he dies horrifically saving everyone.

I'm hoping for the latter, or some other non-typical option. We'll see how creative the writers are.

[Viser]

I can't really see Ben making it to the end, even though I kinda want him to. I can definitely see Kenny though, don't know why, but Kenny looks like the kind of guy that has to take a lot of shit through the zombie apocalypse but lasts longer than most people.

[skepticalguy90]

I can't really see Ben making it to the end, even though I kinda want him to. I can definitely see Kenny though, don't know why, but Kenny looks like the kind of guy that has to take a lot of shit through the zombie apocalypse but lasts longer than most people.

I could definitely see Kenny pulling a C.J. from the Dawn of the dead. He's got nothing left to live for and sacrifices himself for the group. I don't think Ben makes it to the end of the season.

[Xarne]

I can't really see Ben making it to the end, even though I kinda want him to. I can definitely see Kenny though, don't know why, but Kenny looks like the kind of guy that has to take a lot of shit through the zombie apocalypse but lasts longer than most people.

Kenny's fire is gone - my conflicts with him up to this point, while I didnt agree with all of them, I could see his point of view (the defense of his family). I'm worried he's gonna be a shell of a man now - or worse, lose it and endanger the rest of us somehow

[DreadMagus]

I don't think he's got the fire to be a danger.

[Xarne]

I don't think he's got the fire to be a danger.

like one night just wake up 'eff this' opens the gates and walks out to meet death, while walkers pour in

Or shoots himself on watch, ringing the dinner bell for walkers
that kinda stuff

[DreadMagus]

Yeah, but even that requires a certain level of emotion, negative as it is.

I don't think he's anything but an automaton at this point. The man is in shock, plain and simple.

...now after something brings him out of it... no way to tell.

[Googolplexbyte]

Only if they let you tell him, which I'm thinking they wont.

Considering Lee is like "Don't you fucking dare tell Kenny what you did!" I doubt Lee is want to do the telling either.

[jaybreezy]

Whether or not he had good intentions his actions led to the death of Carley (in my game), Katjaa, and Duck. He should have come to us with his plan instead of just doing it. If Kenny finds out and wants to kill Ben I will not get in his way.

[Googolplexbyte]

If Ben told everyone about the deal everything would go smoothly :

Ben would tell the group about the deal and everyone can discuss about it casually. The group as a whole should keep the deal going while finding out a plan. That plan should be fix the RV gather all of the goods into the RV and then escape. Hopefully Lilly wouldn't be a bitch about it and just leave. Then they just escape into the Van cutting off the Deal with the bandits, and be done with them.

Things would've gone a lot more smoothly if Ben told everyone about the deal. Anyways how is it Lilly's fault? Sure she shot the bandit but who knows she could've saved one of the survivors lives. Those bandits are crazy and coudl've shot any time. If anything I think Lilly helped, since there would be gunfire anyways.

I really don't get that, you really think Lilly would've let Ben off that lightly? She wanted to get rid of Ben from the beginning, he steps out of line, and she's definitely not gonna let him stay.

She was adamant in staying at the motel, Ben's bandit deal makes that basically impossible, that alongside the fact that kicking Ben out = Death + the fact Lilly's on edge from losing the only thing she has left, her dad, means there's no way she wouldn't kill Ben, she tried on the RV.

But here's the thing I really don't get, those of you who hate Ben because you lost Carley, why don't you hate Lilly not Ben? Lilly despised Carley, she basically shot Carley based on that one sassy comment. Also Carley was protecting Ben, she dies doing that and you aren't going to honour that, your going to defy Carley's wish to protect Ben. How do you look at the situation of Lilly vs. Ben by Carley, and then when she dies you side with her opponent not who she was defending? seriously WTH? Same goes for Doug too, but more on the side of Doug defending than being hated.

In the words of the great ChaoticMonki, Cry ~ "Ben, Doug gave his Life for you, that means your his replacement"

[Xarne]

But here's the thing I really don't get, those of you who hate Ben because you lost Carley, why don't you hate Lilly not Ben?

You just dont get it. Ben isnt hated because of the death of Carley. He is hated because of the ripple effect he caused by not being open with the group that caused the death of 3 group members. It's clear you dont see this, but that's exactly how Ep 3 went down. And btw, I chose Doug, so it's not the loss of my e-girlfriend if that's what you're thinking :), it's about Ben putting unnecessarily everyone at risk. Being honest up front would have prevented all of this.

There is something in your thinking about Lily that clouds you from seeing this I think.

[jaybreezy]

But here's the thing I really don't get, those of you who hate Ben because you lost Carley, why don't you hate Lilly not Ben? Lilly despised Carley, she basically shot Carley based on that one sassy comment. Also Carley was protecting Ben, she dies doing that and you aren't going to honour that, your going to defy Carley's wish to protect Ben. How do you look at the situation of Lilly vs. Ben by Carley, and then when she dies you side with her opponent not who she was defending? seriously WTH? Same goes for Doug too, but more on the side of Doug defending than being hated.

In the words of the great ChaoticMonki, Cry ~ "Ben, Doug gave his Life for you, that means your his replacement"

Maybe because if Ben hadn't been stealing to begin with then Carley would be alive. I'm sure Carley didn't even know that Ben was stealing and was sticking up for him based upon the "innocent until proven guilty" approach. Fact: If Ben doesn't do what he did, or comes to the group with his plan then none of what went down, goes down. Ben IS the reason that the group lost three people. I hope Kenny rips his head off.

[DreadMagus]

See, Lilly had it right.

If you're part of a group, and someone else steals from that group, especially stuff that might keep a member of that group alive. It's like they're killing the group.

If you're part of a group, he's stealing from YOU.

Are you really going to let that slide?

If it were me, I'd have Sparta-Kicked his ass into a horde.

[jaybreezy]

There is something in your thinking about Lily that clouds you from seeing this I think.

Maybe it's her E-vajayjay :)

[bazenji]

According to MOST of the group members, the bandits stopped attacking for some reason. According to Kenny, the bandits had our number and could roll in and wipe us out. According to Lee, the bandits could easily take the motel.

Guess what coincided with the bandits not attacking? That's right, Ben giving them some meds.

Here's an interesting twist in all of this. If you talk to Ben while he's on guard duty he tells you straight up, "I'm terrified of Lilly." That's why he didn't talk about it. Because he knew Lilly would kill him.

Oh, wait, that's exactly what she tries to do.

[Xarne]

Little Benny was fwightened? Awww, that's ok
Nobody is missing Duck or Kat, right Kenny?
And absolutlely nobody is missing Carely, right TTG forums?

[DreadMagus]

Carley!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

/Vader

[Cyreen]

You know, I do get it - Ben's a stupid little shit that stole supplies, dealt with bandits and caused three deaths. He's complete crap. I could understand knocking him off if he was willfully evil, However, there are waay more of "them" than "us" and killing Ben just puts mankind back another point. I think living with his guilt will be punishment enough and if not, Lee can remind him occasionally.

[Xarne]

I do agree with keeping as many humans alive as possible; so I would let Ben leave willingly (or not) but bottom line is anyone who lets fear stop him from using simple common sense cant stay in my group.
I dont accept that he couldnt muster up the courage to blurt out one sentence. If not to Lily, tell Lee, tell Kenny-tell Clem to tell Lee...no, Im sorry he cant stay. He doesnt have to die, if they give us a choice in Ep4, he's gone.

[Sisterofshane]

Maybe because if Ben hadn't been stealing to begin with then Carley would be alive. I'm sure Carley didn't even know that Ben was stealing and was sticking up for him based upon the "innocent until proven guilty" approach. Fact: If Ben doesn't do what he did, or comes to the group with his plan then none of what went down, goes down. Ben IS the reason that the group lost three people. I hope Kenny rips his head off.

Ben had been segregated from the group since the moment he arrived - the moment Lilly opened her mouth saying that he shouldn't even be there. As far as the reasons she lists against Ben in the RV (about him being the new guy, or a bandit "plant") I don't think she ever changed this toxic mindset.

Perhaps Ben would have behaved differently if he had been accepted into the group fully and had someone take him under their wing. In short, nobody trusted him, so why should he have trusted anybody else when the bandits told him that they had one of his friends? What could have possibly driven him to keep such a threat a secret, other than a belief that he was an outcast and that nobody would help him? And who perpetuated that belief?

[DreadMagus]

Nobody trusted him?

He was sitting on the RV with a rifle in Ep3.

You don't give someone you don't trust a firearm.

[Xarne]

Ben had been segregated from the group since the moment he arrived - the moment Lilly opened her mouth saying that he shouldn't even be there. As far as the reasons she lists against Ben in the RV (about him being the new guy, or a bandit "plant") I don't think she ever changed this toxic mindset.

Perhaps Ben would have behaved differently if he had been accepted into the group fully and had someone take him under their wing. In short, nobody trusted him, so why should he have trusted anybody else when the bandits told him that they had one of his friends? What could have possibly driven him to keep such a threat a secret, other than a belief that he was an outcast and that nobody would help him? And who perpetuated that belief?

heh, before I begin are you playing devil's advocate or serious?
Would you have done the same thing in his shoes?

[Sisterofshane]

heh, before I begin are you playing devil's advocate or serious?
Would you have done the same thing in his shoes?

To play the devil's advocate, you must seriously believe that your argument has some merit, or it wouldn't be worth bringing up.:D

In my honest opinion, I think Ben was in between a rock and a hard place. For one thing, he's pretty much a kid (DEFINITELY still in high school), and not much more mature than Clementine, and CERTAINLY not as mature or knowledgeable as the other adults. Next, he pretty much comes into the group with NOBODY, and with no skills/supplies to offer to "sweeten" the deal. He is relying solely on the kindness of these strangers who risked their lives to save him. What's the first impression our group gives him? That it's hostile to itself and to others, and that it's fractured and fumbling to survive. He doesn't have any time to come to any different conclusions, either, because following his arrival we immediately take a turn for the worse. Now we can add "poor judges of character" to that list above, as well as "weakened" (having just lost two adults at the St. John's Dairy. If I were Ben, I seriously wouldn't put too much stock in this group to protect me very well, let alone serve my interests (protecting a friend that I think may be in danger, for example).

[Sisterofshane]

Nobody trusted him?

He was sitting on the RV with a rifle in Ep3.

You don't give someone you don't trust a firearm.

That was pretty much Lilly's apathy. Kenny comments on that when he returns from gathering supplies. I doubt she would have ever let "the new guy, the bandit PLANT" anywhere near a gun if she had been in a better mental state. She was determined not to trust anyone at the camp, but she certainly didn't do anything to stop what happened.

[slough]

Ben's...one of my favorites. At least in the way he's written. I find him to be completely believable.

Yeah, what he did was stupid. But what would you do in his situation? You've lost your best friend (presumably) and one of the few (the only?) authority figures left from your past life before being thrust into a completely strange group. You were more than likely partially at fault for both of your friends' deaths. You don't know anybody in this new group. A bandit approaches you, says that he has one of your friends, somebody that you might be able to save... if you give some away of these new guys' medicine.

As stupid as that is, as stupid as Ben was for not realizing that it was a mistake earlier, as stupid as Ben was for not ADMITTING it sooner so things might have gone smoother... yes, I can understand his intentions and I am not angry at him. I would have done the same thing. I would put the needs of people I know above people I don't know any day, and I think it's good that Ben is the same way. I doubt that choosing the group over somebody else will be an issue in the future; it's clear by now that Ben is the last from his former group, and he really doesn't want to piss off Lee more than he already has (especially considering Lee seems to be the only person to give him the light of day). And IIRC he lived in the opposite direction of Savannah, making it even more unlikely...

Also uh the game forced you to be an ass to Ben? I've managed to be fairly civil to him, considering the circumstances. Of course Lee's gonna be pissed right now, but I think he's a little more forgiving than most (if you play a certain way). Lee just acted shocked and told Ben to shut up in my main playthrough...

[Xarne]

To play the devil's advocate, you must seriously believe that your argument has some merit, or it wouldn't be worth bringing up.:D

No, its to fight for the opposite point of view even when you know its wrong, for the sake of arguement, thats why its the Devil's advocate :)
Would you have done the same thing in his place? :)

[zapphoman]

I understand that Ben was afraid of Lilly but he could of easily gone to Lee before he even started the deal and let Lee know what was going on. Lee could've gently brought it up to the group and they could of discussed it.

I am mad that his secret inadvertently got three of my group (all of them favorites (( and yes I liked Duck before liking Duck was cool))) killed but I don't hold it against him. He was in a tough situation and he probably saved more lives than was lost. My Lee doesn't even threaten him, just asks why. My Lee is going to make him step up though. After losing Carly (snif snif) and with Kenny down in the dumps, he has to.

[NessaT]

After losing Carly (snif snif) and with Kenny down in the dumps, he has to.

Agreed. He's gotta grow up and grow a pair. Also, communication is a problem in the group - no one talks to each other. Secrets kill. :(

[Sisterofshane]

No, its to fight for the opposite point of view even when you know its wrong, for the sake of arguement, thats why its the Devil's advocate :)
Would you have done the same thing in his place? :)

To advocate is to "support" or "argue in favor of". Playing "devil's advocate" is not because you "know" or even think it's wrong - it's because you think that there is value in the argument itself. It forces you to consider the other point of view, and how it may be (in part or in whole) correct or incorrect. Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own. In this case, I don't believe we can place all of the fault with Ben, I think we should look at his actions as a mere symptom of the cause - the overwhelming lack of trust and comradery that this group has displayed.

Now, I've already said how I would have felt - and I think the logical progression of what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests, because apart from letting me stay, nobody else was going to do that for me. Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits - confiding to the group could have possibly meant that they disagreed with him, and nothing would be done. Lilly's behavior did nothing but to DISCOURAGE Ben from coming forward with first his predicament, and next with his mistake.

[Xarne]

To advocate is to "support" or "argue in favor of". Playing "devil's advocate" is not because you "know" or even think it's wrong - it's because you think that there is value in the argument itself. It forces you to consider the other point of view, and how it may be (in part or in whole) correct or incorrect. Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own. In this case, I don't believe we can place all of the fault with Ben, I think we should look at his actions as a mere symptom of the cause - the overwhelming lack of trust and comradery that this group has displayed.

Now, I've already said how I would have felt - and I think the logical progression of what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests, because apart from letting me stay, nobody else was going to do that for me. Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits - confiding to the group could have possibly meant that they disagreed with him, and nothing would be done. Lilly's behavior did nothing but to DISCOURAGE Ben from coming forward with first his predicament, and next with his mistake.

haha, it was a yes or no question: If you didnt want to answer the question thats cool- but dont dance me around :) And your definition of DA is incorrect:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/devil's+advocate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_advocate

[Sisterofshane]

haha, it was a yes or no question: If you didnt want to answer the question thats cool- but dont dance me around :) And your definition of DA is incorrect.

"The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position"

Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own.

Straight from wikipedia, with what I said underneath.

And...

"...what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests...Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits"

Don't know how I could have been any clearer than that.

[Xarne]

"The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position"

Basically, use the oppositions logic and point out the flaws in your own.

Straight from wikipedia, with what I said underneath.

And...

"...what I would have done AS Ben would be to do what served my best interests...Ben believed his best interest was in keeping his classmate safe by dealing with the bandits"

Don't know how I could have been any clearer than that.

ah, Im sorry, I meant straight answers. Not rhetoric; you sound like you're on Cspan. :) "Yes" / "No" - those are appropriate responses to a yes/no type question. That answer was as clear as shower-pane glass.

Wikipedia states:
"a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of argument."
I didnt see anything you typed as a DA in there,its weird cause this is where I went first before I asked you. Maybe there are 2 wikipedias?

Dictionary.com states:
"a person who advocates an opposing or unpopular cause for the sake of argument or to expose it to a thorough examination."

[Cyreen]

Episode 1, if you talked to Ben when he arrived, he stated he wished he could have done more. From that statement, his actions aren't all that surprising, cause and effect. He had no concept where his actions would lead and therefore lacks culpability. It's the difference between man slaughter and first degree murder.

[DreadMagus]

That only works if the rules apply... the rules go out the door when a ZA strikes.

So the rules are subjective. Some say he did no wrong, and others (like me) say he did - so he's screwed or not screwed on a case by case basis.

[Phoenix VII]

IMO, the whole first part of the episode at the motel showed why it's too dangerous and completely unacceptable to make deals behind everyone else's back. Because Ben didn't talk to the group first everyone's lives were placed in danger once Lee found the stolen supplies. The bandits were able to get inside the motel and had everyone at their mercy until Lee and Lilly took care of them. I'm also assuming Ben let those bandits in at the first place since there were no sounds of fighting when they first came in and all their previous attacks failed. And then the walkers came because they were attracted by the gunfire and bit Duck. Also, his secret deal gave the group a false sense of security since it looked like the bandit problem was over, if Ben informed the group before or immediately after making the deal the group could've debated whether to continue with the deal, prepare for further attacks, or leave as soon as the RV is ready.

The way I see it, Ben's actions led to the deaths Duck and Katjaa, the loss of whatever supplies they left at the motel at the time, and is partially responsible for Carley's/Doug's death and Lilly going crazy as well. I have no doubt that Ben acted with the best intentions but that's not enough in the ZA, and I'd have booted him off the train if that was an option (very surprised it wasn't).

[Cooperal]

The supply theif (Ben) did act out of protection, which was quite obvious as soon as you listened to what the bandits had to say. Which further makes Lillys paranoia and shot just 10x more unforgivable.

But Ben approached it the wrong way and with extremely stupid reasons. If Lee chooses to ask why, Ben mentions that the bandits told him a story that they had his friend hostage. 99% likely a lie to lure the shy, gullible kid in.

I can not think of a single reason why he didn't tell the group that he was cutting a deal which would cause the bandits to hold off. He wouldn't have even needed to mention the part about his supposed friend.

Thinking outside the box, he had plenty of time to tell it before the episode and prevent everything. Instead he let Lillys paranoia flare up. And god knows how he didn't intervene when Lee was investigating the missing supplies. Lee would've asked him about all the evidence as he moved around. Lee found the chalk. He even made all the ruckus of opening the gate and then walking back in with the brown back clutched in his hand.

Ben was sitting centered, elevated, on watch duty while this was happening. By taking the bag, Lee set the trouble in motion, and Ben was either too dim to notice or he decided that he would rather deal with a bandit attack then come clean.

Heck, as watchman, everyone was relying on him to not let bandits round up the group effortlessly. And we know how well that went.

The boy is as clever as a bag of hammers. And we have plenty of adult hands to do the heavy lifting already. Even if it wasn't for her size, which alone has saved the whole group on at least two occasions, Clem still seems vastly more capable and brave than him. Maybe smarter and less gullible too.

The fact Ben's still alive is a blatant slap in the face to anyone who believes in survival of the fittest. There is a lot of blood from the living on his hands.

[Razzak]

I like Ben and I cannot afford losing guys anymore.

[jaybreezy]

To me it doesn't matter if he felt the group was trustworthy or not. He was still let in the group even though Lilly wasn't for it. He was even given a job within the group, so obviously he was IN the group. He should have come to the group (that he's a part of) with his idea instead of just going with it.

True, he couldn't have known what his actions would lead to but it was still HIS actions that lead to the death of 3 group members. Including the only thing one of our remaining members had in the world, his family. If Kenny wants his revenge on the person who took that from him then why should I stand in his way?

[DreadMagus]

Something occurred to me this morning...

Ben's a cockroach. Easily frightened, runs at the first opportunity, and steals what it can while hiding. And seems to have no purpose other than this.

[jaybreezy]

Something occurred to me this morning...

Ben's a cockroach. Easily frightened, runs at the first opportunity, and steals what it can while hiding. And seems to have no purpose other than this.

A male cockroach probably wouldn't let it's female counterpart take the fall for something it did. I'd say Ben is lower than a cockroach lol

[Cyreen]

Heck, as watchman, everyone was relying on him to not let bandits round up the group effortlessly. And we know how well that went.

Let's put a 17-year-old kid on watch and expect him to kill human beings in cold blood. That didn't work? Let's hold him accountable for the people who died as a result.

[The_Cheshire_Cat]

I really hope they don't pull a "now that he's redeemed, he dies lolwut" on Ben, just like they did with most characters that were hated, that would kinda suck =\

I noticed that.

Whenever a character is getting hated on they either kill them or kill the folks next to them to inspire sympathy.

My guess Ben gets himself killed or in other words "punches his own ticket" for the good of the group.

Then we are all forced to love him

[Arsun97]

I think he did the right thing. I will try to make him my buddy, he doesn't deserve all the hate he gets, he was just protecting the group!

[Master of Aeons]

Ben's not a roach, he's just a typical coward. The last weakling in the Walking Dead talked to a chained up zombie and let it bite her. I think he'll get something less poetic, but no more heroic.

[DreadMagus]

Coward, Cockroach... semantics....

[Master of Aeons]

Roach implies he's a bad person, to me. Ben's not bad. He's a liability. Whether that's worse than a weasel/roach/snake is up to the individual weasel farmer/pest controller/snake wrangler.

[DreadMagus]

Well, I find I can't argue with that.

[Gratefully Dead]

I've got two files. One where Carley dies and my Lee isn't really thinking and hates Ben. He'll let him get killed at first chance since he is the reason (in his mind, mind you!) that Carley has perished and Lilly has left us.

In my other save where Doug is gone, Lee is much more calm and collected about the whole thing. He's still pissed but knows that Ben wasn't trying to harm anyone. Ben will survive (if possible) in this save I think.

No chance in the first one. My Lee threatened him and everything.

[Cooperal]

Let's put a 17-year-old kid on watch and expect him to kill human beings in cold blood. That didn't work? Let's hold him accountable for the people who died as a result.

You seem to be stretching my meaning there, smart ass. A watchman has a more important job to do before he shoots anything. He relays what he sees so that people can know to act BEFORE they have a barrell pressed at the back of their skull. Did he even manage to say something?

Seeing that everybody was rounded up in the small moments that Lee was in Lillys room, and Ben was essentially sitting right infront of Lillys door, no. A scarecrow would've served more purpose up there.

Another reason to hold him accountable? Ignoring all of the stuff Lee did right in front of him and/or still not mentioning the consequences of taking that bag. He was dealing with BANDITS! Bandits who had already attacked before they were given this new motive.

[Xarne]

Let's put a 17-year-old kid on watch and expect him to kill human beings in cold blood. That didn't work? Let's hold him accountable for the people who died as a result.

Carl is 10yrs old in the comics and kills people without a second thought when there is a clear and present danger. Humans too
Carl is not the exception, he was a normal kid, saw alot of rough stuff and was conditioned to it. Clem will become the same, hopefully not so sociopathic, but the same hardened skin to the new world around them. Point is if 10yr old can do it, then 17 yr old should be able to able to adapt as well, and faster

[Master of Aeons]

Carl was a normal kid. Ben is abnormally weak.

[DreadMagus]

Normal kid?

Carl's downright scary.

[Master of Aeons]

I said WAS. He's damn scary now.

[DreadMagus]

Oh, sorry, read that as is for some reason. >_<

[Xarne]

Carl was a normal kid. Ben is abnormally weak.

This my core problem with him and it not only makes him the weak link it makes him the biggest danger to our group, especially when it hits the fan. I tried so hard to leave him in the woods...

[Cyreen]

He relays what he sees so that people can know to act BEFORE they have a barrell pressed at the back of their skull. Did he even manage to say something?

...Ignoring all of the stuff Lee did right in front of him and/or still not mentioning the consequences of taking that bag.

You're assuming he was aware that Lee found the bag (the man has some amazing back pockets). Ben would have been expecting the bandits to pick up and wouldn't be alarmed by them approaching the motor inn. What about Kenny sitting right there in front of the gate with his gun right beside him; the guy who complained about Ben being on watch to begin with? There is a great deal of shared responsibility in everything that happened.

Carl is not the exception, he was a normal kid, saw alot of rough stuff and was conditioned to it... 17 yr old should be able to able to adapt as well, and faster

The key word in that statement is "conditioned". A younger child would adapt quicker, while Ben is a complete newbie with 17 years of adverse preconditioning.

[Xarne]

You're assuming he was aware that Lee found the bag (the man has some amazing back pockets). Ben would have been expecting the bandits to pick up and wouldn't be alarmed by them approaching the motor inn. What about Kenny sitting right there in front of the gate with his gun right beside him; the guy who complained about Ben being on watch to begin with? There is a great deal of shared responsibility in everything that happened.



The key word in that statement is "conditioned". A younger child would adapt quicker, while Ben is a complete newbie with 17 years of adverse preconditioning.

Ok lets try this another way: Everyone has adapted both old (Lee, Kenny, Lily, Carly, Larry, every other adult we've met) and young (Duck, Clem), except Ben. Ben is weak. There is no getting around it.

[Cyreen]

Ok lets try this another way: Everyone has adapted both old (Lee, Kenny, Lily, Carly, Larry, every other adult we've met) and young (Duck, Clem), except Ben. Ben is weak. There is no getting around it.

Bullshit. Shame on you, that whole statement is weak. Kenny is hanging by a thread, Lilly has snapped, Carley, Larry, Katjaa and Duck are dead, and poor little Clem hasn't wrapped her brain around shooting even a walker yet.

Sure Ben's weak. He's the product of an overbearing father and/or an overprotective mother, who hasn't learned to stand on his own feet yet, let alone adapt to a completely new reality.

[Xarne]

Bullshit. Shame on you, that whole statement is weak. Kenny is hanging by a thread, Lilly has snapped, Carley, Larry, Katjaa and Duck are dead, and poor little Clem hasn't wrapped her brain around shooting even a walker yet.

Sure Ben's weak. He's the product of an overbearing father and/or an overprotective mother, who hasn't learned to stand on his own feet yet, let alone adapt to a completely new reality.

So flawed in so many ways.
First off you're not a writer for TTG so your fanfiction of Ben and these mythical parents you just included is invalid. You know about as much about Ben as I- from the episodes so stop with the defense attorney crap.

And by adapt I mean to the new world around them: the ZA and Yes- everyone realizes the situation they're in and they're scared, but not scared like a deer in headlights to the point they cant even react like Ben.

[Cyreen]

Personal attacks, the last resort of a flawed argument. "Fanfiction"? Basic psychology. I've already addressed your post previously and have nothing new to add.

[Xarne]

Personal attacks, the last resort of a flawed argument. "Fanfiction"? Basic psychology. I've already addressed your post previously and have nothing new to add.

Sorry, but you dont get to add your own psychoanalysis of Ben and have it included into this discussion as fact. For all we know he was an abandoned orphan or some silver spoon trust-fund baby. The fact that you had to go reaching for that proves it's your argument that is flawed, not mine. And yes, thats what it's called when Fans make up unofficial and fictional facts about a character. Like that bit about the parents we never saw and he never talked about.

[Cyreen]

For all we know he was an abandoned orphan or some silver spoon trust-fund baby. The fact that you had to go reaching for that proves it's your argument that is flawed, not mine.

Obviously you didn't actually explore all the dialogue options with Ben, because he talks about his parents on the train. Blow some more hot air.

[Xarne]

Obviously you didn't actually explore all the dialogue options with Ben, because he talks about his parents on the train. Blow some more hot air.

No, I dont waste time on dead men walking. If he does speak of his parents then , I'll just have to take your word for that and apologize. So is that his new crutch then? Momma didnt hug him enough, lets love Ben more and hopefully he wont take out 50% of our team in Ep4?
Clearly we will have to agree to disagree here, I just dont understand how in a ZA, people would want that kind of weakness and stupidity in their group, he is a risk to all.

[Mr.Happy]

Basically I don't think Ben could have done it.

I know he confessed and all, but its just not plausible he could have done something that involves danger and planning. He's just too much of a coward to cut any kind of deal with the bandits. I can't imagine any kind of way the bandits could have approached him to "hash out the terms" or inform him of his friends plight at their camp. The boy would have fled, called for help etc. at the first sign of danger.

And how exactly did he even have the privacy required to hook up with bandits? Rest of the group had their 17-year old idiot wander around, let alone guard the camp unattended? Not likely, considering none of the other adults really trust him.

And even if he was actually capable of talking to the bandits, I can't imagine him having had the courage to actually steal the supplies the way he did. He at the very least would have fucked up at forging the supply books, or forgotten it entirely.

But in the end, I suppose it is more gratifying to read a story where a community can be perceived to fail because of a backstabbing weakling(who really isn't one of us), than a story where it unravels solely due to its inherent lack of solidarity or some other non-existent bullshit.

[8Bit_System]

An interesting plot twist would be to let the player decide between Ben's and Kenny's life/company in episode 4.

Ben betrayed the group and "killed" Carley/Doug (arguably even Duck and Katjaa), so many would probably choose him out of hatred, even though he would be the best material to form by your own thinking.


Kenny is believed to have a boat, which is not proven at all, and if you didn't side with him before, he won't move a finger to help you, so you'd be on your own... again.

This would be a tough choice for me, especially if they gave Ben something positive at hand before the choice.

[Googolplexbyte]

No, I dont waste time on dead men walking. If he does speak of his parents then , I'll just have to take your word for that and apologize. So is that his new crutch then? Momma didnt hug him enough, lets love Ben more and hopefully he wont take out 50% of our team in Ep4?
Clearly we will have to agree to disagree here, I just dont understand how in a ZA, people would want that kind of weakness and stupidity in their group, he is a risk to all.

No one makes any comments on Carley's shining intellect...

[RafaelBrasileiro]

An interesting plot twist would be to let the player decide between Ben's and Kenny's life/company in episode 4.

Ben betrayed the group and "killed" Carley/Doug (arguably even Duck and Katjaa), so many would probably choose him out of hatred, even though he would be the best material to form by your own thinking.


Kenny is believed to have a boat, which is not proven at all, and if you didn't side with him before, he won't move a finger to help you, so you'd be on your own... again.

This would be a tough choice for me, especially if they gave Ben something positive at hand before the choice.

if that happens I'll be very happy!
kenny in my game is my friend, after thinking a bit I would not kill Ben in cold blood, as Lilly did with Carley!
If I did that I would be like Lilly.E Carley die in vain, because she was trying to protect him from Lilly!
But if I had to choose between Ben and another character useful, I will not think 2 times.
But that part of the train in which he confesses that it was him, I threatened him!

[Googolplexbyte]

From the perspective of human beings with the power of reason let's analyse Ben's situation fully:

0). Ben was in no position to refuse the Bandit's "Offer" due to stupidity and weakness.

1). Wouldn't throwing a kid out of the group alone in the zombie apocalypse without supplies be near-certain death?

2). Lilly wished to do precisely that to Ben from the beginning didn't she?

3). Was Lilly's sole reason for wanting to be rid of Ben was that he was an outsider?

4). Given Ben's general uselessness, wouldn't Lilly want Ben dead even more so?

5). Given Lilly's mental state, wouldn't any failure on Ben's part push Lilly to the point that she'd out right kill rather than death by banishment, as evident from what did occur?

6). Due to Lilly being adamant on staying at the motel even in the face of low supplies and the coming winter, wouldn't 5). not be a certainty if Ben's failure interfere with that desire?

7). Aren't Ben's comments on his fear of Lilly evidence enough that Ben is aware of the consequences of the previously described?

8). If the previous 7 are correct then what could Ben do? Options;

A). Tell someone who wouldn't kill him or do so by siding with Lilly. Sub-options;

I). Lee, One of Lee's reactions to Ben's confession is "I could kill you"... Also there are continuities were Lee is definitely on Lilly's side.

II). Kenny, Maybe but he seems to have a very low open of Ben, calling him an invitation to "rape our women and children", as well as "fucking stupid", I'm not seeing a bond of trust there.

III). Carley, Lilly despised Carley, were Lilly to think Carley was involved she's shot her in the face without evidence, believe me I know.

IV). Doug, I think this might be the best person to confess to, but Lilly still didn't have a high opinion of him either seeing as she pointed fingers at him too, also he's dead in most continuities so yeah.

V). Anyone else, Kaatja and the kids aren't exactly in position of power to actually help Ben any.

B). Just leave in the middle of the night, Macon is nearly sapped dry, the region is full of bandits and walkers, he'd only be able to take a gun, some food and meds at most, and with no vehicle he's not gonna get to anywhere nicer. The only thing more dangerous for Ben than Lilly is the rest of the world.

C). Keep the deal going and hide it from everyone, Ben gets to live at least until he's discovered or if he's lucky something happens that means no one kills him.

D). Preemptively kill Lilly, what better way to prevent your death at Lilly's hands that to get rid of her before she gets you. Sub-options;

I). Just put a bullet in her brain consequences be damned, that would require Ben to have a fairly large pair and be risky as fuck. But if Lee and Kenny can get away with killing Larry who knows.

II). Make your position clear - Lilly leaves or Ben leaves, even if Ben had the balls to do this I get the feeling Ben would be the one to be kicked from the group. Again risky as fuck.

III). Have the Bandits do it, If Ben can make a deal for his friend's life then maybe he can for Lilly's but I don't see what Ben could give in return for it. Also can hardly get the deal off his shoulder if he has another for a group member's life.

IV). Lure her into a trap, getting Lilly eaten by zombies while Ben escapes would require more intelligence and skill than Ben possesses.

E). Fuck it all tell Lilly about the deal and take the bullet to the face, No, anyone who genuinely thinks this is an option is an unjustifiable moron or a purely selfless saint.

So, on which number lies the error in my thinking? Am I missing an option Ben could take?

9). If C). really was the only option Ben could take, then why is this his fault not the Bandits (or even Lilly's [but that's for my next post])?

[DreadMagus]

Dude, you're really wanting to protect your Bro-mance. lol

[Googolplexbyte]

Dude, you're really wanting to protect your Bro-mance. lol

Nah, I don't like Ben, I wished Lee, Carley, and Clem, could've left him with the rest of the group and been on our way. I liked Glenn and Mark too but they were very temporary characters. Also Kaatja and Duck are alright but I'm a big fan of Kenny so they're off limits. I don't like Lilly either. Larry would be okay if I wasn't Lee.

But my dislike of Ben isn't due to his deal with the bandits.

[Googolplexbyte]

eh, not really, it looks a lot bigger than it is because bullet points and spacing.

[Xarne]

Nah, I don't like Ben, I wished Lee, Carley, and Clem, could've left him with the rest of the group and been on our way. I liked Glenn and Mark too but they were very temporary characters. Also Kaatja and Duck are alright but I'm a big fan of Kenny so they're off limits. I don't like Lilly either. Larry would be okay if I wasn't Lee.

But my dislike of Ben isn't due to his deal with the bandits.

While we dont agree on Ben and the Bandits, you've clearly addressed your points (in great detail), and your stance is unwavering. good show

[Pianaman]

No, I dont waste time on dead men walking. If he does speak of his parents then , I'll just have to take your word for that and apologize. So is that his new crutch then? Momma didnt hug him enough, lets love Ben more and hopefully he wont take out 50% of our team in Ep4?
Clearly we will have to agree to disagree here, I just dont understand how in a ZA, people would want that kind of weakness and stupidity in their group, he is a risk to all.

Well, there are two ways of looking at it. If you're looking at it from the survivability standpoint, then yes, Ben's dead weight and the sooner he's gone, the better.

But consider the moral standpoint. From that standpoint, it makes perfect sense to support Ben. He's not a bad person, he's just stupid. Contrast this with Lilly, who, sure, is more of an asset to the group, but is almost completely amoral, with her being perfectly willing to leave others to die or flat-out murder someone based on paranoia (if you saved Doug) or sheer petty egotism (if you saved Carley).

Actually, speaking of Carley, part of Carley's appeal was that she was the one espousing morality when everyone else was bickering about pragmatics and supplies. She's the one that risks her life to save the survivors she doesn't even know and defends her choice when confronted by Lilly. When arguing about whether or not mercy-killing the unnamed woman in episode 3 was the right thing, Carley was the only person who even considered "couldn't you try saving her?" Not pragmatic in the slightest, but moral. She's also the only one in the group who stands up for Ben when Lilly's being a paranoid bully. That's why Carley's a good character, not because she's hot or because she has a gun.

For my own stances, I'd pick Ben over Lilly in a heartbeat. Ben might be a liability, and a large one at that, but he's not a bad person - just an idiot. Lilly, on the other hand, is pretty flagrantly a worse human being. Consider the reactions they have after their respective screw-ups. Ben shows genuine remorse and guilt. Lilly? She doesn't. She breaks down and starts trying to justify her actions, and if you show her pity she betrays you the first chance she gets. So as stated earlier, Lilly might be more "useful" to the group, but if I care about humanity I'm gonna pick the humane option.

Now, you may say that such things don't really have a place in the Zombie Apocalypse. Well, you may be right. But personally I've always considered myself to be a sentimentalist.

[Xarne]

Two very important words there: ZA and pragmatic. The two go hand in hand.
Yes, in today's world Lily is reprehensible. In a ZA, Lily is the leader you want.
She makes decisions for her group's well being; strangers are a no-no; suspect everyone-this is the right mentality for a ZA- where the humans are more dangerous than the walkers.
Ben, on the other hand, is walker food. You can see it in his eyes. You need strong people to survive the ZA; mentally even more than physically. He's weak in literally every sense of the word.
In today's world, Ben is probably that nice polite guy that minds his manners and everyone likes (or maybe doesnt even notice); in a ZA-1st wave of casualties.

[Pianaman]

In a ZA, Lily is the leader you want.
Like hell she is.

She pawns responsibilities off to others because she can't take the pressure. She refuses to lift a finger to help anyone unless it's "what can they do for me?" She sits on her ass while everyone else does the work. She betrays everyone the moment it's clear she doesn't have power anymore. She never comes up with solutions to anything, which is something that Kenny is actually capable of and demonstrates multiple times.

Lilly is a terrible leader and a terrible human being. Great character, though.

[Xarne]

...
I still pick her over Ben! :)

[DreadMagus]

She handed off the food job because Kenny was bitching. And because it's a game, to make the player do it.

That's pragmatism, why bring in unknown people who you can't feed? They might steal from you, kill you, and at the least weaken an already weak resource base.

She delegates, that's smart - one person can't do everything. Nor should they.

She didn't betray anyone, she wanted to punish a guilty party.

I can't believe I just defended Lilly like that lol

[Xarne]

Its not hard to defend her actions because they are logical; its just hard to defend her tone; demeanor

[thestalkinghead]

ben was stupid but that is no reason to kill him, that's all there is

[Pianaman]

She didn't betray anyone, she wanted to punish a guilty party.
By way of flat-out murder. And killed the person who wasn't guilty. And with Carley's case it was out of nothing more than sheer, egotistical spite. Carley told her something she didn't want to hear, and Lilly murdered her for it. And the thing is, everything Carley said was completely true.

She was never an effective leader. She just wanted the power, and when that power was denied, she showed her true colors, either by completely breaking down and begging (you choose to leave her) or by betraying the group (you choose to let her stay).

[DreadMagus]

I'm not denying that - but you have to look at things in context.

What she did was wrong, how she did it was wrong, but it wasn't a betrayal - it was an ill conceived witch hunt. Her reason was protection - but she was so far gone that the delivery was... horrible.

[Xarne]

Speaking from canon; there really was no way of quelling her. That's who she is and there's really nothing any of us could have done to change that. She is a character filled with rage.

[DreadMagus]

Its not hard to defend her actions because they are logical; its just hard to defend her tone; demeanor

Exactly.

The entire situation had gotten way out of hand.

I hate to keep saying "It's a ZA, you have to expect it" But it really is the case.

Some people adapt, some fold, some crack.

[Pianaman]

Exactly.

The entire situation had gotten way out of hand.

I hate to keep saying "It's a ZA, you have to expect it" But it really is the case.

Some people adapt, some fold, some crack.And that's why I left the psychotic bitch by the side of the road.

Actually, this is getting off-topic. This would've been better suited for the "Team Lilly" thread. Though seriously, "Team Lilly"? What is this, Twilight?

[DreadMagus]

Speaking from canon; there really was no way of quelling her. That's who she is and there's really nothing any of us could have done to change that. She is a character filled with rage.

And ironically, our actions - through Lee - may have filled her with it.

[DreadMagus]

And that's why I left the psychotic bitch by the side of the road.

Carley was my favorite NPC, Lilly was my second - and I left her without a second thought. She had gotten dangerous, despite her intentions.

Which is why I'll ghost Ben the first chance I get, unless he does something monumentally awesome for the group or at least Lee/Clem/Kenny.

[Xarne]

ben was stupid but that is no reason to kill him, that's all there is

haha took me a long while to arrive at that conclusion, but I agree
Kenny might not share those opinions
Be that as it may, he wont stay with my group a minute longer than needed.

[Pianaman]

Carley was my favorite NPC, Lilly was my second - and I left her without a second thought. She had gotten dangerous, despite her intentions.

Which is why I'll ghost Ben the first chance I get, unless he does something monumentally awesome for the group or at least Lee/Clem/Kenny.

Y'see, I'm not of the mindset of "I think I'll flat-out murder" (which is what some people on this forum have been directly saying) "leave someone for dead because they're an idiot." Sentimentalist, after all.

Story-wise, I figure that they're gonna do something with him like they did with Larry or Duck. He's not gonna get any heroics or stuff like that, but I'd be willing to bet that he gets something pretty damn personally tragic.

[DreadMagus]

I think he's dangerous, personally.

Not directly, but indirectly.

Inaction can be as lethal as direct action.

Look what happens, in game, when Lee just stands around with his thumb up his ass.

In fact, you can watch it on YouTube.

[thestalkinghead]

haha took me a long while to arrive at that conclusion, but I agree
Kenny might not share those opinions
Be that as it may, he wont stay with my group a minute longer than needed.

so were you on lilly's side during the argument in the RV? because to me it seemed like the whole idea was to convince everybody that she should kill him

[Xarne]

I think he's dangerous, personally.

Not directly, but indirectly.


This.
Whats in store for Ep4?
Clem -Dead
Christa - Dead
Chuck-Dead
Ben- "whoops...":
No sir, f-that

[Phoenix VII]

Like I said before, I'm sure Ben is a nice guy and I think he's genuinely sorry for what he caused, but that doesn't change the fact that he did in 1 week what the walkers and bandits couldn't do in 2 months and destroyed half the group. While Lilly and Kenny didn't welcome him with open arms he was still allowed into the group and even trusted him with watch duty, but Ben never trusted the group in return nor showed any loyalty. He could've warned the group when the bandits first came to him with the deal but he didn't. He could've warned the group right before the bandits strolled into the motel but he didn't. In fact, Lee and Lilly are the only reasons Ben's naivety and cowardice killed only half the group instead of all of them. It might be nice to Ben to forgive him, but I don't think it's nice to Clementine or the rest of the group to keep a proven liability around and I hope Lee and Kenny give him the boot before Ben endangers anyone else.

[Xarne]

so were you on lilly's side during the argument in the RV?

totally, in my playthrough I was the one who loaded the fresh clip and slipped it into the small of her back.
Then I said the words that triggered her rage:
"I dont like no hash!"
Next thing I knew- 'whoa- Carely/Doug, you alright?'

[Cyreen]

This.
Whats in store for Ep4?
Clem -Dead
Christa - Dead
Chuck-Dead
Ben- "whoops...":
No sir, f-that

And Episode 5... ? Not likely.

Lee and Lilly are the only reasons Ben's naivety and cowardice killed only half the group instead of all of them.

Lee and Lilly are also the reason the bandits attacked at all that day. Had Lee left the bag where he found it, the bandits would have come and gone, while the group hashed things out at the motor inn and decided what to do and maybe, just maybe, Lilly wouldn't have been so trigger happy.

[Phoenix VII]

Lee and Lilly are also the reason the bandits attacked at all that day. Had Lee left the bag where he found it, the bandits would have come and gone, while the group hashed things out at the motor inn and decided what to do and maybe, just maybe, Lilly wouldn't have been so trigger happy.Lee and Lilly didn't even know about the deal because Ben said nothing and the supplies in that bag included medicine which is too valuable to just leave for no immediate reason. They didn't even know the bandits were still an issue, the group was lulled into a false sense of security because Ben did everything behind the group's back. IMO, there's no doubt that the group would be in much better shape if Ben wasn't found in Episode 2.

[Cyreen]

The mark on the wall, bag in the grate, the bandits haven't attacked in a few days... Lee's not dumb. He figured it out quickly enough when he had to keep the bandits talking. Obviously the quantity in the bag was not the bulk of their supplies or others would have noticed the count was off.

[Phoenix VII]

The mark on the wall, bag in the grate, the bandits haven't attacked in a few days... Lee's not dumb. He figured it out quickly enough when he had to keep the bandits talking. Obviously the quantity in the bag was not the bulk of their supplies or others would have noticed the count was off.IMO, medicine is too important regardless of quantity to just leave and the bandits still wouldn't have been a problem if the watchman did his job instead of letting the bandits march right in. The motel was well-fortified and Lee's group already beat back previous attacks with no casualties. Lee retrieving the bag wouldn't have resulted in anything more than another futile bandit attack if Ben wasn't a traitor in addition to being a thief.

[Cyreen]

...wouldn't have been a problem if the watchman did his job instead of letting the bandits march right in.

Addressed in a previous post.

If the medical supplies were so important, why didn't Kenny grab the backpack of supplies when he grabbed the gun from Lilly's room and ran for the RV, tossing Lee the gun? The stupidity isn't all Ben's.

[DreadMagus]

Dude, we've known Kenny isn't the brightest since episode 1... lol

Though his is more single mindedness than apathetic stupidity.

[Phoenix VII]

Addressed in a previous post.If you mean post 56 where you said, "Let's put a 17-year-old kid on watch and expect him to kill human beings in cold blood. That didn't work? Let's hold him accountable for the people who died as a result.", then, not really. The watchman's job first and foremost is to warn people when trouble's coming and if Ben's a pacifist (which we don't know and he never implied) then he could've told them and refused the job anyway. Also, if true, IMO this just further proves that if he has a problem with something, he's just too cowardly with everyone else to muster the guts to tell them which defeats the purpose of having him in the group, especially when he has already repeatedly demonstrated that he isn't responsible or trustworthy. The guy wants to stay in the group but hardly ever behaves like he's a member of it. Anyway, I think it's just time to agree to disagree here since I feel like we're starting to go in circles, but I just don't see a point in keeping in the group a guy that's near useless at the best of times and destroys half your group at the worst of times.If the medical supplies were so important, why didn't Kenny grab the backpack of supplies when he grabbed the gun from Lilly's room and ran for the RV, tossing Lee the gun? The stupidity isn't all Ben'sNo argument there, I knew Kenny couldn't be all that bright the moment I saw Duck.

[Cyreen]

...then he could've told them and refused the job anyway.

Lilly stuck him on watch, do you really think he was going to tell her no? And no, I was referring to this post:

...Ben would have been expecting the bandits to pick up and wouldn't be alarmed by them approaching the motor inn. What about Kenny sitting right there in front of the gate with his gun right beside him; the guy who complained about Ben being on watch to begin with? There is a great deal of shared responsibility in everything that happened.

[Xarne]

Lee and Lilly are also the reason the bandits attacked at all that day..

...you mean because they rightly recovered their supplies from the stash that Ben had made the drop point with his unauthorized dealings with bandits?...
ya thats totally Lee and Liliy's fault, wtf were they thinking?

If there was no deal in the first place, the bandits wouldnt have gotten enraged when they came to the drop off and found it empty

[Cyreen]

If you read that much, you read the rest of the sentence in relation to cause and effect.

As Kenny said, "The bandits had our number weeks ago", one more day to figure things out rationally as a group would have saved some grief.

[Xarne]

But Lee getting that bag is part of the game, you cannot 'what if...' that part of the game
There's not going be be another day to figure it out, they have to deal with the current situation that Ben has directly placed them in.

[Xarne]

I cant explain why they would do a pick up in broad daylight, nor can I explain how Ben was on watch on the RV before I went into Lily's room and yet when I look out the window my whole group is at gunpoint.

[Phoenix VII]

Lilly stuck him on watch, do you really think he was going to tell her no?No, because he's a coward when dealing with the rest of the group, which is Ben's fault. Lilly's attitude is partly to blame as well but he never even tried to talk to Lee, and won't no matter how much you talk to him. I don't think he's trying to fit in at all.And no, I was referring to this post:Ah, okay. Well, Kenny was still talking to Katjaa when the bandits came in and he might've not noticed the bandits until it was too late to get to cover. Honestly, it's a bit hard for me to form an opinion on this part since one moment you're talking to Lilly and the next moment you already see everyone being held at gunpoint. I don't have a problem assigning some blame to Kenny for being too complacent, but, IMO the root cause of the problem was Ben trying to be a diplomat rather than doing his job.

[-Anna-]

I felt the same way about Ben. There are many bandits and they would have known about the motel. (The traumatised woman was able to view the motel from one of their camps.) By trading food and supplies, Ben kept the bandits from raiding the group.

But yeah, his secrecy was stupid. He should have explained the situation and let group members leave or stay. :P

[Cyreen]

No, because he's a coward when dealing with the rest of the group, which is Ben's fault. ...IMO the root cause of the problem was Ben trying to be a diplomat rather than doing his job.

He's a 17-year-old boy, without family, in a group of strangers he's known for a week, in the middle of a zombie apocalypse.

But Lee getting that bag is part of the game, you cannot 'what if...' that part of the game

My point being that there was a lot of stupidity and not all of it was Ben's.

[Googolplexbyte]

I felt the same way about Ben. There are many bandits and they would have known about the motel. (The traumatised woman was able to view the motel from one of their camps.) By trading food and supplies, Ben kept the bandits from raiding the group.

But yeah, his secrecy was stupid. He should have explained the situation and let group members leave or stay. :P

No his secrecy probably saved his life, it wasn't stupid, it was selfish, as is evident from my massive numerated post.

[Googolplexbyte]

I don't see how Lilly's actions can be justified as logical. She was logical when she said a witch hunt would be ridiculous, but she betrayed that bit of logic. Her dealing with the bandits and the situation wasn't logical, it was instinctive and emotional.

Think about it, why did she need to shoot who ever the traitor was? Because in her mindset everyone was willing to shoot her in the face as much she was them, that's not logical, that's lacking understanding of those around her, that's refusal to take the time to think about why the traitor was doing this, it wasn't logic, it was emotion.

If anything Ben was the most logical, if we grant that his actions were thought out, My big numerated post shows that a very logical path can be found to the choice Ben made. Not that getting into that mess in the first place wasn't stupid though.

Also Lilly is the one alone, and Ben is the still in the group, so from an absolutist perspective clearly Lilly did something wrong and Ben did something right.

[DreadMagus]

Or Ben did something wrong, but Lilly did something... more wrong...

[Googolplexbyte]

Or Ben did something wrong, but Lilly did something... more wrong...

I would like to refer you to word I used: Absolutist. There is no "more wrong".

But yeah point taken. Though to be honest there's not much right in a zombie apocalypse.

[DreadMagus]

Survival, and not getting the people who rely on you killed. That's pretty right. :p

[Googolplexbyte]

Those two things can be very juxtaposed.

[DreadMagus]

True.

[Phoenix VII]

He's a 17-year-old boy, without family, in a group of strangers he's known for a week, in the middle of a zombie apocalypse.Making how he behaved understandable but not tolerable, IMO. In the ZA, people either adapt, die, or latch onto a group that they indirectly destroy and Ben showed which category he was in. Maybe he'll change, maybe he'll stay the same, but I know I wouldn't gamble with half of another team to find out, especially one with Clem, Kenny, and Chuck.

[Zeruis]

We all know Ben got a mini-heart attack when Doug/Carley got shot. Hopefully he won't betray the group again in later episodes.

[Cyreen]

Maybe he'll change, maybe he'll stay the same, but I know I wouldn't gamble with half of another team to find out...

So you'd rather pull a Lilly and play judge, jury and executioner?

[Phoenix VII]

So you'd rather pull a Lilly and play judge, jury and executioner?Nah, I'd only play judge and jury and tell Ben to start walking. Maybe, I'd also give him a pep talk on teamwork in the hopes that he'll do better if he has the luck to join another group. IMO, the first priority in a ZA is the safety of the group and keeping around somebody whose performance has ranged from near uselessness to indirect destruction of half the group doesn't help that. And I wouldn't kick him out just because I'm mad at him, the kid f-ing scares me, it's only one week and he wrecked the group worse than the walkers, bandits, or the St. Johns.

[Cyreen]

Nah, I'd only play judge and jury and tell Ben to start walking.

Send him packing and you might as well shoot him. That kid's a snack pack with legs.

[DreadMagus]

He'd have a chance though, more than Carley or Doug had.

[Cyreen]

Lilly pulled the trigger, not Ben.

[DreadMagus]

He still caused the chain of events that led to that.

He might not have pulled the trigger, but he set the events in motion that led to that.

And besides, even if we overlook Carley/Doug's demise, Duck getting bitten, Kat's suicide and Lilly's exile.... he is still fully responsible for stealing from the group.

Stealing meds, which might have been needed to keep the group well or even alive.

And while I tend to question some of Lilly's rants, I agree with her 100% on the theft issue... stealing from the group, he may as well have slit someone's throat while they slept.

[jaybreezy]

He should have owned up to it instead of letting a woman take the blame. And his actions led to the deaths of 3 people. There is no "defence of Ben" in my opinion.

I really hope he is taken out sooner than later and I hope Kenny gets to do it.

[Xarne]

Bleeding hearts will be wave 1 of casualties in a ZA.
Deer in headlight types like Ben realistically wouldnt have made it this far and people who let emotions cloud their judgement simply wont be able to see a clear and present danger in Ben and how much of a liability he is to the entire group, they'll most likely die as well. Not to walkers directly, but letting irrational thinking like how 'nice' a person is as opposed to how effective or how much of a contribution he brings to the group. One person causes the death of three. Then lies about it to the point that he'll let another die (one way more valuable than him), and you bring this thing along with you to further jeopardize the lives of your remaining group?
Laughable.

[rachellouise85]

And people would want to join up with someone, likely to kill you if they decide you've outlived your usefulness?

[Xarne]

What kind of argument is that?

[RafaelBrasileiro]

I think Ben an ass for not telling anyone about the bandits, and COWARD and selfish for not confessing to Lilly while she blaming an innocent person!

[rachellouise85]

It's what it is. Why would anyone want to carry on being around someone who would turn around and shoot them without a second thought? They think someone has is a 'liability' , so kills them (or leaving them, could easily be the same thing in the ZA). That is cold blooded. Doing something without thinking of the consequences, or doing somethig in a moment of rage, is really nothing compared to that. In that case, you could be seen as the liability. When are you going to decide someone is no longer useful?

That is also pretty simple.

[Xarne]

Because no one said 'Welcome to the group Ben, please be effective or we'll kill you' so your argument kinda makes no sense.
He didnt have that looming over his head.

I'll rephrase- If a bunch of people save your ass from walkers and then bring you back to their shelter and start taking care of you like one of their own, I think the least amount of appreciation you can show is to be upfront and honest about situations you clearly cannot manage on your own.

[rachellouise85]

Yeah, he could have been honest, but he wouldn't know how things would turn out. We pretty much know how things will turn out if we leave him behind or something. He is unlikely superhero type, but doubt that he is a superhero.

[Xarne]

no, never, tell me how it sounded to you

[rachellouise85]

Bleeding hearts will be wave 1 of casualties in a ZA.
Deer in headlight types like Ben realistically wouldnt have made it this far and people who let emotions cloud their judgement simply wont be able to see a clear and present danger in Ben and how much of a liability he is to the entire group, they'll most likely die as well. Not to walkers directly, but letting irrational thinking like how 'nice' a person is as opposed to how effective or how much of a contribution he brings to the group. One person causes the death of three. Then lies about it to the point that he'll let another die (one way more valuable than him), and you bring this thing along with you to further jeopardize the lives of your remaining group?
Laughable.

Now my posts were in response to you deciding who was more valuable, who's a liability etc.

[Xarne]

I understand now. That's not so much an attack on Ben as my own personal outlook. In that post Im basically saying, if someone is really nice and dumb as rocks, you have to give serious thought "Is keeping this person around in the best interest of the survival of the group?"
From a ZA perspective, how many times can you allow for stupid? How many people is it acceptable to allow to die before you have to get rid of the problem? Apparently 3 isnt the magic number for some in here but is for me

[Xarne]

My biggest grip is that it none of this was an accident and all of it was totally avoidable.
Ben had the choice to nip this in the bud and didnt. That was a conscious decision on his part.

[Cyreen]

My biggest grip is that it none of this was an accident and all of it was totally avoidable.
Ben had the choice to nip this in the bud and didnt. That was a conscious decision on his part.

Exactly. It was avoidable, but it wasn't all Ben. He's a KID, he's been with the group a week and they slap a gun in his hands and stick him on watch. You're right, he is/was a liability and trust is earned. He hadn't earned the trust to accept the responsibilities given him. Someone should have taken him under their wing and coached him along.

[Xarne]

But, how do you teach common sense? Show him how to aim; how to detect walkers from afar; how to spot wild berries, ok
How could anyone be prepared for:
Hey Ben if you find any strangers in the woods, avoid making deal with them with our supplies. And if you must, please notify someone
lol, you see?
If you and I were in a group, I would never tell you that because wouldnt it just be assumed that if you ever spotted danger like that, you'd tell me?
Maybe it's me, maybe I'm overestimating human thought, but it seems like a no brainer

[DreadMagus]

But, how do you teach common sense?

With a shock collar.

[Xarne]

THIS IS SPARTA!

Thats my solution

[DreadMagus]

It works. :D

[Cyreen]

If you and I were in a group, I would never tell you that because wouldnt it just be assumed that if you ever spotted danger like that, you'd tell me?

You and I aren't children (at least I presume you're not). Had someone invested some time in the kid it would have bred confidence, trust and loyalty. As it was he was scared, uncertain, alienated and acted in his own best interests. Ben is a wasted asset.

[DreadMagus]

Ben was a passive zeta-male from the get-go. That doesn't exactly breed confidence in his capabilities.

I mean, his "friend" convinced him to STFU because said friend's father was special forces so that his "friend" (AKA Mr Bullet Catcher or Zombie Bait depending on choices) could "handle" it... lol

If Ben hadn't gotten a clue in the first 3 months (pre-E2) I don't think he can.

EDIT:

Of course, maybe he's the mental version of the "ugly ducking" and he's just waiting for his moment to shine... though, several moments have passed already...

[Xarne]

Ben is a wasted asset.

There we go. I finally converted you! :)
I'm never coming back!
/thread

All jokes aside, I really do understand the Ben defenders. Kicking him out is the same as death, I know this. But (in a ZA) better him than me. Like I said in another thread, Im planning on crossing the ZA finish fine and I wont be able to do that with 'Ben-types' in the group.
Who knows, we could start Ep4 with Lee doing just that: breaking it all down to Ben, and what's expected of him as a group member as they chug into Savannah

[DreadMagus]

You know, if they did do that - and Ben actually accepted the info... I think I'd be ok with him... sort of.

I mean, I blame Ben for a lot - but the whole group more or less screwed the pooch as a whole.

- Piss poor location
- No vehicle earlier
- Minimal survival inventory
- No real cooperation

[Cyreen]

There we go. I finally converted you! :)


Way to take something out of context! I wouldn't be on your team anyway Mr. Bow Chicka Wow Wow. :p

[Xarne]

Way to take something out of context! I wouldn't be on your team anyway Mr. Bow Chicka Wow Wow. :p

Yes, I totally FOXNEWS'd that post, but I'll take a victory in any shape or form :) (technically, Im not here)

[thestalkinghead]

what if the deal with the bandits that ben had made was, "you give us all the good drugs you get from the pharmacy or we kill you and your entire group" (i would say that that was the real deal anyway if you read in between the lines) would people be as mad at him?

[DreadMagus]

For not telling the group and letting THE GROUP decide how to deal with the problem?

Ayup.

[thestalkinghead]

For not telling the group and letting THE GROUP decide how to deal with the problem?

Ayup.

yeah, i sort of still blame him for not at least telling lee, but the way lilly ran things he would have been dead if they had told lilly.

death by execution or exile, that sounds like some of my history lessons

[DreadMagus]

Death or exile isn't that cruel when you consider his actions could get "you" or anyone in "your group" killed.

Especially in a world where one cut, cracked limb or zombie nip could equal a dead group member.

Death by infection or by zombie infection are very real concerns.

[thestalkinghead]

Death or exile isn't that cruel when you consider his actions could get "you" or anyone in "your group" killed.

Especially in a world where one cut, cracked limb or zombie nip could equal a dead group member.

Death by infection or by zombie infection are very real concerns.

but dont forget that ben is a victim, not a bad person

[Sisterofshane]

Death or exile isn't that cruel when you consider his actions could get "you" or anyone in "your group" killed.

Especially in a world where one cut, cracked limb or zombie nip could equal a dead group member.

Death by infection or by zombie infection are very real concerns.

Lack of oversight on children is what is going to get people killed. Even Charles thinks we are doing the wrong thing with Clementine. The Problem is that nobody wants to think of Ben as being mentally immature, despite being physically mature.

Ben has no moral compass or support from the REAL adults in the group. As a result, he flounders. What do you think would happen if we expected the same kind of responsibility from Duck or Clem? It would be just as potentially disasterous.

[DreadMagus]

Both Duck and Clem have shown far more enthusiasm and a genuine desire to help than Ben has.

Ben might as well be a garden gnome.

[thestalkinghead]

Both Duck and Clem have shown far more enthusiasm and a genuine desire to help than Ben has.

Ben might as well be a garden gnome.

he hasn't had much chance, but he was helpful on the train

[DreadMagus]

Might be decision based, in my game he moped around and was as useful as bread mold.

[thestalkinghead]

Might be decision based, in my game he moped around and was as useful as bread mold.

well he was lee's backup entering the front part and then he disposed of the body after, not much, but as i said, he hasn't had much chance to help

[DreadMagus]

I have to admit, I'll be rather pleased if TTG finds a way to redeem him.

I've always been a fan of redemption stories... I just hope it's not a cliche like redeem via heroic sacrifice.

[YamiRaziel]

Ben had been segregated from the group since the moment he arrived - the moment Lilly opened her mouth saying that he shouldn't even be there. As far as the reasons she lists against Ben in the RV (about him being the new guy, or a bandit "plant") I don't think she ever changed this toxic mindset.

Perhaps Ben would have behaved differently if he had been accepted into the group fully and had someone take him under their wing. In short, nobody trusted him, so why should he have trusted anybody else when the bandits told him that they had one of his friends? What could have possibly driven him to keep such a threat a secret, other than a belief that he was an outcast and that nobody would help him? And who perpetuated that belief?

Oh, come on ,sisterofshane, you know it's Kenny's fault! :D

So it's Lilly's fault for looking after the group? Well, you know if it wasn't for her, most of you would be dead because of the bandits.
Even if you somehow survived that you would still be left with Kenny who would betray you all in an instant just to save his or his family's skin, Ben who's a traitor and can't be trusted and Carley who's gullible enough to believe that she's helping somebody by protecting a traitor... Oh, I almost forgot.. you would have Duck as well.
You're pretty much doomed in my opinion. :D

[thestalkinghead]

Oh, come on ,sisterofshane, you know it's Kenny's fault! :D

So it's Lilly's fault for looking after the group? Well, you know if it wasn't for her, most of you would be dead because of the bandits.
Even if you somehow survived that you would still be left with Kenny who would betray you all in an instant just to save his or his family's skin, Ben who's a traitor and can't be trusted and Carley who's gullible enough to believe that she's helping somebody by protecting a traitor... Oh, I almost forgot.. you would have Duck as well.
You're pretty much doomed in my opinion. :D


how do you know that? if she had died in episode 1 and kenny was in charge they probably would have been miles away from the bandits.

there has been no evidence that she has done anything that has kept the group alive except the no hash headshot

[YamiRaziel]

well...because she saves the group from the bandits.
If she had died in ep. 1 things would be different, but she's not the type to easily die.

I don't think running around the country with the RV would've accomplished something. It has always looked like a terrible idea... and that boat... it might not even be there.

Maybe the comic book has affected me but knowing what's actually out there I would always prefer to stay in the motor inn and deal with the bandits.

[thestalkinghead]

well...because she saves the group from the bandits.
If she had died in ep. 1 things would be different, but she's not the type to easily die.

I don't think running around the country with the RV would've accomplished something. It has always looked like a terrible idea... and that boat... it might not even be there.

Maybe the comic book has affected me but knowing what's actually out there I would always prefer to stay in the motor inn and deal with the bandits.

well, i haven't read all (just the first hardback) the comics but, hasnt settling in anywhere got people killed? and how could 3 maybe 4 people deal with the massive group of bandits long term?

[YamiRaziel]

well, i haven't read all (just the first hardback) the comics but, hasnt settling in anywhere got people killed? and how could 3 maybe 4 people deal with the massive group of bandits long term?

I don't wanna spoil anything for you, but let's say that it's really, really dangerous. I would choose the devil I know, than the angel I don't.

[thestalkinghead]

I don't wanna spoil anything for you, but let's say that it's really, really dangerous. I would choose the devil I know, than the angel I don't.

humm, i guess i prefer avoiding devils and seeking out angels

[Cyreen]

well...because she saves the group from the bandits.I

Were we playing the same game? Other then Mr. Bad Ass at the start, the only bandits I saw fall, I shot. Carley covered the walkers on the left in my first play through and otherwise, the walkers were all mine too.

[Sisterofshane]

Were we playing the same game? Other then Mr. Bad Ass at the start, the only bandits I saw fall, I shot. Carley covered the walkers on the left in my first play through and otherwise, the walkers were all mine too.

Yeah, I decided that Lilly actually put us in more danger. The leader of the bandits was about to "arrange" a new deal, in which I would have given him everything he wanted, after which I would have taken what we had left and gotten the Heck out of Macon. Instead her shot put the lives of the entire group in danger, both by exposing us to the hostility of the bandits and by attracting the walkers. She didn't even hash out a quick plan with Lee to keep him aware - she sent him ambling out blindly to get himself shot with no real promise of her plan actually working. People want to say Kenny is brash? Lilly makes more bad decisions in episode three than Kenny did in episodes one and two combined! (Puts untrained and undisciplined Ben on watch, wants to continue to stay at the motor inn despite danger of the bandits attacking, keeps knowledge of medicine theft to herself, rushing in to take the offense against the bandits while they still held guns to the back of our heads, and lastly shooting @Ben/Carley without so much as bringing up any real evidence).

[fenom]

I want Ben gone, yesterday. Forget actions. I hate his hair, his face, that stupid jacket, how he stands with that thin body, his irritating b* voice, his emo personality, everything.

Clem has more balls than him. We had Clem & Duck cope with what happens and deaths around them in general better than him. Go on, stand on that train and be all emo Ben, thank you for everything you brought to this group (nothing / death).

Just punch your own card already you good for nothing crybaby.

[Master of Aeons]

I hate his hair, his face, that stupid jacket, how he stands with that thin body, his irritating b* voice, his emo personality, everything.

I ate his little face, I ate his guts and I ate the way e's always barking!

[Cyreen]

But can you do the accent?

[thestalkinghead]

I ate his little face, I ate his guts and I ate the way e's always barking!

But can you do the accent?

it reads a bit like my accent H's are not usually necessary,eg. 'ello 'ow are you, it's 'ot today in'it, can you 'ear me or what?

[Luigi01080]

well i defended him during the interrogation on the side of the road(originally thought it was doug because thats who i saved and he eagerly defended ben) and i told him i still wanted to talk to him later on the train, so bens got good standing with me right now.

[Master of Aeons]

But can you do the accent?

Aye, I can at that! I also ate the mess 'e left on my yard! Ya 'erd me!

[Cyreen]

Don't lick me.

Poor Ben, doomed to be unappreciated until he's dead. A short, sad existence.

[Sisterofshane]

Don't lick me.

Poor Ben, doomed to be unappreciated until he's dead. A short, sad existence.

Just like Larry and Duck...

[Rock114]

The way I see it, it's everyone's fault for not being able to work together. Kenny killed Larry because Larry brought a heart attack upon himself at one of the worst possible times. He knew he had a heart condition, the heart attack was completely his fault. If they weren't held captive by a group of cannibals who were planning to slaughter us for food, I don't believe he would have done that. Kenny killed Larry. No denying that it sent Lilly over the edge though.

Kenny constantly wants to leave. His talk of abandoning the group for the coast indicated he doesn't think the group will survive, which brings down everyone elses morale. The constant arguing between Lilly and Kenny further drove that line of thinking home, especially when neither one tried to coem up with a compromise. The constant attacks by bandits, along with Ben going behind our backs. If he had come forward, we could have evacuated with most of our supplies and no casualties. But blame also somewhat lies with everyone else for the deal, because he knew they would all say "no" and his friend would be killed. He had no confidence in us because it seemed that none of us wanted him there in the first place. Why would people who he thinks hate him give up supplies for his friend's life?

Lilly doesn't want to relocate. With Larry dead and the pharmacy picked clean, the only reason to stay in Macon is for the wall around the motel. The station wagon was a lucky break and that food wouldn't last forever. Certainly not enough to get through the winter I think. With the absence of supplies in town, and the only member of the group who would need a consistent supply of medicine dead, coupled with multiple attacks by a larger and more heavily armed group Macon had become far more trouble than it was worth.

Everyone messed up, which led to Lilly snapping at the side of the road. If everyone had trusted each other and worked together, I feel that the group would be far larger than it is going into Savvanah right now.

[thestalkinghead]

The way I see it, it's everyone's fault for not being able to work together. Kenny killed Larry because Larry brought a heart attack upon himself at one of the worst possible times. He knew he had a heart condition, the heart attack was completely his fault. If they weren't held captive by a group of cannibals who were planning to slaughter us for food, I don't believe he would have done that. Kenny killed Larry. No denying that it sent Lilly over the edge though.

Kenny constantly wants to leave. His talk of abandoning the group for the coast indicated he doesn't think the group will survive, which brings down everyone elses morale. The constant arguing between Lilly and Kenny further drove that line of thinking home, especially when neither one tried to coem up with a compromise. The constant attacks by bandits, along with Ben going behind our backs. If he had come forward, we could have evacuated with most of our supplies and no casualties. But blame also somewhat lies with everyone else for the deal, because he knew they would all say "no" and his friend would be killed. He had no confidence in us because it seemed that none of us wanted him there in the first place. Why would people who he thinks hate him give up supplies for his friend's life?

Lilly doesn't want to relocate. With Larry dead and the pharmacy picked clean, the only reason to stay in Macon is for the wall around the motel. The station wagon was a lucky break and that food wouldn't last forever. Certainly not enough to get through the winter I think. With the absence of supplies in town, and the only member of the group who would need a consistent supply of medicine dead, coupled with multiple attacks by a larger and more heavily armed group Macon had become far more trouble than it was worth.

Everyone messed up, which led to Lilly snapping at the side of the road. If everyone had trusted each other and worked together, I feel that the group would be far larger than it is going into Savvanah right now.

i agree, but even though kenny wanted to leave he thought splitting up the group would be suicide, he wanted everyone to come with him.
but everything else is correct i think

[Cyreen]

Just like Larry and Duck...

Okay, but... maybe not Larry. I appreciated him more dead.

[Sisterofshane]

Okay, but... maybe not Larry. I appreciated him more dead.

Oh, personally I agree. I am just relaying the sentiment that happens here on the forums.

Rawr! *Subject A* did something that really ticked me off! I can't wait for the moment I get to *insert graphic execution of choice here*.

Next Episode is realeased...

Why did *Subject A* have to die? Sure I never liked them, but I don't think they should have DIED!

:confused: