Team Fortress 2 toon shading in Season 2?

[abdallah]

Oh come on you know you want to try it out! It looks absolutely delicious, and the nonflat style of it would work much better for Sam n Max than toonshading a la Windwaker.
Here's a pdf file from Valve where they tell exactly how it's done:
www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2007/NPAR07_IllustrativeRenderingInTeamFortress2.pdf

Oh pretty please with sugar on top consider doing something similar :)

[Jake]

I tried pasting the PDF into the rendering engine source code, and it's giving me compile errors. I guess it's not that easy.

[Harald B]

What's wrong with the season one lighting?? The way Max looked in all the various lights in Reality 2.0 was stunning, especially when he turns his head in closeup when in front of the firewall. I can't imagine cell shading working better.

[xChri5x]

A Team Foress Sam & Max mini game would be cool. Each Character can be assigned a different class!

[Sir Lemming]

I must say that looks absolutely amazing, way better than usual cel-shading would be for something like Sam & Max. It actually looks sort of SCUMM-ish. But they've already established the look with season 1, and I don't see them changing it any time soon.

[Kedri]

I tried pasting the PDF into the rendering engine source code, and it's giving me compile errors. I guess it's not that easy.
Did you make sure de computer was plugged in? And have you tried restarting it?

[abdallah]

I tried pasting the PDF into the rendering engine source code, and it's giving me compile errors. I guess it's not that easy.

When the screen is filled, just shake it firmly and it will reboot.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/images/28/21/etchdubya.jpg

[MeaningOfLife]

I tried pasting the PDF into the rendering engine source code, and it's giving me compile errors. I guess it's not that easy.

Clearly you were using the wrong engine, you need to paste it into Valve's Source Engine, duh! I'm sure Telltale never got the license for that.

[taumel]

Give me a nice character (like Sam, no Poppers are accepted!) and i rim shade it for you...

[Yohmi]

You just have to do http://yohmi.free.fr/bordel/eq1.png for dependant lightning, and http://yohmi.free.fr/bordel/eq2.png for independant lightning ! It appears so easy, I'm very disappointed by you Jake...

[tobar]

Wow, that's a GREAT stylized look! Must be a real resource hog what with all of those rendering passes though.

[wiedo]

yeah.. i'm following TF2 for a long time (too long actually) and I really digg the new cartoony style.
When I saw the trailers om S&M S2 I thought they would use the same technique's as TF2. But maybe this is something for S&M S3 :) (pleeeeaaaase, pretty pleeaaase, wet puppy eyes pleeaaase)

[ShaggE]

I tried pasting the PDF into the rendering engine source code, and it's giving me compile errors. I guess it's not that easy.

*sigh*

You have to translate the PDF into LOLcode (http://lolcode.com/home).

LOLcode is an industry standard now... get with the times, man!

Would you like us to just take over development for you guys? Yeesh! :p

[abdallah]

Yeah even I can produce those visuals - here look
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/images/sept07/scout1.jpg
Presto. Didn't take me more than a minute either.

[wiedo]

I pre-ordered the orange box and played TF2 for ten hours in 3 days (+school and work).
GREAT GAME, GREAT GRAPHICS!

The graphics are totaly different from the graphics of S&M, more pixar like. Maybe S&M is more cartoony, but I think this toon shader thing will look great on S&M.

I also like the use of motion blur and the facial animations of the characters in TF2. Telltale has to check this game out, just for study :)

[tabacco]

Many of us already play TF2, thank you very much. You're not going to see those graphics in season two, though. It's not even our style, really :(

[Jake]

Yeah we all play it quite a lot, actually. Doug's got a dedicated server running in the office for LAN matches. Digging around the general forum will even reveal a thread Nick created about it.

[Maratanos]

What's wrong with the season one lighting?? The way Max looked in all the various lights in Reality 2.0 was stunning, especially when he turns his head in closeup when in front of the firewall. I can't imagine cell shading working better.

What's wrong? Tons.


It WOULD have looked stunning, surely, if it weren't for the complete absence of reflections and shadows. Without these, the lighting lacks much in terms of realism.


Just compare the office render for season 2 with the office screenshot, and you'll know what I mean.

[abdallah]

Absolutely nothing wrong with the graphics so far! This is just a really cool way to render them.

[Jake]

We'd like to expand our renderer out to do cooler stuff, and in fact have already made some enhancements on the console side for CSI, like per pixel shading for cleaner environment/specular maps (if you look at the mobile crime lab vehicle on the 360 and then compare it to the PC, the new tech that made it into the 360 version is a noticeable improvement) and generally making things look nicer. We're always improving basically everything ... if you go back and play Out From Boneville then jump into the last few Sam & Max episodes it's obvious that things are always slowly building. One big difference between Telltale and the standard game company, though, is that we don't sequester ourselves in the back of the office for two years writing a new rendering engine for every game we ship -- the updates to the visual side get snuck in slowly either as we need them, or when a programmer has time and is tasked to spend it on that sort of thing in between shipping episodes, or between seasons. There's always progress going on, and we're always discovering new things we can do even within the existing toolset (there are some effects in season two that people will probably be surprised by, and I probably nearly broke the engine doing some of the composing for the opening title sequence), but from a single episode or season to the next, there aren't a stunning amount of leaps forward in every arena. All that said, I think people will be surprised by some of the stuff we'll be churning out over the next year. Probably not Team Fortress 2, but, you know. :)

[abdallah]

Cool, definitely looking forward to seeing it :) I did notice the shader stuff in Season 1. And I understand you have a completely different model than big companies like Valve. I'll take good art direction over the Unreal 3 engine any day, and that you have :)

[wiedo]

wow.. that posts needs some formating :)

But thanks for the explanation Jake. And yes I noticed graphical differences between the sam & max episodes mainly because I played them al in 2 weeks.

I'm looking forward to the new Sam & Max season 2 graphics and the graphical improvements each episode. But graphics aren't that important for S&M!

Please focus on the story, humor, music and suprises (like reality 2.0) :)

[taumel]

@Jake
Can you say something about the reasons why TTG prefers developing it's own engine instead of licencing middleware? As most of the time obviously there are pros and cons, so i would be interested why you went your route.

[tabacco]

Because our engine rocks?

[Jake]

I cant talk much about or show you any of the engine, but it's *very* tailored to rapid development of story-based games. It's not a generic graphics engine that we're building adventure games within, it's a set of very easy to use tools that are 100% aimed at building these games in a 3D environment. There aren't many (if any) other game engines around that would allow you to build a cinematic adventure game in as little time as we can with the Telltale Tool. As I'm not a programmer, I couldn't really tell you the downsides, though you're right that there are probably some trade-offs somewhere.

[taumel]

Out of curiosity i really would be interested to learn something about how your workflow looks like if that's possible.

When i was asking after the middleware i didn't meant this in respect of the logic/scripting part as i already thought that there aren't, if at all, any tools around which are for sale and which fit your personal needs but in respect of something like the rendering engine, contrary to the benefit of beeing in full control (hopefully), you always have to keep it up to date, developing it further, maintainance like fixing bugs, writing workarounds and so on. The more eye candy the more pain unless you don't increase just the specs and care about fallbacks. So it's not this clear how you draw the line here if it's a drag or a benefit doing such things on your own.

[Jake]

Ah gotchya. Sadly that strays far enough away from anything that I actually do day to day that someone else -- a programmer probably -- would need to answer.

[taumel]

Okay, i'm waiting... :O)

[Erwin]

Pre-ordering the Orange Box will get you TF2 in advance, right? --But does anyone know if that goes too if you order TF2 stand-alone via Steam?

--Erwin

[Jake]

I think its just part of the orange box offer, but I'm not sure.

[Mel]

Is the box really and truly orange? Is it a sunny, citrusy orange or more of a burnt orange?

Sorry for the spam. I'm actually curious about the packaging, though.

[wisp]

since the question if telltale will use tf2-style shading for sam & max is answered, i guess we could talk about it...

i think the orange box will really be orange. i would make abolutely no sense calling something orange and then giving it a different color. the only exception being if real oranges were included. but then it would be more a box of oranges than an orange box..

ohh and if you're interested in the hue of orange, they will use, you should check the valve hp. they have a lot of orange there and i should be the same that will be printed on the box. but you can never be sure..

[Jake]

I don't quite know what Valve is going for with this box, but...

http://www.vpd.fi/kuvat/pc_halflife_2_orange_box.jpg

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Yeah, not the best box art around...

[tabacco]

It'll stand out like mad on a shelf though.

[Jake]

It sorta looks like cartooney anti-virus software or something, though.

[MeaningOfLife]

It sorta looks like cartooney anti-virus software or something, though.

This sounds more fun than that crazy "weather game" that came with Nintendo Wii.

[LuigiHann]

This sounds more fun than that crazy "weather game" that came with Nintendo Wii.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/20

Back on topic (sort of) I agree that the Orange Box looks weird. The Portal logo in the middle especially; Portal sounds like a cool game, but "figure falling into hole" doesn't make a great box cover.

[wiedo]

i thought the orange box was all about buying HL2 (plus the two episodes) and getting TF2 and Portal for free. But the box cover doesn't look like it.
It's more like: You get a little bit of Gordon, more Portal and a lot of TF2.

[tabacco]

That's what it is for me :)

I'm not that interested in Half Life, but I love TF2 and I'm excited about Portal.

[Mel]

The little stick man took one look at the two grimacing guys on either side of him (who could easily rip him apart without any weapons) and decided to hightail it out of there! :D

It looks very burnt orange to me and yes, that will definitely stand out! :p

[Col_Shaggy]

All the way back on topic: :cool:

The "cel shading" of TF2 does make it look nice and cartoony but it's not that much different from Sam N Max. The only difference is the actual art style. TF2 has more of a Looney Tunes style to it whereas Sam N Max is very true to Steve Purcell's style of drawing but both are just extrapolated into 3D models, the N64 South Park FPS is the same way.

If you want to see some truly faithful cel shading graphics play XIII. It's got an amazing comic book look that gives a feeling of flat illustrations but still carries the depth of a 3D engine. Now THAT style would be interesting to see in a Sam N Max game, particularly with the flashes of comic book frames when something special happens.

[wiedo]

I'm actually in the game XIII :)
(choose John in multiplayer, it's me, i won it in a contest!)

But I wouldn't like to see the cell shading in Sam and Max, it doesn't have enough details to look like an actual S&M comic.

http://www.armchairempire.com/images/previews/multi-platform/xiii/xiii-2.jpg

[Erwin]

I think its just part of the orange box offer, but I'm not sure.

Hmm yeah, that's what I expected. I'm probably going for the box anyway, even though I don't have time to play all these awesome games (Portal!!!) anyway. I'm already going to be happy when I can end a day with a relaxing hour of TF2 awesomeness.

--Erwin

[wiedo]

*very offtopic*

I just completed Portal.. really worth it... I did it in 1,5 hours or something.
But there's still a lot of bonus maps to do.

Portal is actually very funny. I don't want to give spoilers but the ending ROCKS!

[fhqwhgads]

<SPAM>
http://www.armorgames.com/games/portaltheflashversion_game.html
</SPAM>

I haven't played Portal yet, but I am very intrigued. This was fun, however :)

[wiedo]

<SPAM>
http://www.armorgames.com/games/portaltheflashversion_game.html
</SPAM>

I haven't played Portal yet, but I am very intrigued. This was fun, however :)

The real portal is much better!

[LuigiHann]

I have to say, playing the flash one was enough to get me thinking about the real one. We'll see.

[Röksvamp]

If you're looking for a beautiful cel shaded game, play Legend of Zelda: The wind waker. I know, it's one of these games you just have to hate or love. I did the later, and I'm sure you will too if you just give it a second try.

But, I don't think Sam and Max would look better with a cel shaded style. I'm comfort with the present one =P

[wiedo]

The Wind Waker is one of my all time favorite games, gameplay and graphics.
I have to play phantom hourglass now, but i'm addicted to Team Fortress :(

[Badwolf]

I have a mate who thinks Team Fortress 2 looked better when it was going to be gritty and realistic. He also thinks there needs to be more games which consist soley of the colours grey and brown.
I can't understand some people at all, but each to their own.

That said, I'm joining the anti-cel-shading camp for Sam and Max (I do think cel-shading does look good on some games though).
The comics themselves aren't the flat two-tone style cel-shading gives, so I don't think it'd suit the games either.

[wisp]

hmm, maybe someone should invent a shading mechanism that creates a flat look, but with aquarelle-like surfaces...they should call it pur-cell shading..:cool:

[LuigiHann]

hmm, maybe someone should invent a shading mechanism that creates a flat look, but with aquarelle-like surfaces...they should call it pur-cell shading..:cool:

I believe I've seen attempts at creating watercolor effects in 3D, but nothing comes to mind as having succeeded memorably... so you'd probably have a good property on your hands if you came up with a good method of doing that.

[Murray the Chao]

Cel-shading wouldn't look good for Sam & Max... except, perhaps, for a remake of Hit the Road.

[wiedo]

I believe I've seen attempts at creating watercolor effects in 3D, but nothing comes to mind as having succeeded memorably... so you'd probably have a good property on your hands if you came up with a good method of doing that.

Okami has it:
http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/138/Image/Okami%20screen%20(480%20x%20360).jpg
http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/4050-Okami1.jpg

It's a PS2 game so it's lowres, but i think it will look great in hi-def!

[Yohmi]

Cel Shading is not appropriated for Sam&Max. Cel Shading is ugly for already existing character designs. It needs the design to be thinked again... look at all cel shaded games, they have very special characters, look at link... if you want to see how ugly can be a game with cel-shading, based on a drawing, just take a look at the new The Simpsons game (http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/6710/1258_0007.jpg). And I bet they have more money than telltale ^^

Cel Shading is too complex for now because of optimisation, it shows too easily model edges, cannot be as detailed as 3D traditionnal render, and is too capricious regarding to lighting.

In fact, for me, the best thing about graphic that can happen to Telltale's Sam&Max is a better lightning, smoother models and sharper textures. Not another style, just a step ahead ^^

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Cel Shading is not appropriated for Sam&Max. Cel Shading is ugly for already existing character designs. It needs the design to be thinked again... look at all cel shaded games, they have very special characters, look at link... if you want to see how ugly can be a game with cel-shading, based on a drawing, just take a look at the new The Simpsons game (http://images.gamersyde.com/gallery/public/6710/1258_0007.jpg). And I bet they have more money than telltale ^^

Are you kidding? The new Simpsons game is, in my opinion, very well designed.

[Badwolf]

OK, that screenshot doesn't really do it justice, but I thought the Simpsons game looked pretty good (this coming from someone who detests the show).

Apparently (I use this word too much, apparently), they're using a technique which renders the image in 3D and then crushes it into 2D or something. So the Simpsons game is either technically a 2D game, or we've got Blast Processing syndrome.

EDIT: Gameplay video here. It looks much better like this rather than a still: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/10/16/simpsons-game-parodies-those-crazy-japanese-and-their-wacky-game/

[Yohmi]

It's only 3D with Cel-Shading render and simple textures. I have the demo at home, it's just a bad cel-shading, with huge pixelisation and approximate contours. Even if the game is great (can't say, I just played a demo, it was'nt funny at all, empty and slackness, but it's just a demo), you can't say rendering is great... it reminds me oooold screenshots of the first beta of Earthworm Jim 64... but it was in 1998, when Ocarina of Time's link's face seems so detailed (but it was just a cube with a nose) and Goldeneye photorealistic.

When you see the Simpsons Game, you really want to see Sam&Max turned into that rendering ? losing every details, having a 2-tone lighting and an approximate black line revealing edges ? Wow...

[Badwolf]

When you see the Simpsons Game, you really want to see Sam&Max turned into that rendering ?

No, because Sam and Max is a completely different beast. Like I said earlier "The comics themselves aren't the flat two-tone style cel-shading gives", but the Simpsons is.

[Wile_E]

I don't quite know what Valve is going for with this box, but...

http://www.vpd.fi/kuvat/pc_halflife_2_orange_box.jpg

At least it doesn't have an EA logo splattered across the front. :)

umm...did my posts get reset or what? I haven't posted in awhile.

[Badwolf]

I think I'm the only person who doesn't mind the box. It tells you all you need to know, and it'll stand out a mile off so you'll spot it through everything else on the shelves.