Gripe about the Season DVD Securom!

[TextureGlitch]

It pains me to have to point this out, because I love you guys and the work you do (which is why I keep buying it). But you've really hit a nerve here and hopefully if enough people complain about this, you'll listen to us.

The other day I was in the mood to replay season one to remind myself of all the details before the next season begins. Having uninstalled all of the episodes previously, I installed them all from the DVD for the first time.
As promised on the forum boards earlier this year, the DVD didn't have the activation protection that the downloaded episodes do, and -- naive as I am -- I thought this meant no digital rights management (read: customer annoyance) at all.

Imagine my surprise when the Season DVD turns out to be protected with Securom, which means that every customer who has paid for your game is now being punished for their honesty. I have to go find the DVD and put it in the drive now every single time I want to play. That is, presuming I'm not running something else that randomly breaks Securom. Not even your online activation was this annoying.
I don't want to dig out the DVD whenever I play the game, for exactly the same reason that I have a bunch of mp3s on my hard drive instead of just going to get the CDs from the shelf every single time I'm in the mood for music.

Honestly, why are you giving your money to Sony for empty digital promises? This isn't the 90s anymore, the kid next door who wants to play my new game doesn't get a copy of the CD, he downloads it from bittorrent himself.
Securom doesn't just appear on games by accident, it costs money and you willfully put it there, so I have to ask, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? Who convinced you this was a good idea?

Every episode of Sam & Max was on bittorrent a week after they were released, they're all cracked and work without 'protection'. You've put a lock on a chest that has a hole in the bottom. You haven't prevented a single person who wanted to steal your game from doing so. In fact, you've given them a good reason to do so: The cracked version works better.
You haven't swayed any minds, earned more money than you otherwise would have, or forced anyone to do anything.

Well, that's not entirely true, you've forced me to do a little dance and jump through some hoops whenever I want to play your game, you've installed a dubious piece of software on my computer that prevents me from using it the way I want to, and you've decided what other software programs I am allowed to run on my own computer.

All you've done is annoy me and other paying customers, you've created a myriad of new support problems for yourself regarding a piece of 3rd party software over which you have no control, and finally you've fed the copy protection companies who make billions each year selling people like you the completely unsubstantiated idea that your revenue will go up if you just install malware on your customers' computers that make sure they can't run certain programs and they have the disc in.

It's like selling someone a car and telling them they can only drive it if they put a large block of cement in the trunk and if they don't already own a motorcycle.
This copy protection idea is infesting the competitive gaming industry so much that small independent game studios have actually started making it a selling point that their games are DRM-free. They can't prevent pirates from copying their games anyway, so they might as well make their customers happier and attract more of them.

Now, it's your money and your game and ultimately your decision, of course. Heck, if you wanted to you could just say that everybody who wanted to play Sam & Max had to come to your office and use a certain computer. That'd be pretty darn effective copy protection. You just have to frisk everybody to make sure they haven't brought a copy device.
Of course, you might make a bit less money on the international market than you are now, but it's the same basic idea.

Anyway, I just wanted to make my voice heard and let you know my honest opinion about this Securom scam you've been suckered into. Hope you'll get wiser :)


(As a sidenote, the EULA on the Season DVD doesn't mention 3rd party copy protection at all, and it also seems to be copy-pasted from the Ep1 Culture Shock one, and does not seem to cover the actual product on the DVD.)

[Kaldire]

odd to know.. since bone used armadillo I think. But thats just an exe .. well never mind..
Dunno about the cds to any of the games.. since i downloaded them via the store I never had a reason to open em.. Keeping em in the case with the other telltale stuffs

[tabacco]

If you don't like the Securom protection, you're welcome to use the downloadable versions which don't require any physical medium.

[Jake]

We don't consider SecuRom a scam, thank you kindly, and are aware of all the benefits as well as all the tradeoffs and annoyances present with the copy protection we use ... probably more intimately aware than any of our customers ever will be, since we live with it for months and offer any and all tech support for our products. All that said, for us the benefits outweigh the frustrations. Will we always use copy protection, or securom? I have no idea, but for the time being, and in the forseeable future we'll be securing our games one way or another. We're always looking for less annoying ways to deal with registration/copy protection/etc, and when the Season One discs started being discussed, an informal pestering around the office revealed that most found our current online activation stuff cumbersome and frustrating (we're working on it), but very few people were bothered at all by having to have a disc in the drive to play - it's a pretty standard practice for PC games acquired on a disc (vs acquired through digital distribution). Like with anything, it turns out that some people, we've discovered, are offended beyond our wildest expectations (like yourself), and your feedback is appreciated, and will now stew in peoples brains for months, until the next time we are going to ship something and have a discussion about how to secure a physical copy of one of our games and someone mentions that some people are bugged by SecuRom. So, thanks for that :) In the meantime, sorry you're feeling punished by having to put the disc in the drive to play the game. As Doug said, if you'd like, there is always the online activation versions, which you can re-download whenever you please.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Is it really that hard to just put it in the drive? You have to do that for every other game.

[Zachspyfox033]

Why not use the same activation system for the CD ROM as you do with the downloadable version so that people won't need to put the CD ROM in every time they play the game.

[Jake]

We're working towards that, or something like it.

Also, for what it's worth...

As promised on the forum boards earlier this year, the DVD didn't have the activation protection that the downloaded episodes do, and -- naive as I am -- I thought this meant no digital rights management (read: customer annoyance) at all.

We made sure to say, as often as we could, something along the lines of "there's no online activation required - you just need the disc in the drive!" People seemed to gloss over the second half of that in their excitement, apparently. :(

[ArchMagus]

If you don't like the Securom protection, you're welcome to use the downloadable versions which don't require any physical medium.

But the downloadable versions still have SecuROM, with all of the usual restrictions. For example:

http://www.securom.com/message.asp?m=module&c=5024

(I'm not allowed to use ProcessExplorer on my PC if I want to play Sam & Max)

Regards

[Will]

If you download the latest version of Process Explorer, all you have to do is close all actively running versions of the program to play any SecuRom games. You don't have to deal with all that nasty rebooting process. I'm a PE user myself, so it disappoints me as well, but simply closing the program made it a lot more bearable.

[leeotter7]

While you may not consider SecuRom a scam, it is. Your consideration is not required. It is tantamount to hijacking someone's computer. And it is ineffective at preventing people from running pirated copies of your games. Why alienate the fanbase needlessly? The Sam & Max games are, in my opinion, really great games, and I'm rooting for their success, if only because I'm hoping that you'll never stop releasing new episodes! :-)

[bpage]

For what it's worth, I completely agree that Securom is a scam. It has never stopped any serious pirating. Cracks for securom games are easy to find. The arguement that copy protection of games stops casual pirating is one that always confused me. Those of us that still buy PC games are unlikely to give copies to our friends. Most of us know how to find pirated games and still choose to buy them. Why would we help someone else do something we wont do?

Most frustrating, though, are the unrealistic restrictions Securom places on your computer. No process explorer and no disc emulation software!? I have a tablet computer with no disc drive (it's in the docking station). It shipped from Lenovo with disc emulation software installed on it. So, Securom games will not work with an new-in-box Lenovo tablet pc.

That said, I bought the season one disc and Telltale does let us download the activated versions anytime we want. More over, they have updated season one to the new (and much improved) activation system. These signs of loyalty and customer care mean a lot.

I loath Securom in principle and in practicality, but not even that will stop me from continuing to buy Telltales Games' games.

[Soultaker]

I largely agree with bpages comment (it's similar to the one I raised earlier) however, a few comments:
The arguement that copy protection of games stops casual pirating is one that always confused me. Those of us that still buy PC games are unlikely to give copies to our friends.
Well, not give copies maybe, but I do borrow games from friends (or lend them out) every once of a while. In my opinion, this is fair use. Note that the Securom DVD allows this kind of use, while the download with internet does not (or more accurate: it only works as long as Telltale explicitly allows it) which is why I'm much less opposed to the Securom protected disc than the activation-protected download. I don't need to be able to copy the cd if I can transfer my physical copy to other people without needing to ask Telltale's permission to do so.

Most frustrating, though, are the unrealistic restrictions Securom places on your computer. No process explorer and no disc emulation software!? I have a tablet computer with no disc drive (it's in the docking station). It shipped from Lenovo with disc emulation software installed on it. So, Securom games will not work with an new-in-box Lenovo tablet pc.
It's annoying and I agree with you, but on the pragmatic side: I've been running Daemon Tools with the Securom-protected DVD without problems.

Finally I still think it makes much more sense to protect the downloadable episodes than the final DVD. The games are probably available illegally cracked and all before the DVD is shipped out, which makes protecting the DVD content rather pointless (the bonus content is, ironically, not protected). However, when a new episode is released there is a lot of anticipation, and I imagine a lot of people are willing to open their wallet if they can have the game earlier (as opposed to waiting for a cracked version). So I definitely see the advantage of copy-protection there.

[Jake]

For what it's worth, you can "lend" a downloadable copy to your friend, they just need to be a real enough friend that you trust them enough to not abuse your My Telltale login information.

[jab1981]

I just wanted to throw in my two cents. I almost composed an e-mail about this very topic. While I understand the desire to keep your games as secure as possible, it also should be understood that whenever these attempts start to cut into your customers enjoyment that should be a bigger concern. So far your copy-protections have seemed relatively fair but forcing me to play with the DVD in the drive was rather irritating. I just uninstalled the whole thing after finishing the first episode and downloaded all the episodes to play them that way. I purchased Season 1 with the idea of playing them off the DVD. I don't like the idea of digital downloads very much and prefer to have physical copies. It's somewhat ironic to me that I waited so long for the disc and I ended up downloading them so I could play them.

It's not yet reached a point for me where I'd threaten to stop buying your products. Far from it. I've loved Sam and Max and I just purchased Season 2. I try to convince everyone I know to buy your products as well, however this is something that does seem to alienate your customers a bit. It's not a huge deal, but when you're almost accused of being a criminal by a game you purchased it's going to rub some people the wrong way. It reminds me a bit of the resistance online music stores found from people refusing to buy DRM files. That seems to be why iTunes and most other major online stores are focusing on DRM-free MP3s. There's little incentive to keep your customers honest if they can pirate, steal or copy your work with fewer hassles than those of us who are honest. Like I said, putting a disc in a drive is not the worst thing in the world. But, I did have the thought that this "protection" seemed like a hassle to the people buying your software and something those stealing it wouldn't even have to deal with. Putting a disc in a drive isn't enough to turn me to a life of crime, but I can see how things like this could keep those already down that path from turning back.

Keep up the good work and hopefully a DVD serial can be worked out for the Season 2 release. Once again, I'm waiting for the DVD. Now I'm off to try and get the sound working in Season 1 again. Keep up the great work guys, I love these games.

[Civ2boss]

I just read an article by the people at Stardock who make Galactic Civilization 1 and 2. The article is about gaming and piracy, you guys might want to check it out. They don't put any copy protection on their games and this article explains why.

http://draginol.joeuser.com/article/303512/Piracy_PC_Gaming

[peoples]

That's how I see it too.

[Urban Nerdo]

Honestly (I know this thread is about 2 months unreplied, but this is important), WHO CARES WHAT SECUROM DOES? My brother installed S1 through my DVD, SecuROM doesn't break ANYTHING on his own computer, that thing's running Vista, fer' crying out loud! Even stuff that's gone digitally unsigned isn't broken by SecuROM. In fact, only game SecuROM's ever given me trouble with is BioShock (2K might've modified that version of SecuROM 7.x). TellTale's made the right decision with SecuROM, it's not leaving any loopholes in your system like Safedisk and other copy protections do. That's the exact reason Maxis switched from Safedisk to SecuROM 7.x for The Sims 2. It doesn't leave any security holes.

[Rulzern]

WHO CARES WHAT SECUROM DOES?
These guys (http://telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4689), and most of these guys (http://telltalegames.com/forums/search.php?searchid=780120), me, the people who didn't buy the game because they don't want to willingly install malware on their computers, the people who use their computer for other things than playing Sam & Max.

Copy protection is perfectly reasonable way to protect against piracy, that doesn't mean we (as customers) have to be happy about it. If the decrease in piracy leads to more sales or not (or less) is something that isn't really established (unless you think that one pirated copy = one less sale).

What copy protection does is make it less convenient to pirate games, the downside is that it also makes it less convenient to be a paying customer. So in short, I understand the reasoning behind using copy protection, but as a customer, it lessens the value of the product for me.

[Tester Scott]

Our SecuRom doesn't actually install anything on your computer.

[Urban Nerdo]

Exactly my point. That's why Telltale's my favorite game company. They actually care about their customers with quality support.

[kdos]

The first thing I did when i was confronted with secuRom was go onto the net and download a hacked version of the game. it was easy to find, a quick goggle search and a bittorrent dl and I had a copy of the game with no protection. I would say securom only stops people who don't have highspeed internet and are somewhat computer illiterate, Maybe there are enough of those people buying the disks to make it worth your while protecting them...I don't know but I'm going to guess there are.

ok so why did i need to get around securom? funny story... I was borrowing the DVD version from a friend of mine. It wouldn't have been an issue at all if I hadn't decided it would be awesome to play on my Fujitsu p1610 (It is, this game is BEGGING to be played on a touch screen computer) It has no cd drive so i have to use emulation software and thats how I got here..

This wont be a problem for season 2 as I plan to download them them from the net as soon as I get back home to my highspeed. Right now I don't know if it will be from bittorrent or from the legit place. it really depends what kind of hassle the legit place gives me. Honestly I think it would be easiest if I buy the CD, put in on the shelf and then download the hacked versions.

[Molokov]

The download versions from Telltale require online activation the first time you run them. If you're on Windows XP or Vista (the supported OS's) and haven't removed Internet Explorer from your system, you should be fine to activate them online. (Let them through your firewall, of course).

As far as I understand it, once you've authenticated the game once, you won't need to be online to do it again to keep playing (unless you uninstall or reinstall).

I'm sure the TT staff will correct me if I've made any errors.

Please don't pirate the games. We all want Telltale to make money so they can keep on making more great games! Plus, it's only $9/episode or $35 for the whole season, which is very cheap.

[OMA]

The point still is, copy protection ONLY gives problems to paying customers, not pirate ones. People downloading the games from a "non-legit" place will get them with a cracked executable that will work perfectly, whereas customers who buy the disc version might have problems, such as this:

http://telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4689

If you read that thread you'll see that the game didn't work because of the copy protection, and the problem was fixed by using a cracked EXE. I know it might not be a common case, but it still happens! It's ridiculous that one has to resort to downloading cracks from illegal sites to get a legitimate bought game working.

Users of the pirated version of the game will never know about those errors, but people who honestly bought the game get all sorts of problems. In my case, I didn't have problems with the S&M Season 1 DVD, but I did have problems with other copy protected games from other companies (namely, Ubisoft), which didn't work until copy protection was removed, so I know how incredibly annoying this is. This can happen to anyone at one time or another. Plus not all people will go so far to get the game working, so they'll be left with a non-working game!

Lastly, there is an additional issue no one has mentioned. Copy protection schemes are very reliant in little features in the OSes they're targeted at. That means the game may stop working in newer versions of the OS just because of that extra copy protection code added to the game, even if the game itself could run with no problems otherwise. The less complications in the code, the greater the chance for "forward compatibility".

And speaking of that, even it's not related to copy protection, another good step would be removing that IE-based launcher. Relying in third party system components that can be updated at any time is not good, because you don't have control over that. What if the next version of Internet Explorer breaks the behavior of the browser component? This has already happened to a lot of IE6-based applications, when the IE engine was updated with IE7. Having the games stop working just because of a browser update would be a shame.

[Armakuni]

I much prefer Securom to online activation. But I have several drives so I can leave the DVD in there for as long as I need to.

But I would prefer this even if I only had one drive, I have a strong dislike for any kind of online activation.

I *really* hope they continue to do it this way.. release downloadable versions with online activation and DVDs with disc based protection.. that way we get a choice at least.

[picklehead]

Last week I was trying to burn backups onto CDR's (not game "backups" just backing up my work). For some reason reason I could burn DVDR's just fine, but not CDR's. Every attempt at burning a CDR in Windows produced a coaster. Oddly enough, when I booted into my Linux partition, I had no problem burning CDR's. So the problem wasn't with the drive itself.

Then yesterday, when I was trying to locate my Windows Desktop from within Linux, I noticed a SecuROM folder in there. I've only had 3 games installed on this computer, so it wasn't hard to figure out which one had infected it with SecuROM. I have every reason to believe the SecuROM has interfered with my drive's ability to burn CDR's in Windows. From what I've read, it installs filter drivers and runs a service all the time, even when you're not running the "protected" game, so it's not surprising that it could interfere with other uses of the optical drive. Can someone tell me how to get rid of this cr@p in such a way that it won't hose the computer? Does Telltale have a SecuROM removal utility? I've heard of other game manufacturers supplying one. The convenience of being able to back up on CDR's within Windows is much more valuable to me than playing Sam & Max games.

[torturedutopian]

Hi !

Well, I'm personally quite annoyed by the Securom protection as well. As a Linux-only user, I play the game (Sam'n Max season 1) through Wine (it works perfectly), but I had to redownload "fixed" executables because of the securom protection + I have to put the DVD each time. So usually I redownload the digital versions (waste of bandwith + online activation + having to type the serial for each episode, at least under Wine).

There are actually many windows games that would work "out of the box" under linux thanks to wine but that don't because of securom or other protections. Which makes me frequently download cracks even if I bought them :)

Anyway, I can understand the motivation to use it, but I guess it mostly annoys the people who bought the games and not the ones who downloaded them easily from any bittorrent tracker.

Edit : just bought season 2, doesn't seem to work because of the login screen/online activation. Or will require some tweaking, again :) I know you don't support other OSes, but it's sad that the only thing preventing it from working properly is the copy protection :( I'll either download "cracks" or wait for the DVD and hope the Securom protection will work properly...

[Will]

There's a handy guide for getting the various games up and running in Wine: http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10820

I'm pretty sure they should all playable without any cracks necessary.

[torturedutopian]

Thanks for the reply Will, well, I don't know why it doesn't seem to work with Season 2, but I'll receive the DVD anyway, which will probably work ! (if the copy protection doesn't require a patch, as the Season 1 DVD)

[Will]

If I remember correctly (which ain't exactly a guarantee), I believe the problem with S1's securom was just that it was so old. The newer version that's in Season 2 is a bit less futzy I believe. But it's been quite a while since I've fiddled with it so I could be misremembering.

[picklehead]

I'd still like a utility from Telltale to get the SecuROM from Season 1 off my computer.

[Will]

Hey Pickle, did you get the cd directly from us? I'm fairly certain that none of our season dvds or our downloadable games actually install any securom utilities. Everything is either built into the disk or built into the game. Either way, I'll look into it on Monday to make sure I'm not making this all up.

[charlieboy2001]

I have to say that those who have 'legit' copies of the game and download cracked versions to bypass the security throught a torrent, are actually doing something illegal. YOU ARE STILL UPLOADING THE FILES TO OTHERS WHEN DOWNLOADING IT!!!

If people are really bothered about having to put in the CD, like myself, then get GameJackal from here. (http://www.slysoft.com/en/gamejackal.html) It is a legal, secure way to play games without the need for the CD.

I believe this should be encouraged as a way to get around the problem, and I hope the Telltale will encourage the use of it to those users that have admitted to downlading cracked versions.

[picklehead]

Hey Pickle, did you get the cd directly from us? I'm fairly certain that none of our season dvds or our downloadable games actually install any securom utilities. Everything is either built into the disk or built into the game. Either way, I'll look into it on Monday to make sure I'm not making this all up.
Yes it's from the Telltale site.
The only other games that have been installed on the computer are Oblivion Collector's Edition and Yoomurjak's Ring. Oblivion was on the computer since the day Windows was installed, and never caused a problem with burning.

If you're correct and the DVD's from Telltale don't use SecuROM, that means the problem must be from Yoomurjak's Ring -- which is especially insidious because that game was a (very long) download and doesn't even use the CD drive to install or play. Yoomurjak's was installed at about the same time as Sam & Max, so it's possible I'm blaming the wrong game. If that's the case, I humbly and red-facedly apologize for cluttering up your forums (which is no easy task for a pickle).

[Will]

No worries! I'd rather just see your computer up and running again. You may be able to use a third party uninstaller program. Like at home I use Revo Uninstaller (http://www.revouninstaller.com/) whenever I'm worried that a program will be leaving behind annoying reg keys and such. It's trustworthy and free. To fix it though, you will probably have to reinstall the program and then use the uninstaller to uninstall it.

[pygy]

Do you plan to infect (;)) the DVD version of ToMI with DRM too? While messing around to make the downloaded version work in CrossOver on my Mac, I stumbled upon Securom references (was it a directory or a registry entry? I don't remember). I still plan to order the DVD, but I'd be more than annoyed to have to keep around and handle the disc every time I want to play the game.

With optical drives getting more and more obsolete by the day, I don't think that it is a good idea to tie your games to the media they were delivered on. The overall software/hardware compatibility will probably fade out with time anyway, and a TelTalTolVM will have to be created in order to play the games ten years from now ;-), but the optical drives are already absent from the netbooks and other portable computers today...

I think I'll keep the downloaded versions too for convenience, but I'd like to know if unlocking the game with the serial instead of the login/password combination also requires network access... My concern here is that the activation scheme may be broken in the future, like it happened for some music distributed by Microsoft before they changed their music platform (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2008/04/drm-sucks-redux-microsoft-to-nuke-msn-music-drm-keys.ars), leaving thousands of paying customers with files locked to the machines on which they had activated the music. I know that you don't have any plans to do such a thing, and that you'd probably go at length to prevent this from happening even if you were bought or had to close the doors... but you never know what will happen in the future.

Here is an iPhone independent game developer discussing about the rate and consequences of piracy for two of their games (http://silverskullgame.blogspot.com/2009/09/our-pirate-game-is-getting-owned-by-app.html). They embed an activity tracker (http://www.pinchmedia.com/#pinchanalytics) in their game, and, by comparing the sales with the server hits, they were able to infer the piracy rate. Please note that, being an iPhone game, it had to be cracked before being dissiminated illegally. The stats at the top refer to their new game. The remarks at the bottom are based on their experience with the older one.

Early stats about how pirates are owning our new app:

85% of current users are using cracked copies (1 week after going live)
7 of the top 10 entries in Google when searching under "Silver Skull iPhone" are links to cracked sites
15+ tweets in the last 7 days linking to cracked copies in Twitter
15x jump in unique users when the first cracked copies went live(off of a small base though)
Rapid sampling of game. Usage analytics tell us that most of these pirated users don't play deep into the game.

Why we are not that concerned that our app has been pirated:

Rate of piracy declines rapidly. iCombat showed us that piracy rates trail off the more time the game is live (dropped to below 50% after 3 months). Since pirates are very early adopters, they tend to cycle through apps quickly. Novelty is the rush not free.
Piracy boosted paid sales. Our sales nearly doubled in the days following the release of the cracked version.
Any attention is better than no attention. It has become increasingly difficult to get noticed in the app store so having users, any users, is better than nothing (see our full post on this here).
Lite version is going live soon. This should deflate much of the push to pirate as again, pirates are more focused on sampling, not long term usage.


The most important point for me here is the fact that piracy actually doubled the sales of the game (although it's hard to get the real picture since they don't give the sales volumes for the game. It was apparently a popular iPhone game, though). Word of mouth at play I guess...

In a similar vein a band recently quadrupled their nightly CD sales by giving them away for free (http://sivers.org/livecd).

Terry McBride of Nettwerk told this story at a recent conference:

A band he was managing (Griffin House) was doing the usual thing of selling CDs for $15. They'd mention it once or twice from the stage, and sell about $300 per night on average.

He asked them to try a completely different approach:

Say to the audience, “It's really important to us that you have our CD. We worked so hard on it and are so proud of it, that we want you to have it, no matter what. Pay what you want, but even if you have no money, please take one tonight.”
Mention this again before the end of the show, adding, “Please, nobody leave here tonight without getting a copy of our CD. We've shared this great show together so it would mean a lot to us if you'd take one.”
It changes the request from a commerical pitch to an emotional connection. (Replace market mindset with social mindset!) Allowing them to get a CD for no money just reinforces that.

Terry said that the band did this for a while, and soon they were selling about $1200 per night on average, even including those people who took it for free! I think the average selling price was about $10.

But the important part came next:

Because every person left each show with a CD, they were more likely to remember who they saw, tell friends about it, listen to it later, and become an even bigger fan afterwards.

Then, when the band came back to a town where they had insisted that everyone take a CD, attendance at those shows doubled! The people that took a CD became long-term fans and brought their friends to future shows.

You could argue that a video game studio isn't a rock band, but there are similarities, especially since you already have an emotional connection with the players. You're operating in a niche, with long time core fans to the genre, and you're a small enough shop to have a real trusting relationship with your customers. Your tech support, for example is top notch. You're even helping people to run the game on unsupported platform, a thing that most companies wouldn't do :-). Using your website and shop is fun, and very much akin in excitement to handling a game box. Great stuff.

I know that these examples are purely anecdotal evidence, but I thought that it would be interesting to be exposed to the mindset of people who consider the free distribution of the goods they otherwise sell (and not just samples) as a profit opportunity, especially since the pirates have no intention to buy them anyway. The majority them are people with a lot of free time and little money (teenagers or unemployed).

I'm nowhere implying that you should release your games for free, BTW, but that protecting them is at best useless.

At last, I'd like to echo a comment from the Hacker News comment thread (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=855269) about the blog post on the iPhone games linked above...

by timcederman | link

A nice sensible response, with some well-reasoned observations.
The thing about piracy I've always found weird is how hysterical some people get about it for their medium and not others. For example, I am good friends with several software developers who get furious about people pirating their products, but have no qualms about having gigs of copied music personally.

Piracy has been ingrained in the digital word since day one. Now that digital technologies are ubiquitous, everyone does it to some extent (I just read Tim Schafer's account on how he got hired at Lucasfilm Games (http://www.doublefine.com/site/comments/twenty_years_only_a_few_tears/) ;-). I think that you'd be better off embracing it rather than fighting it. It's a perpetual defeat anyway.

Actually, it seems that it's already partially your strategy, since it's so easy to share the paid downloaded copies with the people you trust... I don't understand your reasons for crippling the DVD releases with DRM... Is it required by third party distributors (Nintendo, Steam, Gametap, etc...)? Assuming that you can generalize the trend of the iPhone game, since the DVD comes late in the release cycle, it won't be pirated much anyway.

Whatever, I'm back to ToMI... AaaaRRrrr!

[[TTG] Yare]

The point of copy protection is not to delay the pirates so there is not a 0-day torrent. Splinter Cell Chaos Theory used a (now very old and primitive) version of StarForce that wasn't cracked for a year. This was a pretty sound victory for companies willing to use draconian DRM.

Ultimately, PC game piracy will be defeated by Steam and its competitors. Once all PC games are released exclusively on digital services, they can require a user to be signed in to play their games much like a MMO. Or they could ban an entire user's account ( see: Microsoft and Xbox 360 ) if piracy is detected. Video game piracy will only be a problem for 10 more years, tops. Technology will handle technology.

[DjNDB]

Yare;225442']Ultimately, PC game piracy will be defeated by Steam and its competitors. Once all PC games are released exclusively on digital services, they can require a user to be signed in to play their games much like a MMO.

There's OnLive (http://www.onlive.com/service/how_onlive_works.html) with an extreme approach. The user's hardware is merely a thin client. The game runs on their servers and the user basically gets an interactive video of the game.

The downside of both approaches is that the games die when the company decides to stop offering the service or goes bankrupt. I think a lifecycle of 5 or more years would be rare in these cases, except if the game is a major success such as WoW.
Now imagine you could not play any games released prior to 2004 ever again. That would be a huge loss. No way to take a trip down memory lane while playing the classics.

I know the developers and the users point of view, and whatever you do, it sucks for one of them.

[GinnyN]

Yare;225442']Ultimately, PC game piracy will be defeated by Steam and its competitors. Once all PC games are released exclusively on digital services, they can require a user to be signed in to play their games much like a MMO. Or they could ban an entire user's account ( see: Microsoft and Xbox 360 ) if piracy is detected. Video game piracy will only be a problem for 10 more years, tops. Technology will handle technology.

There's always a way. Always.

Really.

In fact, I'm sure there's some Steam Games you can download illegally and play it without an account.

Just like I said, there's always a way.

The only way to actually "defeat" the pirates is do a game good enough so you have to buy it because you think is good and you want to support the developer, which happen with me and the Sam and Max Games. So, keep up the good work Telltale ^^!

[DjNDB]

There's always a way. Always.

Really.

Not if the game runs partially or totally on remote servers. In the first case someone might try to emulate the servers role, but that's a whole different story and requires a lot of effort, depending on how much complexity the server handles.

[GinnyN]

Not if the game runs partially or totally on remote servers. In the first case someone might try to emulate the servers role, but that's a whole different story and requires a lot of effort, depending on how much complexity the server handles.

Another story is, of course, if the people will stand that (I will not for starters).

[[TTG] Yare]

Not if the game runs partially or totally on remote servers.

This is correct.

People are already comfortable with this model, given the popularity of MMOs. There really won't be any resistance to it once high-speed Internet access becomes ubiquitous.

[Leak]

Yare;225670']People are already comfortable with this model, given the popularity of MMOs. There really won't be any resistance to it once high-speed Internet access becomes ubiquitous.
AHAHAHAHA... *snort*

Sorry, but I think the term you're looking for here is "sheeple"; that model is only going to work for casual games, but not for stuff you really need low latency connections for.

Then again, it's an even bigger waste of bandwidth and resources for single-player games...

[[TTG] Yare]

AHAHAHAHA... *snort*

Sorry, but I think the term you're looking for here is "sheeple"; that model is only going to work for casual games, but not for stuff you really need low latency connections for.

Then again, it's an even bigger waste of bandwidth and resources for single-player games...

It would work for any sort of game you want. You wouldn't put inner-loop physics or rendering code on the server, obviously. But maybe when you click on a door, the game has to ask a server what it should do. The code that handles opening doors would be server-side, and would never reside on your hard disk. If you're not online and logged into your account for the game, you don't get to open doors. Piracy defeated by a door.

For a shooting game or anything else that people expect low latency for, you could make character selection, respawning, team selection, or any number of large subroutines that are critical for playing the game but not called that frequently server-side only. Nobody will notice or complain that it takes an extra tenth of a second when you click the respawn button.

Again, MMOs and Steam are very popular. People are fine with the idea that you need to be online and signed into an account to play video games, and they're only going to get more accustomed to it.

[Leak]

Yare;225956']For a shooting game or anything else that people expect low latency for, you could make character selection, respawning, team selection, or any number of large subroutines that are critical for playing the game but not called that frequently server-side only. Nobody will notice or complain that it takes an extra tenth of a second when you click the respawn button.
Sure, because you'll just love it when you can't respawn because your internet connection just went on the fritz, or because some clown out on the internets thinks he can DDoS your internet connection into an advantage for him...

Sorry, but requiring an active internet connection for such things and telling people they can't play some game out in the woods because they need to be online for something that even Joe Sixpack knows it shouldn't need a server or a connection is madness.

(Asking the server in single player for respawning permission? That's gonna go ever about as well as no dedictated servers for Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/modernwarfare2)... not my kind of game, but look at that user score...)

Again, MMOs and Steam are very popular. People are fine with the idea that you need to be online and signed into an account to play video games, and they're only going to get more accustomed to it.
MMO's are a humongous waste of time and money (something I found out by getting severely bored after a few months of Ultima Online), but by definition they are played online and so copy protection practically solves itself - but trying to do the same with single-player games is not going to fly.

And while Steam is nice in theory it's overpriced most of the time and games downloaded through it have been cracked, too...

But we're getting a bit off-topic here, don't you think? All I'm saying is that the day the scenario you laid out above happens will be the day I'll quit playing PC games that implement such measures. And that's coming from someone that has several meters of shelf-space filled with game boxes...

[[TTG] Yare]

(Asking the server in single player for respawning permission? That's gonna go ever about as well as no dedictated servers for Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/pc/modernwarfare2)... not my kind of game, but look at that user score...)

Who cares about the user score? A few angry people making noise on a website doesn't mean anything to anyone. Modern Warfare 2 sold 5 million units in its first day. That's the single biggest launch in history across all types of media -books, movies, whatever.

Also, lol Internet: http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/6062/1258035395841.jpg

[der_ketzer]

Yare;226039']
Also, lol Internet:

guess what: I did not buy this piece of cr*p

[[TTG] Yare]

More about angry Internet people and boycotts:

Valve's Gabe Newell stated, "for people who joined the Boycott Group on Steam, we can look at their pre-orders, and they're actually pre-ordering the product at a higher rate than Left 4 Dead 1 owners who weren't in the Boycott".

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/left4dead2/video/6238431/gabe-newell-behind-left-4-dead-2-and-beyond-interview

[JedExodus]

Yare;226694']More about angry Internet people and boycotts:

Valve's Gabe Newell stated, "for people who joined the Boycott Group on Steam, we can look at their pre-orders, and they're actually pre-ordering the product at a higher rate than Left 4 Dead 1 owners who weren't in the Boycott".

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/left4dead2/video/6238431/gabe-newell-behind-left-4-dead-2-and-beyond-interview

Ahhhh aul Gabe, he may be fat, but he talks sense

Also a side-note going back to original topic (prob mentioned before) Steam activation on DVD versions anyone? Everyone uses Steam these days and at least we wouldn't need the disc in the drive. Though Gabe and co would be looking there two cents i'm sure

[Mark22]

FWIW I agree with the OP. I now actively avoid software with DRM because of the problems it causes. In the past I have had to download cracks for games I have bought because it was the only way to get them to work :(
And then there's the risk that the DRM malware (yes, it is malware) does some irrepairable damage to your system and you have to reinstall your OS. I can't afford this risk since I use my PC for work too.
I'm not fond of online activation either because I like to play older games and worry that I won't if the servers are taken away.
Shame, I like Sam and Max and would have bought the DVD if it did not have DRM.

[Will]

Just to clarify, WE DO NOT INSTALL ANY DRM DRIVERS ON YOUR COMPUTER.

The game just checks to make sure the disk is in the drive, and that's all built into the executable. There's no third party software installed, no malicious registry keys, nothin'.

[SHODANFreeman]

Just to clarify, WE DO NOT INSTALL ANY DRM DRIVERS ON YOUR COMPUTER.

The game just checks to make sure the disk is in the drive, and that's all built into the executable. There's no third party software installed, no malicious registry keys, nothin'.

Anti-SecuROM fanatics are basically just conspiracy theorists that think Big Brother is out to get them and all companies would like to ruin their things.

[JedExodus]

Anti-SecuROM fanatics are basically just conspiracy theorists that think Big Brother is out to get them and all companies would like to ruin their things.

But Securom use has been linked to higher cancer rates and liver failure, right?

[[TTG] Yare]

But Securom use has been linked to higher cancer rates and liver failure, right?

You're not supposed to consume the disc.

[JedExodus]

Yare;228336']You're not supposed to consume the disc.

Like anyone takes those warnings seriously. You're such a square man

[Coolgamer]

Just to clarify, WE DO NOT INSTALL ANY DRM DRIVERS ON YOUR COMPUTER.

The game just checks to make sure the disk is in the drive, and that's all built into the executable. There's no third party software installed, no malicious registry keys, nothin'.

It also happens to check if you're running any sort of Virtual Disk system, like Daemon Tools, checks to see if you're running ProcessExplorer for some unknown reason, keeps me from making a legal backup of the disc I paid good money for in case it gets damaged, and fails to prevent any actual piracy whatsoever.

You'd be better off including a video of "Don't Copy That Floppy" with each game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up863eQKGUI

Telltale, you're smarter then this. Don't act like EA Games or LucasArts.

In the meantime, follow the guide at http://reclaimyourgame.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=106 to clean the malware from your PC.

[mateo360]

The discs have yet to cause me any problems. I have Daemon tools running since my family is made up of gamers and I wants to have digital copies of disks when I move out. I can run the games just fine with out any negative side effects.

[wwitthoff1]

I don;t have an issue with the DVDs either, and I have Alcohol 120% installed. Without, I might add, using the ACID wizard.

[SHODANFreeman]

and fails to prevent any actual piracy whatsoever.

I'm pretty sure that without it, hundreds of people would be burning copies to pass off to their friends without a second thought, so it IS preventing people from pirating. Sure, it won't prevent cracks from happening, but nothing ever will.

Casual piracy used to be extremely rampant when CD burners first came out because people thought it was cool that they could just copy games and give them to their friends for free. Those are the only pirates that copy protection is aimed at these days, not the ones cracking copies of the game and downloading ISOs and all that nonsense.

[Coolgamer]

Trying to start Reality 2.0...

SecuROM™ has determined that a Process Explorer program is running in the background.

* Please close this program and reboot your machine before you start the application.

If the application still won't start, please send a SecuROM™ analysis file to support@securom.com (see Support Info section on how to prepare and send an analysis file).


http://www.securom.com/message.asp?m=module&c=5024

[jweir]

Trying to start Reality 2.0...

SecuROM™ has determined that a Process Explorer program is running in the background.

* Please close this program and reboot your machine before you start the application.

If the application still won't start, please send a SecuROM™ analysis file to support@securom.com (see Support Info section on how to prepare and send an analysis file).


http://www.securom.com/message.asp?m=module&c=5024
Process Explorer is a program, have you installed it? If so you'll have to remove/disable it to play as SecureROM doesn't like it.

[Will]

I believe newer versions of Process Explorer don't cause any exceptions, so you could try updating it as well. At worst you should just have to turn it off, not uninstall or anything.

[Leak]

I believe newer versions of Process Explorer don't cause any exceptions, so you could try updating it as well. At worst you should just have to turn it off, not uninstall or anything.
Actually, I think newer versions of SecuROM just don't care about Process Explorer anymore - I still got that message when I reinstalled Far Cry a year or so ago...

And AFAIR the biggest problem for some time was that SecuROM kept complaining even after shutting down Process Explorer since the hooks it used into several Windows functions could not be unloaded once they were in place, hence you had to reboot and not run PE if you started some games... :(

np: Jónsi & Alex - Happiness (Riceboy Sleeps)

[Coolgamer]

Process Explorer is a program, have you installed it? If so you'll have to remove/disable it to play as SecureROM doesn't like it.

I know, and that is ridiculous. There is no good reason I shouldn't be allowed to run it. It's not a pirate tool in the slightest.

[Will]

Yeah, the newer version of PE actually decouples those hooks when you just turn it off. It doesn't require a full reboot, regardless of how old your Securom.

[fleet]

Yare;225956']It would work for any sort of game you want. You wouldn't put inner-loop physics or rendering code on the server, obviously. But maybe when you click on a door, the game has to ask a server what it should do. The code that handles opening doors would be server-side, and would never reside on your hard disk. If you're not online and logged into your account for the game, you don't get to open doors. Piracy defeated by a door.

For a shooting game or anything else that people expect low latency for, you could make character selection, respawning, team selection, or any number of large subroutines that are critical for playing the game but not called that frequently server-side only. Nobody will notice or complain that it takes an extra tenth of a second when you click the respawn button.

Again, MMOs and Steam are very popular. People are fine with the idea that you need to be online and signed into an account to play video games, and they're only going to get more accustomed to it.

I realize this is an older post, but I felt the need to respond. I think you overestimate people's willingness to accept the kind of limitations you talk about. When it comes to MMO's, even people that aren't as computer literate understand that they need to be online in order to play with other people. There have been so many complaints about online activations for disc based versions of many single player games what makes you think that people will accept a system where they have to be online the whole time they are playing?

Steam was also a bad example to use. I like Steam because of the convenience and because they have some great sales. If it weren't for those two things I probably would have only bought Valve games on the service and I don't buy games that have an added layer of DRM or activation limits on top of the limits of Steam. Steam also has an offline mode so it is not anything like the system that you are talking about. It is possible to install a game and then go into offline mode and play the game when you are away from an internet connection.

[jweir]

fleet, I think you misunderstand Telltale's protection scheme. As far as I know you don't have to be online at all for the disc versions, only have the disc in the tray, and as far as the episodes I'm pretty sure it's a one time deal activation and then you're set to roll.

[Hassat Hunter]

Or not even that if you use the "unlock code" instead of one-time online activation.

But yeah, with fleet I agree: I don't use Steam. I much rather get my games in stores so not to suffer from having to run Steam just to play my game. Offline mode isn't perfect, as I learned when trying to run AudioSurf without net-connection and failing to do so in offline modus because whatever reason it was...

[fleet]

fleet, I think you misunderstand Telltale's protection scheme. As far as I know you don't have to be online at all for the disc versions, only have the disc in the tray, and as far as the episodes I'm pretty sure it's a one time deal activation and then you're set to roll.

Hey jweir,

I was responding to a post by [TTG] Yare further up where he was postulating about the future of DRM in games and ways that game makers could protect their games. He talked about running parts of the code on a server like the code for opening doors in a single player game for example, so you would only be able to open doors in the game if you bought a copy and were logged in to the server while playing the game. He gave Steam as an example of why people would be willing to accept having to be online to play the game and I agree, I would be willing to accept those limitations if the price of the game was reduced to reflect the lower perceived value of a game that I can only play with considerable limitations, and if there was an offline mode for times when I was away from an internet connection. If it had those two features then it would be a lot like Steam with it's offline mode and good sales.

[City Of Delusion]

The acid test for Yare's view on the future of DRM will probably be Ubisoft's new DRM, which is pretty much what he's describing.

[Hassat Hunter]

I certainly hope not, because that becomes the end of my gaming days, with primarily SP-oriented games and a crappy connection...

[[TTG] Yare]

The acid test for Yare's view on the future of DRM will probably be Ubisoft's new DRM, which is pretty much what he's describing.

For anyone unaware, the PC version of Assassin's Creed II's DRM requires the player to be logged into the Internet at all times. If you disconnect, the game boots you and you have to play from the last checkpoint you reached when you were still online.

The point of video game DRM isn't to stop piracy, but to delay a bit so more sales can be made. Piracy is a crime of convenience, after all.

[plrichard]

Yare;265019']For anyone unaware, the PC version of Assassin's Creed II's DRM requires the player to be logged into the Internet at all times. If you disconnect, the game boots you and you have to play from the last checkpoint you reached when you were still online.

The point of video game DRM isn't to stop piracy, but to delay a bit so more sales can be made. Piracy is a crime of convenience, after all.

I understand your point, Yare, but the DRM for Ubisoft just just ridiculous. Say I take my laptop with me on a trip somewhere where I'm unsure of my status of being able to connect to the internet. I wouldn't even bother bringing Assassin's Creed II. (by the way I have ACII for Xbox 360 so it really doesn't affect me but I just think it's pathetic). I'm all for the ability to protect games that are made because the developers deserve their money but I guarantee you that someone will crack Ubisoft's new DRM and then it will actually make more sense to pirate the game than to be honest and purchase it and that's when DRM becomes pathetic.

[Hassat Hunter]

Good DRM doesn't force people to pirate games just to PLAY the darn thing in the first place.

Or... so I believe.

[taumel]

Just vote with your money. If you don't like it, then just don't buy it. Money is the language, most companies understand.

Personally i would prefer if the DVDs would ship without a copy protection because i'm not fond of swapping discs in my drive(s). I'm not sure about the benefits of it as a) it's in my way, b) No-DVD-Patches are up pretty fast, c) when the DVDs are released, the games are around for a long time already (normally it takes one to three days until the games&cracks are available) and d) it could be some nice preorder-look-how-nice-we-are-magic.

Beside of the season-DVDs TTG is doing a nice job. I would say they are on the more pleasing side of things. The best are Indie games with just no protection at all, then there come those where you have to activate your game (serial/account), then we do have online activation (like TTG) and so on. On the other side, in the evil corner, we do have stuff like Ubisoft is trying out.

Client&server models can be hacked and pirated as well but, nah, a "it would take too long"-discussion.

Btw, does anyone know how many copies i'm allowed to install? Does there exist any official number? Does it vary from game to game? ...

[jweir]

Btw, does anyone know how many copies i'm allowed to install? Does there exist any official number? Does it vary from game to game? ...

It's a crazy high amount, and each install is counted against you when it's a completely different machine (or seen as one like significant hardware changes). A re-install on the same machine doesn't count against you, but I believe you have 11 or so. Granted, I never see that number said anymore, but I think that's what it at least was.

[vectorm12]

This evening I felt like replaying my Sam & Max Season one DVD, just because I enjoyed it a whole lot and haven't been able to get a hold of a copy of Season 2 (if it exists) yet. In any case to my horror I noticed that the autorun executable attempts to access my registry. Since I'm running windows 7 64bit it's not capable of doing so thus I cannot install or play my game anymore as I no longer have a computer running anything else than windows 7 64 or Vista 64.

Now I'm most likely capable enough to get the game running within minutes using one of many hacked executes available to download.

However since I prefer not having to trust unsigned and most often unsecured executes downloaded from the internet I'd much rather like an "official" solution to my problem.

As you guys at TTG seem hellbent on keeping these incompatible and downright infuriating DRMs on your products I urge you to atleast give me the option of registering my DVD with your website and give me the option of at least downloading the game that I (after all) have purchased the right to play at any given time.

I can understand your argument that windows 7 isn't a supported OS but given the fact that it's fundamentally the same platform as Vista there is no reason not to support it. This is especially true as you continue to sell the Season in your store.

Now I also understand that the incompatibility is most likely due to the fact that the versions of SecuROM available at this time are non 64bit native.

This is also why I choose make this post in here as I am I clear example of how poorly DRM technology is performing.

Now at this point I've got three choices.

Nr. 1: is run the game in virtual machine with a compatible OS(Vista32/XP) and go through the ordeal of getting everything working as intended inside that emulated machine.

Nr. 2: Would be downloading a hacked execute for the game and risk dodgy code etc potentially causing damage to my system.

Nr 3: Combine the first two options and get the best out of the situation but also most likely causing me hours of frustrations over something this trivial.

Now I'm gonna chime in with a lot of other users here and make two suggestions.

1: Please release all future DVDs without builtin DRM(regardless of the discussion if it installs reg keys/hooks/files on the system) First of all your games aren't your typical massmarket games. Customers who buy your games are most likely much older and more wealthy than your average CoD2 customer.(Don't take that as a bad thing, I believe if there's any hope for this industry it's us mature "gamers"). Besides that point there's also the fact that by the time your games hit the stands as DVDs they have lost most of their buzz besides within the "core" customers, which most likely reduces if not eliminates the damage piracy would cause. I will most likely never be okay with purchasing a "non physical" copy of any game as long as I cannot personally guarantee myself to be able to replay this game in 10 years and I am most likely not your only customer who feels this way.

2. If suggestion one is still totally out of reasonable consideration for you guys. Give me an option to register my DVD on your website giving me the option to download the software from there (alá battle.net) and install it to give me some sense of "security" about my purchase and forward compatibility.

Now to the positive part:

I LOVE your games and it's been a real torture waiting for your games to reach DVDs. Keep up the good work and I hope I'm gonna see loads more of Guybrush from here on.

(sidenote) I noticed that I could in fact install and play the game on my system simply by bypassing the autorun executable but I still consider the points in my post vaild.

[jweir]

Vector, the autorun is broken in Vista/7 whether you have 32/64 bit. It's a minor nuisance because as you've pointed out you can still go around it and install directly from the source files. The autorun has nothing to do with DRM, and a virtual machine is not necessary. Also, why are you so quick to assume that Telltale's market is a much older audience? I've seen plenty of die hard Telltale fans that are younger. I really don't see the point of your post unless you were ultimately hoping to make copies of the game and give it to friends. If that was the case, the DRM is doing it's job, if not, then you have nothing to gripe about really. I believe unless you bought the disc at retail, (not at a convention or online directly from Telltale) you already have access to downloads of all of the games located within the joystick icon at the top of the site ("My Games"). Do you still have other concerns?

[vectorm12]

Also, why are you so quick to assume that Telltale's market is a much older audience? I've seen plenty of die hard Telltale fans that are younger. I really don't see the point of your post unless you were ultimately hoping to make copies of the game and give it to friends.

I'll agree to the fact that my term "older" was a little too vague. I myself am only 26 but by the overall age I am fairly certain I would be classified as "older" as I've been playing games for far longer than most other active "gamers" today. Even more so is that the "point & click" adventures have been a dying breed for years and most players who have even come across these types of games are most likely above the average age. Mainly because of the diminishing amount of games that has been produced lately.

Secondly your assumption that I am advocating for DRM free games is simply to copy the game to hand out to my "friends" is faulty in more than one point. First of all I could just as easily have downloaded a hacked version of the game and handed out to any of my friends if I wished to do so.

I'll make it clear right now that I have a game library comprised of over a hundred games just from the current- and last-gen consoles. On top of that I've most likely got 100+ games for PC starting back at DOS titles. Not to mention my countless shoe boxes full of AMIGA titles all of which are original.
If I was indeed a pirate I wouldn't have bothered signing up for an account here advocating my thoughts and opinion here as I wouldn't even be affected by them(not just referring to DRM if you'd even bothered reading my entire post). Also your idea that the Autorun.exe looking up registry keys isn't related to DRM seems highly questionable as there is no clear reason for a simple autorun application to actually do so. I do however not by any means condone or accept piracy of any shape or form.

I believe unless you bought the disc at retail, (not at a convention or online directly from Telltale) you already have access to downloads of all of the games located within the joystick icon at the top of the site ("My Games").

I buy all my games in retail as I enjoy the experience of shopping for games. As I did not I do not currently have any way(that I've discovered) to digitally verify my purchase, thus no games in the ("My Games") tab. By the tone of your response I'd say you're making it sound like my game purchased the "traditional" way isn't worth as much as your digital copy? In the end it's a product marketed by Telltale and their distribution channels which means I'm still their customer even if they prefer to cut out the "middle man".

My point remains valid despite your reply and assumptions.

[jweir]

I'm sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but buying directly from Telltale provides a disc with cutscenes viewable through a DVD player and loads of extras. I value a physical copy as much as the next person and that can be accomplished for only the cost of shipping as well as digital copies. I personally see much more value in the digital and physical copies for one cost, but to each their own I guess.

[taumel]

It's a crazy high amount, and each install is counted against you when it's a completely different machine (or seen as one like significant hardware changes). A re-install on the same machine doesn't count against you, but I believe you have 11 or so. Granted, I never see that number said anymore, but I think that's what it at least was.
Okay, well, any official numbers around as well or is this more held as a secret?

Bioshock was the first game i ran into problems with such issues. After exchanging computers and swapping the os i ran out of serials. Afterwards i was told that i could have used a tool to rescue those keys but in the end it was easier going another route.

[jweir]

taumel, they said they've only had the situation arise of needing to give more activations once. I seriously wouldn't worry about it, and they will help you if you truly do run out of activations.

[taumel]

Yep i would suspect the same. I'm just curious to know the limit(s). Maybe i should just try one out. :O)

[DjNDB]

Yep i would suspect the same. I'm just curious to know the limit(s). Maybe i should just try one out. :O)

Here's the most accurate description (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=118633#post118633) I could find. Tabacco was a Telltale Games employee.

[taumel]

Ah, thanks! Well, so no illuminati at TTG, otherwise they might have choosen the 23 instead.

[Will]

I haven't commented officially, since I'm not sure it is still 20. I *THINK* it is, but I'm not 100% sure. But yeah, it's more than you will reasonably use in a lifetime.

[taumel]

No problem, thanks!

[StingingVelvet]

I just wanted to make my first ever post here to say:

A disc check is a GOOD thing. The concern with DRM is that it will limit gameplay in the future. The activation model, which some here seem to prefer over a simple disc check, would severely limit access to the games if Telltale were to ever disappear (which will hopefully not happen for a very long time, but still).

Developers close, companies fold, the reason DRM is annoying from my point of view is it limits access to games after these events occur, or even before that in the case of limited activations.

So, THANK YOU Telltale for releasing DVDs with only a disc check, that is why I buy them and why I feel secure in buying the games online to begin with. Your hassle-free and activation-free DRM on the DVDs is MUCH appreciated by this fan.

Good day.

[torturedutopian]

Yep, it's definitely annoying. I now tend to give my money to developers that support multiple platforms and use no DRM, because it's really annoying that what you buy turns out to be less usable that what it would be if you had pirated it...

[vectorm12]

I haven't commented officially, since I'm not sure it is still 20. I *THINK* it is, but I'm not 100% sure. But yeah, it's more than you will reasonably use in a lifetime.

Just noticed this reply. Not to question where you got your data from but a realworld example of mine would be Beneath a Steel sky published in 1994. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I've reinstalled this game in one shape or form on every computer system I've ever owned since then which amount to a heck of a lot more than 20 installations on different hardware IDs.

I'd say that at most if it's a top notch game we're talking about 20 activations would be good for about 20 years at the most. Not even close to a lifetime in my book. If I were to be limited in this way I would in 20 years time or less probably have to pirate TMI just because I've run out of activations/or the service being discontinued(by far the most likely event). Mind you in my world the one genre that gives the most replay value are point&clicks. You would never have caught me playing Bioshock again after the initial playthrough...

Again this is only me and I don't buy games controlled by activationlimiting DRM, I buy the DVDs you release nothing else.

[Sir Primalform Magnifico]

Original post.


Ah. So it's your fault the W&G (and as far as I can tell ToMI) discs use online activation. Thanks a lot.

I'm very anti-DRM for what it's worth but I prefer disc-in-drive to online activation because at least I'm not dependant on external servers to allow me to play the game I bought. The W&G disc is more useful as a coaster considering it's basically the same as me downloading the episodes and burning them to DVD. What if I want to replay these games in 50 years? I'll be 72, what about TTG? Will they still have the activation servers running? Will they still even exist? I want a legally binding contract that they will continue to provide the service until the fall of civilisation.

I just wanted to make my first ever post here to say:

A disc check is a GOOD thing. The concern with DRM is that it will limit gameplay in the future. The activation model, which some here seem to prefer over a simple disc check, would severely limit access to the games if Telltale were to ever disappear (which will hopefully not happen for a very long time, but still).

Developers close, companies fold, the reason DRM is annoying from my point of view is it limits access to games after these events occur, or even before that in the case of limited activations.

So, THANK YOU Telltale for releasing DVDs with only a disc check, that is why I buy them and why I feel secure in buying the games online to begin with. Your hassle-free and activation-free DRM on the DVDs is MUCH appreciated by this fan.

Good day.

Correction... they did use disc checks but it seems those days are over. I normally steer clear of digitally distributed games with DRM, I made the exception for TTG because of the discs. I bought the games with the understanding that my disc wouldn't need online activation. The FAQ says this clearly:

Yes, but we try to keep it as low-key and non-annoying as possible. Our downloadable games use a version of SecuROM that requires online activation. Our disc-based games also use SecuROM. Disc games don't require online activation, but the disc must be in the drive while you play.

[corruptbiggins]

As far as I know only the Wallace & Gromit disc uses online activation. The ToMI disc, as far as I'm aware, doesn't have any DRM whatsoever and the chapters don't use online activation. I don't think the normal launcher is even used, a chapter just loads up straight away after launching it.