What's the more human thing to do in this series?

[Joshua1991]

What do you think is the more human thing to do in this series? As a person with morals etc. have you

-Killed Larry with Kenny (Ep 2)
-Sacrificed Ben (Ep 4)

done any of this in the game?

[Dreamjbk]

I killed Larry. Kenny was right Larry would kill us all

[Rock114]

Either of those choices can be argued as being morally right. I think letting Ben die was wrong, however. Personally, I think it was morally right to kill Larry and keep him from coming back, which would have resulted in the deaths of everyone in the meat locker, Kat and Duck, along with Carley/Doug and Ben. My Lee doesn't risk the lives of the entire group just for one person who, IMO, was dead anyway. That doesn't mean I liked doing it.

[Ninnuendo]

There's no justifiable reason for letting Ben die. As for Larry, how difficult would it have been to wait a few moments and then smash in Zombie Larry's head? Kenny made a choice that was not his to make.

[aperose]

If Ben winds up causing someone's death in Ep 5 AGAIN, say Clem for example, and killing him in 4 would've prevented that, would you still say it wasn't justifiable to kill him? In the same way Larry was a threat to the group (honestly, think we should've gotten rid of him and Lilly earlier) Ben is too. In the ZA you have to have people you can trust to have your back. Ben's fuckups aren't even because he dislikes you, it's because he is incompetent and nothing will fix that.

[rachellouise85]

I didn't kill either.
I don't see how can justify something, using what may or may not happen in the future.

[Malphaxis]

In a Z.A., natural selection would reassert it self. The weak, sickly those unable to adapt would be expendable for the betterment of the whole, group or tribe so to speak. Going against that would be to the detriment of the remnants of humanity as a whole. It's one of the ways I felt Crawford was doomed to failure as children would be precious and necessary to the survival of the human species.

[CeePeeBee]

I often find myself forgetting what I wanted my character to be like, and reacting in the moment, which I think uniquely sets this game apart from others. The moral ambiguity is the best thing and it's USP.

Taking the Larry and Ben things in turn;

Larry: I chose to kill him. He would turn, we would die, and I didn't know what would happen by deciding otherwise, however I knew EXACTLY what would happen if we killed him. I chose to know my path. I( was quite shocked that Lilly forgave or at least tolerated Lee/Kenny after that with such ease. Perhaps this indicates that whilst morally, killing can't be condoned, the fact the ZPoc has arrived means morals are out of the window, and only survival matters.

Ben: The guy is a complete f*&k up. He did what he thought was right with the bandits...i can deal with that. However on 3 occasions he left Clem alone on her own, despite explicit instructions to the contrary. Whilst indirectly responsible for Duck and Katjaa, none of that would have happened without many circumstances before Ben's arrival (not least the ZPoc), so I could get over that. It was the Clem issue that had me thinking. In the end I remember thinking, I might get the opportunity to utilise Ben in a tough situation later in the game, so chose to save him.

Only thing I want to say is that I noticed that some of the dialogue in Ep 4 was less deep. Answering questions positively and then negatively produced dramatic u-turns by the characters (not least when asking for help to save Clem).

Great game though...roll on Ep 5 and Season 2.

[kingnounours]

For me none of this propositions really are "human", it's more a question of wether or not doing it will give something in our survival chances.

For Larry I chose to kill him after a moment of reflexion, killing him made me guilty but we couldn't know if he would come back as a zombie or not. And it was a too big risk.
For Ben I chose to save him because even if he caused a lot of trouble indirectly there's no real reason to kill someone even if he is a really bad guy, and I think I like this character even so he is not brave.

[Evinshir]

If Ben winds up causing someone's death in Ep 5 AGAIN, say Clem for example, and killing him in 4 would've prevented that, would you still say it wasn't justifiable to kill him? In the same way Larry was a threat to the group (honestly, think we should've gotten rid of him and Lilly earlier) Ben is too. In the ZA you have to have people you can trust to have your back. Ben's fuckups aren't even because he dislikes you, it's because he is incompetent and nothing will fix that.

Actually, it would still be ethically and morally wrong to let Ben die if you could save him. You can't predict the future, and Ben's screw-ups are his responsibility - not yours. You can't sacrifice a person for what they *might* do. If you follow that logic, then Clem should be sacrificed because as a child she *might* draw the zombies to you through her inexperience. It's a slippery slope trying to claim that it's justifiable to kill Ben.

Ben's fuck-ups are because the rest of the group don't pay attention to him and don't keep him in the loop.

- The Bandits fuck-up was because Lily and Kenny engendered a hostile and distrustful atmosphere at the motel - so Ben was too scared to tell anyone what he was up to.
- Carly's death was purely Lily's own paranoia brought about by Kenny's murder of her father. You can't blame Ben for something that was out of his control.
- The school attack was because nobody told Ben that the zombies had gotten that far into the building and had send him out looking for something like an axe to break down the door. How hard would it have been for Kenny to say "oh, and don't take the axe out of the door."
- Brie's death was because Kenny decided to force a vote when everyone's lives were in serious danger. Ben was stupid to tell Kenny, but he's a kid trying to deal with guilt that KENNY had been unwittingly been dumping on him.

The fact is, the more people blame Ben then the more likely he'll screw up. What Ben needs is to have someone believe in him and keep him informed rather than just boss him around. I believe he's going to step up to the plate in the final episode.

As for Larry - again, nobody knew if he would come back as a zombie or if he could be resuscitated before he turned. They should have tried to resuscitate him and been ready to kill him if he ended up turning.

[HelloCthulhu]

There's no justifiable reason for letting Ben die.
How about survival instincts? If someone is constantly putting your life or the life of a loved one at risk, would you not kill to protect them? Lets give another example...a person is crying loudly in pain and he wont listen to reason...would you do whatever it took to shut him up if it would save your life?

Ben's fuck-ups are because the rest of the group don't pay attention to him and don't keep him in the loop.
How unclear is it when you say "if anything happens to clementine while I'm gone it is your ass." And then HE LOSES HER?!

[Pellet]

Larry was dead anyways.
As soon as he grabbed his chest i knew that we were way too far from the motor inn, and way too close to these cannibals for him to come out of that locker a survivor. And two heart attacks in 2 episodes, this couldve been a theme in the next couple of episodes
Episode 3: Larry- The bandits are att........... thump.
Lee- Damnit not this again
Then in episode 4 Omid could've had a roomate

[Evinshir]

How unclear is it when you say "if anything happens to clementine while I'm gone it is your ass." And then HE LOSES HER?!
When he gets called upstairs to help a man with a broken leg and Clem had promised to stay in the house while Lee was out?

Clementine was to blame, not Ben. She chose to sneak out when she had the chance. Ben's only fault there was to trust that she'd respect Lee's wishes.

Again - Ben gets blamed for the actions of others. It's not incompetence, just another honest mistake that anyone could make. What's he supposed to do? Say no to Christa when she asks for his help because he has to sit in a room and watch a girl. Then get accused of using Clem as an excuse for not doing anything?

Beyond that - that's still no reason to let him die.

[HelloCthulhu]

When he gets called upstairs to help a man with a broken leg and Clem had promised to stay in the house while Lee was out?

Clementine was to blame, not Ben. She chose to sneak out when she had the chance. Ben's only fault there was to trust that she'd respect Lee's wishes.

Again - Ben gets blamed for the actions of others. It's not incompetence, just another honest mistake that anyone could make. What's he supposed to do? Say no to Christa when she asks for his help because he has to sit in a room and watch a girl. Then get accused of using Clem as an excuse for not doing anything?

Beyond that - that's still no reason to let him die.
as if that is the first time he has fucked up...and I mean royally. Reallly, you are with a group of survivors and you see an axe in the door holding it closed...you pick it up? You are with a little girl and you have a gun and you leave her to the zombies? Despite being told implicitly that telling kenny would be a bad fucking idea at this time, and after he says he understands you...he does it anyway at the worst fucking time?

[Malphaxis]

Nobody told Ben not to remove the axe from the door handles holding back the herd of Zs? Really? ' 'cause he's not a child & if he so incapable of making critical observations then he's not worth having in the group or risking anyones skin for.
What value has he brought to the group? What does Ben bring to the table? I you hadnt happened along on him and his party of misfits he would have died in the forest with them. So other than a disaster looking to happen and another mouth to feed what use is he to anyones survival , keeping in mind this isnt normal modern polite society..
Its the diff between Ricks, Shanes & the Govenors style of leadership, and youll notice how Rick becomes less.his "lawful good" self as time goes on and he adapts to the world of a ZA.

[DreadMagus]

No, and no.

Though, looking back, saving Larry was impractical.

If I ran it again, I'd be first in line to give him a salt-lick transplant.

[Evinshir]

Nobody told Ben not to remove the axe from the door handles holding back the herd of Zs? Really? ' 'cause he's not a child & if he so incapable of making critical observations then he's not worth having in the group or risking anyones skin for.
What value has he brought to the group? What does Ben bring to the table? I you hadnt happened along on him and his party of misfits he would have died in the forest with them. So other than a disaster looking to happen and another mouth to feed what use is he to anyones survival , keeping in mind this isnt normal modern polite society..
Its the diff between Ricks, Shanes & the Govenors style of leadership, and youll notice how Rick becomes less.his "lawful good" self as time goes on and he adapts to the world of a ZA.

I feel that being in a zombie apocalypse is even more reason to value every life. Measuring people by their "value" is a sure fire way to guarantee you don't survive. The whole point we developed a modern polite society is because humanity as a species worked out early on that loners don't last long. If you devalue people, they will devalue you. Which means they are more likely to let you die. How you treat your weakest is a measure of how well you will be treated at your weakest moment.

I'd save Ben every time.

[Phoenix VII]

Ben: The kid has been a complete screw-up since Day 1. Even if he was too scared to talk to Kenny or Lilly he had no excuse to not talk to Lee and frankly, in the ZA, you shouldn't be giving away supplies, let alone medicine, without the consent of the group. Due to there being an unknown thief in the group, Lilly grew more paranoid, the bandits attack anyway while the group is unprepared after the supplies are found, Duck, Katjaa, and Carley/Doug die, Kenny loses his family, and you lose all the supplies and medicine you had to leave behind in the motel. Then Chuck dies because Ben is too much a coward to shoot a few walkers and too panicky to grab Clem's hand when he runs. Then he gets a snarky attitude for the first half of Ep. 4 even though he can't do his one job which is to keep an eye on Clem and tries to talk back when Lee gets rightfully upset after Clem shows up in the street where you're fighting Molly and again when she disappears before the boat is found. Finally, Crawford, Brie dies, and the whole group could've died if things went just a little worse all because Ben takes a hatchet that is clearly barring the only door that's between you and the walkers. Even if you don't know that there are walkers in the building, you know there are walkers outside, and you shouldn't remove what's blocking the only door between your group and the walkers without even checking with anyone else first. On the plus side, Ben's just a naive, generally good-natured, timid, dumb-as-bricks kid which unfortunately doesn't make the people that die due to him any less dead. By the end of Ep. 4 getting rid of Ben is no longer a matter of morality, IMO, it's just good sense. I'd give him to Vernon instead, if I had a choice, but I didn't.

Larry: Since I know CPR alone doesn't really work for heart attack victims now, there's only 1 valid choice, IMO, since Larry coming back as a walker is more a matter of when than if. And when Larry comes back, if the group is still in the meat-locker, Lee and Kenny alone won't be able to beat Walker Larry and it will result in everyone in that room dying.

[Milosuperspesh]

TO evin and other i saved ben group members..

What are you smokin ?

so regardless of how many times ben has caused death you'd keep him with you ?

as i pointed out in one of my threads, link here http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37857

seriously common sense is extinct..

So saving every life no matter the pro's and cons of the choice is frankly mind boggling.

survivor a) oh look a guy with an arm trapped needs help lets save him

result of a) he dies from blood loss, turns and bites the nurse/medic,

result a2) the medic then needs help from a less qualified person

result a3) the medic suffers the same fate as result a

this cycle repeats till someone with a half a brain puts the walkers down/ leaves the camp.

thats pretty much what bens done.

larry was an asshole and was a ticking time bomb once his meds ran out.

regardless of who 'needed' ben more, ben made lee a deal to protect clem, he decided a guy with a bad leg was more important. when he's already shown how useless he is why would christa rely on him ? true it's abit messy and gory to involve clem but she'd be way more usefull.

to save everyone is noble and shows morale fibre and your humanity and the 'future generations' would be proud BUT if there's no one left to tell your story because all the stupid people killed your group..your story ends....

so i'll close this statment with two outcomes:

if ben survives and becomes a hero and doesn't cause any more death = makes dropping him stupid and makes a mockery of the character's basic premise in that he's an idiot.

if ben dies like the stupid bitch he is with more deaths caused by his naivity = i will laugh my man boobs off to the point where they reach orbit and are shot down as ufo's

[Malphaxis]

to save everyone is noble and shows morale fibre and your humanity and the 'future generations' would be proud BUT if there's no one left to tell your story because all the stupid people killed your group..your story ends....



And thats it in a nutshell.
You do have such a uniquely eloquent way of slicing through the minutia you word smith you. :cool:

[Evinshir]

to save everyone is noble and shows morale fibre and your humanity and the 'future generations' would be proud BUT if there's no one left to tell your story because all the stupid people killed your group..your story ends....

so i'll close this statment with two outcomes:

if ben survives and becomes a hero and doesn't cause any more death = makes dropping him stupid and makes a mockery of the character's basic premise in that he's an idiot.

Except that isn't his basic premise. His basic premise is that he's a teenager seriously out of his depth trying to survive an apocalypse. YOU have made the assumption that he's an idiot.

I, however, give TTG more credit than making their characters one note stereotypes. So if Ben does just end up being stupid, I will be surprised. Because that isn't how he has been represented in the actual game. That is just how some people have chosen to interpret his character.

Edit: You also make a fundamental flaw in your argument by assuming that sticking to your morals guarantees death. The point is, if you have reason to believe that someone WILL get you killed, then you find a way to not put them in those situations. You don't make them the leader, you don't give them the riskiest job. You work with them and help them get over their shortcomings. THAT's how you survive. Not by killing them off.

[SonnyN18]

Either of those choices can be argued as being morally right. I think letting Ben die was wrong, however. Personally, I think it was morally right to kill Larry and keep him from coming back, which would have resulted in the deaths of everyone in the meat locker, Kat and Duck, along with Carley/Doug and Ben. My Lee doesn't risk the lives of the entire group just for one person who, IMO, was dead anyway. That doesn't mean I liked doing it.

I would have agreed to kill Larry if he was was BITTEN but his status was so ambiguous that it was wrong to be hasty and kill someone when you have no idea. It's the only time when I disagreed with Kenny.

[rachellouise85]

If there had been more selections, I would have restrained Larry using clothes and salt licks. It would be funny if he woke up with no shirt and two guys standing over him in their underwear. Plus, there would be two guys in their underwear xd. Luckily ,for some, some people don't see being an asshole, or inexperienced etc. as big enough reasons for killing someone.

This is probably why crawford fell, when things started going wrong, rather than looking out for each other,they were only looking out for themselves - screw everyone else.

[Milosuperspesh]

.

Edit: You also make a fundamental flaw in your argument by assuming that sticking to your morals guarantees death. The point is, if you have reason to believe that someone WILL get you killed, then you find a way to not put them in those situations. You don't make them the leader, you don't give them the riskiest job. You work with them and help them get over their shortcomings. THAT's how you survive. Not by killing them off.

sounds alot like what your doing more so than me..

ben wasn't given any sort of big responcibilty other than clem, YET he still fucked up and got people killed..

lee has tried to set him straight in a baptism of fire kinda way and warned him later on he's seconds from death and he says drop me....

ben gave up he wanted to die..why would you go against his wishes? why would you allow an obvious suicidal person to stay with you ? all he's going to do is find danger and try to die which then leads others in to the same situation to 'save him' which then causes more problems.

oh yeah it's human it's moraly rich and good for everyone

seriously...

[SonnyN18]

sounds alot like what your doing more so than me..

ben wasn't given any sort of big responcibilty other than clem, YET he still fucked up and got people killed..

lee has tried to set him straight in a baptism of fire kinda way and warned him later on he's seconds from death and he says drop me....

ben gave up he wanted to die..why would you go against his wishes? why would you allow an obvious suicidal person to stay with you ? all he's going to do is find danger and try to die which then leads others in to the same situation to 'save him' which then causes more problems.

oh yeah it's human it's moraly rich and good for everyone

seriously...
He's not suicidal, the only reason he wanted to be dropped is because he thought doing that it would give time for the rest of us to get away from the walkers in crawford. So I don't know where trying to get here.
seriously...

[HelloCthulhu]

He's not suicidal, the only reason he wanted to be dropped is because he thought doing that it would give time for the rest of us to get away from the walkers in crawford. So I don't know where trying to get here.
seriously...

So the first time he can be of use to the group and you take that away from him?

[Milosuperspesh]

suicide = choosing to end your life on your own terms, ben asked to be dropped and let go of lee's hand.

lol cthulu nice point.

almost can't be arsed with this thread anymore....

[Malphaxis]

When decisions need to be made more often than not you don't have the luxury of pausing to gather your thoughts, questioning what's the moral call or discussing with the group & thinking it through. It needs to be an instinctual & reactionary response.
And I think this is where many of you've missed the boat.
I'm not trying to tell you you need to give up on virtue & I'm not Satan tempting you to relinquish your soul or to come to the dark side.
Lemme put it this way, in a time before modern society, humans would gather at the camp fire and listen to the elders tales of hunts and conflicts.
To the "warriors" and young adults it was a given that the elders knew what they were talking about because through their leadership the tribe/group had survived thus far. There was simply no place for moral ambiguity. To ignore the wisdom was foolhardy and placed the lives of everyone at risk. Furthermore there was no place for individual think, the group/tribe was more important than any one member, and the group would harshly punish or cast out those who didn't conform, more often than not resulting in death.
In a ZA or any world wide extinction event those who would be able to revert to early mans survival modes & life styles would be the ones who'd survive. This isn't a question of judgment, it's a simple fact. There would be no "right" to survive nor would there be any moral or human aspect to it. You simply would or would not.
If the species prevailed then once again society would evolve to a point where there would be a place for personal liberty, rights and moral judgment, but only if.

[Milosuperspesh]

.
And I think this is where many of you've missed the boat.


putting it mildly ;)

all this pro ben stuff is repeating he has rights, he's human, it's moral to save him.

but as mal has put it assuming the pro ben camp did this on the 'first' play through then it may hold water 'i did it for clem'.. so your reasoning for saving ben is an 8yr old girl who likes everyone ? yet is a clear danger to the group ? oh it doesn't matter if clems ok..

Thats my beef with you people the logic your using is bullshit.

oh sure that applies to others if clem likes them they are safe but wait, she liked carley(not sure on doug), boom head shot, she liked duck and he got bitten, she liked katjaa boom head shot...she didn't want lee to kill anyone oops we met cannibals and lee of's the lot of em..

even molly caved in to clem if you don't beat her down first..

[Viser]

but as mal has put it assuming the pro ben camp did this on the 'first' play through then it may hold water 'i did it for clem'.. so your reasoning for saving ben is an 8yr old girl who likes everyone ? yet is a clear danger to the group ? oh it doesn't matter if clems ok..

I didn't bring Clem to Crawford so that reasoning doesn't really apply to me, and I'm sure it doesn't apply to many other people. And yeah, this discussion isn't really going anywhere, you're not gonna convince pro-Ben people you're right and we're not gonna convince you we're right XD

Anyhow, I just think people are exaggerating on how much of a threat Ben could be. It's not like he's gonna keep making mistakes forever, any normal person would learn from those mistakes so the situation doesn't repeat itself, but that's just the way I think.

[Milosuperspesh]

i haven't 'not taken clem' yet so i dunno how that affects things. (don't spoil it)

the thing is ben is thinking he's doing good, he actually believes that right up to the last second before things go tits up.

3rd times the charm..

[Mrcamel]

The thing I don't understand is if people believe that Ben was suicidal, if you chose to save him Lee pulls Ben up Ben grabs onto Lee as well I think he could have done more to make Lee let go. I know some people don't but I like Ben's character he's just a kid and sure he makes alot of mistakes but I just think that after witnessing all his classmates die and I think that shook him up not an excuse for him to be 'stupid' but if your gonna chuck people out for being incompetent then your just like the people in Crawford leting people die because they aren't perfect or fit in

[SonnyN18]

So the first time he can be of use to the group and you take that away from him?

Why do you think I pulled him up? I did it because he is a part of this group. I gave him a chance to prove himself and be a help to this group. I saw that when he wanted to sacrifice himself that he wants to help the group, for better or worse. Ben even says if you bring him along to find Clementine that he wants to make things right with Clem and Kenny. Ben is more than a sacrificial chess piece. So I don't see how I'm "taking away a chance for him to be a use to the group". I've just given him more chances to do something right.

[Milosuperspesh]

cthulu mean't that if you drop him he allows the group to escape by buying them time

which they do ANYWAY.

if you pull him up all you get is a stink eye of kenny and clem is thankfull for a few seconds before she asks about her parents.

so regardless of how much stupid shit ben does you going to keep saving him and letting him live ?

goes back to my previous point about sooner or later there's going to be no one left.

[SonnyN18]

cthulu mean't that if you drop him he allows the group to escape by buying them time

which they do ANYWAY.

if you pull him up all you get is a stink eye of kenny and clem is thankfull for a few seconds before she asks about her parents.

so regardless of how much stupid shit ben does you going to keep saving him and letting him live ?

goes back to my previous point about sooner or later there's going to be no one left.

You think I care about what Kenny and Clem thinks of my decisions? Sure they effect some of them but not when deciding Ben's fate. Is Ben stupid? Yes. But letting him go because you think that Ben is useless? We'd be no better than the people at Crawford.

[Milosuperspesh]

sonny the thing about crawford was it only fell when anna wouldn't give up her baby and so fought her way out to protect it. which was bound to happen with a no pregancy rule. but it would of fell anyway.

ben being useless is down to him being stupid and doing the wrong thing. and we are not crawford. so that as a debate topic is irrelavant as we do not live by those rules in the game.

my reason ben should die is because no matter what he does, it is a combo of him being useless, being a danger to himself and others and constantly bitching about being left out and then when given something he fucks it up. lost count how many times ive said it now..

[SonnyN18]

sonny the thing about crawford was it only fell when anna wouldn't give up her baby and so fought her way out to protect it. which was bound to happen with a no pregancy rule. but it would of fell anyway.

ben being useless is down to him being stupid and doing the wrong thing. and we are not crawford. so that as a debate topic is irrelavant as we do not live by those rules in the game.

my reason ben should die is because no matter what he does, it is a combo of him being useless, being a danger to himself and others and constantly bitching about being left out and then when given something he fucks it up. lost count how many times ive said it now..

Irrelevant? Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good excuse. I refer you to my previous answer.

[rachellouise85]

I wouldn't bother. Everyone else's logic is bull etc. which is a great use of logic Probably why it seems most people are ignoring him. So I've joined them.

[Freder58]

Larry is a tough call, but let's be clear about Ben: You are not LETTING Ben die. You are MURDERING him. Your choice is to pull him up, or let him go. Letting him go is a CHOICE. If it's within your power to pull him up, then any other choice is killing him, not "letting" him die. This is why I had to save him, even though I was as angry at him as anyone. And now I'm glad that I did.

[Milosuperspesh]

actually some peoples logic does makes sense to me,

but saying campman is the owner of the car we looted is stupid ,as i already stated and by posting in the thread with a mild reference to what i said out of context isn't ignoring...

saying ben will change his ways in the last ep is also stupid yet wishfull thinking..

but these are my opinions/views/theories

and i'm sticking to em as you are too

so what we have here is good ol inpass.

failed argument against me here, can't come out with anything to prove your point pick one word out and put a question mark next to it good job. fell in to my trap nicely...

we are not part of crawford, we are not involved with them, why should their rules apply ? oh look we have clem 8 yrs old instantly nullifying the children rules, as for health issues who knows ? age well larry was the oldest with a dodgy heart so he would of been gone.

making a comparison to them is fair enough in 'two' cases but this about ben not larry or clem and since by the rule of ben having no skills, no kind of talent, that imo is useless...

[Freder58]

Sonny is right.

[Milosuperspesh]

thank you for your input fred

care to use a quote to be more precise ?

[Viser]

But I don't understand why you think Ben can't change. That doesn't make sense, people change all the time... especially after going through a lot, like Ben did.

[Mrcamel]

He's well intentioned there's no doubt there but I think at times he just gets too scared or lacks common sense that's hard to change but not enough to leave him to plummet to his death when he's just a kid

[Milosuperspesh]

do people change ?

did larry ?

did lilly ?

has kenny ?

has clem ?

[Viser]

Larry died and Lilly left the group at episode 3.

Kenny has definitely changed, and you realize that when Katjaa asks what happened in the meatlocker. She knows Kenny's changing and she doesn't like it.

And so has Clem, on episode 4 she starts disobbeying Lee and wanting to participate more (like going to Crawford, exploring the house, going under the door)...

Well, Clem even comments on how Ben doesn't look the same when they come back from Crawford if you save him.

But real-life people are capable of changing too, you don't really need in-game examples to know that Ben could change...

[Evinshir]

do people change ?

did larry ?

Actually he did. On a number of occasions in episode 2 he showed signs of softening to Lee if Lee showed support for Lily.

did lilly ?
Again, yes. The more Lee backs Lily, the more she is willing to trust him.

has kenny ?
Definitely! Depending on events, Kenny becomes either more trusting of Lee or becomes more self-serving.

has clem ?
Yes again. She goes from being a kid who hides and is scared to a confident child who stands up for what she believes in and the people she trusts.

Seriously? You're going to try to argue that people don't change in a story that's all about how people change when put under pressure.

The whole point of the zombie horror genre is about how exceptional circumstances can change people. How the seemingly nice teacher can become a heartless killer in the name of survival. Or how a murderer can find redemption by fighting to save the weak and protect them.

You really don't know people if you think they can't change.

[Mrcamel]

depends what you mean in terms of Larry knew that Lee was a muderer so he was naturally wary but admittedly he didn't change much. Lilly did as at the start of the game she was good friends with carley and was a calm and collected leader of the group she then loses control of the group goes through alot of stress and kills carley and also suffers her fathers death and abandons the group she formly lead or gets abadoned herself.Kenny again has he helped duck rather then save shawn at hershel's farm and with his family dead I think he replaced he's family loss with nothing he has become more selfish as a result but his motives have changed once he's safe then what? Whats he got to live for his wife and kid are dead so what's he gonna do? Clem has become a girl who used to draw ponies to an eight year old girl who shot a zombie and saved molly's life she also doesn't complain when people swear and no longer thinks as killing as bad so I would argue she has changed the most

[Milosuperspesh]

i never said people can't change i just asked for clarification, so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form..

if you noticed i left out some of the characters because they have also 'changed'



and i know people 'CAN' change but not everyone does. you see growth for other characters like christa and omid who new the group for less time and they learned and have settled in the simple fact is ben has not.

if he has i must of missed so lets show some proof of the almighty ben ?

[Viser]

i never said people can't change i just asked for clarification, so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form..

if you noticed i left out some of the characters because they have also 'changed'



and i know people 'CAN' change but not everyone does. you see growth for other characters like christa and omid who new the group for less time and they learned and have settled in the simple fact is ben has not.

if he has i must of missed so lets show some proof of the almighty ben ?

Then maybe you shouldn't have made it look like you firmly believe Ben can't change? That kinda gives off the idea that you think people can't change, sorry if I misinterpreted you, but it's not really my fault.

The experience that would be capable of changing Ben happens at the very end of the episode, we haven't had a chance to see how it really affected him. And how have Omid and Christa showed growth? The group has known them for a day or so ._.

[bdawgnit1785]

Ben became more and more useless as time went on...not a change really I guess but once he could kinda be trusted but lying repeatedly, he became a coward pretty quickly actually.

[Mrcamel]

If you want prove of Ben changing he went from a scared kid who saw his friend and teacher die and who was scared of bandits to standing up to kenny and admitting like a man it was his fault and he was sorry and vowed to help also willing to die to help the group

[Milosuperspesh]

christa didn't trust lee's way of taking care of clem she didn't like him prying in to her business she didn't like being lied too.

since lee helped save omid she's changed her mind about him and trusts lee enough to support him in his quest to save clem.

thing is i do firmly believe ben can't change but the current point on people changing is ben is the only one who won't.

If you want prove of Ben changing he went from a scared kid who saw his friend and teacher die and who was scared of bandits to standing up to kenny and admitting like a man it was his fault and he was sorry and vowed to help also willing to die to help the group

hmmm ben only fessed up cos he couldn't handle the guilt anymore for the second time lee warned him to keep his shit to him self, yet for the second time he didn't and he chose the worse time ever to air his dirty laundry.. so no thats more of a step back than forward. and to give up his life for everyone else ? is a cowards way out again imo.


now to throw a spanner in the works on my second play through i saved him, for the sole purpose to see if my insight in to bens mind is correct.

bring on the flames...

[Evinshir]

i never said people can't change i just asked for clarification, so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form..

Really? Putting words in your mouth?

Let me refresh your memory...

simple fact a leopard doesn't change it's spots..

So now you're saying he can change his spots?

and i know people 'CAN' change but not everyone does.

People can change if they choose to. Ben, by the end of Episode 4, chooses to. So basically you're saying that Ben can change. And you have zero facts to say he won't change. Just an opinion based on ... well your claim that people can't change but they can change but they can't.

Ummm... not particularly solid ground you're standing on there.

you see growth for other characters like christa and omid who new the group for less time and they learned and have settled in the simple fact is ben has not.

if he has i must of missed so lets show some proof of the almighty ben ?

It's not that you've missed it. It's that you've chosen to ignore it due to the attribution error that Ben = idiot. So you just wait for him to prove you right and point at that to say "see! Idiot!" But Ben's actions have changed over the course of the game and he has chosen to man up and change.

Furthermore, your claim that while people can change some won't is not sufficient enough reason to let him die. Which is the point of this argument. You cannot know who will choose to change and who won't. But you cannot remotely predict another person's actions enough to be able to say you are morally justified in letting them die.

Particularly when your argument is built on such shaky foundations as the above flip-flopping you've done.

I would go so far as to say that the only reason you are able to even consider sacrificing Ben is because it's a computer game and not real life. I see a lot of this bravado type "survival of the fittest" erroneous arguing from gamers. The thing is, in most people it seems to be more of a "look how hard I am, I can make the *tough* choices."

But choosing to let someone die because they are perceived as a liability is not making a tough choice. It's resorting to the easy way out to avoid the responsibility of choosing to let someone die when you could have saved them.

Ben has changed a lot since you first met him and he has never done anything to morally justify letting him fall to his death.

[Malphaxis]

argh
I know where my wife, a former school teaher, was coming from when she said "I just can't reach them" :confused:

So many keep using terms like moral, murder, right & wrong.
In a species extinction event the rules change.
You're still applying sociological perspective in a situation where it is no longer is a consideration.

how about, this is a different universe.
It only exists in 2 demensions.
In this alternate universe there are only degrees of foward, back, left & right.
You're talking about gravity in a universe where up & down do not exist. :eek:

[Evinshir]

argh
I know where my wife, a former school teaher, was coming from when she said "I just can't reach them" :confused:

So many keep using terms like moral, murder, right & wrong.
In a species extinction event the rules change.
You're still applying sociological perspective in a situation where it is no longer is a consideration.

how about, this is a different universe.
It only exists in 2 demensions.
In this alternate universe there are only degrees of foward, back, left & right.
You're talking about gravity in a universe where up & down do not exist. :eek:

Morality and Ethics exist to ensure the long term survival of our species. These things exist regardless of the situation, and as a matter of fact are *more* important in an extinction level event because there will always be strength in numbers. The way to ensure those numbers are willing to work together is either though tyranny - which always has a short life span - or ethical co-operation.

We see it all the time during major disasters. The people who survive are the ones who work together to help each other.

There is very little evidence to support the idea that morality is luxury. It is quite the opposite. It's what ensures our survival.

As for the second part of your post - that's purely irrelevant. Ethics and morality exist whether there's gravity, no stars, one dimension or a million. It's a poor choice of example because it has no link to what is being argued here.

Some rules are constant.

[Malphaxis]

Some rules are constant.

Sweet Jesus, NO!!
You can not fall down in a two dementional universe.

Morality and Ethics exist..
NO!!
What your sociological perspective interprets as these things is altered by the event.

okay, Im done riding this merry-go-round. :(
Carry on.

[HelloCthulhu]

But I don't understand why you think Ben can't change. That doesn't make sense, people change all the time... especially after going through a lot, like Ben did.

People do not change as long as they have no reason to. He fucks up over and over and over and you still clean up his mistakes and protect him. The first opportunity he actually has to go out like a hero and make a sacrifice for the good of the group and you people are telling me its wrong to give him a hero's send off? Him dying for the cause would be the ultimate slate cleaner. And it was. I felt he went out with dignity and bravado.

[Evinshir]

Sweet Jesus, NO!!
You can not fall down in a two dementional universe.

But that has no relevance to an argument about ethics and morality. It's like trying to argue a concept like love versus hate by talking about the mechanics of a ball point pen.

Your two dimensional universe argument has not relevance to humans surviving in a zombie apocalypse. For one, in a two dimensional universe the rules of that universe have always been constant. You can't argue it's like our world turning into a two dimensional universe - because a zombie apocalypse is nothing like that at all and trying to use that as an argument against moral behaviour is is... well... absurd.


NO!!
What your sociological perspective interpets as these things is altered by the event.

Actually it's from an anthropological and psychological perspective. Combined with anecdotal evidence and study into ethics and human nature.

Your argument is flawed at the core because you are seeing a zombie apocalypse as the equivalent of the universe changing and that this will somehow fundamentally change how humans behave. However anthropology has proven that from the dawn of time humans have had concepts of morality and the benefit of banding together to protect the weak and the elderly.

Even before humanity was homo sapien sapiens - when they were still a mix of Homo Sapiens, Australopithecus and the like, they banded into communities which protected the weak and elderly and worked together to defend their communities against predators.

The whole survival of the fittest, kill the liability? Humanity as a species has gone against that goal for about 200,000 years. That's before we even developed civilisation or the written word.

So excuse me for remaining sceptical about this fantasy that suddenly a zombie outbreak is going to undo millennia of evolution and survival instinct because of some misguided notion that survival negates morality. Some people will believe that - but as a species? No. Most people will do the moral thing even in an extinction level situation.

Edit: And if you look at the stats for this game, that is the case here too. About as to be expected.

[Evinshir]

People do not change as long as they have no reason to. He fucks up over and over and over and you still clean up his mistakes and protect him. The first opportunity he actually has to go out like a hero and make a sacrifice for the good of the group and you people are telling me its wrong to give him a hero's send off? Him dying for the cause would be the ultimate slate cleaner. And it was. I felt he went out with dignity and bravado.

Except he doesn't die for the good of the group. They had already got away by that point. His death was not a hero's send off. It was him being swallowed up by his guilt.

Furthermore, he is more valuable alive and being able to continue to help people than just falling to his death.

Romanticise it all you like - but Ben's falling to his death is not heroic. It's tragic.

[HelloCthulhu]

That sounds more like you romanticizing the value of his loss... Let's be quite frank, shall we? He brings nothing to the table. Not survival skills. Not quality commentary. Not comic relief. Nothing. His loss is incidental at best. Sweet relief from his bungling efforts at worst. Saving him there just means he has yet another chance to get more people killed in an effort to prove himself useful...which he isn't.

[Milosuperspesh]

oh evin

i guess you've now resorted to semantics about what i said 'again out of context' at different stages of this debate.

so since the next logical step for you is to get personal and then insult me.

just cos i'd rather have trust worthy skilled and honest people with me instead of lying pathetic cowards makes me a 'bravado type chest puffer'

hard choices ?

you say letting someone die is easy ? erm shouldn't that be the other way round ?

game over real life ? what now ? spitballing...

congrats you successfully ranted on about stuff that wasn't even related to the topic then brought in the gamer versus real life card and bordering on insults.

congrats you and ben are soulmates

That sounds more like you romanticizing the value of his loss... Let's be quite frank, shall we? He brings nothing to the table. Not survival skills. Not quality commentary. Not comic relief. Nothing. His loss is incidental at best. Sweet relief from his bungling efforts at worst. Saving him there just means he has yet another chance to get more people killed in an effort to prove himself useful...which he isn't.

preach it brother

A 'fucking' MEN

#bro fist#

[Evinshir]

oh evin

i guess you've now resorted to semantics about what i said 'again out of context' at different stages of this debate.

Exactly how. That was taken from a debate about will Ben change. And you said "A Leopard doesn't change its spots."

Here people said Ben can change, you said he couldn't and then said you never argued that people can't change.

That's not semantics, that's you being caught out changing your argument.

so since the next logical step for you is to get personal and then insult me.

Please. Show me where I have personally insulted you.

just cos i'd rather have trust worthy skilled and honest people with me instead of lying pathetic cowards makes me a 'bravado type chest puffer'

Not my words. You are the one who chose to perceive Ben as such - that doesn't actually make him what you claim.

hard choices ?

you say letting someone die is easy ? erm shouldn't that be the other way round ?

Nope. And you're proving it. It's very easy to rely on some simple stock solution of "why bother trying to help him learn to survive when you can give up on him."

You're having a real hard time trying to see why he should live. Seems to me that the hard choice is trying to work out how to survive without having to sacrifice anyone.

game over real life ? what now ? spitballing...

congrats you successfully ranted on about stuff that wasn't even related to the topic then brought in the gamer versus real life card and bordering on insults.

I did not intend to personally insult you. My point was that it seems an oddly common thing among gamers to talk tough about survival games, but survival isn't about being hard. It's about being smart, wise and compassionate.

congrats you and ben are soulmates

*shrug* I guess that is meant to insult me. Frankly, I'd be happy to have Ben on my team. He means well, and as long as he isn't neglected - like he is in the game - he could become a valuable asset. He's young, he's fit and he's fast. He just needs to work on his fear and be taught to be more open about what he intends to do before he acts.

All things you can teach anyone to do. So thanks.

Edit: That sounds more like you romanticizing the value of his loss... Let's be quite frank, shall we? He brings nothing to the table. Not survival skills. Not quality commentary. Not comic relief. Nothing. His loss is incidental at best. Sweet relief from his bungling efforts at worst. Saving him there just means he has yet another chance to get more people killed in an effort to prove himself useful...which he isn't.

Actually he brings an extra pair of hands, an extra body and because he's a teenager who is clearly a jock - fitness, speed, more energy and strength. His bungling around is because the group is so dysfunctional they aren't making the best use of the assets in the group. With proper support and guidance, Ben would be really useful.

But it's easier to just write him off than see the potential, I guess.

[Milosuperspesh]

i said next step..

i wish you the best of british aka luck with ben on your team

i've had enough of this going round in circles off topic nonsense

looking back since it was clear the leopard saying wasn't accurate for the other group members i changed my stance to them NOT BEN. but i see he has the 'potential' to change but personally it wasn't happening quick enough and in a 'game' that is based on quick choices i made a hard judgement call on ben.

as to why anyone would 'hold his hand' through a ZA assuming you have the time, people and resources to do it it's still asking alot plus theres is no guarantee he will 'get a gold star' but i bet you'd give him an 'A' for effort ?

which when a walker is on his ass he makes one attempt to kill it and misses thus resulting in that walker getting ben meat makes all the aforementioned efforts moot ?! but of course he could kill it and win the fight and be a hero yay for ben... but my points have always been thats going to cost you..

so what i'm seeing here is most people will give ben as many chances as it takes, will give him a blanket if he's cold, which kind of sounds like your wet nursing him.

in most of the media formats that show a weak link they are either killed/exiled or abused.

[HelloCthulhu]

Actually he brings an extra pair of hands, an extra body So did chuck. I don't see people saying leaving him on his own was inhumane.
and because he's a teenager who is clearly a jock Based on what? The letterman jacket? You realize even the waterboy gets one of those? He has the muscles of a wet noodle. His bungling around is because the group is so dysfunctional they aren't making the best use of the assets in the group. With proper support and guidance, Ben would be really useful. You yourself admitted he is stupid, and you cannot cure stupid. Ignorance is temporary. Stupidity is forever.
But it's easier to just write him off than see the potential, I guess.I just want to know where you saw even a single hint of promise from him in this entire game. Name me one time he has done something to benefit the group that didn't end in tragedy?

[Milosuperspesh]

Based on what? The letterman jacket? You realize even the waterboy gets one of those? He has the muscles of a wet noodle. lol nice


I just want to know where you saw even a single hint of promise from him in this entire game. Name me one time he has done something to benefit the group that didn't end in tragedy? me too

ben is a 'band geek'

http://walkingdead.wikia.com/wiki/Ben_Paul

[Evinshir]

So did chuck. I don't see people saying leaving him on his own was inhumane.

Chuck was surrounded. It was not the same situation at all.

Based on what? The letterman jacket? You realize even the waterboy gets one of those? He has the muscles of a wet noodle.

Based on the fact that he is introduced as an athlete and has an athlete's build. There has been zero evidence that he has wet noodle muscles. But evidence that he is likely a track and field athlete. We don't know.

You yourself admitted he is stupid, and you cannot cure stupid. Ignorance is temporary. Stupidity is forever.
Stupidity is not forever. That's absolute bull. IQ changes all the time and can be improved. Ben's naïveté and short-sightedness can be worked with to fix.

I just want to know where you saw even a single hint of promise from him in this entire game. Name me one time he has done something to benefit the group that didn't end in tragedy?

He offers to help. The tragedies have been a result of the entire group's behaviour. He has sat watch, he always is willing to do what is asked of him.

What I want to know is why you are so dead set to ignore Kenny, Lily and Lee's involvement in these tragedies and lump all the blame on him.

[Milosuperspesh]

He offers to help. The tragedies have been a result of the entire group's behaviour. He has sat watch, he always is willing to do what is asked of him.



haven't we been over this already ?

lee said to protect clem.

upon entering savanah ben and clem are surrounded, ben runs away.

ben asks to help once they decide to explore the town as no one gave him a job to do.

lee benches him because of his actions with clem

upon returning lee see's ben watching kenny getting drunk and almost has a drink too then gives lee some bad attitude.

and again asks why he's not being allowed to contribute


seriously evin you starting to appear almost as naive as ben.

[Evinshir]

All of which is no justification for letting him die nor proves that his dying after everyone else was already safe was a heroic act.

[HelloCthulhu]

All of which is no justification for letting him die nor proves that his dying after everyone else was already safe was a heroic act.

Ah, but we didn't know everyone was safe until afterwards... Hindsight does not negate the fact that it would be a heroic act.

[Evinshir]

Ah, but we didn't know everyone was safe until afterwards... Hindsight does not negate the fact that it would be a heroic act.

Umm. Yes we did because everyone else was already out of the building and Lee went back for Ben. It wasn't hindsight. It was blatantly obvious at the time it was happening.

[Milosuperspesh]

that may not be in 'your mind/magic dream world' evin

lee stayed behind for ben he didn't go back...

but what your failing to grasp here is some of us DON'T WANT TO RISK ANYMORE people dying from stupid or to put it another way AVOIDABLE deaths.

if ben had died instead of travis/david the group would be soo much better off.

travis maybe not much better but i reckon his father would of drilled some smarts in to him and david well music doesn't happen with out instruments.

[Zozma]

I panicked and helped Kenny kill Larry. I didn't want to be stuck in there with a 300 pound dead guy. I wanted to drop Ben. In fact, I was disappointed that threatening him was all I could do when he confessed to me. But I chose to save him because he's just a stupid kid.

[HelloCthulhu]

I panicked and helped Kenny kill Larry. I didn't want to be stuck in there with a 300 pound dead guy. I wanted to drop Ben. In fact, I was disappointed that threatening him was all I could do when he confessed to me. But I chose to save him because he's just a stupid kid.

And stupid is deadly in the ZA. Stupid gets people killed.

[Evinshir]

Again. None of which morally justifies letting Ben die.

You can't claim "there's a risk so he's better off dead" to make it morally right. It isn't.

Clementine is just as much of a risk. Kenny is the biggest risk, his actions have directly led to people's deaths. Carly died because of Kenny killing Larry and undermining Lily to the point that she was paranoid of everyone. Katjaa killed herself because Kenny was not paying attention to what was happening to her. Brie died because Kenny decided to force everyone to vote on Ben's future in the middle of a Zombie attack instead of waiting until they got to safety.

He never has a plan, is quick to turn on his friends and only looks out for himself.

But you still are willing to take that risk.

[Zozma]

Sorry, don't care. He's just a kid. I couldn't humanly justify killing him simply because he's young and scared.

[HelloCthulhu]

Sorry, don't care. He's just a kid. I couldn't humanly justify killing him simply because he's young and scared.

Just a kid? the guy is at least 17...that's old enough to join the army in some countries. Not buying it.

[Zozma]

I consider 17 a kid. And seeing as how this topic is about what we believe is morally correct, I believe saving the kid is morally correct.

[Milosuperspesh]

erm kenny didn't start the vote ?

i thought it was lee/christa, because kenny wanted to kill ben right there and then.

seriously evin are you super glued in to this mind set you have ?

katjaa killed her self because she couldn't live with out duck quoting her

'i love him more than life it's self'

brie actually died because the walkers came through the door that was blocked by the hatchet, (GUESS WHO REMOVED IT) YES THAT'S RIGHT MUTHAFUCKER IT WAS BEN...

humble pie time does it taste good with your cheese and wine ?

is it also morally correct to ignore dangers ? is it acceptable to endanger a child ? is it fair to judge someone on their actions ? yes in a place where law doesn't exist justice should be served.

now so far ben is guilty of murder or manslaughter depending on your definition.

a child is 5 to 12, a teenager is 13 to 19 and adult is 19 to 40 ish 40 ish onwards is mature or should be.

[Viser]

And it's also a lot easier to understand Ben if you're a teenager who's had a sheltered life yourself, which obviously most people on this forum aren't...

[HelloCthulhu]

Again. None of which morally justifies letting Ben die.

You can't claim "there's a risk so he's better off dead" to make it morally right. It isn't.

Clementine is just as much of a risk. Kenny is the biggest risk, his actions have directly led to people's deaths. Carly died because of Kenny killing Larry and undermining Lily to the point that she was paranoid of everyone. Katjaa killed herself because Kenny was not paying attention to what was happening to her. Brie died because Kenny decided to force everyone to vote on Ben's future in the middle of a Zombie attack instead of waiting until they got to safety.

He never has a plan, is quick to turn on his friends and only looks out for himself.

But you still are willing to take that risk.

You assume much. I went alone into episode 5.

[Zozma]

I'm not a sheltered teenager. Far from it. I don't even like Ben as a character. I also can't justify letting him drop simply because I could or had the chance. From my standpoint, I had the time to drag him up and get his ass out, so I did. I don't think it's right to leave him behind, no matter what shit storms he was in the middle of. If everybody thought that way, Lee wouldn't even be alive because the world would be filled with a bunch of Larry types. Larry wanted to leave Lee behind in the same manner for similar reasons and honestly, he pissed me right the hell off for that.

Maybe he will screw up in the next episode. I'm almost counting on it. So what? It was my choice to make in my save game. Why does that have to bother you so much you have to start arguing with a random forum-goer about it? You're not going to change my mind and I'm not changing yours, so frankly, I'm done with this topic.

[Malphaxis]

Evin, I picture you in a tweed jacket, patched elbows, sitting in you country cottage, with your smoking pipe, by a fireplace in your study, with your faithful hound resting at your side while you make these esoterically high minded assertions.
Admittedly, I'm no social anthropologist, but I have done some reading & your argument about early man circa 200,000 years ago.. well our tribal interactions were on scale with the social hierarchy of modern day chimpanzees.
Honestly, any examination of modern society beginning before the last ice age +/- 15,000 years ago is really irrelevant.
Hunter-Gatherer tribal societies didn't muse about the nature of man.
Civilization is itself a product of evolved agricultural societies where excess food stuff allowed for sedentary societies where man could leisurely navel gaze.

I'm sorry, but in Larrys words "I'll dig one grave" for you and your modern notions of civility and morality. You both perish together.
In my observations a group of teenagers from Rwanda who've never heard of moral ambiguity would have a better chance at survival than a group comprised of civilized educated westerners.

/shrug
But thats just my opinion. Okay. That's it. I'm really done now. :cool:

[Milosuperspesh]

shall i send some aloe vera out for these burns ?

i feel a ban coming in my near future lol

[Viser]

I just meant that being a teenager makes it easier to understand Ben because I am one. Putting myself in his shoes, I'd be just as scared as he was. Probably even more. You'd all kick me out of your groups in a ZA (or not even let me join for that matter) the first chance you got :p

But well, everyone seems to be done here and this has been a fun discussion, this is why I like the internet :p

[Evinshir]

Lol. As a matter of fact I think you'd be surprised if you met me. Let's just say tweed is not my style.

Kenny forced the vote because he stopped everyone from going further and demanded that they abandon Ben there on the spot - forcing the vote.

Given how long that took, they had plenty of time to escape. Brie died as a direct result of forcing them to stop running.

All of which still doesn't justify letting Ben die. And for the record I ended ep 4 with everyone coming with Lee.

[SonnyN18]

Everyone. I think all of us should shut up. All were doing is going in circles and giving each other the same answer time and time again. I believe this is where we stop. Both decisions can be justified and not one choice is better than the other ( but I do have my own opinions ). I think this is where we put a truce. To each their own.

[HelloCthulhu]

This would usually be the point in the debate where a third impartial party would decide who won based on the strength of the argument. Any volunteers?

[Milosuperspesh]

seems to me the constant repeating of ben is human it is moral to save him

doesn't cut the mustard, just cos you don't want to kill a defenceless person and choosing to ignore all his faults and his current lack of skills isn't noble, it's stupid.

hence kill ben for the safety of the group wins ;) ;) ;)

[SonnyN18]

seems to me the constant repeating of ben is human it is moral to save him

doesn't cut the mustard, just cos you don't want to kill a defenceless person and choosing to ignore all his faults and his current lack of skills isn't noble, it's stupid.

hence kill ben for the safety of the group wins ;) ;) ;)

Your the last judge we'd pick.

[rachellouise85]

And maybe save :/ wouldn't want to go against anyone's wishes, or anything.

[Milosuperspesh]

wouldn't pick you to be a judge either sonny jim

besides it's you're...

trololol

oh really rachel ? you'd let me die would you ? hmm a death threat ? you know thats not allowed on these forums ? even as a 'joke' ?

i've just sent a pm to mod about that so i wonder if you'll get banned. since i was...

maybe if you lived in the present with what ben had currently done and brought to the table which is not alot as cthulhu put it earlier, you'd realise that waiting for ben to change could take a long time ASSUMING you and the group could survive long enough to turn a boy in to a man..

[thestalkinghead]

everybody should do as they want to be done by.

So if you were an old man with a heart condition that had just collapsed because of a heart attack, and you were locked in a room (in the zombie apocalypse) with your daughter a little girl and two men, and one of the men has a family in immanent danger.

what would you want? would you:
A) want everybody to risk their life in a nearly impossible attempt to revive you (risking turning into a zombie and killing everybody)

B) want to be taken out, so that you don't risk killing your daughter and the other people

from the way i saw the situation i would pick B

in the ben situation if you were depressed because everything you did just kept going wrong and you said to one of the others that everybody would be better off if you were dead.

of the two choices:
A) the guy agrees and drops you from a bell tower
B) he disagrees and pulls you up

i would hope B happens

so the way i see it is that the most human thing to do is to do only do things you would pick to happen to you if the roles of the situation were reversed.
obviously everybody would have their own opinion on what they would want if the roles were reversed, but it would only be truly bad things that most people would agree would be a bad thing to happen to them

[rachellouise85]

Oh, but you've been arguing 'till you're blue in the face, on several occasions that refusing to help someone who needs it, is not the same as murdering. :) Also it's permissible if the person in questions is detriment to the group, so of course, so I would be listening to your wishes, and would be putting the needs of the group first. Thirdly, it is not a threat. To yet again refer to, and quote someone who thinks of themselves as oh so intelligent,
"so now putting words in my mouth eh ? bad form.."

Btw, I don't think many arguments have been won by "your logic is bullshit". "you're stupid", "that's stupid" etc. Maybe you should work on your form.

[Viser]

Oh c'mon. The discussion should've stopped by post #87, stop arguing before it starts getting out of hand.

[Milosuperspesh]

again another thinly disguised insult 'who thins/thinks as oh so intelligent'

i did not put words in your mouth rach, that is how i perceived the comment and someone else pm'd me (thanks mal) about it so if others can see it it's isn't me who's to blame it is them for a failed attempt to circumvent the rules.

thing is when have i refused help ? ben GAVE UP, when i have actually said i'm going to murder ben ?

please tell me, as far as i know i have said why i wouldn't save him with reasons, to say murder shows premeditation, says i planned it, but i suppose cos he was at my mercy i chose the group over one boy, which is actually a morale decision in it's self like the needs of the many out weigh the few..
hey rachel why so serious ?

you speak of morals you speak of humanity and therefore by saying

you'd leave me till last and then probably drop me/not save, pretty much nullifies the entire argument for saving ben..

we know enough about ben through his actions, yet i am someone you don't know have never met, you think because of my way of commenting you know me ? and you'd just as easily condemn me ?

but of course it's all down to not agreeing on something, i dunno whats more pathetic, the fact you seem to complain about me, say ignore me and yet here you again bitchin at me ?

seriously rach give it up...

[rachellouise85]

lol. Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious from the way you keep referencing to things I haven't even said, and the way you say you haven't said something, even when I take your words and directly use/quote them. So yeah, no one would win a debate against you.

[Milosuperspesh]

Btw, I don't think many arguments have been won by "your logic is bullshit". "you're stupid", "that's stupid" etc. Maybe you should work on your form.

no they are won on the proof of bens actions, not gonna say them cos i feel if you ain't understanding his death count by now, you never will.

i guess i got you mixed up with evin and sonny sorry about that, kinda hard when you 3 are all saying the same things it all gets joined up..

i have no idea what i'm talking about ??! i played the game, like you must of done? are you honestly telling me ben has been a hero ? a man of action a man of amazing survival skills ? has laughed in the face of a rotting walker ? SERIOUSLY ?! wow rach omg wow..this is from a 'woman' who thought the station wagon we looted belonged to campman in ep2 ffs..LMFAO...

viser yeah i hear ya

[rachellouise85]

If we left everyone who's killed, or caused a death/s (whether directly or however indirectly). There wouldn't be many left. Not even little Clem would be innocent.

[Milosuperspesh]

If we left everyone who's killed, or caused a death/s (whether directly or however indirectly). There wouldn't be many left.

yeah and?

sounds like ben doesn't it ?

clem would of found the boat anyway upon exploring the garage, regardless of ben.

hey you're honour i rest my case, on second thought,

fuck it i'm done

[rachellouise85]

That wasn't an argument for saving Ben, that was just pointing a fact out. Few,if any of them are/would be innocent if we're going through indirect causes of deaths, as well as direct.

What sounds like Ben? I know, I was referring to Ben being an indirect cause, that's a point you keep using :/

[Moneymich383]

Just imagine if ben didnt mess up watching clem
they wouldnt have found the boat in the shed
she found it when ben didnt know where she was
also if ben didnt mess up and clem didnt leave the house
molly would have killed lee
just save ben

[SonnyN18]

wouldn't pick you to be a judge either sonny jim

besides it's you're...

trololol

oh really rachel ? you'd let me die would you ? hmm a death threat ? you know thats not allowed on these forums ? even as a 'joke' ?

i've just sent a pm to mod about that so i wonder if you'll get banned. since i was...

maybe if you lived in the present with what ben had currently done and brought to the table which is not alot as cthulhu put it earlier, you'd realise that waiting for ben to change could take a long time ASSUMING you and the group could survive long enough to turn a boy in to a man..

Well I never said I was.

[Sir Fruitcakes]

The moral things to do in my view.

Saved duck.

Larry's character wasn't a threat to anyone but Lee, but his zombie was a threat to everyone, regardless of that, the moral thing to do in my eyes was to try to save him regardless of the risk, I am strictly against the ends justify the means.

Took lilly with me because in my view its wrong to condemn someone who obviously is being overwhelmed with guilt and was already being overwhelmed by grief.

Saved Ben because letting someone die over afew mistakes is vindictive in my eyes which I strictly disagree with, plus I love Ben.

From my point of view allowing anyone to die when you could have saved them is wrong, or as Theodore Roosevelt said... you have 3 options, the first one is the best thing you can do, the other the second best, and the worst thing you can possibly do is nothing at all.

[Wrighty]

Killing Larry. Hopefully he was already dead and was about to reanimate and devour us all. Even if he wasn't dead, the risk was too great and he was unconscious and wouldn't have felt a thing.

Ben on the other hand would have felt his legs break and then teeth sink into his flesh. And this is for making some stupid mistakes.