Remake KQ8 project

[Anakin Skywalker]

Would anyone like to start up or help me out with a project with the goal of remaking KQ8? The idea is to bring the game in line with Roberta's vision of the game and make it the epic KQ8 it could've been. Many have noted that while the final product is generally something Roberta approved, there's also a lot of other voices drowning hers out.

There were so many changes done to the game, so much stuff cut or quickly cut and pasted together. The original game was much larger, but also much more concise.

A lot of stuff had to be junked (two whole levels, Daventry was supposed to be completely different, etc) and nixed mostly because the technology of the time wasn't able to keep up with Roberta's ideas, and because of budget constraints and problems coordinating development between the various teams working on the game, and with a change in management and video game demographics, the question of how much action should be in the game became important. Roberta wanted action, but said action might've only been limited to Bosses had the pressures of changing times not been on her.

I'd just love to do something that could make Mask of Eternity into the classic game it had the potential to be, as close as possible to what Roberta originally envisioned before others began tampering with her ideas, or before what she wanted got sidelined by technological barriers and demographics concerns.

[Lambonius]

I assume then, that you have some mind-reading ability so as to be able to know exactly what her "original vision" was?

Or do you mean that you want to remake KQ8 in a more traditional point-and-click style, which certainly would be more palatable to long-time series fans, but was absolutely the opposite of where she wanted to take the game.

What makes you even think her "original vision" would have been good? The design choices in the last few King's Quest games were terrible, and directly made those games worse than what had come before.

This idea that staying true to "Roberta's vision" would have magically made KQ8 a great game is ludicrous. The woman had been becoming increasingly out of touch with what fans of her games actually liked for quite a while before KQ8 was even made.

Anyway, that said--how much will you pay me?

[Anakin Skywalker]

I assume then, that you have some mind-reading ability so as to be able to know exactly what her "original vision" was?

Or do you mean that you want to remake KQ8 in a more traditional point-and-click style, which certainly would be more palatable to long-time series fans, but was absolutely the opposite of where she wanted to take the game.

What makes you even think her "original vision" would have been good? The design choices in the last few King's Quest games were terrible, and directly made those games worse than what had come before.

This idea that staying true to "Roberta's vision" would have magically made KQ8 a great game is ludicrous. The woman had been becoming increasingly out of touch with what fans of her games actually liked for quite a while before KQ8 was even made.

Anyway, that said--how much will you pay me?

If you read the wiki on KQ8's devleopment, you can get a good idea of what she originally invisioned, what was cut and why, etc.. Reading through her released design documents should fill in the gaps. At least two levels--an Underwater Level and an Air level (separate from the Realm of the Sun) were cut. Daventry was supposed to be a HUGE, brightly lit kingdom and it was to look just as it did in the previous games (there's even an early screenshot ofo Connor standing next to the famous Well from KQ1), but the engine couldn't handle the brightness and so that's the only reason why we got the dark, desolate, small Daventry that we did.

And she had two former ideas about KQ8's protagonist, which I thought was interesting. One was the idea of Conor being a statue turned to life, whilst all else is turned to stone. In the end, as reward for saving the Kingdom, he'd become a person, ala Pinocchio. The other had Connor as the son of a fisherman, touched by a piece of the Mask at birth.

There's a lot of other ideas that were dropped that just seem like it would've been epic. There was to be a Green Man, A Leprechaun, part of the Underwater level would've been exploring a sunken ship which had been en route to raid Daventry, in a treasure hunt. There was to be an "Island King" and a Harbor town bordering Daventry. Daventry itself was to be HUGE--You would've been able to go, without loading, through the entire Kingdom, from the City of Daventry (cut), to forests (cut), to a the aforementioned Harbor Town (cut), to Conor's Village (which made it into the final game). There was to be moving living characters to interact with, a puzzle involving a Phoenix egg (and thus possibly a Phoenix). The Swamp Witch was to have a big role, and the action was to be limited to Boss characters. Just a ton of stuff.

As to Roberta being "out of touch" with what fans wanted...Well, KQ5 is beloved, and that's the last game that Roberta totally spearheaded without any help or collaboration. KQ6 she co-produced with Jensen and that's a beloved entry. KQ7 wasn't Roberta's game at all outside of basic ideas (Lorelei Shannon is listed as the sole writer, first on the list of Designers, and first on the list of Directors of the game; KQ7 is basically a Lorelei Shannon game based on characters and ideas by Roberta). KQ8 went from being in her hands to having a bunch of other people put their own ideas in.

[BagginsKQ]

SHe had three totally essentially unrelated visions for the story direction of the game... They all started from very different parts of the kingdom.

It would be impossible to 'merge' those, and have "Roberta's vision".

It might be cool to have three different player characters, who somehow come together help each other out, based on the three original character ideas... But it would still not be Roberta's vision.

The Leprichaun and the Redcap goblin for example were the same character. She couldn't decide which one to use...

They went with the Boss Spriggan Boss instead, which in some ways better fit better with the Spriggans that were taking over, and gave them a 'leader'. Although it might have been more interesting if it had dialogue (or if another character made reference to the spriggan menace and their leader)... But none of the spriggans have any dialogue...

from the City of Daventry (cut), to forests (cut),

Do you have proof that the city of Daventry or that forests were cut? I know of no screenshots of such things. I've never read anything about the "city of daventry" being in the game (or rather a separate city), actually Connor's village is named 'Daventry', so its actually in the game.

Do you mean that little square with 2-3 buildings that is shown in the 1996 video? It's a town in Daventry, not necessarily given a name. It might even be a prototype to the village as it is seen in the final game. Or it might be the 'harbor town'... Who knows.

There is an unused part of the overworld map that is a forest, but that's not a proof that level in a forest was designed. Besides that map looks like it was added late in the game, during the final story development. I think it was drawn by the later artist.

There are a few woodsy trees near a road, which seems to be the same map as the one with the little town square, and possible the same as the ocean side with the hydra. Calling it a 'forest' might be a bit of an exaggeration.

the action was to be limited to Boss characters

No proof of this, and I have never come across anything like that in my research. The only thing that might have been different is boss characters might have involved more puzzle solving than regular enemies. Some of that is actually kept in the game (Basilisk, Black Dragonwyrm, Two-Headed Dragon, Lucreto, all require a bit of puzzle solving to be able to defeat).

Daventry was supposed to be a HUGE, brightly lit kingdom and it was to look just as it did in the previous games (there's even an early screenshot ofo Connor standing next to the famous Well from KQ1),

THere is absolutely no proof that that is the famous well from KQ1, infact it doesn't even look like the well from KQ1 (other than being the same type of generic covered well)... It's also inside of a farm, where such wells are generally found...

[BagginsKQ]

Or you could do what Roberta generally did... She often had more ideas that she could use... KQ2 for example is made up of many ideas that she couldn't include in KQ1 wrapped into a new story...

So it might be more interesting to make a series of new games, based loosely on the other two character ideas. But with original stories, that somehow incorporate unused characters and ideas/puzzles into new original stories...

[exo]

Aside from all that - what game credits do you have Anakin? Or do you expect someone else to do all the heavy lifting while you just inform them of what Roberta's "original vision" was?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Aside from all that - what game credits do you have Anakin? Or do you expect someone else to do all the heavy lifting while you just inform them of what Roberta's "original vision" was?

I know you're trying my threads, but I'll dignify this one with a response.
Ideally, I'd work with a team, using Roberta's released design documents to see what the first design document for KQ8 had in terms of the story, puzzles, etc. Seek her advice as to what exactly she intended for certain points and general guidance. Work with a team. I'm not very good with a computer or programming but in terms of helping to craft the story, plot points/puzzles, general direction, art direction/design, music direction, I could be of use.

[MtnPeak]

... in terms of helping to craft the story, plot points/puzzles, general direction, art direction/design, music direction, I could be of use.

If legal concerns weren't an issue, I would definitely support/buy/financially back (e.g. on Kickstarter) such a project. I would feel especially good knowing that an extremely knowledgable KQ fan like you is involved. You care about the series and are a true fan of the originals, so I think it would be in good hands.

Sigh, I wish I had artistic, musical or technical/programming skills. I am jealous of all you talented artists! :-p

[BagginsKQ]

The first design document were mainly world ideas few or no puzzles and combat discussion. The first test world was apparently a version of Daventry kingdom itself.

Puzzles mostly came later, after they had general combat figured out. I'd guess probably a few months into actual development.

I've been looking through kQ8 staff resumes and they seem to suggest actual programming and initial level design started about November through December 1996 give or take.

Any ideas before that must have been very rough story treatments but no puzzle concepts. This is not surprising as Roberta has said in some cases she worked on stories and came up wih puzzles later in development once the worlds and characters were put in place.

For sense of perspective remember having a story does not mean you have puzzles to progress the story.

One of the things Seibert explained in that test Daventry was having Connor run around to places hey wanted to place puzzles, but they saw how much unused space there was between. Keep in mind many of those early maps were even larger than the final maps and had more unused and mostly flat space. On the wiki I have an image of an early map of the swamp as an example.


Earlier version of the Swamp;
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130227112202/kingsquest/images/9/9b/Swmap3.jpg

Final version of the Swamp;
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110155249/kingsquest/images/9/9e/Theswamp.JPG

So because of the wide open space they added idea of combat. Now the finalized maps made space a bit more closed in and varied, and kinda pushes you towards bottle necks and canyons where enemies are placed. This also helped to lead the player towards relevant locations, so you are less likely to get lost or overlook relevant locations, and puzzles.

[BagginsKQ]

What I would like to see is someone design a program that can open the *.pbm files, or any other files that contain KQ8's graphics assests (UI, maps, etc). There are are even some BMP files that modern graphics programs don't like to open, but may contain interesting character, or item textures. Being able to open these may open up access to unused material, that may offer an idea of what was cut from the game.

It would be fascinating if there was any code or files left in the files of any of the prototype level designs.

[MusicallyInspired]

Personally, I think first draft design documents are abandoned for a reason.

[BagginsKQ]

Ya, pretty sure the earliest, as in "pinnochio" was abandoned and decidedly ignored. Nothing came of it, not even sure there are any concept art, just story treatments.

The moment they started programming the test level, they had already switched the story towards Connor instead.

[tomimt]

First draft of anything rarely is gold and I suspect the case to be the same with KQ8. The first draft it just a starting point that is refined into the final product.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Personally, I think first draft design documents are abandoned for a reason.

KQ must stay dead forever because AGDI and IA were denied the license! Butthurt abounds!

[Anakin Skywalker]

Ya, pretty sure the earliest, as in "pinnochio" was abandoned and decidedly ignored. Nothing came of it, not even sure there are any concept art, just story treatments.

The moment they started programming the test level, they had already switched the story towards Connor instead.

Any remake would have Connor, of course.
I'm not referring to the earliest draft, story treatments.
I'm referring to the actual first design phase, which went beyond story treatments and produced those first videos and screenshots shown in '96.

[BagginsKQ]

That was the level and early combat design period. Not much of anything for puzzles according to Roberta and Seibert. Though the story concepts and characters were probably already thought of by then.

Puzzles were decided late in the game, one of the reasons some level material didn't make it in because not all ideas for puzzles had been fully thought out or no puzzle concepts had been designed to place into those levels, before the budget and time issues came up.

The interesting thing is if fan remake was made they'd pretty much be able to be fully original as far as puzzles. You might luck out and find some cut puzzle concepts that we're created near the final stretch of he development that might inspire ideas. Although by then the story had changed in yet a third direction.

[Blackthorne519]

KQ must stay dead forever because AGDI and IA were denied the license! Butthurt abounds!

I don't know about AGDI; I can't speak for them. IA was never denied the license - we never pursued it. In my discussion with colleagues in the Industry, I came to know of the terms of a KQ license, and it was something we could not afford.

And now that I have had quite a long time to think about it, I'm absolutely fine with King's Quest remaining dormant. Like I've stated 1,000 times - somethings are just meant to stop. King's Quest had a good run, and when you get to 8 sequels - the quality is going to decline. I'm not one much for reboots of things, either - we're in a period in the creative world where it's reboots and sequels - and honestly, I'm more interested in new ideas.

I don't need a new King's Quest, or particularly want one at this juncture. Not unless it was really handled with care. If one came along, had a great team behind it - I'd be interested in it. Right now - there's no one, or nothing. I don't know what Activision's plans are, but TellTale isn't going to be making King's Quest. For now, I'm fine with it being on a shelf.


Bt

[MtnPeak]

I'm fine with it being on a shelf...

Bt


Sadly, you miss a big point regarding the game reboots. The hi res reboots (e.g.,Larry Reloaded, Monkey Island) are not a result of a lack of creativity; they are made, in part, to introduce classic series to a whole new set of fans. Many younger gamers would never consider playing a game with blocky graphics nor one which requires DOSbox to run. And remember that the classic series stay alive, in a sense, only so far as new players are continuing to discover and play them. I suppose you are also against reprinting classic novels for new generations to enjoy? New KQ and other rebooted games won't just be played by the same handful of people that you are used to communicating with in various online KQ forums, don't forget. How sad that you want the series to stay "shelved", essentially putting a cap on the number of people who will ever enjoy the series.

Your suggestion that game reboots or sequels somehow prevent others from supporting or creating new series is also a little silly. We can do both: celebrate/relive the classics AND also enjoy and produce new series. This is good for adventure gaming as a whole.

I don't need a new King's Quest, or particularly want one at this juncture...

Bt

Not everything is about "you" or what "you" need. Look at the bigger picture.

The KQ series has something special and is a lot of fun. It had many sequels and was a HUGE seller because people loved the games! I would be thrilled to see a new non-Telltale KQ game with the same special, fun spirit of the originals. I say, unleash the classics! Give life to a new KQ adventure! Let a new generation experience the fun and create new fans in the process.

[Blackthorne519]

I am speaking for me, Mtn. Peak. It IS about what I want and what I need.

As with film, I want the younger generation to watch "Citizen Kane", not a remake or a reboot. I want them to see "The Wizard of Oz", not a remake or a reboot.

If they don't play some blocky old game, it's their loss.


Bt

[BagginsKQ]

Blackthorne if a company decides to reboot a classic series or make remakes or new sequels, you aren't forced to watch it the original series will always be their unchanged.

I'm glad that places like GoG are makimg it easier to access them for new generation of gamers or even old who lost or sold their original copies. Its a digital archive with access to all as long as they can continue to sell them.

[Blackthorne519]

I know I'm not forced to watch them, but some things just shouldn't be done. King's Quest shouldn't have a sequel tacked on to it or be rebooted just to make a buck - or somehow "continue" the trend. Yes, the original series will be unchanged - that's great. I'd just hate to see a crappy game come out with a King's Quest name slapped on it.


Bt

[Lambonius]

Mtn Peak and Anakin, I'm selling these fine magic beans. If you plant them, they'll grow a new King's Quest game. My kickstarter funding goal is just a paltry $500,000.

[tomimt]

Stories and legends are meant to be told again and again. That's why there's so many adaptations of Shakespeare or Greek myths. Every generation spins their own versions of tales, be it Hamlet or tales of gods. There are many things I consider that won't need re-telling, but I have no doubt that at some point those stories will be retold either well or badly from my POW. This is now happening with games as well. There's a lot of old games, that are ripe for a retelling, old fans either like them or not, but the re-tellings aren't really done for the old fans, but to new people. If old fans like them that's just a bonus.

[Blackthorne519]

Yes, but they called a modern adaptation of Hamlet "The Lion King", not Hamlet.

I mean, we can all start quoting Joseph Cambell, and talk about how the Hero's Journey is the same damn story every time. It is. There are only so many basic stories to be told.

Throwing the King's Quest name on a new story... lame. Merely branding worship.


Bt

[Lambonius]

Merely branding worship.

B-b-but...Roberta's vision!

[Anakin Skywalker]

Yes, but they called a modern adaptation of Hamlet "The Lion King", not Hamlet.

I mean, we can all start quoting Joseph Cambell, and talk about how the Hero's Journey is the same damn story every time. It is. There are only so many basic stories to be told.

Throwing the King's Quest name on a new story... lame. Merely branding worship.


Bt

So, any "new" story, even if it is literally a direct continuation of the series from KQ7, is somehow "branding worship"? Even if the story, characters, etc all are related to and are respectful of the previous entries?

Like, if a KQ9 was made wherein Graham was the protagonist and was on a quest to save the life of another member of the Royal Family, it would never be a King's Quest game, merely ''branding worship''?

[Lambonius]

So, any "new" story, even if it is literally a direct continuation of the series from KQ7, is somehow "branding worship"? Even if the story, characters, etc all are related to and are respectful of the previous entries?

Like, if a KQ9 was made wherein Graham was the protagonist and was on a quest to save the life of another member of the Royal Family, it would never be a King's Quest game, merely ''branding worship''?

The story doesn't matter.

[Anakin Skywalker]

The story doesn't matter.

Ok, I'll be more clear:
If a game called King's Quest IX was made wherein Graham was the protagonist, and he had to save the life of a member of the Royal Family, in a pure adventure game format with an interface little more than a modernized version of the KQ5-KQ6 interface, with a tone similar to that of King's Quest V or VI, it would not be a King's Quest?

[Lambonius]

Ok, I'll be more clear:
If a game called King's Quest IX was made wherein Graham was the protagonist, and he had to save the life of a member of the Royal Family, in a pure adventure game format with an interface little more than a modernized version of the KQ5-KQ6 interface, with a tone similar to that of King's Quest V or VI, it would not be a King's Quest?

Sure, I'd play that. Never gonna happen though. ;)

[Anakin Skywalker]

Sure, I'd play that. Never gonna happen though. ;)

It will someday, despite what you want.

[Lambonius]

It will someday, despite what you want.

Did I mention I was selling these magic beans?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Did I mention I was selling these magic beans?

Why do you stick around if you're just going to troll? Don't understand it. You hate KQ, you're over it, you want to ensure it stays dead forever, you hate TT or the idea of TT making a KQ game...Why stick around here?

[Lambonius]

Why do you stick around if you're just going to troll? Don't understand it. You hate KQ, you're over it, you want to ensure it stays dead forever, you hate TT or the idea of TT making a KQ game...Why stick around here?

I enjoy the stimulating conversation. And I never said I hated KQ. I hate the idea of a new, poorly conceived KQ that besmirches the name of the originals.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I enjoy the stimulating conversation.

Basically, you're just a troll at this point, and enjoy pissing on the enthusiasm of anyone who doesn't feel that KQ must remain dead forever.

[Lambonius]

Basically, you're just a troll at this point, and enjoy pissing on the enthusiasm of anyone who doesn't feel that KQ must remain dead forever.

Let's just imagine for a moment that this magical new King's Quest gets made. And it turns out to be terrible. Just awful. The writing of TSL meets the exploratory depth and puzzle quality of Telltale.

You'd really want that?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Let's just imagine for a moment that this magical new King's Quest gets made. And it turns out to be terrible. Just awful. The writing of TSL meets the exploratory depth and puzzle quality of Telltale.

You'd really want that?

Sure. At this point, I'd love it come out just to see your reaction to it.

[Lambonius]

Sure. At this point, I'd love it come out just to see your reaction to it.

Hahaha...me too.

[MusicallyInspired]

KQ must stay dead forever because AGDI and IA were denied the license! Butthurt abounds!

We weren't denied, actually. AGDI had the license to make the remakes, that's just all we wanted to do. IA never even looked for it to begin with. Your logic is flawed here.

I am speaking for me, Mtn. Peak. It IS about what I want and what I need.

As with film, I want the younger generation to watch "Citizen Kane", not a remake or a reboot. I want them to see "The Wizard of Oz", not a remake or a reboot.

If they don't play some blocky old game, it's their loss.


Bt

Hear hear! That was very well put. We shouldn't be trying to pretty up the "ugly" from the older games. It's a waste of time and disrespectful to say the least. After all, these games were the cream of the crop in their day. Seeing remade graphics is cool for those of us nostalgic enough to spot the differences/similarities or enhancements/detractions, but beyond that it doesn't really serve a purpose as newer players don't really play remakes anyway, in my experience. I don't think anybody truly considers the Sierra remakes or the AGDI or IA remakes as "better" than the originals. They're fun, of course, and neat to see. But they don't serve much of a purpose otherwise as I see it. AGDI's KQ2 and KQ3 remakes changed enough of the plot that they were almost different games, lesser so with KQ3, but they are not the originals and never pretended to be.

It will someday, despite what you want.

You can't possibly believe that. There will never be another King's Quest game with the same feel as King's Quest V. Because there already is a King's Quest V. The same level of greatness? The magic formula of the same group of people in the same place in the same era at the same level of technology with the same ideals of game design and the same target audience ready to receive it is gone. That will never come again.

At the very least, you can't possibly know that. If it happened I'd totally be on-board, though. I just think you're being a little naive.

[MtnPeak]

I know I'm not forced to watch them, but some things just shouldn't be done. King's Quest shouldn't have a sequel tacked on to it or be rebooted just to make a buck - or somehow "continue" the trend.

Why shouldn't it be done? Because a stick in the mud wet blanket said he didn't need a new game? You repeat blah cliches like "just to make a buck" and "don't touch the originals" so much, but it seems like you never give any kind of thought to anything you say.

Remaking the games in hi res is more than just prettying them up, by the way. As I said, many younger players will never even touch a game with blocky graphics or which needs DOSbox to run. Aren't you happy that more gamers can now experience the original Monkey Island games? You would have rather the "Special Edition" games weren't made? Look, I played those new games on my iPhone, and I think that's pretty damn cool. That couldn't have happened without the "remake" effort. I think of it as translating classic novels from their original languages into other languages so more people can experience them. I think you would say, in your usual shallow, knee jerk, don't-give-anything-any-thought way, that people should just learn Greek or Latin or Hebrew or whatever the novel was originally written in if they want to read the original novel.

I agree with Anakin. Some of you are acting like wet blankets, repeatedly telling us all what KQ forum-weary veterans you are and pissing on others' enthusiasm. If you are "through" with KQ and don't want another KQ and have to tell us all how you're rolling your eyes whenever new KQ threads are created, then why even come and participate. I don't know what kind of seniority some people think they have or what respect they think it entitles them, but let's just say this KQ fan isn't impressed just because someone has been around awhile.

I would never suggest anyone not participate, however. I welcome all contributors, and I am happy to see the lively discussion.

[MtnPeak]

You can't possibly believe that. There will never be another King's Quest game with the same feel as King's Quest V. Because there already is a King's Quest V. The same level of greatness? The magic formula of the same group of people in the same place in the same era at the same level of technology with the same ideals of game design and the same target audience ready to receive it is gone. That will never come again.


A new King's Quest not only has the potential to be of the same level of greatness.... no, it could be even greater!!

The best is yet to come.

[MusicallyInspired]

There's also the ever-present ebay.

A new King's Quest not only has the potential to be of the same level of greatness.... no, it could be even greater!!

The best is yet to come.

Your optimistic, I'll give you that. I'm just being realistic. The likelihood is that it won't happen. But we all need something to believe in I guess. If it makes you happy, go ahead and believe it. But don't condemn those who choose to believe otherwise :p....especially when there's no evidence to the contrary. In fact, all the evidence points the other way if you're open enough to read between the lines. Ah, but that's a "matter of opinion"...

[Anakin Skywalker]

There's also the ever-present ebay.



Your optimistic, I'll give you that. I'm just being realistic. The likelihood is that it won't happen. But we all need something to believe in I guess. If it makes you happy, go ahead and believe it. But don't condemn those who choose to believe otherwise :p....especially when there's no evidence to the contrary. In fact, all the evidence points the other way if you're open enough to read between the lines. Ah, but that's a "matter of opinion"...

It's not so much condemning people for having different opinions, it is the arrogant, smug and troll-ish way some are going about pushing that opinion. Some seem to be only be around so they can piss on other's parade. And I tend to agree with Mtn Peak. While I don't feel it can be BETTER, I do feel a KQ game, in the right hands, has a lot of potential to be AS GOOD as KQ5 or KQ6.

You know, the original designers aren't the only people in this world who have talent. They're not the only people who can do a good job. They're not infallible. There's tons of people who have talent and a love of the series and who can make really good games if motivated to do so, as the numerous fan projects have shown.

[Anakin Skywalker]

You can't possibly believe that. There will never be another King's Quest game with the same feel as King's Quest V. Because there already is a King's Quest V. The same level of greatness? The magic formula of the same group of people in the same place in the same era at the same level of technology with the same ideals of game design and the same target audience ready to receive it is gone. That will never come again.

I do, though. Having the same feel doesn't mean being the same exact thing. If one understands what made KQ5 have the magic that it had, one could easily replicate that sort of 'feel'. The AGDI games replicated the classic KQ5-KQ6 "feel" very successfully.

Yes, I believe the same level of greatness can be reached. Why not? Like I said, there are six billion people on the planet. There are a good deal of KQ fans. If you took the best elements of say KQ2VGA and transplanted the ideas to a new game, you'd have an amazing KQ game IMO.

Thinking a new game can be great is not the same as thinking that it'll be the same as 1990 all over again. Even if the exact original design teams got together again and made new KQ, SQ and LSL games, it wouldn't be the same. Just as each game was different from the other. It's not about believing 1990 can happen all over again, it's more that in good hands, the best results of that period can be hit.

We're not talking about bringing all the old guys in and asking THEM to make lightning strike twice. We're talking about younger, fresher people who love the games and understand just what it was that made those games magical, working on making a new game that captures what they loved. That's totally possible and also actually probably better than if the old designers worked on new Sierra games. I'd trust the games in new hands than in old ones.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yes, anything is possible. It could happen. Whether it will or not is an entirely different ball game. ActiVision aren't going to license the IPs to anybody who won't at least try to make it a marketable success. And seeing as a King's Quest game every bit as good as KQ5 or KQ6 is in no way a popular notion, the evidence just seems to point to the fact that it's never going to happen. ActiVision just aren't interested in that kind of a game right now. They want to create/publish marketably successful franchises with a standard formula that can be milked every year (their words, paraphrased), and we also have their other quote that they have "their own plans" for the KQ IP and don't wish to license it out. Don't get me wrong. Your dedication and loyalty to a new and successful King's Quest (that won't suck) is admirable. I just don't see the point in believing in something as remotely possible as that. I mean, that's a pipe dream, man. I wish it would happen to but the way current marketplace realities (yes I said it) are it just seems like it wouldn't be a very lucrative venture for ActiVision or anybody.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding your expectations and standards here. Let me ask you a question. What are you expecting this new King's Quest to be?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Yes, anything is possible. It could happen. Whether it will or not is an entirely different ball game. ActiVision aren't going to license the IPs to anybody who won't at least try to make it a marketable success. And seeing as a King's Quest game every bit as good as KQ5 or KQ6 is in no way a popular notion, the evidence just seems to point to the fact that it's never going to happen. ActiVision just aren't interested in that kind of a game right now. They want to create/publish marketably successful franchises with a standard formula that can be milked every year (their words, paraphrased), and we also have their other quote that they have "their own plans" for the KQ IP and don't wish to license it out. Don't get me wrong. Your dedication and loyalty to a new and successful King's Quest (that won't suck) is admirable. I just don't see the point in believing in something as remotely possible as that. I mean, that's a pipe dream, man. I wish it would happen to but the way current marketplace realities (yes I said it) are it just seems like it wouldn't be a very lucrative venture for ActiVision or anybody.

All the stuff about Activison I get. The Vivendi years were bad, but I'd argue Activision is worse and much more ruthless than Vivendi, at least as far as the fans are concerned and the fan projects. The only good thing they've done re Sierra is their relationship with GOG.

The fact, though, that they were willing to license the KQ series to Telltale--pretty much the premier, only truly successful group out there working in the adventure genre--speaks to their willingness to allow an adventure game based KQ. The license may have lapsed or TT may be beyond KQ at this point, but it still shows that Activision had at least a vague idea that a KQ game would be more successful in the hands of adventure game developers. In the Vivendi years, Vivendi wanted to make generic action, RTS and RPG games out of the series, and farmed them out to developers who had no grounding whatsoever in adventure games.

TT may not have been the best choice, but commercially speaking, they're really the only group making adventure games successful.

You have to remember, even with KQ5-6, Sierra wasn't making these games out of the kindness of their hearts. They were dumbing down the adventure genre with the point and click interface and less options to make it more accessible for new demographics. The entire history of the adventure genre really is one of it being progressively dumbed down....KQ5-6 just happened to tickle mine and yours subjective fancy. But let's not romanticize Sierra. They were a corporation like any other, especially after they became a public company in 1988. They were't going to invest in something that didn't sell. KQ just happened to be what the public liked in the 80s to mid 90s.


But maybe I'm misunderstanding your expectations and standards here. Let me ask you a question. What are you expecting this new King's Quest to be?

My standards and expectations are for a game that has that magical feel, has that sort of atmosphere that made KQ so lovable, that brings back characters I love and introduces new ones, without raping the backstory. A game that introduces fantastic new lands and worlds and incorporates the same mixture of fairy tales, fables, mythology and the like. But I'd hope it'd lean less on fairy tales and more on original ideas or more mature fantasy elements (as KQ5-8 did).

I'm not really a stickler for gameplay. I never was. If I don't like the gameplay, I don't for example, I don't care much for the AGI games. Ideally, in my own little fantasy world, the world wouldn't have moved on from 1996, and we'd get 2D games with or without a narrator that are somewhere between KQ5 to KQ7 in art direction and between KQ5 and KQ6 in tone. I've never been a purist about puzzles...They're just elements to move the story along.

KQ's main appeal to me was the wonderful, beautifully designed worlds and wild characters and villains presented, the feel, the cheesiness, the just sort of innocent feel to things. That can be done in any interface or art style. People's main issue with TT seems to be the puzzle issue. For myself, I've never been big on puzzles as I said. KQ was much more than just a puzzle game to me. They were just sort of triggers to move the story along.

Now does that mean I agree with TT's exact methodology? No. It shouldn't be AS EASY as TT does it, it shouldn't feel like a movie game..But I don't really care about puzzles. I do think the puzzles should be more logical, more intelligent, and more intwined with the story. You can have moments of moon logic or out of left field puzzle solutions (like the Yeti + Pie puzzle)--but it shouldn't be as over board with that as KQ5 was.

I hate reboots, so fuck that.

[MusicallyInspired]

The fact, though, that they were willing to license the KQ series to Telltale--pretty much the premier, only truly successful group out there working in the adventure genre--speaks to their willingness to allow an adventure game based KQ. The license may have lapsed or TT may be beyond KQ at this point, but it still shows that Activision had at least a vague idea that a KQ game would be more successful in the hands of adventure game developers. In the Vivendi years, Vivendi wanted to make generic action, RTS and RPG games out of the series, and farmed them out to developers who had no grounding whatsoever in adventure games.

TT may not have been the best choice, but commercially speaking, they're really the only group making adventure games successful.

That's true. I can't dispute that ActiVision were at least considering putting KQ somewhere somewhat more suitable to its namesake. But we don't even know if they still are licensing it to Telltale or not. We really don't. For all we know, the license could have expired. Maybe this kind of thing happens all the time in business but game developers don't advertise all of the licenses they receive. Telltale happened to this time. Who knows?

You have to remember, even with KQ5-6, Sierra wasn't making these games out of the kindness of their hearts. They were dumbing down the adventure genre with the point and click interface and less options to make it more accessible for new demographics. The entire history of the adventure genre really is one of it being progressively dumbed down....KQ5-6 just happened to tickle mine and yours subjective fancy. But let's not romanticize Sierra. They were a corporation like any other, especially after they became a public company in 1988. They were't going to invest in something that didn't sell. KQ just happened to be what the public liked in the 80s to mid 90s.

And this evidence of continuing devolution is something you support and consider a defense for your case?

My standards and expectations are for a game that has that magical feel, has that sort of atmosphere that made KQ so lovable, that brings back characters I love and introduces new ones, without raping the backstory. A game that introduces fantastic new lands and worlds and incorporates the same mixture of fairy tales, fables, mythology and the like. But I'd hope it'd lean less on fairy tales and more on original ideas or more mature fantasy elements (as KQ5-8 did).

I'm not really a stickler for gameplay. I never was. If I don't like the gameplay, I don't for example, I don't care much for the AGI games. Ideally, in my own little fantasy world, the world wouldn't have moved on from 1996, and we'd get 2D games with or without a narrator that are somewhere between KQ5 to KQ7 in art direction and between KQ5 and KQ6 in tone. I've never been a purist about puzzles...They're just elements to move the story along.

KQ's main appeal to me was the wonderful, beautifully designed worlds and wild characters and villains presented, the feel, the cheesiness, the just sort of innocent feel to things. That can be done in any interface or art style. People's main issue with TT seems to be the puzzle issue. For myself, I've never been big on puzzles as I said. KQ was much more than just a puzzle game to me. They were just sort of triggers to move the story along.

Now does that mean I agree with TT's exact methodology? No. It shouldn't be AS EASY as TT does it, it shouldn't feel like a movie game..But I don't really care about puzzles. I do think the puzzles should be more logical, more intelligent, and more intwined with the story. You can have moments of moon logic or out of left field puzzle solutions (like the Yeti + Pie puzzle)--but it shouldn't be as over board with that as KQ5 was.

So we really aren't on the same page here at all. I consider puzzles paramount. Everybody keeps saying "who cares about puzzles" but I promise you eventually you'll get bored without them. I mean, and I know you addressed this already, but Telltale have already gone the route of removing puzzles. That's where the road leads for better or worse. If you support it you must support that direction. If you don't think the puzzles should be as easy as Telltale's or as hard as KQ5's (I simply just can't agree on the notion that KQ5 is a completely illogical mess of random puzzles that have no connection to the story at all) then I think you're narrowing the field of likelihood to an even smaller window of possibility than you're dreaming it up to be.

But either way I'm sure you'd be happy with something from Telltale, if they still have the license, judging from what you've just told me. They'll certainly provide a new King's Quest that won't rape the backstory or smother you with puzzles. Maybe it'll be everything you wished it would be. Maybe afterwards, though, it'll only feel just ok. That's how I felt about DNF when it came out. I wanted to love it...I really did. I was a big fan and I waited 12+ years for it. In the end, though, I had to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't all that great at all. I'm just afraid the same thing will happen to you when and if a Telltale King's Quest (or any King's Quest) comes out. That's just the way nostalgia works. Nothing will be able to measure up.

And this is where I've learned to accept that moving on and looking to newer horizons is just the more healthy approach instead of pining for old franchises to be reborn again. Again, if it does happen, and happens well, I'll accept it with open arms. But I'm not expecting anything. You only get yourself disappointed that way anyway. Heh, it'd be funny if after it happened I was more happy with it than you because you built it up in your mind as something it can never be and I never did. :)

Well, I understand where you're coming from now. I see that we're not looking for quite the same thing in a King's Quest title, and that's where the bulk of our friction is coming from. Good luck on your wait, I hope it's worth it for you.

[BagginsKQ]

Why are people taking this thread so far off topic?

[Anakin Skywalker]

That's true. I can't dispute that ActiVision were at least considering putting KQ somewhere somewhat more suitable to its namesake. But we don't even know if they still are licensing it to Telltale or not. We really don't. For all we know, the license could have expired. Maybe this kind of thing happens all the time in business but game developers don't advertise all of the licenses they receive. Telltale happened to this time. Who knows?

Exactly, I don't know for sure.


And this evidence of continuing devolution is something you support and consider a defense for your case?

Not something I support so much as that I feel the adventure genre does need to change in some way to survive. Not to the extent that TT has done it, or the way Roberta tried it, but we can't stick to the circa 1990 model that KQ5-6 had, in a commercial game anyway. It'd be perfect if we could. I don't think that adventure games should devolve to the point of being almost non-interactive, ala TT. Something along the lines of like, a more interactive KQ7 would be interesting, something like the route SQ6 took. I'm not arguing a case for TT, more that KQ should survive.


So we really aren't on the same page here at all. I consider puzzles paramount. Everybody keeps saying "who cares about puzzles" but I promise you eventually you'll get bored without them. I mean, and I know you addressed this already, but Telltale have already gone the route of removing puzzles. That's where the road leads for better or worse. If you support it you must support that direction.

I don't feel there should be "no puzzles", I just think there has to be something else that can supplement an adventure game as a story trigger ALONG with puzzles. We can't base the entire game around simplistic puzzles anymore. Maybe harder puzzles, more intelligent ones, I don't know. Maybe some character interactions can be used as story triggers. Puzzles should remain, though, of course. But we have to alter it somewhat to modernize things. Just as things would certainly be boring without puzzles, so is doing the same exact thing with every game. I mean we can't stay stuck to one model. We have to modernize that model, at the very least.

I support KQ continuing. Like I said, TT wasn't the perfect company to go to, from my own perspective, but they're what we've got. From a gameplay perspective I may not like what TT does, but for myself, a bad KQ game is worse than none at all, because if it sells well, it might show people are still interested in the series. At the very least, a TT game offers a chance to have a new adventure game KQ, and I do think TT might change up their methodology to allow for puzzles in a KQ game. They're not stupid people--they know the KQ fanbase is very hard to please and very particular, and what we do and don't like. I'd hope they'd try to change their model a bit for KQ and put puzzles in.

I just want a fighting chance for my favorite series to survive, even if TT isn't the perfect vehicle for this. It's not about 'brand love', it's more that I love the series and don't want it to die completely when there is so much more that can be done, when there are so many more great stories that can be told. I want to go on a new adventure playing as one of the Royal Family in a game that isn't an RPG hybrid or something. I miss the old characters.

In an ideal world, KQ would be in the public domain or Activision would just license it to any interested party, and IA, AGDI, POS, Akril and everyone else could make their own KQ games, all in their own directions with their own ideas. That'd be so amazing.


If you don't think the puzzles should be as easy as Telltale's or as hard as KQ5's (I simply just can't agree on the notion that KQ5 is a completely illogical mess of random puzzles that have no connection to the story at all) then I think you're narrowing the field of likelihood to an even smaller window of possibility than you're dreaming it up to be.

I don't feel KQ5 is an illogical mess myself, but many do nowadays, you know? KQ5 is and always has been my favorite KQ game. Like I said, if time could've stopped in an era where a KQ5 style game would sell tons of copies, that'd be perfect. But nowadays a game with KQ5's kind of puzzles would be mocked by most people.


But either way I'm sure you'd be happy with something from Telltale, if they still have the license, judging from what you've just told me. They'll certainly provide a new King's Quest that won't rape the backstory or smother you with puzzles.

If they could capture KQ5's feel without it being a movie game like Back to the Future, I'd be satisfied. Not happy as a pig in shit, but satisfied. Like I said, adventure games do need puzzles, so I'm not like anti puzzles or anything, I just feel we nee smarter puzzles.


Maybe it'll be everything you wished it would be. Maybe afterwards, though, it'll only feel just ok. That's how I felt about DNF when it came out. I wanted to love it...I really did. I was a big fan and I waited 12+ years for it. In the end, though, I had to come to terms with the fact that it wasn't all that great at all. I'm just afraid the same thing will happen to you when and if a Telltale King's Quest (or any King's Quest) comes out. That's just the way nostalgia works. Nothing will be able to measure up.

DNF? And I know too much about nostalgia. I live in that mindset. But I also realize that nothing is the same....You can't go home again. Even if like, the most perfect KQ game ever--basically a total replication of everything I loved about KQ5 and KQ6 came out--it still wouldn't be the same as it was for me in 1995 or 1996 or 1997 playing those games. But hopefully it'd be enjoyable to me as an adult on it's own merit.


And this is where I've learned to accept that moving on and looking to newer horizons is just the more healthy approach instead of pining for old franchises to be reborn again. Again, if it does happen, and happens well, I'll accept it with open arms. But I'm not expecting anything. You only get yourself disappointed that way anyway. Heh, it'd be funny if after it happened I was more happy with it than you because you built it up in your mind as something it can never be and I never did. :)

Moving on, and accepting that something that symbolizes or is associated with the happiest parts of your childhood is dead and can't come back, is very hard to do, to be frank. KQ was a cornerstone of my childhood, really. I have a lot of emotions and memories attached to the series and a great deal of investment in the series itself emotionally.

I haven't built up TT's game in my mind. It is what is, at best a chance for something I love to survive. I don't expect much in terms of being pleased or disappointed. Being a KQ fan after 1998 is just a story of being disappointed over and over, so I'm sort of emotional numb about it. I'm used to being let down with regard to anything Sierra. My hopes are neither up or down, more neutral on the ground. I want it to happen just so KQ has some fighting chance of being reborn. I have too many things I love dying around me as it is.

I feel if it comes out and is great, PERFECT. If it comes out and sucks, oh well, I always have the old games. That's basically my point of view.


Well, I understand where you're coming from now. I see that we're not looking for quite the same thing in a King's Quest title, and that's where the bulk of our friction is coming from. Good luck on your wait, I hope it's worth it for you.

We actually do agree on KQ. The ideal King's Quest is KQ5 for me; I imagine it might be for you as well. A refined KQ5-esque game--Without the flaws we all can agree on--would be perfect. That would be the ideal new KQ. KQ5 is the gold standard. Where we differ is that you want the series to stay dead and over it emotionally. I'm not over it and probably will never be, and I know that the series could continue and produce so many great entries, if only given the chance. TT's game, if it was successful, would at the very least open the door for more games and show Activision that the series is worth investing in rather than just collecting dust.

It's not so much that I have a different conception of KQ from you, it's more that I realize some things have to change, if it is to survive as an adventure game, because the genre itself has changed. It's not so much that a difference in opinion, more a response to changing times.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't feel KQ5 is an illogical mess myself, but many do nowadays, you know? KQ5 is and always has been my favorite KQ game. Like I said, if time could've stopped in an era where a KQ5 style game would sell tons of copies, that'd be perfect. But nowadays a game with KQ5's kind of puzzles would be mocked by most people.

I agree this is true, but...


If they could capture KQ5's feel without it being a movie game like Back to the Future, I'd be satisfied. Not happy as a pig in shit, but satisfied. Like I said, adventure games do need puzzles, so I'm not like anti puzzles or anything, I just feel we nee smarter puzzles.

...I don't agree that KQ5's puzzles aren't smart or as removed from the story as you and others say they are. Everything felt entirely natural and fitting to me when I played it as a child and when I continue to play it today.

And DNF = Duke Nukem Forever

[Jennifer]

Talking about piracy is not tolerated on this forum. I've cleaned the piracy talk out of this thread. Those who discussed where to pirate games have been banned. Anyone who continues the discussion from here on out will be banned as well. Please keep discussion within the rules of the forum (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6356). Thank you.

[MusicallyInspired]

Well, it's been fun, guys. And with that, I'm bowing out early. Enjoy the games and have a nice forum. Bye.

[exo]

give em a few years musicallyinspired. they can't keep up their insipid baseless optimism forever ;)

[Anakin Skywalker]

give em a few years musicallyinspired. they can't keep up their insipid baseless optimism forever ;)

Tasteless, shallow optimism? More optimism born out of a deep love of the series. If I am any example, I have been in LOVE with King's Quest consistently, without stop, for 18 years now--with no end of my obsession with the series in sight.

[Chyron8472]

Which is a positive quality that I respect.

It's not naïveté to love something and to want to be excited about it.

[exo]

It is naïve to love something so much that you fail to see the critical aspects. And what several of you seem to not understand, is that *everybody* here loved KQ in some form or another. Some of you have allowed that to cloud your judgement however, and you live in a fantasy world where companies don't exist to make money and rather want you to have the best KQ experience possible. While others of us simply have to look at TT's track record and current play style to know that the only way for them to make money off this is to not reinvent the wheel, and rather use their current engine and play mechanics and shove KQ people in.

If you "love" KQ so much that you will eat a shit sanwhich simply because it is labeled KQ, then that is fine by me. You go right ahead, and don't forget to wipe your mouth afterwards. But constantly bitching that not everyone else shares that baseless optimism makes no sense.

And besides all that, currently there is not even a game in the works for you to be optimistic about. So how naive is that?

You guys have fun defending your imaginary game. Meanwhile, back here in reality, I'll judge things based on the evidence available. So if you have any evidence that

A: There is a game in the works
and
B: It will be any different than the current Telltale style

Then please share it so I can get excited too.

[MtnPeak]

I always get here too late after trouble happens. I am dying to know… Who got banned? Am I allowed to ask this?

So, was that cold, terse and snitty farewell MusicallyInspired's final post on the forum? Not nice, especially after Anakin engaged him with many long, thoughtful answers. Disappointing. But I could be reading it wrong!

And back to the subject... Does anyone know about a project that used to be described at www.kq8project.tk?

[MtnPeak]

Which is a positive quality that I respect.

It's not naïveté to love something and to want to be excited about it.

I totally agree.

When did it become a crime to be a passionate KQ fan on a KQ forum?

Besides, some of you act like the chances of a great new KQ happening are as remote as a meteor destroying the earth tomorrow. Seriously, a new King's Quest is very much within the realm of possibility, whether from TTG or someone else. KQ remains one of the best known adventure game series, especially among people over a certain age, and we are seeing renewed interest in bringing back many classic series. We aren't talking about making a new Les Manly game, people. This is King's Quest. It's going to happen. Let's just hope the new game is worthy of the KQ name.

[Jennifer]

I always get here too late after trouble happens. I am dying to know… Who got banned? Am I allowed to ask this?
It's forum policy, and just common courtesy, not to discuss the banned since the banned can't be there to respond to posts about them.

[Darth Marsden]

We aren't talking about making a new Les Manly game, people.A little off topic, but I thought you said Les Mis for a second there, and it brought up memories of this (http://www.gamehouse.com/download-games/les-misrables-cosettes-fate).

*shudder*

[MtnPeak]

A little off topic, but I thought you said Les Mis for a second there, and it brought up memories of this (http://www.gamehouse.com/download-games/les-misrables-cosettes-fate).

*shudder*

At first I thought it was going to be a Les Mis adventure game. That could be pretty cool. Never did get into those hidden object deals.

Also, I was just reading over my little posts in this thread. I just wanted to apologize for getting carried away at times. I didn't mean to be rude.