KQ7 isn't really a "Roberta" game....

[Anakin Skywalker]

If you read through the credits of KQ7, you'll find Robera was barely involved in the game. The credits are rewritten here in the order they are in the booklet:

Designed by:
Lorelei Shannon
Roberta Williams

Written by:
Lorelei Shannon

Directed by:
Andy Hoyos
Lorelei Shannon
Roberta Williams

Producer:
Mark Seibert

Voice Director:
Lorelei Shannon

[BagginsKQ]

Not complete credits (but more detailed);

Designed by Lorelei Shannon, Roberta Williams

Co-designer Lorelei Shannon[5]

Script[6] Written by Lorelei Shannon

Story by Lorelei Shannon, Roberta Williams[7]

Based on original characters created by Roberta Williams[8]

Directors Andy Hoyos, Lorelei Shannon, Roberta Williams

Producer Mark Seibert

Art Director Andy Hoyos

Director of Animation Marc Hudgins

Lead Programmers Oliver Brelsford, Tom DeSalvo

Musicians Neal Grandstaf, Dan Kehler, Mark Seibert, Jay Usher

Voice Director (Voice Casting and Direction) Lorelei Shannon

Character Designs Marc Hudgins

Quality Assurance Lead Dan Woolard

In-House Animation - Chapter 6 Steven Gregory, Sherry Wheeler, Jason Zayas

5.↑ KQ7 Hintbook pg 1
6.↑ in-game credits
7.↑ in-game credits
8.↑ in-game credits

[Lambonius]

Right. Barely involved at all. Just lead design, director, and story credits. No biggie. :rolleyes:

[Anakin Skywalker]

Right. Barely involved at all. Just lead design, director, and story credits. No biggie. :rolleyes:

If she was the lead designer, why was she credited lower than Shannon? Why was she credited last on the list of directors?

Why is Shannon solely listed as writer in the booklet?

That says to me she was barely involved beyond basic ideas and general direction.

I mean, George Lucas is credited as writing the story of Empire Strikes Back...But does anyone really say that Empire was Lucas' baby?

One shouldn't attribute KQ6's greatness to Roberta's lack of involvement, and then damn Roberta for KQ7, if her involvement in both entries was about equal.

[Lambonius]

If she was the lead designer, why was she credited lower than Shannon? Why was she credited last on the list of directors?


Dude--you're really tempting a facepalm here. All the credits are listed alphabetically by last name.

[MusicallyInspired]

Lorelei really did design the game, though. I remember Josh Mandel talking about it. They were still using Sierra's "star" system, or something as Josh calls it. Josh designed LB2, KQ1SCI, and Freddy Pharkas, but those credits go instead to Roberta, Roberta again, and Al Lowe. Now that doesn't mean they were uninvolved or had no say, but I doubt it was as much as Sierra let on.

[BagginsKQ]

This is really the only credit that's kinda strange;

"Based on original characters created by Roberta Williams".

The rest of the credits more or less follow similar format of all previous KQ (though they are not always in 'alphabetical'), and KQ8.


From KQ8 (not the whole credits);

Designer Roberta Williams

Writer Roberta Williams

Producer/Director/Co-Designer
Mark Seibert

Voice Director Roberta Williams Mark Seibert

Voice Casting Roberta Williams Mark Seibert

Documentation Mark Seibert Cheryl Sweeney Roberta Williams

Lorelei really did design the game, though. I remember Josh Mandel talking about it. They were still using Sierra's "star" system, or something as Josh calls it. Josh designed LB2, KQ1SCI, and Freddy Pharkas, but those credits go instead to Roberta, Roberta again, and Al Lowe. Now that doesn't mean they were uninvolved or had no say, but I doubt it was as much as Sierra let on.

As I understand it at least with KQ2SCI, Roberta was very busy on KQ5 at the time, and left Josh Mandel to pretty much do what his own will on the KQ1 remake. He did have to go back and show her his changes, and she was given final approval. For instance, he put in a funny death animation for Edward, and was going to have Graham put the mirror up in the slot on the wall, she didn't like it, and had it removed.

Josh Mandel started at Sierra On-Line in 1990 as an Assistant Producer, his first project being the SCI remake of King's Quest I.
I worked on King's Quest I -SCI, the remake done in 1990. It was my very first project when I came to Sierra; the game had been languishing for awhile because Roberta was so heavily involved with King's Quest V, which was in progress at the same time. While I was officially titled "Producer," Roberta let me get more hands-on: I rewrote most of the actual game text, added a lot of new responses, and slightly altered some of the puzzles. The original game, groundbreaking as it was, was somewhat terse and brief. I tried to make it more fairytale-ish in its prose, so it would fit in better with the much more detailed King's Quest IV and King's Quest V.

Towards the end of the making of King's Quest I -SCI, we had re-orchestrated the final scene in which King Edward dies and King Graham assumes the throne. (The original was a little crude in this area: King Edward would fall over and King Graham would step on him as he walked up to the throne.) We used the same throne room as in King's Quest IV, but the Magic Mirror (one of the three treasures you find during the game) was sitting by the throne rather than in its usual place on the wall, where it figured prominently in King's Quest IV. So I wrote this bit where, as King Edward dies, he says, "I think the Magic Mirror would look best over on that wall" and then points to the wall, sighs, and dies. After Roberta played it, she gently asked if we could change that scene, since she didn't think King Edward would be giving interior decorating tips with his dying breath. I was bummed to have to take it out, but the way Roberta asked was pretty funny. Maybe you had to be there.
-Josh Mandel.

As a point of trivia, the death of Edward was a bit more exaggerated in KQ1 for the PCJr, than it was in later AGI versions. Apparently he twirls about before dieing. They toned it down removing the twirling in later versions.

[BagginsKQ]

One shouldn't attribute KQ6's greatness to Roberta's lack of involvement

Roberta was pretty involved in KQ6. There was maybe two months where she was gone on a trip to Europe, and didn't do much at all...

Ya, Jane Jensen can be credited for much of the tone, mood, darkness of KQ6 in Roberta's own words. But Jane Jensen more or less still 'assisted' Roberta Williams according to Sierra in the overall game production.

It took 14 months to make the game. So Roberta was involved on it about 12 out of 14 months.

This quest seems to have a darker, more ominous tone than the other King’s Quests; it is also more wordy. Is there a reason?

I was thinking that same thing the other day, but I don’t believe we made it intentionally ominous. It just turned out that way.

The reason it’s more wordy is that I didn’t write the text. This is the first time I have had a collaborator. Jane Jensen wrote all the script, and we worked on the story line and character together. We spent a month working together before Ken and I left on a two-month vacation to France.

Jane has a different style than I do, and maybe she is more text oriented. Even her design documents were four times as thick as mine usually are - her fingers just fly on a word processor.


Continuing in a long tradition, Jane Jensen, who would go on to design the industry bestselling Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers, assisted Roberta Williams in game design of this epic.

[BagginsKQ]

There is an interview with Roberta Williams from the Lorelei Shannon, the KQ7 co-designer in the KQ7 hintbook;

So the project was finally winding clown (at least in the design phase). I invited Roberta out to lunch to talk about the seventh King's Quest game. We were relaxing over pasta and iced lattes, talking about dogs and kids, movies, books and games. We caught up on our chatting (which we're wont to do whenever we get together—just ask Ken), and then it was time to get to work. I pulled out my handy-dandy pocket tape recorder and plunked it on the table. Roberta leaned back in her chair, smiling up at the (rarely) blue Seattle sky as I asked her the first question.

Lorelei: I can't believe the King's Quest series is up to seven! We've come a long way since Quest for the Crown. How would you say this King's Quest is different from the KQs that have come before it?

Roberta: This King's Quest has very different animation. I would call it feature-film style, which is a different thing for King's Quest. It also features two protagonists, which is different and unique for the series. Both of them happen to be female, winch I think is an interesting twist. I think having female protagonists added a softer, more whimsical approach to the game.

Lorelei: Less bashing and more thinking?

Roberta: Yeah. Less of the macho element. But I think players will find the puzzles just as challenging and fun. Let's see, how else is it different? Well, it's written in chapters, which you can play in any order. You can skip around, like a book. Although King's Quest VII has a continuous storyline, each chapter is complete in and of itself. They're almost like little mini-games within the larger game. You also alternate characters with the chapters: You're Valanice, then Rosetta, then Valanice, and so on. Of course, they do come together at the end...

Lorelei: So it's more conducive to people's active lifestyles. They're not faced with a huge, endless-looking game; they can actually see goals, and gauge their progress tIi rough the chapters.

Roberta: Yes. Absolutely. But It's still a complete, rich storyline, and a long, satisfying game. The story is more compelling than previous King's Quests, and the art is more like an animated feature film than what people think of as "computer art". I think this one will be a hit in the mass market.

Lorelei: One thing that people always seem to notice about King's Quest is that you put a lot of yourself into the game; plenty of fun and humor. What is your favorite part of the game design process?

Roberta: Hmm. I think my favorite part is coining up with the story at the beginning. You know, thinking about what is this story, who is the character, what are they going to do. It's almost like playing a game yourself. Sometimes when you start, you don't know how the design is going to end. It's kind of a weird, vicarious way of playing your own game before anybody else does. (laughs) In fact, after writing these games. I find it anticlimactic to play someone else's adventure game. I'd rather be designing!

Lorelei: Do you have a favorite part of King's Quest VII?

Roberta: Give me a minute. I've been so immersed in Phantasmagoria!* (laughs) Oh, gosh. I think the Troll Underground is so much fun. I like all the trolls; they have a lot of personality. I also like Ooga Rooga a lot.

Lorelei: That's my favorite part.

Roberta: (laughs) That figures. I don't know. Maybe I just like the more sinister aspects of the game...

Lorelei: Do I sense a little Phantasmagoria creeping in here?

Roberta: That's what it is! Maybe I just got saturated with Phautastnagoria and I can't get it out of my head. (laughs) Anyway, those two areas seem to have a little more humor, and they're a little more tongue-in-cheek and quirky than the rest of the game.
*Footnote: In case you haven't heard, rhautaNmagoria is Roberta's new adult horror game. With a 3-D rendered environment, live videotaped actors, and an ultra-spooky storyline, it's sure to make your hair stand on end and your skin crawl right off your bad!

Lorelei: What do you think is the hardest part of game design?

Roberta: Probably coming up with the proper interface. That's the hardest part. The stories aren't that tough to come up with.

Lorelei: That's the good part.

Roberta: Yup. I would say the toughest things to deal with are the interface and the technical aspects of how you want the game to work. I'm not a technical person by any means, but I have enough of an understanding to know what I can and can't do on the machine. I put lot of thought into that before I start working on a game. There's a certain visionary aspect to that. If you're thinking about a game to be released two years front now, you have to take into account what the technological advances will be.

Lorelei: Do you ever have ideas that are just beyond the ability of the computer to execute?

Roberta: All the time. That's one reason some of my games are ahead of their Hine. I like to push the envelope. My ideas are bigger than reality, for the most part. I always have to take it down a little bit. Of course, I'm in a unique position there. It helps to be a co-founder of Sierra, and to be married to the company's president, Ken Williams.

Lorelei: So you work with Ken during the design process when you're trying to figure out if you can actually do something on the computer?

Roberta: Oh yeah. A lot of people don't realize this, but Ken was a programmer before he was a president of a company, and he was actually an extremely good programmer. lie's worked with compiler development, language development, artificial intelligence, lots of things. There are probably very few people in the computer industry that are better than Ken in the areas of programming and technology. It's just that he doesn't get much time to do that any more.

Lorelei: Do you think he misses it?

Roberta: I know he does. We talk about "One of those days when we're retired, what will we do?" I talk about maybe writing books, he talks about going back to programming. He really loves it. I'm very lucky I can talk to Ken about these ideas.

Lorelei: Are you planning on doing King's Quest VIII?

Roberta: (grins) That's what they tell me.

Lorelei: That's great. What do you see in the future for King's Quest?

Roberta: Boy. At this point in time, I already have two games in my head, and I really don't want to think about a third! The possibilities are endless.

Lorelei: It'll just have to be a surprise.

Roberta: Sure will! (laughs)

So what was it like to work with Roberta? Well, it really wasn't bad. other than the occasional severe beatings she gave me, and the cattle prod she keeps in her desk. MADE YOU LOOK! I'm just kidding. It was terrific. Roberta is a delightful, creative and intelligent person. There's no such thing as impossible when you're working with her. She has a wonderfully infectious laugh, just like a little girl. Sometimes when we were jamming on ideas, coming up with every possible solution we could think of for a puzzle, we'd get really silly and just crack each other up. We'd be there with our heads on the table giggling wildly, and Ken would come in and roll his eyes at us and say "Don't you have WORK to do?" That would only make us giggle harder. let me tell you a secret. That's where great ideas come from—fun. The more you laugh and open your eyes and enjoy the world, the more your mind will open and ideas will flow. Don't get me wrong. Designing King's Quest VII was hard work. Sometimes it was stay-up-all-night-and-drink-coffee-til-your-eyes-bug hard work. But it was always fun, because Roberta made it fun. When you play, I think you'll feel it.

[BagginsKQ]

Oh, a character cut from KQ7 :(... Meet Jack O' Lantern by Andy Hoyos.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/kingsquest/images/5/5f/JackOLanternKQ7.png

Some other cut material;

A mushroom house? Village?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224125038/kingsquest/images/7/7d/Mushroomhouse.png

The Woods would have been larger, including a Ash Tree, a Dryad (maybe modified into Ceres?), Bacchus' Grove (grape arbor), it may have been possible to get lost in the woods as well, as they would have apparently repeated.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110918181824/kingsquest/images/4/42/WoodsmapKQ7.jpg

The Troll Underground contained an additional area off from the mine shaft, that would have included a place called the Fire Town, and that was inhabited by the Flame Folk. Beyond it lie a fire flower guarded by a Smoke Beast (perhaps inspiration for the Shadow Beast in KQ8).

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110918181846/kingsquest/images/c/ce/UndergroundKQ7.jpg

After Valanice's arrest, the moon was not taken from her, and shooting the moon back into the sky does nothing at all to advance the plot other than set an extraneous trigger or two. The entire book/crook/moon sequence is left over from KQ7's original design, which was for a somewhat larger game than the final product. The moon-shot helped solve a problem then. But when KQ7's size was edited down and the original problem deleted, this particular series of events had to be left in so that there would be a cliff-hanger ending for Chapter 3.

Some cool concept art;

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224124813/kingsquest/images/0/00/Pumpkinhouseconcept.png

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224125209/kingsquest/images/3/38/Roseval.png

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224125333/kingsquest/images/5/53/CloudlandKQ7.png

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224125515/kingsquest/images/d/d6/Trollkingconcept.png

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224125735/kingsquest/images/5/56/Woodskq7concept.png

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130224133530/kingsquest/images/e/e9/Desertconceptart2.png

[Anakin Skywalker]

You can't really trust Sierra literature to be accurate though. If Sierra worked under a "star system" where other designers did "name designers" games, of course the literature would make it appear like said name designer did more than they did. To keep up the "image". KQ was associated with Roberta. They had to keep up the "this is a Roberta Williams game" image...

Roberta was busy designing and developing Phantasmagoria while KQ7 was in production. Phantas was her baby...I really doubt at best that KQ7 got anything near her full attention. At worst, I feel she probably only was involved in very basic design and story ideas...Nothing further.

Hell, look at something like InterAction, where Ken Williams wrote his Presidents Corner column acting as "CEO" for about a year after he actually quit as CEO, or the fact that he presented himself in public and in press releases as Sierra's CEO as late as May '97 when he had quit in July '96.

[BagginsKQ]

Hell, look at something like InterAction, where Ken Williams wrote his Presidents Corner column acting as "CEO" for about a year after he actually quit as CEO, or the fact that he presented himself in public and in press releases as Sierra's CEO as late as May '97 when he had quit in July '96.

Or is it the other way around, he really was a CEO, a Co-CEO. But he doesn't want people to actually remember that. Due to some shady things going on at the time.

I'm have my suspcions that Ken Williams even to this day sugar-coats or smooths over certain details.

I'm not exactly sure you can trust anything said then, or anything said now as fully accurate.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Or is it the other way around, he really was a CEO, a Co-CEO. But he doesn't want people to actually remember that. Due to some shady things going on at the time.

I'm have my suspcions that Ken Williams even to this day sugar-coats or smooths over certain details.

I just think Sierra, even in his day, before CUC, was very concerned with image. Look at what Josh has said about the "star system"--wherein big name designers would get credit for others' work, to maintain that system. Who's to say that that wasn't the case with KQ7? Lorelei might've 99% of the game and design, with Roberta only pitching some VERY GENERAL ideas in the way of direction (IE, "The game should be done in Disney style art; Rosella and Valanice should be the protagonists; Edgar should return"). And then it was credited as being "co-designed" by Roberta....

Look at for example how SQ6 was promoted by Sierra as being Scott Murphy's "return", when he only designed the last bit of the game, with like 95% of the game already done by Josh Mandel, but as soon as he quit Sierra, the game was promoted as being basically a solo-Scott game.

[BagginsKQ]

I don't think you can entirely trust anything said then, or anything said now...

In my own questions to various designers, or based on various interviews, or various forum posts, you get answers such as;

"it was a long time ago, I barely remember, I think it was like this" or the "maybe in hindsight that we didn't have at the time", blah blah.

Beyond that, I do think some of them are very 'image' oriented, even today, they don't want give a negative image on certain topics.

[Lambonius]

My baseless speculation could beat up your baseless speculation.

[BagginsKQ]

KQ7 hintbook btw, suggests that Roberta was the 'designer', and that Lorelei was the 'co-designer', in Lorelei's own words. She wrote the book.

[Blackthorne519]

Yeah. In the end, who really gives a fuck?


Bt

[Anakin Skywalker]

Why do you guys stick around here if:

A) You're "over" King's Quest and don't want anyone to ever make another KQ game?

B) You don't even like people discussing the old games, and have the attitude to "who gives a fuck?" about discussion of the old games.

It would just seem you're here at this point only to dampen the enthusiasm of anyone who wants a new KQ, TT or not. That you're just here to be negative about TT's game in order to ensure it never comes out, and to just spread negativity about any future KQ game in general, and to come down on anyone who feels like discussing the old games.

At first you guys claimed you were only against TT doing a new KQ and were open to a better company doing it, now you've made it clear you're against ANY new King's Quest game. I imagine your tune would change if your own group was offered the license. Makes me wonder if you spreading as much negative vibes and word of mouth about TT doing a KQ game as you did was just to get others to feel the game would suck, to ensure that no new KQ game was made.

Why stick around a forum made to discuss a series you hope is never revived and have no care in discussing the old games of?

[BagginsKQ]

They enjoy living in misery, and want everyone to bask in that misery with them... It makes them happy if they make others feel miserable... They feed off the misery of others...

Kinda like energy vampires.

http://www.healthyheyday.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Energy-Vampire.jpg

http://futurepull.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/energy-vampires.jpg

[Blackthorne519]

No, not really. I like having conversations about King's Quest, but the shit that goes on here is ridiculous.


Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

Why do you guys stick around here if:

A) You're "over" King's Quest and don't want anyone to ever make another KQ game?

Not this again. I think we've made our point about this enough times.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Not this again. I think we've made our point about this enough times.

My point is directed more at BT than you. But no, you actually haven't made your point about this. Only very recently have I seen you guys come out and say you don't want ANY new KQ game....beforehand most of you guys were against a TELLTALE KQ game.

[MusicallyInspired]

A while back I would have wanted one. Nowadays, I'm just happy to let it sit. It had its day in the sun. It was great and it's better as a fond memory. Bt is right, it could have been worse. It could have ended off with something as terrible as Magna Cum Laude or Box Office Bust like LSL did. It's time to break new ground and find a new series or franchise to fall in love with. Like pretty much all of the ex-Sierra designers have done on Kickstarter. They all started new projects. I think that's the way to go. Two Guys with SpaceVenture, Jane Jensen with Mobieus, The Coles with Rogue Hero U or whatever it is, etc. I'm just done with the past now. If I want to experience it I'll play the old games. I don't really think there's much more to be gained from a new game. If they do make a new game and it's awesome AWESOME! I'll totally jump on that bandwagon with the rest of you! But It's unnecessary. Furthermore, I don't think it's what we should be focusing on when it comes to games and new material. It's not a good headspace to be in. You become cynical of everything eventually (nothing's as good as the good old days!). Yes, I do think a lot of game devs have a long way to go to match what I consider the epitome of Sierra's adventure genre, but I'm not against new franchises. I used to reject all new games on that basis because my love for King's Quest and Space Quest was so strong and in my mind nothing could match them. I'm ready to move on. It took probably a decade, but I'm ready. Judging by your post in the other thread:

And just because new franchises are not KQ doesn't mean they'll be anywhere as good as KQ was. Nor will I likely come to love any of them as much as I came to love KQ over the course of that series.

...tells me you're already flirting with that point of view. Dangerous mindset to be in. You're stifling yourself in your taste. We will never see the best game ever because personally I still believe the human race has it within itself to always make a new and better thing. It hasn't happened much lately but every now and then it does. It's possible. And it doesn't have to have the name King's Quest on it.

I'm not saying I love all modern games. I still say they don't make them like they used to. But now we've got the guys who made games like they used to making new games! I want to see what else they can do...let the old things lie. Or at least don't be so adamant and passionate about it. If it comes it comes. If it sucks it sucks. If it's awesome it's awesome. Nothing you can really do about it, unless you want to design a new perfect King's Quest game yourself and pitch it to ActiVision and scrounge up a license. There's nothing you can do.

[Blackthorne519]

Because, I'm against propping up a corpse to rely on it's good name. Any modern take on it is going to be some bloated display of a lack of insight, with the KQ name slapped on it. That's more insulting than letting something lie. Letting things be is the way of the world. Things are meant to end. All we get these days are shitty sequels - in games, movies, books. It's all so depressing.


Bt

[BagginsKQ]

Hero U, is set in the Quest for Glory Universe... It is a sequel set some twenty years after the previous game in the series. Its apparently just avoiding using anything directly owned by Activision. They can get away with using anything with name derived from public domain though. It will have Silmaria though, apparently.

Its unclear but it looks like it will be more RPG than 'adventure', much like the previous game in the universe.

SpaceVenture may also be set in the Space Quest universe, it is unclear as of yet. Although it does appear it may have the Two Guys in it.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yet it's not Quest for Glory. It's not even the same genre.

[BagginsKQ]

Hah, I talked to Corey Cole as far as he is concerned it is "Quest For Glory", they just don't have the rights to the name. He said it will have many things in common with the previous series. But like QFG5 it will be more action RPG than 'adventure'. That's how they wanted to do the series anyways, even the previous games, just technology was never up to their vision at the time.

What's interesting here though, is technically the Coles vision, and if Activision ever chooses do anything with the universe, could end up on divergent paths!

Kinda what happened somewhat with Fallout universe.

[MusicallyInspired]

It's still qualifies as something new by being a different genre.

[Blackthorne519]

Kinda funny how it wasn't their vision, yet everyone loved it anyway.


Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, it doesn't matter what they intended. The product speaks for itself. People love the product more than the person's vision in most cases. I wouldn't have given QFG a second thought if it was all RPG. I haven't given it much more than a couple glances and a bit of small talk as it is, but it just goes to show that that adventure half of the hybrid goes a long way. If they did get the rights to QFG and made this new game with that title, it would have probably not done as well.

[Blackthorne519]

Yeah, it doesn't matter what they intended. The product speaks for itself. People love the product more than the person's vision in most cases. I wouldn't have given QFG a second thought if it was all RPG. I haven't given it much more than a couple glances and a bit of small talk as it is, but it just goes to show that that adventure half of the hybrid goes a long way. If they did get the rights to QFG and made this new game with that title, it would have probably not done as well.

Exactly! Sometimes you don't get what you intend, but what comes out is better. Absolutely - if they tried to release a game entitled "Quest For Glory" with what they presented for Hero-U, people would have thrown cow-pies.


Bt

[Lambonius]

Much like Roberta's "vision" for King's Quest, I don't really think the Coles understood why people loved their games. They certainly don't seem to grasp it if they think Hero U is going to satiate people's desire for more Quest For Glory.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Much like Roberta's "vision" for King's Quest, I don't really think the Coles understood why people loved their games. They certainly don't seem to grasp it if they think Hero U is going to satiate people's desire for more Quest For Glory.

Only certain fan groups understand why people loved Sierra's games. Not even the original creators. Damn.

[BagginsKQ]

What the purist/original fans want isn't always marketable... Sometimes the new generation of fans or 'potential customers' define the direction a series will take... Often to the chagrin of old time fans...

Oddly enough as Kickstarter has proven, people were willing to fund Hero-U even it isn't quite what they were expecting... I doubt it would have pulled in new fans, based on how kickstarter target audiences work...

[MusicallyInspired]

They're probably hoping that the Coles will at least provide a certain "Coles" mixture of comedy, art, gameplay style, storytelling, programming, etc (aka "something special", "magic") that they were responsible for with QFG. The real test here is to see if they still have that.

[Lambonius]

They're probably hoping that the Coles will at least provide a certain "Coles" mixture of comedy, art, gameplay style, storytelling, programming, etc (aka "something special", "magic") that they were responsible for with QFG. The real test here is to see if they still have that.

And my point/concern is that that "magic" isn't enough. I think the framework of the adventure/rpg hybrid is a big part of what made the formula work. The rest, what you just mentioned, is window dressing. Exaggeration? Of course. But the point is that it won't feel like QFG if it doesn't PLAY like QFG.

[MusicallyInspired]

Very probable. I'm just saying, that's probably what most people are looking at.

[Blackthorne519]

They're probably hoping that the Coles will at least provide a certain "Coles" mixture of comedy, art, gameplay style, storytelling, programming, etc (aka "something special", "magic") that they were responsible for with QFG. The real test here is to see if they still have that.


Yeah, exactly - the real test is to see if that have "that". It's very unproven to me, honestly - Hero-U did nothing to make me very excited. I hope I'm wrong, but the pitch for the project was very vague and only time will tell on what kind of game they will actually deliver.


Bt

[Chyron8472]

Only certain fan groups understand why people loved Sierra's games. Not even the original creators. Damn.I think what he's saying is that people can love a product for reasons the creators don't expect or understand. So, when they make a new product many years later which is based on the original, there is no guarantee they will hit the same chord with people that the original did.


Case in point: George Lucas.

On the other hand, Star Trek (2009) is, for me, a masterful example of how something is new and yet totally reminiscent of the original, without the original creator even being involved.

So the original creator may not, themselves, really understand what their original vision was, given the space of time between now and the original project. Rather the fans may have a better understanding of what they loved about it.


However, none of this speaks anything to whether TTG would make a good KQ game or not. It only speaks to how valuable Roberta Williams' input is.

[Blackthorne519]

However, none of this speaks anything to whether TTG would make a good KQ game or not. It only speaks to how valuable Roberta Williams' input is.

Yeah, exactly - this is what we're talking about here. A game being a "Roberta" game and the cult of hero worship over her name, really.


Bt

[Anakin Skywalker]

Yeah, exactly - this is what we're talking about here. A game being a "Roberta" game and the cult of hero worship over her name, really.


Bt

Not hero worship--more admiration of a talented woman who made 5 undeniably classic games, and had varying levels of involvement in 3 games--only one of which is truly disliked, and one of which is considered one of the best adventure games ever made. Her record speaks for itself.

As for the Lucas comparison--Lucas KNOWS what the fans want. He just doesn't give a shit. Read any interview. He doesn't care what fans want. This is a guy who wears "Han Shot First" t-shirt just to piss off purist fans.

[Chyron8472]

As for the Lucas comparison--Lucas KNOWS what the fans want. He just doesn't give a shit.He knows now. He didn't know what they wanted or what made the Original Trilogy so great when he made the prequels.

Also, in comparing King's Quest to Star Wars, KQ6 is often regarded as the best in the series, and so is The Empire Strikes Back. Yet both of them were much the product of someone else's work instead of the original creator. In fact, people consider the reason why ESB is regarded as better than ROTJ to be because of Lucas' influence over ROTJ's production.

[Anakin Skywalker]

He knows now. He didn't know what they wanted or what made the Original Trilogy so great when he made the prequels.

Also, in comparing King's Quest to Star Wars, KQ6 is often regarded as the best in the series, and so is The Empire Strikes Back. Yet both of them were much the product of someone else's work instead of the original creator. In fact, people consider the reason why ESB is regarded as better than ROTJ to be because of Lucas' influence over ROTJ's production.

KQ6 is a 50/50 Roberta/Jane product. Roberta was deeply involved with the development with the exception of two months and wrote up her own design document. KQ6 is more an example of a collaboration...Two great minds at work riffing off each other. Sort of like The Talisman by Straub and King.

ESB is more that Lucas really didn't want to go through all the stress of making another movie and largely delegated everything to the director, only approving the final script and drafting the basic story.

Robert's involvement in KQ7 is more comparable to Lucas' level of involvement in ESB, basically bare minimum general direction/design/basic story ideas....KQ8 its very murky because she wanted her name taken off the game at a point late in development because she felt the game wasn't what she wanted it to be anymore. Only some minor changes and a lot of negotiation kept her name on KQ8.

And like I said before, the last pure, undeniably 100% Roberta game is KQ5, and that's generally beloved as one of the best of the series as well...Like I said, Roberta's 5 core KQ games stand on their own as classics....Along with all her pre-KQ games and the first Laura Bow and Phantas...Lucas' record was more of a guy who got really lucky.

[BagginsKQ]

KQ8 its very murky because she wanted her name taken off the game at a point late in development because she felt the game wasn't what she wanted it to be anymore. Only some minor changes and a lot of negotiation kept her name on KQ8.


Actually it looks like she didn't want her name on it as early as mid development. Mid-late 1996 to early-mid 1997ish. About the time Davidson was sending bullies to force their ideas into the game.

It seems early mockups for posters or box mockups don't seem to mention Roberta. Sierra was also reusing alot of early 1996 footage with Roberta but edited into new footage in the 1997 promo video but didn't really have anything new from her personally.

She started actively posting and interacting with the fans about middle to late 1997 (this was still about halfway point) up to the games release, and getting back into interviews at the time. She was the ideas going into the game. This is also about the time the KQ8 website was actively advertising it as a Roberta Williams game, and magazines as well. Keep in mind at this point in time most of in game screenshots and concept art on the website were of the finalized game. Nearing the end of 1997 especially so. So it seems finalized ideas were already pretty much in place by end of 1997 into early 1998, and around the time or early 1998 they were doing the finishing touches looking for actors ect, and everything needed to ship it on hits Holiday release date.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Actually it looks like she didn't want her name on it as early as mid development. Mid-late 1996 to early-mid 1997ish. About the time Davidson was sending bullies to force their ideas into the game.

It seems early mockups for posters or box mockups don't seem to mention Roberta. Sierra was also reusing alot of early 1996 footage with Roberta but edited into new footage in the 1997 promo video but didn't really have anything new from her personally.

She started actively posting and interacting with the fans about middle to late 1997 (this was still about halfway point) up to the games release, and getting back into interviews at the time. She was the ideas going into the game. This is also about the time the KQ8 website was actively advertising it as a Roberta Williams game, and magazines as well. Keep in mind at this point in time most of in game screenshots and concept art on the website were of the finalized game. Nearing the end of 1997 especially so. So it seems finalized ideas were already pretty much in place by end of 1997 into early 1998, and around the time or early 1998 they were doing the finishing touches looking for actors ect, and everything needed to ship it on hits Holiday release date.

Except that the trouble continued even into '98 itself. The game had an original Holiday '97 release, which it missed. It was then going to be released numerous times throughout 1998--One of the dates was in June, another in August, etc, until it was finally released in December. There were issues with management, issues with the budget, the management (even after the Davidson's were gone) weren't really supportive of Roberta because they felt they were investing money in a dead genre.

Towards the end, according to what Ken Williams once told me, Roberta basically began desperately trying to mosey it back to being *her* game, along with trying to perfect the game, and Sierra floated the idea of suing her if she didn't hand over the game. She negotiated with them, made some very minor changes, and allowed her name on the final product. But never really considered it fully her own game. Even Mark Seibert said there were a lot of other voices in the final product, and at times he had to act in between Roberta and the new management, which was not fun.

[BagginsKQ]

Missing a release date probably has little to do with "I wont put my name on it" it only shows that they had to extend the release date, because of other development issues.

We do know that she was putting her name on it as early as mid 1997, and was connecting her self to it via the early fall 1997 website/forums in which she took part in. In which she was taking alot of flack for her decisions, but in which she stood up for as her ideas, and she was sticking with them. Unfortunately that early website is not accessible. There are those who remember it (there are a few transcripts out there on other sites that can be found through use of Wayback if you know or can figure out where to look), but what little is left to know about it is limited to a couple of mentions in old magazines. We can also track interviews from her about mid-1997.

It was the hullabaloo from 1996 to mid 1997 with Davidson though that really set things back, and probably lead to all the later new deadline issues. It was the Davidsons that essentially destroyed the version of the game you saw in the early 1996 video. The one you have said you preferred the look of in the past. His additions to the team pretty much wanted to rewrite the story, and remove all references to spiritualism and religious themes. Which as we know was the whole point to Roberta's overall story.

The deadline issues, were probably further compounded by having to switch engines midstream to improve things to compete with modern technology at the time (which lead to having to redo many of the assets to improve them into modern technology). Certain artists leaving the project, and having to get new artists to replace them. But engine switching, and artist replacements probably had nothing to do with the 'take my name off it' issue. Unless she had little patience, and was a whiner... Personally I think she had alot more patience than you would give her. From what I've been told, she was actually the one who asked for the extentions so the game could be made, there was actually thought to completely abandon it at one point (since it was in an unfinished state and not something that could be released on the market).

Sierra had quite a few games that had to have the release dates pushed back.

Including and not limited to Red Baron 2 (which was supposed to be released long before KQ8).

Just look at Telltale its always missing release dates, and pushing games back... Not limited for example Walking Dead season 1, Fables, and potentially the King's Quest game. Plus a few others. Which if they had been following original release dates Walkign dead would have been out about two years ago, and Fables out one and a half years ago. The new King's Quest was never given a firm date. But many fans believed it should have come out two years ago, around the time it was first announced...!

BTW, if you were paying attention, John Shroades apparently left the company about the same time Davidson did. I don't know the exact timing on that, or the month (For Davidson it was late January or so). We don't know all the reasons behind it, other than he wasn't too happy with the early 3-d technology he had to work with. But I'd venture to guess it probably also had something to with the Davidsons interference, if Shroades wasn't also wasn't affected during the period that the company heads were thinking about shutting down the game completely.

He went over to work for Microsoft in 1997 though, so he wasn't without a job.

http://www.jwshroades.com/resume.html

Jason Piel ended up replacing him, that affected the art style, and lead to completely new art direction for many things (only a few things from John Shroades time remain in the game, but in a modified manner).

Also about the same time the game also lost Adam Szofran, Al Eufrasio, and Layne Gifford... Layne was one of the ones involved in the level design, textures and many of the 3d objects. That right there could have lead to some levels being cut. Having to move his position onto someone else. Adam was responsible for the sound, UI, and some of the physics development... Bet that helped gut the water physics, and some of the other physics based puzzles she had planned for the game...

All three continued to work for Sierra after they left Mask. Rumor has it that at least with Al Eufrasio that he was moved into another project when the higher ups were thinking of canning the game. He later quite Sierra when he was faced with possiblity of working on the game again. He was apparently one of the head animators on the game. But I haven't found much on his specific work in the game, nor any idea how his particular loss would have impacted the game, and slowed down the release schedule. Still losing a staff member, and transfer his duties to another member, or even possibly having to hire a new staff member, and get them up to speed. Would certainly have an impact on the game's development time.

http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/KQ8_development#Losing_the_Art_Director_.26_other_ staff_changes

[Anakin Skywalker]

It was the hullabaloo from 1996 to mid 1997 with Davidson though that really set things back, and probably lead to all the later new deadline issues. It was the Davidsons that essentially destroyed the version of the game you saw in the early 1996 video. The one you have said you preferred the look of in the past. His additions to the team pretty much wanted to rewrite the story, and remove all references to spiritualism and religious themes. Which as we know was the whole point to Roberta's overall story.

The Davidsons were only involved with Sierra from mid September 1996 to late January 1997. Davidson & Associates, Inc. were acquired on the same day as Sierra by CUC on July 24th 1996, and then in September, CUC Software was created to manage CUC's new software business. Bob Davidson was chosen to lead CUC Software, which thus put Ken Williams under him in the power structure and Sierra under him. Ken had tried to get around this when negotiating the CUC deal. To negate this, he sold Sierra only under the following conditions:

1) That a software board was to be created, which would consist of himself, Michael Brochu (COO and President of Sierra), Davidson, the head of Blizzard, and some CUC execs. This board would act as a board of directors and would decide on "big" decisions, like acquiring other software companies and jettisoning current product lines. CUC agreed with this idea during the negotiations for Sierra's sale, but the group ended up never meeting.

2) Ken was to be made a Vice Chairman of CUC overall. In theory, this would put him above Davidson in the overall company structure, and thus ensure Davidson wouldn't unduly influence Sierra. He was officially made a Vice Chairman of CUC in September 1996 (same time as CUC Software was put into being), but soon realized his office had little actual power.

3) Sierra would retain it's own sales force.

4) Ken would remain responsible for Sierra's R&D

Sierra's sales division was combined with Davidson's and this led to problems. In Ken's words: "Sierra's sales force was consolidated with Davidsons, and there were problems with the Davidson sales force selling Sierra products. They had been selling educational software which had a very different sales profile than computer games. There were also issues with a cultural difference between selling preschool software and Leisure-Suit Larry. Some of our biggest hits were offensive to some people at Davidson. It was an issue no one had expected."

Ken has said that he and Davidson had many "territorial" battles, which exhausted him, and since he had no real power over Davidson, he began to focus less on Sierra and more on CUC's "NetMarket" project, because he couldn't bear to helplessly watch his company be ripped apart.

Then, suddenly and unexpectedly, Davidson and his wife left CUC in January 1997, and Davidson & Associates was slowly phased out and absorbed into Blizzard (it's former subsidiary) and Knowledge Adventure (another educational software company owned by CUC). Instead of making Ken the new CEO of CUC Software, they brought in a guy named Chris McLeod, who had no previous software industry experience, to lead the company.

At this point, Ken focused more on CUC's NetMarket product and his duties as Vice Chairman and Michael Brochu became Sierra's day to day leader. Brochu was in some ways Ken's chosen successor and he had been leading Sierra day to day since being appointed President and COO in 1995. Ken had appointed him to this position so Brochu could deal with all the "paperwork"--all the day to day issues of running a public company, while Ken could focus more on the creative end.

Brochu ran Sierra as Ken's vision intended, but he suddenly resigned from Sierra in October 1997. In response to this, Chris McLeod broke Sierra into three business units:

Three former vice presidents of Sierra - Bill Moore, Scott Lynch, and Randy Dersham - were given the title senior vice president and put in charge of the new units.

Moore would be responsible for Sierra's Home Production line, Berkeley Systems line, and all on-line gaming products;

Lynch would look after Sierra Northwest (Bellevue), Sierra Oakhurst, and Impressions Software; Dursham was put in charge of all sports-related projects including Papyrus and Front Page Sports products.

Scott Lynch is sarcastically "thanked" in the KQ8 booklet as being one of the reasons KQ8 wasn't out sooner.

At the same time this happened, Ken left CUC Inc. totally in November 1997, saying: "Sierra is being run now by three different people; Scott Lynch, Randy Dersham and Bill Moore. Each of these guys has a third of the company....I am not running Sierra today and haven't been since the sale of the company over a year ago. CUC is a big shopping company, and I was working with them to create their Internet shipping site--www.netmarket.com. I miss running Sierra, but Scott, Randy and Bill are good people and will build solid product. I'm still involved with Sierra, but more as an advisor at product strategy meetings. I do love Sierra and creating games, but after 18 years I'm ready for a new challenge, and Sierra is in good hands."

From October '97 to June '98, Sierra was without any CEO. Thus you had a company with over 1,500 employees without any clear leader, but instead three guys leading separate parts of it, all reporting to a guy who was a clear "suit" who had no experience in the software industry, who had no idea what Sierra was all about. I imagine the ripple effects of this effected KQ8's development--and God knows how those guys and McLeod acted toward Roberta or toward KQ8. I am quite certain that a lot of trouble happened in this period...

In December '97, CUC merged with HFS (a huge owner of numerous hotel chains) to become Cendant, a massive conglomerate with over 50,000 employees. Sierra became part of Cendant Software.

Then in January 1998, Sierra was reorganized AGAIN, into:
Sierra Attractions (For lifestyle related products)
Sierra Home (For home products)
Sierra Sports (For sports products)
Sierra Studios (Bellevue, Impressions Software, Pyrotechnix, run by Scott Lynch)
Yosemite Entertainment (Oakhurst)

This reorganization and CUC's merger with HFS led to yet another shuffling around of employees and executives and more layers of bureaucracy. I imagine some of these bureacratic types were probably growing tired of Roberta: From their POV, she'd spent 2 million dollars over 2 years thus far on a game in a dead genre.

In June 1998, Sierra finally picked David Grenewetzski as CEO. He too felt adventure games were dead and would be the guy who would kill Oakhurst and lay off the entire adventure game division of Sierra in January 1999, and he'd announce that the release of Gabriel Knight 3 marked Sierra's last adventure game.

In the middle of this, all throughout '98, it was slowly revealed that CUC had been engaged in massive amouns of fraud and cooking their books for decades, and they had used Sierra's name and accountants in a lot of this activity from around the Fall of 1996 onward. CUC used the names and accountants of all their subsidiaries to artificially inflate their income. This is in essence why they bought Sierra and other companies--to use them as cover for illegalities. This devastated Sierra's profitability as a company and wiped out the 401ks of many longtime Sierra employees--all of whom were innocent or didn't know of CUC's illegal doings.

Throughout 1998, as Cendant's stock tanked, Sierra's future was totally in doubt. Cendant wasn't sure whether it was going to close the software division, retain it, spin it off as a separate company, or sell it. Disney, Havas and a number of others offered to buy Sierra, and about a month before KQ8 was released, Sierra was sold again to Havas, who was very quickly bought by Vivendi....

So, really, with all these massive leadership changes, reorganizations, restructurings, mergers, acquisitions, and general chaos, I imagine all of these things played a LARGE part in KQ8's troubled development, and in Roberta losing total control over the game as people who were either unsupportive of her or even the idea of KQ8 and adventure games became directly in charge of Sierra....

Actually, with all the craziness that went on during KQ8's development, we're lucky we got a game out of it at all. I don't think KQ8's flaws should be laid totally on Roberta's shoulders or used as "evidence" of her not understanding what the fans wanted or being out of touch...There were so many factors at play.

[BagginsKQ]

In anycase we have on record from John Shroades, that he quite because he disagreed with Roberta on her vision to create a game in 3D, because the technology was not up to the level he felt was appropriate for such a game. The others who left the game about the same time may have left due to his influence, in agreement. One has to wonder if Davidson had any influence on their decision as well, and perhaps they may have been part of the schism that sided more towards the Davidson's ideas.

In anycase while I'm sure that those who butted heads with Roberta over the use of 3D, as well as problems with the Davidson's staff trying to force their vision on her as well would all be good reasons for her to want to leave her name off the game. However, I seriously doubt she would continue to complain when some of the most vocal competition against her vision quite, allowing her to have more direct control of the game (even if it meant she had to replace the crucial positions that they held in the development of the game). I'm pretty sure she would have more likely to replace those positions with people that would be more subordinate to her control. But having to replace them would certainly have helped delay the game further.

However, my point is we can petty much pinpoint when Roberta got rid of some of the internal game staff working on the game that were in conflict with her, and were trying to push their own viewpoints into into the stew pot, and overide her decisions. As well as about the time she started to put her full name into as well.

Yes the outside forces were causing problems. But that was more of a the game could have been cancelled all together because of the waste of time, money and resources with nothing to show for it, than a they were trying to influence the direction and type of game itself issue.

Dynamix's own delays to Red Barion II was an outside force, that Roberta had no control over, nor did Sierra's managers. But that caused her problems, and lead to delays as well. But its certainly not something she could complain about as others trying to control the vision of her game. Since their work had nothing directly to do with KQ8. She just wanted to have use of the engine they were working on for Red Baron II when they were finished, as it was more robust and would have offered more features, that the earlier Red Baron engine couldn't handle. Again that's out of her hands, and not something she could point blame to other than try to get more time for development due to the delay. But not something that would remotely have anything to do with trying to force new ideas into her game, like internal team members like the Davidson supervisors or John Shroades had done.

It would be whining, and a temper tantrum if she said I don't want my name on this game, because she didn't have the engine to finish it. Instead she and her team showed the initiative and took control by building a new engine for themselves. Of course that also lead to more of a delay, as it essentially had to be written from scratch. This didn't give them enough time to put in all the features they wanted to have in the engine in the first place. But it was an improvement over what they were working with previously.

The ultimate direction of the game we can pretty much put squarely on Roberta's shoulders, and we know this direction existed as early as late 1995, or to early 1996 (according to her various early interviews). We know of several 'internal' conflicts with supervisors or team staff who tried to rest control of the direction of the game from her, over the course of a particular time range. During which point we barely got anything from Roberta herself about the game, until right after those crew members left the team.

[Anakin Skywalker]

The ultimate direction of the game we can pretty much put squarely on Roberta's shoulders, and we know this direction existed as early as late 1995, or to early 1996 (according to her various early interviews). We know of several 'internal' as placed direction into the game's development supervisors or team staff that became verbably in conflict with her and tried to rest control of the direction of the game from her, over the course of a particular time range. At which point we barely got anything from Roberta herself about the game. Until right after those crew members left the team.

I disagree...While certain core elements (Connor, action, 3D) can be attributed to Roberta, the question is...Would Roberta have had AS MUCH violence if not for the eternal factors (people above not believing in Roberta/adventure games/KQ8, changing demographics, the popularity of games like Tomb Raider)?

Would the game have been more cohesive, perhaps, if there wasn't so much eternal and internal turmoil in and around Sierra?

Might an overall better, more cohesive game have resulted if things weren't constantly changing?

Would there have been the RPG elements?

I don't think you should count out the influence of people like the executives who ran Cendant and Sierra after 1997....They're the guys who have the final say moneywise etc

[BagginsKQ]

Roberta was talking about Doom as inspiration as early as 1994 and 1995 (in her own words)... Doom is about as violent as you could go back then.

Doom btw actually was kinda 2D (2.5D) engine giving the illusion of 3D, but didn't actually have true 3-D, and utilized an optical illusion to give sense of height and depth. Much more primitive than the engine she ultimately ended up with. THe Build engine in Duke Nukem which she also took for inspiration was also a 2.5D technology although it was slightly more robust.

Keep in mind that KQ8 is no where near as violent as any of those games she took inspiration from. Which actually went more towards shock gore at the time, blood and guts everywhere.

Tomb Raider came out in 1996, while she was still trying to design her game, it beat her game to the market, and in many ways has some features that are way ahead of even the final product (swimming physics), although maybe slightly less graphically robust in some areas (tomb raider used alot of 2-d sprite assets for some details, like plants), and many enemy and lara's own model were slightly more boxy... It thus through the game she decided to take more ideas from it, such as giving Connor more acrobatic abilities.

Now admittingly, it was probably Seibert who first made the suggestion for ingame enemies. But she was totally all for it, after he made the suggestion. Because they found the huge explorabe map of Daventry (the first map they were working on) rather empty without anything to interactive with. But she hired Seibert because she had worked with him in past collaborations, and they were pretty good at bouncing ideas off each other. He always deferred to her in final decisions. They said that the idea to put in enemies was decided on pretty early in development.

Incidently, the monster combat/action stuff was some of the very first material they worked on when designing the game. It was the first stuff they programmed into the game, besides the map ideas. Even before they started on any puzzle ideas.

Basically an early map of Daventry was the first thing physical thing built for the game as a test, and adding enemies into that map was the second thing they did. This is of course probably not the same Daventry map that appears in the finalized game of course. Maybe it was that one with road going through the trees, and the little village with the square, and a couple of buildings. Probably also included that farm seen in a few early screenshots.

That is why there were so many screenshots of enemies in early magazines, and in the early video.

[Lambonius]

Hero worship based on ignorance.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Hero worship based on ignorance.

Ignorance of what, exactly? It's not hero worship, more respect and admiration for a woman who created many classic games and had a big hand in crafting the adventure genre.

[Blackthorne519]

Respect would be leaving her and her legacy alone, and moving on to something different.


Bt

[Lambonius]

Ignorance of what, exactly?

Ignorance of any of the actual inside workings or design process of Sierra, beyond what was described in press releases and officially sanctioned interviews. Add to that naivete of the fact that the "cult of Roberta" was clearly a very carefully crafted PR campaign designed to sell more games based on name recognition, just like the "cult of Jane Jensen" or the Two Guys From Andromeda. Star power sells. That's why no one beyond hardcore Sierra nerds knows who Lorelei Shannon or Josh Mandel are, among others.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Respect would be leaving her and her legacy alone, and moving on to something different.


Bt

I really don't think she cares either way. Now you've gone from "I don't care, I've moved on" to "I want to ensure KQ stays dead, no matter what anyone else feels." Odd that you care so much.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Ignorance of any of the actual inside workings or design process of Sierra, beyond what was described in press releases and officially sanctioned interviews. Add to that naivete of the fact that the "cult of Roberta" was clearly a very carefully crafted PR campaign designed to sell more games based on name recognition, just like the "cult of Jane Jensen" or the Two Guys From Andromeda. Star power sells. That's why no one beyond hardcore Sierra nerds knows who Lorelei Shannon or Josh Mandel are, among others.

So, basically, you're saying Roberta was a hack from day one? No credit whatsoever?

[Lambonius]

So, basically, you're saying Roberta was a hack from day one? No credit whatsoever?

Well, she did do some pretty nice graphics for Mystery House.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Well, she did do some pretty nice graphics for Mystery House.

Wow. So, Roberta had little to nothing to do with KQ1-5?

[Lambonius]

Wow. So, Roberta had little to nothing to do with KQ1-5?

I wouldn't say that. Her name and face on the back of the box helped sell games. At least after KQ1.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I wouldn't say that. Her name and face on the back of the box helped sell games. At least after KQ1.

I think you've gone off the deep end.

[MusicallyInspired]

He's more right than you're willing to admit, though the presence of hyperbole is not exaggerated (no pun intended).

[Blackthorne519]

Heh. This is amusing.

Bt

[MtnPeak]

I remember reading that Roberta wasn't happy with some of the game design choices in KQ7, but that she felt like it was time for the game to be guided by new people. I definitely agree that the game was likely less of a "Roberta" game than the others, even if she did end up becoming more involved in its development than originally planned.

Does anyone else get the impression that Lorelei Shannon is bitter today about her Sierra experience? At times she has seemed very terse when talking about her work on KQ7. But perhaps I am reading something into it that isn't there.

[MtnPeak]

Yeah. In the end, who really gives a fuck?


Bt
Why do you guys stick around here if:

A) You're "over" King's Quest and don't want anyone to ever make another KQ game?

B) You don't even like people discussing the old games, and have the attitude to "who gives a fuck?" about discussion of the old games.


Agreed. I've also wondered why some people are here mainly for the purpose of telling us all how little they care about discussing KQ-related topics.

Not a fan their stick-in-the-mud, wet blanket behavior, and I think it's good to call it out. Hopefully they try to be less of a wet blanket presence in the future.

[corruptbiggins]

Agreed. I've also wondered why some people are here mainly for the purpose of telling us all how little they care about discussing KQ-related topics.

Probably 'cos they're hoping that Telltale have cancelled production of their Kings Quest game so they can say 'nyah nyah told you so' when that is confirmed. Seems like that's the only thing that'll give them any joy.

[Anakin Skywalker]

He's more right than you're willing to admit, though the presence of hyperbole is not exaggerated (no pun intended).

No, actually, he really isn't. From all I have read and researched over many years, all things indicate to me that Roberta was responsible for KQ's 1-5 as the lead designer and director. They are HER games.

Even Scott Murphy, I believe it was, praised Roberta for being understanding as to how it was to have to pull a game out of your ass on demand, whereas the business type people like Ken were much less understanding of how stressful and how much pressure it was it is to just create a game on demand.

Admittedly, one thing Sierra was guilty of, even in the early days, was giving more PR and publicity and likely higher budgets to the KQ games, and probably giving Roberta more creative free reign than the other designers got. But this is understandable for several reasons, one being that KQ was Sierra's flagship series and probably their biggest selling adventure game series, and secondly that this was a series designed by the Bosses' wife.

From KQ6 onward is where it gets murky, as she herself admitted she felt she had used up her good ideas with KQ5 and was exhausted and didn't want to be pigeonholed into making KQ games forever, and wanted to hand the series over to other people to tinker with. In fact she went so far as just wanting to be nothing more than a creative consultant on KQ6...and being on the record with this. If nothing else, I credit Roberta as being a very honest and open person. Her husband, not so much....

How responsible was Roberta for KQ6, KQ7 and KQ8, truly? We'll never know for sure, but I think it is pretty clear that those three games are both very different from the first five and also have credited input from other Sierra designers.

I believe Lamb feels that Roberta contributed little or nothing based on Josh's comments about Sierra's "Star System", which had an influence on Sierra's marketing of mid '90s games like Freddie Pharkas and SQ5, but I don't feel that that system came into play until around the same time as the move to Bellevue, as the "Suits" and a more business oriented vibe began influencing the company.

And I feel that the 'Star System' was more a marketing, promotional thing than any cover up thing. The Star System wasn't a thing where "Jane Jensen creates a KQ game and Roberta gets all the credit for it", it was more a marketing thing, as in "Roberta Williams' King's Quest VII" when in actuality her level of involvement in that game is questionable.

Even on games where the Star System comes into play, the right people are still given credit in the games themselves, just not in the marketing. Scott Murphy was given credit in Sierra's marketing and promotional materials for SQ6, but in the game credits itself, both he and Josh share the design credit.

Read any interview with any Sierra designer; From around 1993/1994 onward, there was a much more business-like, bottom line oriented approach to all the series and to the company itself, and many executive bureaucrat types became ever more influential in the company, and I believe that the "Star System" really began around this point. By 1994, especially with the move to Bellevue (which everyone has said changed Sierra totally), Roberta Williams was more than just a designer; She was a brand. In 1988, I don't think the "name" mattered. But in 1994, due to the way Sierra had promoted it's designers as being 'celebrities' of a sort, you couldn't have a KQ game without Roberta's name being marketed on the product.

In 1990, it was pretty different. I think Josh himself has stated that when he came on board, in that year, it was still the same sort of carefree, sort of fun mindset that the company had been known for, but he came in as that era was beginning to end.

I'd really like to discuss this further. I've stated my position and given, in detail, why I feel that KQ1-KQ5 are Roberta games, that she led the design and writing and whatnot and was basically the leading creative force on those games. From KQ6 to KQ8, she was probably given more credit than she was due.

But Lamb's position seems to be that outside of KQ1, she had very little to do with the KQ series creatively speaking. If he could expand on why he thinks so, without resorting to acting in a troll-like manner, this could be an interesting discussion.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Does anyone else get the impression that Lorelei Shannon is bitter today about her Sierra experience? At times she has seemed very terse when talking about her work on KQ7. But perhaps I am reading something into it that isn't there.

What happened was, Phantasmagoria 2 was given to Lorelei Shannon to design. When it didn't sell as well as the first Phantasmagoria did, Ken and others were quick to blame Shannon--even in interviews long after it came out--as the reason it didn't sell. She was sort of made into a scape coat for that game's failure. Which can make anyone understandably bitter.

[MusicallyInspired]

Guys, come on. We're not bad guys. We're not trolls. We're not raining on your parades. We share the same hopes that you do mostly. We're content to let KQ lie and that's about the only difference here when all is said and done and everything examined underneath the surface. If a new King's Quest was made and it was made well by all our standards, we'd all love it as much as you. We're just not pining for it like you are. Seriously, that's the only difference between us, that little detail. We're ok with things staying the way they are and we actually believe this is a more healthy way to look at it. We don't believe it's a cardinal sin to think otherwise, like you seem to be condemning us for. You're painting us as these evil dictators who want to taint everybody's opinion with their own colours instead of encouraging free thought and free speech. Say whatever you want, for goodness' sake. Believe whatever you want. All we have been doing was trying to explain why it might not be a great idea and why it might possibly not happen. We only do so based on our own experiences and the way things like this have factually and historically played out in the past. Yes, Lamb likes to poke fun at people but that's just who he is and he doesn't truly mean to offend or demean anybody.

Yet despite these things you seem to think you have to "fight the man" or "beat the system" by being a martyr for the cause or something and crying out against us like we're the Sheriff of Nottingham and Prince John himself. Fight whatever cause you wish to, don't call us the enemy. We're not trying to STOP you and quiet your voices out of existence. We're just trying to bring you down to earth a little bit by considering the facts of the gaming industry right now. Since that isn't every going to happen and you won't listen to reason of any kind (or even thought out and pertinent ideas and examples) and instead proceed to blame us for being evil and wanting to destroy everybody's hopes and dreams, you have turned into the troll here. I'm sick and tired of being labeled like that without being taken seriously and without calm intelligent consideration. It's clear nobody wants intelligent conversation or opposing ideas of any kind here other than your own (who's the dictator here?). So have your own little club where you can believe that a new and great King's Quest game is beyond the shadow of a doubt coming down the line (eventually, however long it takes), that ActiVision isn't in the gaming business for money and wants more than anything to keep good classic franchises alive (adventures most of all) by ignoring the largest demographic they've been targeting over the last decade and a half, fairies are real, pigs can fly, and unicorns not only exist but are a source of power for lord Voldemort.

I'm done. It's clear nobody is welcome here except those who share your opinions on King's Quest. Anybody else is a mindless troll.

[Chyron8472]

I'm done. It's clear nobody is welcome here except those who share your opinions on King's Quest. Anybody else is a mindless troll.

It's not about that at all. It's about wanting to have friendly conversation about King's Quest. It's about how any conversation about the possibility of a future King's Quest game, on the forums for said game, is shot down by people whom it would seem are really not interested in King's Quest anymore.

Many conversations have been talked about at length, so people gripe when someone brings them up again, whether they be someone like Anakin who is trying desperately to foster any conversation, or else like MtnPeak, who is new to the discussion and wants to join in on what he missed.

On the other hand, conversations about new material are also shot down because people also gripe about how KQ is dead and should be left to rot in peace.


This isn't about objecting to opposing opinion. This is about the fanbase trying to connect; and how people who were once fans, yet are now not, are lingering, in a forum for a game they don't care about, to seemingly only vent their bitterness about it.


Suffice it to say that this is about the fact that one wonders why someone, who has nothing better to do than tell people to shut the fuck up about KQ already, would bother hanging around here at all instead of on the forums for a game they do care about.

[MtnPeak]

I agree with chyron. I enjoy reading the comments and opinions of other KQ fans. I am open to all kinds of differing viewpoints. What can annoy me, however, is a repeated expression of a blasé or indifferent attitude.

Are you eagerly awaiting Telltale's KQ, or are you a KQ fan who regards TTG as the enemy of true adventure gaming? Either way, speak your mind, have at it; I enjoy and appreciate your input. But to come on a KQ forum and, essentially, declare that you couldn't care less what happens to KQ just rubs me the wrong way.

[Lambonius]

This has to be the most fun I've had on a KQ related forum in weeks.

[Anakin Skywalker]

This has to be the most fun I've had on a KQ related forum in weeks.

Could you respond to my post, and explain in detail why you feel Roberta only deserves credit for KQ1?

[Anakin Skywalker]

it's not about that at all. It's about wanting to have friendly conversation about king's quest. It's about how any conversation about the possibility of a future king's quest game, on the forums for said game, is shot down by people whom it would seem are really not interested in king's quest anymore.

Many conversations have been talked about at length, so people gripe when someone brings them up again, whether they be someone like anakin who is trying desperately to foster any conversation, or else like mtnpeak, who is new to the discussion and wants to join in on what he missed.

On the other hand, conversations about new material are also shot down because people also gripe about how kq is dead and should be left to rot in peace.


This isn't about objecting to opposing opinion. This is about the fanbase trying to connect; and how people who were once fans, yet are now not, are lingering, in a forum for a game they don't care about, to seemingly only vent their bitterness about it.


Suffice it to say that this is about the fact that one wonders why someone, who has nothing better to do than tell people to shut the fuck up about kq already, would bother hanging around here at all instead of on the forums for a game they do care about.

+100

[Lambonius]

Could you respond to my post, and explain in detail why you feel Roberta only deserves credit for KQ1?

I think that the Star System to which you refer is proof enough that you can't trust officially sanctioned interviews or publications, because EVERYTHING that Sierra put out was filtered through the lens of marketing. The problem with your unflagging faith in Roberta is that it's entirely based on those types of sources, which all need to be at least partially considered as marketing spin.

[Anakin Skywalker]

I think that the Star System to which you refer is proof enough that you can't trust officially sanctioned interviews or publications, because EVERYTHING that Sierra put out was filtered through the lens of marketing. The problem with your unflagging faith in Roberta is that it's entirely based on those types of sources, which all need to be at least partially considered as marketing spin.

I don't put my faith in those sources. I look at things like the booklet credits or ingame credits--Those are usually where the truth lies. And I look into a game's development history and all available other sources.

Like I said in my post, the Star System was mainly a promotional and marketing thing. It didn't extend to someone not getting in game or booklet credit for their work or any sort of cover up.

Like SQ6. Sierra touted it in marketing stuff as a Scott solo game after Josh quit Sierra, but the booklet and ingame themselves credits reflect the truth and give both Scott and Josh credit for designing the game, which was the truth.

I just feel that on every game until VI, Roberta's involvement was exactly as described in the ingame or booklet credits--She led those games creatively as the designer and director and writer. From VI onward, her level of influence is unclear, especially with KQ7.

That's where my faith in her comes from--the stuff she's credited with not in InterAction or wherever, but in the games themselves. I think there is a clear direction and a clear writing style and whatnot that can be seen from 1-5. A general way the games are built and written, and I feel those games are the handiwork of Roberta.

After VI that changes. VII, for example, probably had Roberta's direction in basic design ideas and characters and art direction and story ideas, but the actual final product was written by Lorelei Shannon as credited in the game. VIII is more Roberta's original ideas for and spearheading of the game getting railroaded by a bunch of other people's ideas and many other factors.

[BagginsKQ]

More importantly if you can, search up a former employee's internet pages, sometimes they include resumes. There is also information to be had on such sites as linked-in where the former sierra employees have put up their credentials, and what they did on each game. Sometimes get some good date information too.