Episodic games? No, thank you

[JPSelter]

The last months show a sad development in games industry: Episodic games. Why is this happening? Are developers not able to finish their games? Is the market pressure too high? I´m playing Half Life 2: Episode One right now and I don´t like this concept at all. It´s boring to know that the game will end in 3 hours, only to give you a cliffhanger that is more than unsatisfying. So why is Telltale Games making the same mistake? I have read somewhere on this forums "2 hours of gameplay per episode"? If this is the case I won´t buy this game. I don´t see any sense to torture my gaming experience over many months to see the end credits. That doesn´t make sense.

Why do I hate this idea? The main reason is inconsistency: What happens if the main characters voice actor passes away and we have to hear Sam or Max with a different actor. What if they change the overall game style? What if Episode 1 doesn´t sell well and they cancel all other episodes? What if it sells so well that they stretch the game from 3 episodes to 10?

I´d rather had a full game, a full piece of art and not just a puzzle where I get the pieces after months of waiting. I love Sam & Max and I´m waiting badly for years to see a Part 2, but, Telltale, if you really stick to this idea I will have to say "without me".

This is just my unimportant opinion but many other gamers are feeling the same. I have read many other discussions in other forums about this topic so you should take this thread serious.

[Junkface]

I think Sam & Max are very well suited to the episodic approach. Being police, each episode can equal one case. It's a very similar approach to the comics in the sense of short, self-contained adventures. It also allows for wider variety and more experimentation, as episodes can be based on premises that perhaps wouldn't sustain a full length game and there's less at stake if something doesn't work in a particular episode, as opposed to a full, 2 year's worth of work game. Sam & Max are known for their highly bizarre escapades and locales; episodic gaming really facilitates this approach. I find myself very excited by the episodic style of games, even if I wouldn't want them to the exclusion of full length games.

[JPSelter]

One case per episode? What does ttg say how long you will be playing one episode? It took me nearly (I have forgotten) 20 hours to play S&M1 for the first time, how will you add the depth into a 2-3 hours episode?

[Linque]

I'm curious to see how the games play out. JPSelter, you can always wait for the whole season to come out and buy the whole package then.

[JPSelter]

I'm curious to see how the games play out. JPSelter, you can always wait for the whole season to come out and buy the whole package then.

That would be an option.

[xChri5x]

The last months show a sad development in games industry: Episodic games. Why is this happening? Are developers not able to finish their games? Is the market pressure too high? I´m playing Half Life 2: Episode One right now and I don´t like this concept at all. It´s boring to know that the game will end in 3 hours, only to give you a cliffhanger that is more than unsatisfying. So why is Telltale Games making the same mistake? I have read somewhere on this forums "2 hours of gameplay per episode"? If this is the case I won´t buy this game. I don´t see any sense to torture my gaming experience over many months to see the end credits. That doesn´t make sense.

Why do I hate this idea? The main reason is inconsistency: What happens if the main characters voice actor passes away and we have to hear Sam or Max with a different actor. What if they change the overall game style? What if Episode 1 doesn´t sell well and they cancel all other episodes? What if it sells so well that they stretch the game from 3 episodes to 10?

I´d rather had a full game, a full piece of art and not just a puzzle where I get the pieces after months of waiting. I love Sam & Max and I´m waiting badly for years to see a Part 2, but, Telltale, if you really stick to this idea I will have to say "without me".

This is just my unimportant opinion but many other gamers are feeling the same. I have read many other discussions in other forums about this topic so you should take this thread serious.

I bet you anything you'll still buy the first one. haha

[HieroHero]

the episodic model works for a small independant gaming company like telltale..they cant afford to work on a game for 2 years with no revenue coming in.. I'd rather have an episodic game over no game at all..

[Julius_Serpentine]

Everyone is familiar with episodic entertainment. It's part of the culture in various creative mediums. Nearly all of them. That's why, too me, it's really curious that there is such a reactionary thought process on the part of many gamers. At the end of the day, it's going to come down to execution.

The plan for the Sam and Max episodes seem fairly solid and should really accommodate the format well. Having a completely solved case within an episode, with an overarching story connecting them all together, seems like a good idea. The thing is it's a format we've all seem hundreds of times on television and, just as with a television show, it comes down to how well it's done. Some shows are good and some shows are not, but it really has nothing to do with the episodic format. It has to do with the skill and passion of those producing it. Just because episodes are a familiar structure in television or comics doesn't make it an invalid choice in another medium.

Also, you may want to reconsider your definition of art, which tends to be a fairly nebulous term these days anyway. Being episodic hardly takes away from a games ability to be art. More likely, a game can now consist of several pieces of art that come together to form a sum greater than its parts.

In any case, you can just buy the whole season once it’s completed if you want. Though really, I think this will be an option for those who are uncomfortable with something ever-so-slightly outside of their comfort zone. As a Sam and Max fan I think you are probably quite at ease with things outside of most people’s comfort zone. So just go ahead and give it a chance. These episodes at least promise to give a satisfying ending to each episode. While Valve makes amazing games, their endings have always been somewhat unsatisfying.

[Haggis]

Everyone is familiar with episodic entertainment. It's part of the culture in various creative mediums. Nearly all of them.
/:) Can you name a few examples, apart from television and comics? Most art forms aren't episodic... books can be, but then, each episode in a series of books is usually self-contained, and pretty long. The thing with these Sam & Max episodes is that they're so short. Game series have always been episodic, but the individual episodes have been much longer. I think the problem most people who oppose to this new episodic model have, is that the episodes are so short that they can't be properly explored/enjoyed/replayed. The fact that they are released closer together doesn't make up for that in my opinion, and doesn't really make things easier on the wallet either, if in any other game series the games are a few years apart. It's actually a bit pricier if you look at it that way. But of course, this is all just my opinion.

[Julius_Serpentine]

The number of mediums that use an episodic format regularly is irrelevant, though most have the capability (comics, television, books, and movies). The issue is if a game can provide a compelling experience within the context of shorter episodes. Honestly, I see no reason to think that they can’t.

The idea that a game can’t be properly explored, enjoyed or replayed because it’s shorter is ridiculous. A smaller game area encourages people to explore more deeply and it makes replaying a game far less daunting.

When discussing the forthcoming Sam and Max episodes some seem to be hung up on the “2 hours of gameplay” quote, which at this point means nothing besides providing a general estimate. What factors this estimate is based on are beyond our knowledge. Is that an estimate based on a playing through the game without digging deep into it like a more casual gamer might? Is that after finding every joke possible? On top of that, the game is not near completion yet. That estimate may change based on the actual finished product.

None of this takes into account the fact that mileage will vary between players. Some may get stuck on a puzzle and spend an hour and a half trying to figure it out, where others may solve that puzzle instantly.

On the subject of your wallet, the price per episode hasn’t been released yet. All we know is that it’ll be cheaper than the Bone episodes. With this in mind, if an episode is released every 3 months or so, you’d need to put aside less than one United States dollar a week to purchase an episode the day that it is released. I’m sure most of our wallets should be safe.

Outside of the calculations of Time Played versus Money Spent, I paid $40 for Full Throttle when it came out. I beat the game in less than a day and a half, if memory serves correctly, and I didn’t regret it one bit. It was an excellent game, if a bit short.

There are factors that go way beyond Time verses Money. If you enjoy the hell out a game and the price is reasonable than all this other stuff is just moot.

Just remember, an episode is just a way of delivery. The enjoyment and richness of the game experience is not dependent on the format.

[Haggis]

I guess my problem is that I can't help thinking that smaller episodes = smaller environments and less to explore. You can only put in so many items and characters. One of the charms of adventure games is, for me, that there are a lot of characters and things to interact with, and I hope that Telltale will remember that that's one of the fun things about adventure games. The Great Cow Race was a giant leap in the right direction, with quite a number of things to do at the fair, and a number of guys to talk to in the tavern. I don't necessarily mind shorter games if there is enough interactivity. For instance, Ankh was a pretty short game (and on the expensive side for such a short game), but there were a lot of people you could talk to, which made up for that quite a bit. So the bottom line is, I want to feel satisfied after playing the game. Oh, and the bottom line is also that I'm a complainer. :D

[IronCladChicken]

Can you name a few examples, apart from television and comics? Most art forms aren't episodic... books can be, but then, each episode in a series of books is usually self-contained, and pretty long.

Back in the eighteen hundreds, the most popular books were in episodic format - I think pretty much all of Dickens stuff was released on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. Thats why his books are so think and dense in one volume - They were written to be read in seperate chunks over the course of a year or so.

For movies - Most trilogies - Star Wars, LOTR, etc.. are all episodic, most TV programmes are, comics, etc.. pretty much every 'entertainment' product produces episodic versions.

It makes sense with video games (they can tighten the next chapter of the game depending on the feedback from the last release, smaller software houses can see revenue return much faster.

The thing with these Sam & Max episodes is that they're so short. Game series have always been episodic, but the individual episodes have been much longer. I think the problem most people who oppose to this new episodic model have, is that the episodes are so short that they can't be properly explored/enjoyed/replayed. The fact that they are released closer together doesn't make up for that in my opinion, and doesn't really make things easier on the wallet either, if in any other game series the games are a few years apart. It's actually a bit pricier if you look at it that way. But of course, this is all just my opinion.

For me I dont always have time to play an entire video game all the way through - with work, relastionships, house stuff, drinking, etc.. I only get a few hours a week free to play video games, which means even 'short' 10-15 hour games take sometime to work through (by which time I'm usually just playing the game to finish it and move onto the next thing)

the episodic contents means I can spend a weekend or two playing the game before completing the chapter - I'll finish the section which give the bonus of completing the title, and while I'm waiting I can play alternate episodic games e.g. Half-life 2(3), Sin, etc..

I guess the point is, for my lifestyle espiodic content works well, I have no problem spending 12 dollars on a game that lasts 2-3 hours (same price as a movie ticked for longer entertainment).

[mikdog]

NO! NO! NO! Down with EPISODIC GAMING! VILE! VILE! VILE!

This uncertain ground makes me fearful.

[Haggis]

I guess the point is, for my lifestyle espiodic content works well, I have no problem spending 12 dollars on a game that lasts 2-3 hours (same price as a movie ticked for longer entertainment).
Whoa. I would have a problem spending 12 bucks on a 2-3 hour game. And I don't think Telltale will make that mistake. They've already lowered the price for Bone, and that game is definitely longer than 2-3 hours.

See, if every game was that expensive, I think I'd just give up on gaming. There's no need to price a 2-3 hour game at over 10 dollars. There might be a need to do this for movie tickets, but I don't care, since I'd rather use Air Miles for movie tickets - it's not worth the money when I can buy a DVD of the movie for a little bit more and watch it whenever I want.

And to put this all into context: Oblivion can easily give you more than 100 hours of gameplay for 50 bucks. The plug-ins are about 2 bucks each, and provide you with about an hour of extra gameplay, and potentially even a lot more. Strategy games like Civilization can last you hundreds of hours, also for about 50 dollars. So I see no reason why I should pay more than 10 bucks for a 2-3 hour game. I hope you see where I'm coming from.

[HieroHero]

If you answered the telltale survey it looked like a 2-3 hour game might cost you 5-6 dollars

[Linque]

For me I dont always have time to play an entire video game all the way through - with work, relastionships, house stuff, drinking, etc.. I only get a few hours a week free to play video games, which means even 'short' 10-15 hour games take sometime to work through (by which time I'm usually just playing the game to finish it and move onto the next thing)

I have got the same issue with some games, too. There are plenty of games of which I've completed about 80% and then just stopped playing. I also reviewed games for a couple of years which essentially raised the bar for games to be interesting at all.

It's just that too short is always too short. Though I'm beginning to be optimistic about the episodic system. We'll see.

[Haggis]

If you answered the telltale survey it looked like a 2-3 hour game might cost you 5-6 dollars
Which is a reasonable price in my book. 5 bucks would be ideal.

[Julius_Serpentine]

So the bottom line is, I want to feel satisfied after playing the game.

I'm pretty sure this is everyone's bottom line.

[Emily]

Back in the eighteen hundreds, the most popular books were in episodic format - I think pretty much all of Dickens stuff was released on a monthly/bi-monthly basis. Thats why his books are so think and dense in one volume - They were written to be read in seperate chunks over the course of a year or so.

And Dickens was paid by the word, which is why his writing is so verbose! :))

Shacknews has a feature about episodic gaming here (http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/060806_valve_ep1_1.x) that may be of interest to some of you. It talks mostly about Valve and their reason for doing Half-Life in episodes. I found this to be particularly interesting:

"There's a lot of depressing evidence out there indicating that not very many players are finishing out games," admitted Walker. "As a creator, you want people to see all the cool stuff you've made." This is something that plagues video games as an entertainment form perhaps more than either the players or the developers would usually like to admit.

I can relate - I'm more likely to start a game and NOT finish it than play it all the way through to the end. I just uninstalled a bunch of games after resigning myself to the fact that I'd never go back to them. I just don't have huge chunks of time to dedicate to playing a game all the way through, and a problem with long adventure games is that when you take a break from them, you're liable to forget what's going on in the story.

[Haggis]

But... but but but... I do finish my games! :((

[Julius_Serpentine]

But... but but but... I do finish my games! :((

It seems then that you must suffer for society’s crime!

[artwking]

It talks mostly about Valve and their reason for doing Half-Life in episodes. I found this to be particularly interesting:

"There's a lot of depressing evidence out there indicating that not very many players are finishing out games," admitted Walker. "As a creator, you want people to see all the cool stuff you've made." This is something that plagues video games as an entertainment form perhaps more than either the players or the developers would usually like to admit.

I can relate - I'm more likely to start a game and NOT finish it than play it all the way through to the end. I just uninstalled a bunch of games after resigning myself to the fact that I'd never go back to them. I just don't have huge chunks of time to dedicate to playing a game all the way through, and a problem with long adventure games is that when you take a break from them, you're liable to forget what's going on in the story.

I almost never have a problem finishing an adventure game (although I gave up on Syberia -- too boring and slow for me). FPS games however, are always giving me trouble. Usually I just play a few levels and get weary of the whole thing and delete it from the drive, mostly to never be tried again. I've installed and deleted Halo three or four times now and only played a couple hours of it. I finally managed to finish Call of Duty and it's expansion pack after a few installs, but I think I was all crazy excited about shooting Nazi's once I got started into that one. A rare exception. I think Valve/Steam may have the solution for my FPS gaming needs here. Small chunks at a time. Oh, and Telltale, too, of course. But I almost never complain about an adventure game being too long. ;)

[HieroHero]

I'm another one who does take a long time to finish games.. I just dont have the time..and I feel guilty playing video games when I should be doin somethin else.. It took me a few months to finish out from boneville and I just finished the great cow race a couple of weeks ago.. :) As for longer games..It could take me over a year to finish em..

[jp-30]

Looking at my shelf - Beyond Good & Evil, unfinished. Grim Fandango, Unfinished. Dark Forces, Unfinished. The Longest Journey, Unfinished. KOTOR, unfinished. Mafia, unfinished. The Dig, unfinished. The Movies, played for about a week, since untouched. Psychonauts, not even started.

Out from Boneville - finished.
The Great Cow Race - finished.

It's not that I don't want to finish them, it's just with 3 kids, a business to run and other things going on in my life it's hard to get more than a few hours a week for gaming - and I kind of forget what's going on or what objects I have or what quest I'm on in the longer games, so tend to find it more appealing to try some other game rather than attempt to pick up where I left off on older ones.

So, like many others who have less free time as I did in the Adventure heydey (which was when I was a student), short games actually suit me way more than longer ones, and I'm betting the same holds true for a lot of 30-40 (??) year olds who grew up on Monkey Island, DOTT & the Sierra games in the early-mid 90s.

The challenge for Telltale is reaching "us", I guess.

[artwking]

The challenge for Telltale is reaching "us", I guess.
They'll have to advertise on TV during "Law & Order" re-runs. :D

[HieroHero]

The challenge for Telltale is reaching "us", I guess.

reaching the million people who bought and enjoyed hit the road..and are now older and probably not buying video games anymore..is a good challenge for telltale

[Emily]

The challenge for Telltale is reaching "us", I guess.
They'll have to advertise on TV during "Law & Order" re-runs. :D

You watch those too? :))

[Mesden]

That's what you think..

Look at 24, one case takes 24 Hours.

[HieroHero]

That's what you think..

Look at 24, one case takes 24 Hours.

but the story continues..these episodes of sam and max are self contained

[IronCladChicken]

Whoa. I would have a problem spending 12 bucks on a 2-3 hour game. And I don't think Telltale will make that mistake. They've already lowered the price for Bone, and that game is definitely longer than 2-3 hours.


I completed the orignal Bone episode in 2-3 hours - which I did think was a little short (I've spent more time playing some game demos), but it was fun, so I bought the next chapter - It may just be because of the echange rate ($12 = £6 = 2pints)

And to put this all into context: Oblivion can easily give you more than 100 hours of gameplay for 50 bucks. The plug-ins are about 2 bucks each, and provide you with about an hour of extra gameplay, and potentially even a lot more. Strategy games like Civilization can last you hundreds of hours, also for about 50 dollars. So I see no reason why I should pay more than 10 bucks for a 2-3 hour game. I hope you see where I'm coming from.

See, I reckon that's a bit misleading - both Oblivion & Civ are well known for being HUGE games - the vast majority of titles these days tend to be designed with a 10-15 hour play time (costing $59.99 for the average console title, $49.99 for PC) - Quake4, Max Payne, Call of Duty 2, Black and White 2, etc...

Personally, I'd rather go for quality than quantity - but at the end of the day, everyone is looking for something different from their gaming experience.

[IronCladChicken]

Btw, Grand Master Yak good call with the Mercenary (Escape from Targ?) pic - That was the coolest game.

[Haggis]

See, I reckon that's a bit misleading - both Oblivion & Civ are well known for being HUGE games - the vast majority of titles these days tend to be designed with a 10-15 hour play time (costing $59.99 for the average console title, $49.99 for PC) - Quake4, Max Payne, Call of Duty 2, Black and White 2, etc...

Personally, I'd rather go for quality than quantity - but at the end of the day, everyone is looking for something different from their gaming experience.
Yeah, everyone is looking for something different... I guess I'm just looking for quality first and foremost, but I also want a bit of quantity, otherwise I don't feel like I'm getting the most bang out of my buck. Much in the same way that I expect a movie to be about two hours at least, I expect a game that costs me 50 bucks to last me longer than 15 hours. These games don't have to be huge, but at least don't make me feel I'm wasting my money.

[artwking]

Nobody wants to play a 100-hour adventure game. Nobody. It would suck beyond all that you could ever imagine.

[IronCladChicken]

Yeah, everyone is looking for something different... I guess I'm just looking for quality first and foremost,

Yeah, sorry about that man - I didn’t mean to suggest you preferred quantity over quality, just that I'd prefer a shorter game where the developers spent time thinking more about each aspect, than a longer game where you spend a lot of time back tracking, pixel hunting, repeating the same type of task over and over, etc...

but I also want a bit of quantity, otherwise I don't feel like I'm getting the most bang out of my buck. Much in the same way that I expect a movie to be about two hours at least, I expect a game that costs me 50 bucks to last me longer than 15 hours. These games don't have to be huge, but at least don't make me feel I'm wasting my money.

Sure, I know what you're saying - (not that I think you're wrong) but I reckon that’s the beauty of episodic games; after you've played a chapter/episode you can come onto the forums, chat with the guys who are developing the game and tell them what you like and disliked about the whole thing (which possibly is why there are no mini-games in the second Bone release?)

[mikdog]

I'm looking for good backgrounds, an excellent intro, and a weasel on a stick.

[jp-30]

Btw, Grand Master Yak good call with the Mercenary (Escape from Targ?) pic - That was the coolest game.

You can call me JP if you like. ;)

And yeah, Mercenary was a great game. First 3D 'adventure' I played (On my old Commodore Plus/4). You know there have been PC Remakes of Mercenary, Damocles and Mercenary III (http://membres.lycos.fr/vesta/merce.htm). The beta release is available now.

[IronCladChicken]

You can call me JP if you like. ;)

lol.. sorry man - I'm just not that bright [:">]

And yeah, Mercenary was a great game. First 3D 'adventure' I played (On my old Commodore Plus/4). You know there have been PC Remakes of Mercenary, Damocles and Mercenary III (http://membres.lycos.fr/vesta/merce.htm). The beta release is available now.

Good stuff, thanks - Definitly worth a play! :D

[Pvt._Public]

I'm hearing so much about how wonderful Oblivion is but fail to see what's so exciting for everyone all over the internet to compare it to everything else. I'm personally finding the game quite dull. An enormous game area is one thing, having stuff to do and not just acres and acres of pop-up grass with the occasional rat or ruins filled with bandits or dead rats thrown in is fairly important though. I intend to trade-in my copy for Final Fanasty IX which a local store has apparently found a supplier for. I've suddenly realised lately that I really, really enjoy playing my old PS1. Final Fantasy VII is definitely one of my favourite games ever.

[IronCladChicken]

I'm hearing so much about how wonderful Oblivion is but fail to see what's so exciting for everyone all over the internet to compare it to everything else. I'm personally finding the game quite dull. An enormous game area is one thing, having stuff to do and not just acres and acres of pop-up grass with the occasional rat or ruins filled with bandits or dead rats thrown in is fairly important though. I intend to trade-in my copy for Final Fanasty IX which a local store has apparently found a supplier for. I've suddenly realised lately that I really, really enjoy playing my old PS1. Final Fantasy VII is definitely one of my favourite games ever.

I guess it all comes down to personal taste - personally, I'm from the other end of the Spectrum - I was a HUGE Ultima fan during the eighties (and of open ended RPG's since including Oblivion), but could never get into the Final Fantasy series - In the same way that Final Fantasy hits the right buttons with you, it hit all the wrong ones for me


Then again I could never get into Baulders Gate (though a big fan of Torment) or Diablo either) :)

[Linque]

I guess it all comes down to personal taste - personally, I'm from the other end of the Spectrum - I was a HUGE Ultima fan during the eighties (and of open ended RPG's since including Oblivion), but could never get into the Final Fantasy series - In the same way that Final Fantasy hits the right buttons with you, it hit all the wrong ones for me


Then again I could never get into Baulders Gate (though a big fan of Torment) or Diablo either) :)

I am a huge Ultima fan but don't care for Oblivion. the Ultima series was much more solid than the Elder Scrolls series. Oblivion allows you to do too much without being penalized and wandering around doing sidequests messes up the gameplay in the main storyline pretty bad with the flexible difficulty level.

[Haggis]

I'm not a big RPG fan or anything... which is why I like Oblivion. Oblivion is more like an action game with RPG elements. But there is just so much to do, and I'm not talking about dungeon-crawling alone, because I agree, that gets old very fast. But there's a lot of cool quests, and the whole world just feels very immersive to me.

Anyway, I'm not trying to compare Oblivion to Sam & Max per se, because they're obviously totally different games. I just want a nice, immersive game, if possible.

[pennstat]

I am a huge Ultima fan but don't care for Oblivion. the Ultima series was much more solid than the Elder Scrolls series.
I trust that you're not including Ultima 8: The Arcade Game or Ultima 9: The Bug Ridden, Pathetic Piece of S**t That EA Released A Year Too Early Then Never Fixed in your statement. Forget Oblivion. I mean, for crying out loud -- Yahtzee is more solid than those two.
:D

[IronCladChicken]

I trust that you're not including Ultima 8: The Arcade Game or Ultima 9: The Bug Ridden, Pathetic Piece of S**t That EA Released A Year Too Early Then Never Fixed in your statement. Forget Oblivion. I mean, for crying out loud -- Yahtzee is more solid than those two.
:D

For my money Ultima’s 4-7 & the underworld games (Though Looking Glass not Origin, they were amazing titles) were more than enough for me to class Ultima it as a historic series... A lot of the additions made in Oblivion (over Morrowind) were standard in the Ultima series (the open ended gameplay was just as advanced, using ingredients to make spells, people getting up in the morning, going to work, eating meals, going to sleep at night, etc...) - Will still enough space to allow party play, and tight storyline, personalised skill development, huge play area, history (including books and stories in game), etc..

Though I should probably shut-up at this point, since this is Tell-Tales web forum, not EA's :D

[pennstat]

Though I should probably shut-up at this point, since this is Tell-Tales web forum, not EA's :D
Not necessarily. If TTG ever decides to try their hand in the fantasy realm, they should know beforehand what type of RPGs their customers like and dislike.

[Linque]

I trust that you're not including Ultima 8: The Arcade Game or Ultima 9: The Bug Ridden, Pathetic Piece of S**t That EA Released A Year Too Early Then Never Fixed in your statement. Forget Oblivion. I mean, for crying out loud -- Yahtzee is more solid than those two.
:D

Yes, naturally I'm talking about the 'real' Ultima games, before Pagan.

[laffer]

The main concern I have with episodic gaming is that the areas to explore become much smaller.
I really love big adventure games like Monkey Island 2 which has a big world to explore at your own leisure.. and if there's one puzzle you're hopelessly stuck on, you can try to do somthing else while keeping that puzzle in the back of your head.
This also adds a lot of depth to the games which I feel is lacking in episodic adventure games.

[laffer]

Nobody wants to play a 100-hour adventure game. Nobody. It would suck beyond all that you could ever imagine.
I've played many games for longer than that.

[pennstat]

I've played many games for longer than that.
Agreed. I've put in a ton of hours just in Ultima VI, far more than 100 hours. I never got bored with it because there was so much to see and do, a lot of which was irrelevant to the main plot of the story.

[errorage]

In sarcastic voice:

"Great... more downloading from torrents..."

:D

Matt <Not a pirate... but from slovenia :D >

[artwking]

Nobody wants to play a 100-hour adventure game. Nobody. It would suck beyond all that you could ever imagine.
I've played many games for longer than that.
RPG's are one thing. It's different with adventure games. After a certain point it just becomes "busy work" that we're being made to do just to maybe see some story.

[errorage]

Nobody wants to play a 100-hour adventure game. Nobody. It would suck beyond all that you could ever imagine.
I've played many games for longer than that.
RPG's are one thing. It's different with adventure games. After a certain point it just becomes "busy work" that we're being made to do just to maybe see some story.

Once upon a time, when internet was a luxury few could afford, a game developing company released a game whitch was so complex, it was "almost" impossible to solve without a walkthrough. That game, was called... Gabriel Knight: *opens drawer to get the rest of the title* argh where is it?! anyway... GK 3... the 1st... and only... GK in 3D... THAT GAME IS SO HARD TO FIGGURE OUT!!! and the solution is 120 pages long!!!!i'll sue the writer of it to pay my wlack printer ink bill... jk...

Matt

[artwking]

I haven't played Gabriel Knight 3: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned yet. I've been saving it, along with a bunch of others like the Broken Swords and Simon the Sorcerers for a rainy day (or a freak monsoon season ;) ). I'd love to be proven wrong about a 100 hour adventure game that has enough actual content to sustain it, but I don't think that being "stuck" counts. I hate being stuck. I never let myself be stuck for more than an hour anymore. There's not enough time in the world and I've got too many games to play.

[IronCladChicken]

Once upon a time, when internet was a luxury few could afford, a game developing company released a game whitch was so complex, it was "almost" impossible to solve without a walkthrough. That game, was called... Gabriel Knight: *opens drawer to get the rest of the title* argh where is it?! anyway... GK 3... the 1st... and only... GK in 3D... THAT GAME IS SO HARD TO FIGGURE OUT!!! and the solution is 120 pages long!!!!i'll sue the writer of it to pay my wlack printer ink bill... jk...

Matt

I found the first DiscWorld adventure pretty challenging (and when I finally did get to the end a bug stopped me from completing the game - gah!)

[errorage]

I haven't played Gabriel Knight 3: Blood of the Sacred, Blood of the Damned yet. I've been saving it, along with a bunch of others like the Broken Swords and Simon the Sorcerers for a rainy day (or a freak monsoon season ;) ). I'd love to be proven wrong about a 100 hour adventure game that has enough actual content to sustain it, but I don't think that being "stuck" counts. I hate being stuck. I never let myself be stuck for more than an hour anymore. There's not enough time in the world and I've got too many games to play.


It'll have to rain for 30 days and 30 nights then if you want to complete the game... i'm preety sure the game is ATLEAST 50 hours long with a WALKTHROUGH... as i said... the walkthrough is HUGE... the shortest usefull one i found is 49 MSWord pages long

[Jake]

I've played many games for longer than that.
Agreed. I've put in a ton of hours just in Ultima VI, far more than 100 hours. I never got bored with it because there was so much to see and do, a lot of which was irrelevant to the main plot of the story.

Any sort of combat or character leveling system is going to suddenly add dozens of hours to a game because they're repetitive (and therefore largely reusable from battle to battle or leveling quest to leveling quest).

In an adventure game, every puzzle or conversation in the game must be new and completely different from the puzzle or conversation immediately preceeding it.

What that means is that it takes a lot more work (a lot more writing, animating, puzzle design, level design, and voice recording) to make whatever game experience fills up, say, hour 15 of an adventure game than it would to fill hour 15 of a traditional computer RPG.

In an RPG or action game there's a lot of gameplay between the story bits, whereas in most traditional adventure games, the only gameplay is the story bits (I'm including puzzles here as story bits as well, because any adventure game worth its salt will largely have puzzles that serve the story and advance the story, not puzzles thrown in there as artificial gameplay roadblocks).

[Emily]

I'd love for someone to play GK3 with a walkthrough and a stopwatch. I really doubt it'd take 50 hours.

Of course, how much you enjoy playing a game is more important than the number of hours it takes. But I often see people exaggerating the length of older adventure games compared to new ones, and it makes me wonder how long those older games *really* are.

(And before anyone asks, yes I have played GK3. Twice.)

[Squinky]

Back in junior high, I had a friend who boasted that she could beat Day of the Tentacle in one hour, and that was considered to be an achievement. Now, when people can beat a game in one hour, they complain about it. My, times sure have changed...

[Diduz]

and it makes me wonder how long those older games *really* are.


The older ones were endless, meaning that often you simply didn't beat them and gave up (unless you had a walkthrough)! B-)

Times have changed. I reckon Loom and The Secret Of Monkey Island were among the first adventure games you could ACTUALLY beat without a walkthrough. At the time many gamers complained about them being too short/simple (yes, some EVEN complained about the first Monkey, believe it or not!). Yet that turnpoint allowed many boys and girls to approach this kind of product.
I am glad to live in the age of not-so-hardly beatable games. :D

[Emily]

Times have changed. I reckon Loom and The Secret Of Monkey Island were among the first adventure games you could ACTUALLY beat without a walkthrough.

My dad and I beat King's Quest 1, King's Quest 2, and Leisure Suit Larry 1 without access to a walkthrough or hint book. Took a lot longer than it would with hints, of course, which is where I think the perception that older games are so much longer than newer games comes from. I can probably finish any one of those games in about an hour today, but I already know what I have to do -- which is really the same as playing a game for the first time with easy access to hints or a walkthrough.

[Diduz]

My dad and I beat King's Quest 1, King's Quest 2, and Leisure Suit Larry 1 without access to a walkthrough or hint book.

Sure, but you had no problem at all when typing ENGLISH commands in the text-parser, remember that. ;)

[Emily]

Sure, but you had no problem at all when typing ENGLISH commands in the text-parser, remember that. ;)

I wouldn't say I had no problem with it.

"use pebbles with slingshot"
"shoot pebbles at giant"
"shoot giant with slingshot"
"use slingshot to kill giant"
etc.
etc.
etc.

:D

[pennstat]

I'm sorry, Emily. I can't understand your post.
?>

You have taken too long to respond.

You have been eaten by a grue.

:D

[questionthemajority]

I think Sam & Max are very well suited to the episodic approach. Being police, each episode can equal one case. It's a very similar approach to the comics in the sense of short, self-contained adventures. It also allows for wider variety and more experimentation, as episodes can be based on premises that perhaps wouldn't sustain a full length game and there's less at stake if something doesn't work in a particular episode, as opposed to a full, 2 year's worth of work game. Sam & Max are known for their highly bizarre escapades and locales; episodic gaming really facilitates this approach. I find myself very excited by the episodic style of games, even if I wouldn't want them to the exclusion of full length games.
My thoughts exactly. I'm looking forward to this as it will seem very much like a brand new interactive Sam & Max comic series!

[IronCladChicken]

hey! - No mocking text adventures!
They were cool! - made me the geek I am today!

[errorage]

Try this!! (http://www.homestarrunner.com/dman3.html)

haha! And sorry if it's illegal to link to other servers... :(

[IronCladChicken]

lol... good stuff! That was funny :)

My turn to get my account banned;
THE HITCHHIKER ADVENTURE GAME (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/game_nolan.shtml)

[Haggis]

Also, try [link removed].

[Emily]

IronCladChicken, I fixed your link. It had two https in there. :) It's hosted by the BBC, so I'm pretty sure it's legal! (Not sure about the Zork one but I'm okay with it unless someone says otherwise.)

This is not a text game, but last week I wasted a few hours with this BBC game: 7 Noble Kinsmen - A Shakespearean Murder Mystery (http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/shakespeare/game.shtml?ssorl=1151122480&ssols=13&ssoc=login). It has six acts and it appears that these came out episodically when it was first released (so it's even on topic!) Really fun little game. Of course, it was free, but I totally would have paid for it. :D

[Haggis]

(Not sure about the Zork one but I'm okay with it unless someone says otherwise.)
Oops, it seems like I did something illegal: "Activision briefly offered free downloads of Zork I as part of the promotion of Zork: Nemesis, and Zork II and Zork III as part of the promotion for Zork Grand Inquisitor, as well as a new adventure: Zork: The Undiscovered Underground. This led many to believe that the games had been released as freeware, even though the included license explicitly prohibited redistribution. Activision's legal department has recently stated that the promotion relating to those games has ended and that it is not legal to distribute the games or make them available for download." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zork#Later_compilations_and_current_availability

[Emily]

Yeah, that's what I thought. I'm going to remove your link, then.

But - this is legal! (http://www.msadams.com/index.htm)

[IronCladChicken]

IronCladChicken, I fixed your link. It had two https in there. :) It's hosted by the BBC, so I'm pretty sure it's legal!

Doh! - Thanks Emily!