No linearity, please...

[errorage]

I have noticed that both Bone games are really linear... all events go one after the other... now that's not the spirit of games previously designed and built by our great guys at telltale... i wish for the sam and max games to be like the hit the road one. A game that you can play for months because you don't know that a flask is usefull to fix a malfunctioning escelator... so despite me usually encouraging the story part of the game i wish it to be less story and more tricky puzzles.... and less help... (i don't like the help feature of the bone games...)

Thanks and i'm sure you'll make meny great games!!

Matt from Slovenia (the chicken like country east of italy)

[Tenka]

I strongly agree here..

The best thing about S&M: Hit the Road was its non-linear approach. Not just in the way it enhanced interactivity tenfold but also in the way that when you became stuck in the story or just felt like exploring you could find millions of easter eggs and hidden dialog by searching, looking at things and talking to people. I had played through the game over 20 times before I realised you could walk into "Bosco's Gun Shop" at the start of the game which rewarded me with a rather funny easter egg/hidden dialog which had no point in the game other than to be there waiting to be found. That .. more of that, make sure you have LOTS of that... delay it if you have to.

[Haggis]

You have to keep in mind that back then, it was a lot easier to put in these little extra sequences. The only thing you had to do was create art for an additional room, and script in some extra dialogue. Nowadays doing something like that would be a lot more work.

Also, yes, Hit the Road was a great game, but Telltale aren't making Hit the Road 2, but an entirely new series of games based on Sam & Max. It'll still be an adventure game, but it won't be a SCUMM game, so you really can't compare it to that.

[Tenka]

I dont really see how it makes a difference, according to the "most frequently asked questions" on the web site they state that using 3D graphics is easier than 2D. Because you only have to create a room or a model then stick in some physics rather than having to draw everything frame by frame.

And I cant see adding some more voices here and there being any harder than it was back then .. at the very least give us a bunch of bonus dialog to look for, thats what Sam & Max is all about after all - funny dialog.

This isnt about copying Hit the Road, its about what works better or worse. For Sam & Max I cant see the linear approach being at all favorable over the "interactive universe" approach, without the jokes and funny action relative to what you click on and look at it just isnt Sam & Max.

[Haggis]

Well, for me, Sam & Max is about the humour, not necessarily about the interactivity. Sure, interactivity is cool, but it is not inherent to Sam & Max, because it's a comic first and foremost. And as much as I'd love to have all those little nooks and crannies to explore, I just don't see it happening with 2-hour episodes. So I'll just see what Telltale throws at us, and as long as it has Sam & Max's trademark insane humour, you won't hear me complaining.

[Linque]

You have to keep in mind that back then, it was a lot easier to put in these little extra sequences. The only thing you had to do was create art for an additional room, and script in some extra dialogue. Nowadays doing something like that would be a lot more work.

Actually Tenka is right - according to the FAQ on this page it is in fact easier to do this nowdays. And I see nothing preventing Telltale to add this kind of content in the game. They haven't denied that would be extra easter-eggy situations which you could stumble upon.

If I'd have to put a wager in, I'd say that they are probably including a few of these in each episode. Wouldn't make sense not to.

[Haggis]

Sure, on the whole it may be easier to create an entire game in 3D than in 2D - however, if you have 50-something locations in a 2D game, adding 1 more for an easter egg isn't that hard. So appending extra stuff would in fact be harder in 3D, but that's just my gut feeling. I base this on the fact that 2D games have a lot of locations, whereas the Bone games didn't have as many. Or maybe that's just my imagination and someone will prove me utterly wrong, being the fool I am. :D

[Emily]

I base this on the fact that 2D games have a lot of locations, whereas the Bone games didn't have as many. Or maybe that's just my imagination and someone will prove me utterly wrong, being the fool I am. :D

Nope, sorry. The number of locations in the Bone games doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the game is in 3D instead of 2D. ;)

As for easter eggs, consider some of the added animations in The Great Cow Race, like when Fone Bone looks under the pot in Gran'ma's yard, or Phoney tries to straighten the picture in the tavern. These aren't exactly easter eggs, but they're along the same lines, and they're very easy to program into the game in 3D, using Telltale's engine.

[Haggis]

Thanks for proving me wrong, heh. *hides in his dark corner again*

[Hitman]

i also hate that linearity...
I want the new Sam & Max games somehow similar like Hit the Road... so i wan't that there are situations that can be very easy... but that can take u thinking and trying a whole day...

Hit The Road can be played till the end very fast if u know what u have to do... i don't like if u get an exact way ... so that u can't do something wrong.. or can't miss something...

In Hit The Road it often simply happened that u missed to do something... and run along everyplace u already where... and looked at everything again and again just to find out what u've missed... it should not be to easy to find the next thing you can do.

[jp-30]

I didn't find Cow Race linear. Yo ucould swap between characters and attempt the tasks in any order.

Given Sam & Max episodes will be smaller than Cow Race though, there's only so much 'non-linearity' that can be contained, surely.

For me, getting to do things in a non set order is WAY down my 'wishlist'. Story, humour, graphics, writing, puzzles, voicework all majorly outrank the ability to do things in any order.

[HieroHero]

I'm another one who would love the non-linear approach.. unfortunately I just don't see it happening.. You have to solve a case in a 2 hour game..how can that be done without forcing you to progress the story in a very direct path? :-/

[Linque]

For me, getting to do things in a non set order is WAY down my 'wishlist'.

But it is on your wishlist. It's on mine, too. :D


I agree though, non-linearity such as that in the Great 3:-O Race isn't really that important to me. That's a whole different beast than these extra things to do. This topic is discussed in the gameplay thread, too.

[DoubtedEdwardo]

I guess this could come under non-linearity...

A really cool thing about the original Sam and Max was the whole map idea, there wasn't just one big area you had to keep exploring until you got to move on to the next big area, there were lots of small areas you could keep coming back to. I think Telltale have already said there isn't going to be a map but it would be cool if there was the same idea of small areas you could go back to. If places turned up from past episodes that would be a great 'ooo I regognise that place' moment (Or even places from Hit the Road, bring back Snuckey's! :D )

[leon101]

Well, for me, Sam & Max is about the humour, not necessarily about the interactivity. Sure, interactivity is cool, but it is not inherent to Sam & Max, because it's a comic first and foremost. And as much as I'd love to have all those little nooks and crannies to explore, I just don't see it happening with 2-hour episodes. So I'll just see what Telltale throws at us, and as long as it has Sam & Max's trademark insane humour, you won't hear me complaining.

Ah yes I rather agree with that. I love the warning sticker on the box, about twisted humor, that was funny. The first thing I did was explore on hit and run (I do it on EVERY adventure game, you never know...) so I found out about going into bosco's store in the first 2-5 minutes of gameplay (excluding the intro and credits). Even if interactivity isn't a must, well, it must be there to be a game of the sorts :)) .

[Tenka]

As for easter eggs, consider some of the added animations in The Great Cow Race, like when Fone Bone looks under the pot in Gran'ma's yard, or Phoney tries to straighten the picture in the tavern. These aren't exactly easter eggs, but they're along the same lines, and they're very easy to program into the game in 3D, using Telltale's engine.

Thanks, the reassurance that its do-able and there will be "some" is pleasing to hear. I would like to somehow press you guys to jam as much in as possible but I guess I wont be raising my expectations so far. If you cant give us true non-linearity, jamming it with millions of cool additives will be the next best thing.

I havent played Great Cow Race yet.. I intend to after my Final Exams.

[CousinSven]

i wish it to be less story and more tricky puzzles....

I couldn't disagree with this more strongly. If the story is going to be sacrificed for the sake of non-linearity, then I might as well play an MMORPG. Story in adventure games is vital. If you want to tell a story in an interesting way, there has to be some form of linearity. A non linear game just allows you to solve all the puzzles in any order, at which it stops becoming a story and ends up simply being a collection of puzzles.

and less help... (i don't like the help feature of the bone games...)


This, however, I couldn't agree more with.

[jp-30]

Well why don't you two just turn the Help feature off in the Bone setup page?

I don't care for it either personally, so I turned it off. But no doubt many people find it extremely useful. And it has varying degrees of hints to really nudge you in the right direction before giving you any outright solutions.


I though it it was extremely well implemented. Though maybe in Sam & Max it should be Off by default, rather than On as in Bone.

[mikdog]

I want a story, otherwise I'm going to hate everything.

(Don't you love posts like these?)

[Linque]

I though it it was extremely well implemented. Though maybe in Sam & Max it should be Off by default, rather than On as in Bone.

That's a very good point. It should be turned Off by default. Otherwise weak minded people such as myself might resort to it if it's looming in the bottom right corner by default.

I'm not kidding, it really should be off by default and I think it would be a substantial change. It might sound silly, but not everyone changes the options at all from the default ones. If it would be turned off normally, there would be a higher treshold to use it and players would try harder to solve the puzzles by themselves, thus giving additional play time and more rewarding experiences.

[Emily]

Remember that Bone is intended for a slightly different audience... people who might not necessarily be familiar with adventure games. The tutorial is on by default, too, for the same reason. I personally find this annoying, and I turn it off the first chance I get. :D But in the case of the Bone games, we'd rather reach that audience right off the bat. It's not so hard for experienced adventure gamers to go into the options and turn them off. ;)

Interesting idea to change the defaults in Sam & Max, though. And for all I know, it might even be something the designers are already planning to do.

[leon101]

Oh, I didn't know you could turn off that tutorial, :)) . Stupid me.

[jp-30]

The tutorial is different to the hint sytem, and both can be turned off.

[Pvt._Public]

Judging from the fact that each of the games will be quite short and also due to the fact that this is a series, I assume there'll some degree of linearity. If you want to tell a story then you can't really just throw in a bunch of locations and say 'have fun'. I'm sure there'll be a lot of things to see and do but you'll also be guided towards specific places. It makes for a slightly less overwhelming experience as well. Like Dreamfall. Solve some puzzles, get told to go over somewhere else, walk through a tunnel, end up in a cave with no return. Shuttled from place to place. Actually, that would be the best way to do it. It allows you to get on with advancing the plot but allows you to explore. Simply break the locations up into smaller sets of locations where you can only access the ones needed at the time. Also eliminates that whole 'So I have a bent spanner. Where do I go now? Fish world? The carnival? The mystery spot? etc...?' factor.

[ciantic]

It is obvious that this is necessity. :)) Do the math:
(12 episodes or similar) each episode has it's own locations and each episode is own game. Next episode most likely won't include locations before, so therefore it will be linear, at least *more* linear than in games that are released as one.

You can't fix this, if you consider this as an problem, I've not yet made my mind is it problem or not. I need to see the final product first to make my judgment. People have tried to explain to me that it won't be straight forward but I just can't see how that is possible.

I'd just like to see how one can make non-linear game by splitting to (let's say 12) pieces the way that each piece is stand-alone game :-/

[Jake]

It is obvious that this is necessity. :)) Do the math:
(12 episodes or similar) each episode has it's own locations and each episode is own game. Next episode most likely won't include locations before, so therefore it will be linear, at least *more* linear than in games that are released as one.

You can't fix this, if you consider this as an problem, I've not yet made my mind is it problem or not. I need to see the final product first to make my judgment. People have tried to explain to me that it won't be straight forward but I just can't see how that is possible.

I'd just like to see how one can make non-linear game by splitting to (let's say 12) pieces the way that each piece is stand-alone game :-/

A great example: Day of the Tentacle takes place in its entirety in a house, and it's one of the least linear feeling adventure games I've ever played! It has none of, say, the globe-trotting epic travel of the Indiana Jones games or island uncovering of the MI games... (Day of the Tentacle hasn't even got a map!) but its lack of on-the-surface-epicness and close-quartered use of locations don't seem to hold it back in terms of nonlinearity or puzzle complexity.

[Haggis]

A great example: Day of the Tentacle takes place in its entirety in a house, and it's one of the least linear feeling adventure games I've ever played! It has none of, say, the globe-trotting epic travel of the Indiana Jones games or island uncovering of the MI games... (Day of the Tentacle hasn't even got a map!) but its lack of on-the-surface-epicness and close-quartered use of locations don't seem to hold it back in terms of nonlinearity or puzzle complexity.
But the thing that made Day of the Tentacle so complex (and fun!) is the fact that you had to switch between characters and really had to interact with them - not through speech, but through the Chron-O-Johns. So there'd better be something in this new Sam & Max game that'll make it more complex than just going from point A to B and back! ;)

[CousinSven]

Grim Fandango was going from point A to B and back, and that's one of the greatest adventures ever made, just like Day of the Tentacle. Both methods can work fantastically, if done right.

[ciantic]

A great example: Day of the Tentacle takes place in its entirety in a house, and it's one of the least linear feeling adventure games I've ever played! It has none of, say, the globe-trotting epic travel of the Indiana Jones games or island uncovering of the MI games... (Day of the Tentacle hasn't even got a map!) but its lack of on-the-surface-epicness and close-quartered use of locations don't seem to hold it back in terms of nonlinearity or puzzle complexity.

Now, first of all, I'm not even assuming that S&M2 will be even close to best adventure game of whole universe (DOTT). And still I think that the episodic way makes it more straight forward as every puzzle is limited to the episode itself.

In terms of DOTT this would mean that exploring would be cut off, and you could NOT play simultaneously different parts with each character in the game. So if we cut DOTT to twelve pieces (which btw is impossible) it would mean that each episode contains piece of some character exploring a little, now it would diminish the mood totally. Since DOTT includes several little puzzles that you can play almost anytime in the game which makes it so much more interesting. Important: So you can start doing other puzzle while doing other, now when we cut DOTT to twelve pieces that means each episode is own puzzle, now this disables the possibility doing these other puzzles in the side. As the next episode does NOT know what parts have you discovered of this "irrelevant" side puzzle.

In simple: episodic presentation makes impossible to create simultaneous puzzles. The scale of the locations is not the only problem.

[ciantic]

But the thing that made Day of the Tentacle so complex (and fun!) is the fact that you had to switch between characters and really had to interact with them - not through speech, but through the Chron-O-Johns. So there'd better be something in this new Sam & Max game that'll make it more complex than just going from point A to B and back! ;)

And this is impossible with episodic own game presentation. As the next episode has no idea what you have collected with each person.

[HieroHero]

Yeah I'm struggling to get my head around how much you can actually do in a game in 2 hours.. In 2 hours of say Grim Fandango i've checked out locations picked up a few items and maybe solved one puzzle.. how could you go through a storyline of an "episode" playing a game .. in this time?

DOTT had just 1 house..but it was 3 different time periods..3 characters.. ability to send items to each other..many verbs.. a heap of items to pick up and look at.. a lot of people to talk to.. that just extended the gameplay massively.. in 2 hours of dott i'd probably talked to a couple of people and looked at a few rooms.. hell it took me 40 mins just to figure out the thing with the clock haha

I think if the episodes carried on and included locations items from episode 1..it would just get better and better.. but 2 hour self contained episodes.. you can have a good story..you can have some funny stuff for sure..but can you actually have a good "adventure gaming" experience all tied up in 2 hours? [[-o<]

[mikdog]

I think, like, one game will be pushing people into a volcano with a car, another will be a chase on foot with guns, another will be like bungee jumping from a dude's nose.

Anyone want to bet on this? Place your bets now...

[ciantic]

I think, like, one game will be pushing people into a volcano with a car, another will be a chase on foot with guns, another will be like bungee jumping from a dude's nose.

Anyone want to bet on this? Place your bets now...

You are right, and see the problem? Right in front of you? How can one make it non linear this way? You can't choose, if there are multiple simultaneous puzzles, which one to do.

You can't go and unwrap the one clue if you are stuck with another.

You can't pick that useless piece of rope if that is actually useless in this episode. As the next does not remember did you pick it up or not.

[ciantic]

I think if the episodes carried on and included locations items from episode 1..it would just get better and better.. but 2 hour self contained episodes.. you can have a good story..you can have some funny stuff for sure..but can you actually have a good "adventure gaming" experience all tied up in 2 hours? [[-o<]

That is the point I've been trying to explain ever since I registered to this forum.

Each episode as its own game: Puzzles become more strict to the episode, nothing can refer to before happened. And puzzles can't unveil itself by time. As it does not make sense to make forced to pick that useless piece of wood, or any other if you don't need it for awhile.

You can imagine it this way too: You are stranded (referring to monkey island) to island each time next episode becomes, which means all the collected stuff becomes irrelevant OR each episode has it's own static given collectibles in pocket, which have been forced to pick up earlier.

Instead of one challenging chess game, you are playing twenty little chess games. (Notice that in one chess game the moves you make at the beginning means something, rather than in twenty little games, as each game is it's own)

All the problems of own-game-episodic presentation could be "fixed" with expanding episodic presentation.

Here is an diagram that shows exactly how episodic presentation affects the linearity of the adventure game:
(for those of you who does not have a such a strong image what does it mean)
http://koti.mbnet.fi/ciantic/telltalegames_small.png
("larger" version: http://koti.mbnet.fi/ciantic/telltalegames.png)

[jp-30]

What you propose (revisiting locations, retaining items etc. from earlier episodes) would mean that everybody must play episode 1 before playing episode 2 before playing episode 3 etc.

The way Telltale are doing things, the episodes can be played in any order (how's THAT for non linearity?) and do not all need to be played to get into the latest episode, like skipping an episode of your favourite TV series, or watching an episode recorded by a friend out-of-order with the rest of the season.

Which is contrary to the whole reasoning behind setting the episodes up as games that can be enjoyed (and marketed) as standalones.

And those of us who play them all will be rewarded by the overall story arc that is occurring co-currently throughout the episodes.

Additionally if you're desperate to revisit an old location, just fire up an old episode.

Remember Grim Fandango? 4 distinct time periods / locations. You could in fact have played each of them separately as standalone episodes.

So just consider Sam & Max episodes a little like Grim Fandango, except there's a wait between leaving one section (episode) and getting to another. Even the Monkey Island games had distinct chapters where new sections would open up and some older locations would become unvailable.

So this whole episodic thing has in essence been done before on some of the greatest adventure games ever made.

[Emily]

I think everyone needs to trust in the fact that we have seasoned game designers hashing out these very issues as we speak. ;)

No one's really done this before, so it makes sense for you guys to be unsure about how it'll turn out. But there are obviously a lot of preconceived ideas that people have about what an episodic game is, that no amount of explanation from Telltale beforehand is going to dispell. When they come out, the games will speak for themselves.

Until then, go play Bone! :))

[ciantic]

The way Telltale are doing things, the episodes can be played in any order (how's THAT for non linearity?) and do not all need to be played to get into the latest episode, like skipping an episode of your favourite TV series, or watching an episode recorded by a friend out-of-order with the rest of the season.


As far as i know, any order won't do. Only ascending order and skipping means you lose a little bit of the plot (in worst case scenario).

If you imagine that any order would do, then it would be even more linear. As they don't connect to each other in none ways.

You can't simply "fix this problem" by any method. It is mathematically impossible, only vivid telling can save the current method. Thats why I can't say if it will be bad or not. It is sure that since each episode is own game the linearity will increase no matter what, how much that will affect the mood is probably the question we should ask. And you can't answer to that until you have played the game.

[jp-30]

And how is any of this different to Grim Fandango, say, where you progressed from one year to the next, and couldn't backtrack to the previous year's locations?

[HieroHero]

The Grim Fandango example is a good one... Those could have been 4 years..4 different episodes.. but would each year be 2 hours of gameplay? I'd say it would be a lot longer than that.. and were the years self contained? the story continued on..so the grim fandango designers didnt have to worry about wrapping up a case. If you are telling a story within 2 hours..either the story will not have much to it..or the gameplay will be very short. Now I'm not going to be able to judge this until I've actually played the game.. but until then I'm gonna try and figure out how you can have a adventure game episode lasting only 2 hours.. I mean people complained out from boneville was too short and that was about 3-4 hours.. What could you possible do in a game half of that :-?

and let me make another point.. I thought there was some very clever puzzles in the great cow race..which I really enjoyed..but they didn't take long to solve because there was really nothing else to get caught up on or stuck with.. a bigger world more things to do gives you a larger range of possibilities..suddenly that clever little puzzle is harder and you have to think more..but I dont think you'll be able to have that big a world in a 2 hour game.. In the old luscasarts games I could easily spend 2 hours just on one puzzle.. The challenge is definitely there for Dave & co on this 1 :D

[xChri5x]

I think if the episodes carried on and included locations items from episode 1..it would just get better and better.. but 2 hour self contained episodes.. you can have a good story..you can have some funny stuff for sure..but can you actually have a good "adventure gaming" experience all tied up in 2 hours? [[-o<]

That is the point I've been trying to explain ever since I registered to this forum.

Each episode as its own game: Puzzles become more strict to the episode, nothing can refer to before happened. And puzzles can't unveil itself by time. As it does not make sense to make forced to pick that useless piece of wood, or any other if you don't need it for awhile.

You can imagine it this way too: You are stranded (referring to monkey island) to island each time next episode becomes, which means all the collected stuff becomes irrelevant OR each episode has it's own static given collectibles in pocket, which have been forced to pick up earlier.

Instead of one challenging chess game, you are playing twenty little chess games. (Notice that in one chess game the moves you make at the beginning means something, rather than in twenty little games, as each game is it's own)

All the problems of own-game-episodic presentation could be "fixed" with expanding episodic presentation.

Here is an diagram that shows exactly how episodic presentation affects the linearity of the adventure game:
(for those of you who does not have a such a strong image what does it mean)
http://koti.mbnet.fi/ciantic/telltalegames_small.png
("larger" version: http://koti.mbnet.fi/ciantic/telltalegames.png)

yeah... okay.

[Diduz]

Ciantic, we're not talking about one SINGLE game broken in pieces, we're talking about many little games with a shared subplot. "The Great Cow Race" DOES feature an Adventure Game Plot System and lasts five hours. It could easily last two hours if it contained just the central part, which is non-linear, BTW.
It's a different way to conceive the adventure gaming experience: is it worse than the old one? Is it better than the old one? IT IS DIFFERENT. Adventure gaming won't die because of the Sam & Max Season One. We're experiencing the birth of a subgenre. We've already witnessed the puzzlegame-adventure hybrid with Myst, now we're faced with something else. ;)

P.S.: Does anyone remember Coktel Vision's Gobliins 2 & 3? Each chapter contained two or three locations, YET puzzles weren't linear. Lot of fun, tricky difficulty level too.

[mikdog]

I think Ciantic's got the right idea.

Ever watch a TV episode of Inspector Morse, The Firm, or Law & Order? In each episode they had a particular crime to solve, and subsequent episodes didn't affect other episodes. Each episode was its own little bundle of puzzles, clues and solutions. Locations were never revisited from previous episodes, apart from the generic locales like their office, their bosses office, etc. However, each episodes sometimes ended with a bit of a cliffhanger to lead into the next episode.

I think that's what Telltale are going to do with Sam & Max, although I could be completely wrong. That formula seems to work for TV series - how it applies to an interactive game world is another story altogether. I'm inclined to say part of the whole experience of such an adventure game lets the player revisit old locations to discover a whole new set of NPC dialogue, clickable options, and so forth.

However, in an adventure game, once I've done what needs to be done in a certain location, I seldom find reason for revisiting it, unless I think it might help me to solve a puzzle or progress further in the game.

With that said, I look forward to see how Telltale can be as creative as possible with this mould, it certainly allows for it.

[CousinSven]

I find it rather peculiar that a lot of people are absolutely convinced of the negative effects of episodic content, when all we have seen so far is an announcement teaser.

There's a bunch of obviously talented people at work here... I think it's safe to cut them some slack and trust in their good judgement.

Also, linearity isn't the end of adventure gaming. There are tons of excellent linear games out there. If we can get something like half a Grim Fandango year per episode, that would be incredible.

[mikdog]

I find it rather peculiar that a lot of people are absolutely convinced of the negative effects of episodic content, when all we have seen so far is an announcement teaser.

There's a bunch of obviously talented people at work here... I think it's safe to cut them some slack and trust in their good judgement.

Also, linearity isn't the end of adventure gaming. There are tons of excellent linear games out there. If we can get something like half a Grim Fandango year per episode, that would be incredible.

Who's being so negative?

I attack you, hi-ya.

[Haggis]

half a Grim Fandango year per episode
In 2 hours?! ;)

But anyway... Telltale are doing something new here, so it's logical for all of us to get all worked up. I'm sure they'll come up with something wonderful, but the fact that this game is made by talented people doesn't magically take away all of my questions and reservations.

Episodic content is of course a tried and trusted concept... for television. It hasn't been tried for games a lot yet, so I hope people will be ready for this rather radical change. Sure, some other companies do it and it appears to be successful, but how will this be a few years down the road? What would happen if every game you play was episodic? Either people would play far less games, or these episodic games would have to be drastically lowered in price... yeah, yeah, it works for television. Because it's free. If I want to keep up with 10 television series, I just have to invest a lot of time. If I want to keep up with 10 episodic game series, I have to invest time and money, and I just want to know if I can get the most bang for my buck.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that I don't hate episodic games per se - Bone is magnificent! - but 2 hours of gameplay has a potential to be overpriced... I would even find 5 dollars to be a bit on the pricey side compared to other games, but just acceptable. Meh, now I'm going all negative again, but that's just because I desperately want Telltale to get this right.

[/rant]

[mikdog]

I'm with you Haggis.

I'm like, holding thumbs at home, wanting to do something, but it's out of my hands. (I suppose is I were more proactive, I could do something, but I'm not.) Telltale have got the ball in their court completely, and they're making Sam & Max history as we speak...I mean, as we type.

I think Sam & Max will continue on well into the future, long after we're dead. So, I concur; 'MEH', it would be great for Telltale's talented people to do what they do best, and make something schweet and awesome. We just have to sit around, triddle our fingers, and hope for the best.

TELLTALE OKES: Get it right, or I will be very upset, and if I am upset, I will cause a glacial wall to develop right outside your offices with my sheer mind-power. I did that once before, but please don't tell anyone.

[xChri5x]

I should play Grim Fangdando.

and I call myself an adventure gamer.

I haven't even played that old indy game or finished Escape from monkey island!

I just have to find them somewhere cheap.

Plus I haven't played any Bone games!

[HieroHero]

Well I think the great cow race worked very well.. right amount of gameplay right price.. I don't think anyone could complain about that experience.. The 2 hour gameplay for Sam and Max concerns me, mainly because these will be self contained games. With bone its a little longer but the story also continues on.. Guess we will just have to wait and see..

[jp-30]

The 2 hour gameplay for Sam and Max concerns me, mainly because these will be self contained games. With bone its a little longer but the story also continues on.. Guess we will just have to wait and see..

While no-one at Telltale has denied it yet, I'd be curious as to the source of this whole "Two Hour" thing that everyone's so worked up about.

A direct quote in an interview, or in the middle of journolist's copy with no direct quote to back it up?

Maybe they're just exercising caution, given what they were saying about Out From Boneville's length pre release and what it actually ended up being for some people.

Or maybe a 2 hour gameplay experience will simply work. That's longer than most movies, and people start complaining if movies approch or exceed the 3 hour mark to tell their 'self-contained story'. Go figure. :p

[xChri5x]

2 hours for who though?

Some people can get halfway through hit the road in two hours while other people only get half that

[HieroHero]

The 2 hour gameplay for Sam and Max concerns me, mainly because these will be self contained games. With bone its a little longer but the story also continues on.. Guess we will just have to wait and see..

While no-one at Telltale has denied it yet, I'd be curious as to the source of this whole "Two Hour" thing that everyone's so worked up about.

A direct quote in an interview, or in the middle of journolist's copy with no direct quote to back it up?

Maybe they're just exercising caution, given what they were saying about Out From Boneville's length pre release and what it actually ended up being for some people.

Or maybe a 2 hour gameplay experience will simply work. That's longer than most movies, and people start complaining if movies approch or exceed the 3 hour mark to tell their 'self-contained story'. Go figure. :p

Well from the Sam and Max FAQ

How will Sam and Max episodes compare to your Bone episodes?

Bone is episodic, and Sam & Max will be episodic, but most of the similarities end there. We'll be using a different model with Sam & Max than we use with Bone. A Sam & Max game will be more self-contained than a Bone game — more like playing an episode of a sitcom than a chunk of a movie. Each Sam & Max episode will be shorter than, say, The Great Cow Race, but they'll also be released much closer together. And they'll be even easier on your wallet.

See already, playing an episode of a sitcom.. more self contained than Bone..hey I thought Bone was pretty self contained to begin with! Getting them closer together is obviously a very good thing.. I think the story..the humour can totally work in this format..my only concern is how much game are we gonna get in 2 hours :p


and yeah some1s two hours could be another persons 4 hours.. The great cow race must have taken me atleast 5-6 hours to complete..maybe the smnmx episodes will be more like 3 hours for me :)

[jp-30]

Right - shorter (and cheaper) than Cow Race. Cow race took me about 5 or six nights of playing 60 to 90 minutes a stretch, so I'm not too phased.

Ahh, Here's the source (http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2006/051206_e3_day2_chris_1.x) Remo, eh?

Bruner informed me that development on Sam & Max is now in full swing, with the full designs for the first two episodes complete and actual production underway. The first installment should arrive for purchase via Telltale's website as well as through the GameTap online game subscription. While the company likens its Bone games, based on Jeff Smith's acclaimed graphic novels, to a miniseries, it looks at Sam & Max more like a full television series. Each two-hour episode will see Sam & Max solve a complete case, with an overarching storyline tying the episodes together and culminating in a season finale-like grand finish.

Only place I've ever seen that 2 hour thing mentioned, and it's not a direct quote.

[Rapp_Scallion]

I don't really know how to say it, but an episodic game kinda like Plunder Island, except that it ends with that, would be great. Well, that's perhaps the longest part of CMI, so maybe I should expect less than that. But it's just how it's done, and at the same time kinda self-contained. Purpose: Get a ship and a crew. And then it ends and moves on to the next part. But it's so much that happens, and different puzzles that must be solved, but don't have to be solved to solve another puzzle. Well, it's the same with Blood Island. I actually think one thing I disliked wth Hit the Road was that too often you had to go back to old places to solve one puzzle, and couldn't get on with the game or solve other puzzles before one puzzle was solved.

But I know, Grim Fandango was brilliant as well. I suppose you know what you're doing. It isn't the way the puzzles is designed that makes a good game. The most important thing is a rich world, and if the puzzles contribute to that it's a good thing. Non linearity worked great in some parts in Plunder Island, just think of the snake and the swamp. It wasn't possible to get on with the game before you had got past the obstacles, but they made the island feel more rich, if you know what I mean. It worked great to create a little suspense to the player. More dramatic. If you could just walk away it wouldn't have been that exciting [:P] It made the island feel more exotic with a lot of dangerous and unexplored places.

Well, in short, I want rich episodes with both linearity and non-linearity, but with a non-linear basis. And I can't say it too many times, the world has to feel rich, and not feel stripped down. I really believe it can work.

Edit: Hm, starting to wonder if some of my wishes would not work for Sam'n'Max... Ah, crap, just make it marvellous, will ye? :p

And, and! I want at least one episode to happen at night!

[DoubtedEdwardo]

There is a completely different way of looking at this. Rather than getting lots of games that are far shorter than a normal one we are getting one game that is far longer. I don't mean the season as a whole I mean the fact we have to wait for the next episode. Instead of getting the whole game and racing through it, we get part of the game then wait for the next part. I'm not sure but if there is enough replayability in the episodes so you don't get bored waiting for the next one it could seem like the game lasts for ages.

[mikdog]

I'm already tired of this game

[Pvt._Public]

I think everyone needs to trust in the fact that we have seasoned game designers hashing out these very issues as we speak. ;)

<sarcasm> No! the experienced designers know nothing of how to make games! It's up to us raving howling inexperienced fans to tell you how to make the game! And then complain if you do! </sarcasm>

On a slightly more serious and totally unrelated note, anyone here played Dreamfall? Apart from the totally suckerific combat (How to beat every fight in game: Hold block and strafe until the enemy waltzes past you. quick attack until they block you. Now heavy attack until they stop standing still and blocking. Repeat as necessary) and the half-arsed stealth sections it's fan-tucking-fastic.

[errorage]

I think everyone needs to trust in the fact that we have seasoned game designers hashing out these very issues as we speak.

Sure we do... and the fact is that there are only so many hit the road fans on this planet... i strongly support non-lineraity (well... i created this thread...) but the fact is that the market is very small for advanture games... and just by making them telltale is putting itself at great risk of non-success... as for the gaming market it demands short games with great graphics, a crap storyline, non-empire earth 2 sounds etc.

The era of hit the road is unfortunately over. I doubt it will return untill graphics, phisics, AI and so on are 100% true to life!

Summary: they have enough exp to know they should follow what the market demands of them... not what some errorage from slovenia, a country they never heard of, told them...

tho i would love a hit the road style game...

Matt from Slovenia (The chicken like country east of Italy)

[mikdog]

ANGRY MOB ON ITS WAY!

[errorage]

I'll get the beanut butter, you get the dunking stool! we'll see how long they'll refuse to obay their fans! MUHAHAHAHA

btw: i'm just kidding...

Actually this linearity issue sparked an idea in my head... now, in SAM the linearity was nun existant... in bone there's linearity all over the place... what if you make that game in the style of the kyrandia franchise (whitch includes The legend of kyrandia: "The hand of fate (Westwood Studios )" and "Malcom's revenge (Virgin Interactive (1994))")

Those two games have a sense of linearity, however you can always move between a minimum of two rooms in whitch there are the objects you need to complete the puzzle...

As i remember in the 1st Bone game you couldn't mave anywhere... all the clues were in the same room. I think this would surely satisfy the expectations of most SAM:HTR fans...

Matt from Slovenia (i think i made clear where that is... :D)

[Lazerus]

Ive not actually played Bone yet. And the statement that all the clues for each puzzle are in the same room pretty much dictates that I never will.

[Emily]

Ive not actually played Bone yet. And the statement that all the clues for each puzzle are in the same room pretty much dictates that I never will.

Well, take it with a grain of salt, because it's not a true statement. ;)

[artwking]

Ive not actually played Bone yet. And the statement that all the clues for each puzzle are in the same room pretty much dictates that I never will.

Well, take it with a grain of salt, because it's not a true statement. ;)
This is to be taken with a grain of salt, as well. Every other puzzle is a slider puzzle, and the rest are use-newspaper-to-get-key-stuck-in-key-hole puzzles. 8-}

[Jake]

Ive not actually played Bone yet. And the statement that all the clues for each puzzle are in the same room pretty much dictates that I never will.

Well, take it with a grain of salt, because it's not a true statement. ;)
This is to be taken with a grain of salt, as well. Every other puzzle is a slider puzzle, and the rest are use-newspaper-to-get-key-stuck-in-key-hole puzzles. 8-}

This too must be taken with a grain of salt, because it's a whopping lie. :p

[jp-30]

Get you salt shakers here. Going cheap. Salt shakers. Come and get 'em. You know you want one. Only $4.99.

[Jake]

Get you salt shakers here. Going cheap. Salt shakers. Come and get 'em. You know you want one. Only $4.99.

I dunno... doesn't look like that much salt for $4.99 (quite a hefty price for a shaker).

[jp-30]

Get you salt shakers here. Going cheap. Salt shakers. Come and get 'em. You know you want one. Only $4.99.

I dunno... doesn't look like that much salt for $4.99 (quite a hefty price for a shaker).

http://www.bnspcc.com/dalekpwt87.jpg

[Pvt._Public]

It's as if each and every single one of my dreams have come true at once.

[jp-30]

It's as if each and every single one of my dreams have come true at once.

You can set them up at your doorstep to ward off slugs.

[IronCladChicken]

The more I think about it, the less fussed I am about the new Sam & Max being like Hit the Road (there’s only one Ron Gilbert after all) - I definitely want the humour and the feel of the comics to come through the game, but I'm less fussed about repeating game mechanics/style than I am about playing an enjoyable game - Since episodic gaming is still a pretty fresh idea (especially in the mainstream), I'd definitely prefer the game to take advantage of (and definitely poke a little fun at) the new distribution medium, developments in point and click adventuring, all that kind of stuff.

It was kind of the same with the voices - Like JP wrote, the problem isn’t that they sounded a little different - but that the timing was off - If they can spend a little time getting the timing right (which most humorous video games tend to screw up) then I reckon their onto a winner here?

I'm always interested in cheesy ideas for episodic games having bonus's for people who played the previous title (and I guess still have it installed on their machine/get a code for completing the prior chapter(s) - nothing big, a running gag or two, extra dialog (specific to the previous episodes) etc... So people who have played along the whole game feel invested, and people who are trying out with the latest instalment wont feel too confused... Or mini-competitions, so the first 50(?) people to complete the last chapter/find the secret message (definitely bonus for replay values) get the next chapter (downloadable) for free? Obviously these ideas really suck (I'm just bored at work :) ) but there’s definitely the potential for enhancements to game play from episodic titles - definitely the potential for communities to grow (& become obsessed, then complain) around this sort of gaming structure?

Am I rambling nonsensically here?

[HieroHero]

Am I rambling nonsensically here?

Yes... Yes you are :))

[IronCladChicken]

Yes... Yes you are :))

Did I just walk straight into that?

[Haggis]

Yes... Yes you are :))

Did I just walk straight into that?
Yes... Yes you did... ;)