Adventure Games: 3D vs. 2D

[rickscales]

I'm not sure if it's kosher to make my first post here a new topic, but this thread idea pertains well to an adventure gaming board.

As an adventure-gamer, do you prefer sprite-based games (Day of the Tentacle, Kings Quest, etc.) or 3D-modeled games (Grim Fandango, Monkey Island 4)?

I personally prefer the scheme of a good old 2D adventure game, because 3D adventure games seem harder to control, especially since they don't use the mouse. I guess I wouldn't complain if I could use the mouse when I control my characters' movements, though.

[algardex]

I like both as long as they are done right, and 3d suits action adventures better, ( TRUE action adventures like the alone in the dark trilogy and timegate)

[ThreeHeadedMonkey]

I prefer the retro 2D games myself; but that's just because I like old technology.

[Burn]

I prefer 3-D. 2-D games,(this is my guess) will get most of the people's votes around here due to the all the classic scumm games. Anyway, by 3-D, I mean the whole hog. None of that half asked prerendered background, 3-D models type of "3-D". Otherwise I vote 2-D. By the way,you should keep a tally of who votes for what.

2-D Sofar=6
3-D Sofar=2
On the Fence=3

[cappuchok]

My vote goes to 2D. Even though Grim was great and all, the control system was definitely strange. I much prefer mousedriven interfaces such as Full Throttle's, or even the old verb-based pre-Monkey Island games.

If a 3D adventure game comes along that is done the right way, I might come to terms with the use of 3D. But that requires that the controls still be 2D (ie mouse driven interface á la Sam & Max) and the entire game world be fully 3D (ie no pre-rendered backgrounds) and have dynamic (possibly user-controllable) camera movement (with well-defined "scenes") and other stuff that will add to the feeling of playing a really great interactive movie.

But of course, the story is the most important in an adventure, so don't get sidetracked.

[Burn]

You can always but a verb system into 3-D, even Point and Click Movement. Sure the GrimE engine wwas buggy, hard to control and wasn't fooling anyone to the fact it wasn't full 3-D, but it was only the start, (and looking more like the end,) of Lucasarts 3-D adventures. If a company like Lucasarts developed a 3-D Adventure game today it would be full 3-D not imitation 3-D.

[BarfHappy]

I finished both monkey 4 and grim and didn t like the controls at all, only the games humor made me continue. i prefer a million times the old "point and click"...

in fact, i have played dozens of times lucas 2D adventures (well, except loom), but just thinking about the awkward controls makes me not wanting to replay the half-3D ones.

[DFKT]

2D is the greatest for my likes/needs... In fact, I like 320x240 games better than bigger resolutions, pixels are sweet! ;) And those games work great on ScummVM for my Palm PDA, where the interface is just right for adventure gaming: just point&click the stylus, even more simple than mouse-interaction. You got one axis less to 'translate', you work direct on the screen.

Fake-3D games like Grim Fandango or MI4 sure aren't as nice to control, but in the meantime there have been some more games that use pre-rendered backgrounds and 3D-characters put in them: Syberia, Longest Journey, etc. - Those games are much better to control than the older ones...

I also played Uru - Ages Beyond Myst, which is a DX9-full-3D adventure/puzzle-game (the first one I've tried) and to my surprise it was extremely nice to handle.

[hook]

Although 3d adventures can be fun and nice and all, I do prefere 2d adventures.
Why?
1) it has a more home-y feeling (being an oldskool adventurer)
2) 2d graphics can be nowadays used to the max without any problems. 3d depends too much on the hardware (and software/library) to show it's quality.

I'd love to see another SCUMM game (maybe SCUMM version 9 perhaps?)

...but then again, I guess we're all saying that, because most (awesome) adventures we've played were 2d ...for a simple reason that back then 3d was waaaay chunkier then nowadays. and I'm sure if you'd ask an adventurer in the 80's the same question about text or graphic, he'd say "text!"

[cappuchok]

Come to think of it, I have actually played one Grim/MI4-like fake-3D adventure game (pre-rendered backgrounds, some 3D / some prerendered characters) that had a point-and-click interface and actually played quite nicely. Of course, I'm talking about Discworld Noir. The story didn't quite appeal to me as much as the first two Discworld games did (bring back Rincewind!) but the game engine itself was pretty much flawless.

[DFKT]

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Ah yeah, those were the days! :))
Let's all head to Flood Control Dam #3...

[kgsullivan]

I enjoy 2d adventure games far more then 3d. In terms of techonology, I think Curse of Monkey Island was the greatest. It had beautiful art and animation yet was still 2d. If they made a game like that now, using modern rendering techniques, it would be stunning.

[psychonaut]

Hai!

I do not thing, that there is a (serious) 3D versus 2D discussion!
It is not the right question.
In the future there will be only 3D games, but will there be still adventures? Will there be story-telling games? We all know the answer. On the other hand, you have to ask:
Is there already an 3D-game-engine build for adventuregames, that is compareble with 2D adventures?
Even Grims engine was not, but the story was so awesome, I (you) never mind.
So maybe the developers just have to make a better 3d-engine, haven't they?
I think no. Take a look to "Psychonauts" and you will see the answer. You have to mix 3d with 2d, good music with good story.
Just make a better job than the rest.
Do the right stuff , so there won't be missed left over stuff.
I think, we should discuss seriously about entertainment rather than stupid 3d.vs.2d nonsense.

B-)

[gryphius]

I'd say it depends on the adventure type wheter you should use 2D or 3D. Let's take Monkey Island: For me, Guybrush and his friends always were COMICS, like calvin & hobbes or garfield. Same amount of fun, same type of graphics. And comics can not be done right in 3D. (Look at the models in MI4 - horrible!)
I agree that there are several adventures that did a very nice job using 3d perspectives: The longest journey, Syberia I & II, The moment of silence. Those are not comic-adventures though.

Full ack to the steering problems with 3d too, I like point and click...

[DFKT]

In the future there will be only 3D games, but will there be still adventures? Will there be story-telling games? We all know the answer.

That's a rather wild generalisation - I disagree.
Look at all the emerging Flash/Java-2D games on the web: http://www.albartus.com/motas/ or http://www.pinheadgames.com etc...
2D is not dead, it's just shifted to other places/means than being sold on diskettes/CDs by major companies.
2D is an independent thing nowadays.

I think, we should discuss seriously about entertainment rather than stupid 3d.vs.2d nonsense.

We discuss a lot of things in here. And as you might see, most people (in this thread) prefer 2D games to 3D.
What is it you want to discuss about 'entertainment'?

[hook]

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Ah yeah, those were the days! :))
Let's all head to Flood Control Dam #3...

Speaking of the wolf...

There's a film (and software) studio called the General Coffee Company (http://www.generalcoffee.com) which made a text based "interactive fiction"/game (open source) system - Hugo (http://www.generalcoffee.com/hugo.html)
and here's a linkie to their (new) game Future Boy (http://www.generalcoffee.com/futureboy)

...yes! text-based (with optional graphics) adventure game ...I couldn't believe it when I saw it! Works on lots of platforms (even PalmOS and some Nokia mobile phones O_o) thanks to the open nature of the engine.

[DFKT]

Thanks for the info, hook! - That game looks really great, gonna hit the demo ASAP!

Strange thing, that Hugo-engine. I never heard of any game written in ANSI C before...

[hook]

Strange thing, that Hugo-engine. I never heard of any game written in ANSI C before...

well, they *are* a film crew in it's origins ;) ...but, yea ANSI C ...respect! dunno what else to say

...although - the galaga-like Tom Bombem (http://www.deater.net/weave/vmwprod/tb1/tb_asm.html) written in assembler is still my favourite when it comes to that

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

i vote 2D

3d is good also

Syberia 1&2 look great,still gota play them :(

Mi4 was horible in 3d.ugly models.

moment of silence looks also great,played the demo :D

has lots of nice cut scene's

[Burn]

!!!Talley Mark!!!

2-D So far=7
3-D So far=2
On the Fence=4

P.s.

Captain Le chimp, your're a yaking fiend.

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

!!!Talley Mark!!!

2-D So far=7
3-D So far=2
On the Fence=3

P.s.

Captain Le chimp, your're a yaking fiend.

what do you mean
with youre a yaking fiend

[Burn]

You have 6 of the 10 most rescent posts on the front page. That's impressive in my books.

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

lol i have lots of time to post


thats why i am sir yakalot :D


:-/

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

lol i have lots of time to post


thats why i am sir yakalot :D


:-/

[DFKT]

Is there an echo in here?

[anamanfan]

The 3D/2D topic to me is like comparing charcoal drawings and pencil drawings. Each has has their own artistic value that changes the perception of the artistic content. To say that one is better than the other is to say that certain media of art work is invalid or obsolete.

That said, I believe that there are 3D titles that would have worked better 3D and vise versa. "The Longest Journey" (http://www.longestjourney.com/) may have benefited artistically in a full 2D production since the modeling work didn't live up to the pre-rendered backgrounds. Not to mention that April changes appearance between the box art, the different LAVs, and the actual playable character. However, I am excited to see the production of Dreamfall (http://www.dreamfall.com/) and confident that Ragnar T�rnquist will still keep his quality storytelling skills and have a presentation that will match his rich narratives.

But is there room for 2D? I think so. I'm sorta banking on it with my own project Antidote (http://www.antidote-game.com/). It's a graphic adventure much like Myst, but is heavily dependent on live-action video and existing sets (only one scene will be CGI'd). As long as the interface is solid and with a narrative that engages the user, that's all I need to care about. If a player can't get beyond a 3D rendered space, then there is no hope for me to tell the story to them. They are only looking for pencil drawings.

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

dont think 2d doesnt have a comercial future

[Alucard]

I don't know why everyone is convinced 2d adventure games don't have a future. When it comes to games like these I find they are the best in 2d. Just like how the 2d fighter is harder to find these days they are still out there. Games like Guilty Gear still do fine for fighting games. So why not adventure games ? I guess if people see 2d games as having less value they are less likely to spend 80 bucks on it instead of a 3d game but thats for us to decide. I know I'd pay for a quality adventure game in 2d provided it was long and hard enough to warrent a buy but the price of games vs worth is another topic for another day....

[DFKT]

dont think 2d doesnt have a comercial future

2D comics have a future, 2D cartoons have, 2D paintings have, hell, even my computer-screen is only 2D! ;)

Certainly for 'realism', 3D delivers more... but I want toonish games...

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

2d can be cartoonish,3d also


ps: beware of that vampira after you :D

[DFKT]

ps: beware of that vampira after you :D

Vampira?
Where?
Next to the three-headed monkey?
:D

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

ps: beware of that vampira after you :D

Vampira?
Where?
Next to the three-headed monkey?
:D

A vampire!

[DFKT]

Eeeek!

I hope you're not implying I'm some kinda gothic-dude, or something... :D But vampira from the 50ies sure looked hot!

EDIT: Oooh, you're talking about what's cooking at Bad Brains...

[GameMaster]

A tough question. Both types have their positive moments and their flaws. In our days 3D adventures are becoming more user firendly (no more Grim Fandango'ish control mechanisms). A great example is Wanted: A Wild Western Adventure, which had one of the best 3D point'n'click gameplay.
2D games, on the other hand, have more beutifull backgrounds and usually are better done on the gameplay point of view. 3D's sometimes forget about the gameplay, when giving the gamer a powerfull engine. As I said - a tough question. I prefer both.

[Udvarnoky]

I think both types can be successful or suck depending on how they're executed. If people want the adventure genre to survive (and it must evolve to do so), then they can't simply dismiss 3D or any modern technical advancement because it doesn't resemble the classics.

3D can be done right. I personally didn't mind the engine used in Grim or EMI (though those damned elevators were a nuisance), but I think some people are under the mistaken impression that 3D automatically means pre-rendered backgrounds and "drive the character" controls. That simply isn't true. A game can successfully adapt to the times and simultaneously remain true to the "basics" of the old adventure games (not that I'm thinking of any title in particular (http://www.mixnmojo.com/galleries/11/full20040323145728.jpg) which featured a point 'n click, realtime 3d engine).

But it's time for us to accept that companies are simply not going to produce 2d, point 'n click games anymore, and our insistence for them will not help the future of the genre. How many companies like Autumn Moon do you think are out there, who are willing to make old-style games at the expense of any reasonable income? Don't get me wrong; I love what they're doing, but treats like A Vampyre Story can't be expected to come along very often. Instead, we should be looking to companies like Double Fine and Telltale, who are exploring new ways to evolve story-driven games and hope that they become successful so that other companies may follow the example.

[psychonaut]

Hai!
As i mentioned before:
This dicussion 3d vs. 2d "style" is useless. There is no 3d AND no 2d style.
A good game allways depend on good artistic performance and good programing. Now a days a game will use 3d technics, even, if it looks like 2d.
What makes "3d" so emotionless, is, that the most artists are not able to handle the stuff. Technic of progrming may have developed so far, but does artistic technic has been developed the same way? I do not think so. Most artists should remember the "good old times", because they should remember the values, emotions. Real 3d will take a longer time till it is able to carry all that thoughts that where carry by pixeled 2d images.
Now a days most "3d-artist" try to be realistic. I do not think that this is an art-style. This shows, that they, the 3d artist, have no style at all, except Leonardo ...

[Burn]

Hang on, a good artist can do many styles, what if they where told to go for a realistic style. That's not their fault is it, just earning a pay check. And what if there working with a team of artists all designing 3-D enviroments for the same game. It takes talent to be able to work the same style as somebody else.

[misanthrope]

Like copy-cat murders?

[Burn]

More like a two or more murderers that have the same style and split the load. Like in the original scream, ever seen that movie? I'd watched Scary Movie before that and I was convinced that the murderer was the cop with the mustache.

[misanthrope]

I murdered the mailman once and left him on my friend's front porch lol! that was funny! he was like, "what the hell!?"
Not the mailman, my friend. The mailman didnt say anything. he didnt have a chance to...

oh yea, therapys workin' out

[pennstat]

Personally, I really hate questions like this only because too many people seem to put a very ridiculous stress on presentation as though that's all that matters. Presentation is only a part of an overall production. In fact, many like myself would argue that the story is usually the most engrossing part of any game.

Take Doom III . I've seen the graphics. They're phenomenal. But what story is there? Oh, you walk around blowing up demons. The word "repetitious" doesn't begin to describe that.

Similarly, take "Sam and Max", which is one of the funniest games ever made. Great story, fantastic humor, great voice acting, visual jokes all over the place. The people who focus so much on presentation might as well say, "Well, it would be a lot better if it was 3D." No, it wouldn't. The "South Park" game sucked royal chunks of ass. It converted 2D to 3D, but there was no story, no plot, and no fun. Converting 2D characters to 3D means nothing to the success of any kind of game.

(Of course, the fact is that "3D" as it's currently accepted is NOT 3D since it's viewed on a 2D screen. True 3D requires red/blue or some other stereoscopic format. But, that's another topic all together...)

My two cents. It is your responsibility to convert that into your country's monetary denomination.

[Burn]

But Sam and Max was well presented. They made it look like the comic books, and that's what fans wanted rather than 3-D. Presentation is very important. When it comes to adventure games it can be used to create a atmosphere. Doom 3d had gameplay that didn't have much story, but compare it to the original Doom and it's overflowing with story. Doom 3-D didn't need story, but they threw some in for good measure. People buy FPS like Doom for the action, and presentation is important there.

[WorldDominationX]

I'm going to go with 2-D because i had a lot of trouble with the Escape from Monkey Island ranging from crashes, trying to angle my character jsut right to activate an action and the difficulty of finding objects (coffee cup in the window, glue next to stan's shop)

[Captain_Le_Chimp]

Both

2d rocks

and 3d in S&M2 screens reaaly looked good :D

[tarasis]

I don't know why everyone is convinced 2d adventure games don't have a future.

Partly because GFX card manufacturers are supposidly pushing games companies to only release 3-d games. A cool 2d game with whizzy SFX is less like to sell cards compared to a 3d game.

[tarasis]

In the future there will be only 3D games, but will there be still adventures? Will there be story-telling games? We all know the answer.

I don't think there will only be 3D games. As production costs continue to go up in game development I think there is going to be a continuing trend of garage start-ups emerging again like it did in the 80's.

[Steve2000]

To me the interface is more important than the 2D vs. 3D argument. I may have said this before, but I hated having to use the arrow keys to spin guybrush around and move him in EMI. I would have been fine with the 3D if I could have just clicked with the mouse to move him. 3D or 2D as long as it is point and click - which I know is what Telltale has said they will do.

Therefore I am happy.

[pennstat]

But Sam and Max was well presented. They made it look like the comic books, and that's what fans wanted rather than 3-D. Absolutely. It was incredibly rich in story, amination, humor, puzzle challenges, and so forth. The fact that it was not pseudo-3D does not diminish the game one iota. I'm only saying that I'm not impressed with how a lot of people that I have had this discussion with over my 20 years of gaming somehow come to think that 2D != quality and 3D == fantastic!

Uh, yeah, okay. Is that why the ASCII-based Nethack and the totally 2D Ultima VII are still very popular? B-)

[hainrs]

So, is this game 3D on 2D backgrounds? It looks that way but I haven't read a single comment in an interview that says so. They all simply say 3D, and it's hard to tell if it's 2.5D or really nice realtime 3D.

[Udvarnoky]

Full 3-D.

[jklose]

3D does not necessarily mean any difference regarding the mouse interface. You can have the same beautiful still screens and a point-and-click mouse interface like the old Monkey Island games, and at the same time it's all rendered in 3D. And if the graphics are done well, you can enjoy the game just as any classic 2D game.
But with 3D you can also unleash the camera all of a sudden, and the whole scene begins to move, or you can change the camera position in dialogs and make close-ups of characters. You have many possibilities in 3D, and if the game is done right, it can still have the spirit of the 2D classics.
Have a look at Ankh (http://www.deck13.com/english/ankh.html) to see what I mean :)

[hainrs]

So, where's the quote that says this is full 3D? They look like 2D backgrounds.

[Udvarnoky]

In the the newsarama interview (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30327), it says the game features 3D characters and environments, which I would take to mean real-time 3D.

But hey, if you don't buy that dig around some of the old interviews and I'm sure you'll find where they say it point-blank - it's there somewhere. Maybe one of the team members will even confirm it for you.

[Heatherlee]

Or you can check here:
http://www.telltalegames.com/bone_the_game?action=bone_game&sub=game

[Udvarnoky]

[:">]

[hainrs]

Or you can check here:
http://www.telltalegames.com/bone_the_game?action=bone_game&sub=game

All that says is lovingly rendered in 3D. That could very well mean a constructed 3D world displayed via prerenders. I'm sure it does mean realtime, but it is ambiguous.

The same goes for the Newsrama interview. It says 3D characters and environments. Again, we know the environments are constructed in 3D, but that quote doesn't mean they're displayed in realtime in the game.

[Udvarnoky]

This is beginning to remind me of the debate over whether or not Sam & Max 2 (sorry) was pre-rendered or in realtime 3D based on some not-so-clear screenshots from a magazine scan. Suffice to say a game can look pre-rendered when it's not.

[pennstat]

Sam & Max 2 (sorry)
Oh, that was cruel - reminding us of the game that never came to be. (Damn you to hell, Lucas!!!!)

Thank you so much for bringing up such a painful subject. While you're at it, why don't you give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it? -- Miracle Max (No, not that Max)

[Wile_E]

Would it be possible for someone to add mouse-driven interface to Monkey Island 4, and Grim Fandango? Like add it to the SCUMM emulator?

I would think that SCUMM emulator developers could add this option. Add an interupt in the emulator, that intercepts the controls. So where you point with mouse, gets converted.

[Diduz]

I would think that SCUMM emulator developers could add this option. Add an interupt in the emulator, that intercepts the controls. So where you point with mouse, gets converted.

That's impossible. :(
Grim and Monkey 4 are not programmed in SCUMM.
Dom

[enereth]

I enjoy 2d adventure games far more then 3d. In terms of techonology, I think Curse of Monkey Island was the greatest. It had beautiful art and animation yet was still 2d. If they made a game like that now, using modern rendering techniques, it would be stunning.
yeah, that would be so cool! curse was my favorite because of those same reasons. we need more games like that

[torusturtle]

I prefer the retro 2D games myself; but that's just because I like old technology.

I second that!
I love those old fashion 2D games.

[jp-30]

yeah, that would be so cool! curse was my favorite because of those same reasons. we need more games like that

Runaway. Beautiful looking game, but horrible plot, characters & puzzles.

[sokuni]

Well, I'm nowadays starting to accept the 3D even in adventure games, but the thing that bothers me greatly is the user interface.

I love point 'n click -adventure, when it is real point 'n click, which means you control the game with a mouse and not with your keyboard like in Grim Fandango (otherwise that game is brilliant). I find the moving and doing stuff as a pain in my butt if I can't do it simply by clicking the target with my mouse.

Good thing these new Sam 'n Max -episodes do it traditionally. :)