Distribution

[avatar_58]

Greetings to the Telltale team. First I would like to say thank-you for taking an interest in my fav genre and I hope all the best to you and your new game. :D

Having said that, I have some questions.

I recently heard on another forum that you have chosen to distribute the game in episodic format online via download purchases. This is where my problem lies. I am someone who likes to have a physical CD/DVD with my purchase. I also like to have a manual etc but those are less important than having a physical disc.

The reason? Well why am I buying your game? Logically there would be no difference between me paying and downloading as opposed to me pirating the game. I am in no way advocating piracy however I do not like the idea of downloading my purchase instead of walking in a store and getting a box cd the old fashioned way.

Is it because you are in fear of getting screwed by a big game publisher? I would just like to know your reasoning because you have already lost me as a customer :( I was looking forward to this game but now I am not so sure. There are probably hundreds more people with the same opinion as me and is it worth loosing that business? I would have bought one but because I do not get anything physical I have changed my mind. Doesn't this bother the dev team? How many others have been alienated by this type of distribution?

I post here only because I care about the future of the adventure game genre. Ever since the selling of sierra and the (practical) death of lucasarts I have awaited a classic point and click style game. It is a shame that you have decided to choose a type of distribution that I am fully against...

[FreshyK]

The reason? Well why am I buying your game? Logically there would be no difference between me paying and downloading as opposed to me pirating the game. I am in no way advocating piracy however I do not like the idea of downloading my purchase instead of walking in a store and getting a box cd the old fashioned way.
Your "logic" escapes me. What's the difference between buying a copy from the store and going to some guy on the blackmarket who also has physical copies of the games in a box with a printed manual? You get a physical disk either way.

[joebot33]

Don't you see where the future of customers getting games are going? look at music... iTunes revolutionised the music industry by showing that there is a market for downloading music online and people WILL pay for it! So movies are the next step, probably this year or next, and games will follow quickly. it's pretty obvious that this is probably the best way to get more of the types of games you want because developers get to make the games their way, not the publishers way...

So whine all you want about them losing you as a customer, but because of the way they are distributing games, for every one customer that doesn't buy the game because their isn't a CD or manual, 5 more will buy it because it because of it's convenience.

[FreshyK]

I do have a question though. Since this game will be distributed online, will you only accept credit card payment? Unfortunately due to some circumstances I don't have access to a credit card. However, I would be more than happy to pay with cashiers check (I wouldn't even mind paying a bit extra to do that) or something of the sort.

[jp-30]

I know I will be burning my installer file(s) to CD for safe keeping and for precautions against hard-drive failure. Slap the CD in a DVD case, and no doubt some fan (if not Telltale themselves) will produce a nice 300dpi JPG or PDF to print out & slip into the cover. It'll look just fine on your shelf alongside Grim & Curse of Monkey Island.

I dare say the game (as the demo is integrated into the main game, main game unlocked on purchase) will be put on a number of magazine coverdiscs too, saving the download hassle.

As for credit card payments, that can be an issue for some - especially the younger teen market, but hopefully Telltale will work out some other payment methods (paypal etc).

[avatar_58]

Well I don't use i-tunes and I don't plan on it. Also, I want to hear TTG's answer not yours. I could care less if this is where you see the industry going or not and I would like to hear their honest response to my questions.

If this is where PC gaming is headed I feel sorry for the gamer's of tomorrow. At least with consoles we still get physical discs.

[FreshyK]

If this is where PC gaming is headed I feel sorry for the gamer's of tomorrow. At least with consoles we still get physical discs.
Phantom Gaming Service. :p But seriously, one of Bill Gates' (a necessary evil) vision is on demand everything to remove the need of physical media and I think XBOX Live! will be a step towards that goal. However, such a thing can only happen once broadband has a much larger marketshare.

Of course, since this is a public forum, you are going to get other peoples' opinions. If you wanted this to be completely private between TTG and you then you ought to have emailed them.

[Swashbuckler]

I can understand your want for a physical disc, a box to keep it in and a manual you can flip through, but going as far as not buying the game because you don't get that seems a bit extreme to me.

When I heard what they were doing with distribution I thought: Wow, cool These guys are trying something new. I'll probably have an easier time getting hold of the game, it'll probably come cheaper and I know more of my money spent on it go directly back to the people who actually made it.

Of course you're entitled to feel differently about it, but I honestly think Telltale have thought this through more thoroughly than any of us...

[ThreeHeadedMonkey]

I know in another topic someone pointed out that online distribution was much better for the enviroment. I know that it is nice to have a cd but in the end there really isn't much of a point.

[SMNMX]

When I heard what they were doing with distribution I thought: Wow, cool These guys are trying something new. I'll probably have an easier time getting hold of the game, it'll probably come cheaper and I know more of my money spent on it go directly back to the people who actually made it.

Totally. I hope they add Paypal support, but apart from that, the service rocks. You're buying a game straight from the developers, so all the money goes to them. Not to the publishers, not to the people who make the boxes, not to the truck drivers, it all goes to Telltale (which they then use to make a Mac version, right? ;) ).

[Heatherlee]

Thank you for bringing up these questions. I will attempt to address them in a fashion that will not get me in trouble with Dan. ;)

Edit: oops. Attempt failed. I guess that's what I get for upping my daily caffeine regimen. :D
Read this instead. (http://www.telltalegames.com/pr/?permalink=C5F1862B9434ED2F822562FB62CD8C52.txt&smm=y)

[enereth]

While I do like to have a CD (for multiple home computers fir instance) if just downloading the game means that Teltale get s more money, I'm all for it (especialy if some of that money goes towards a sam and max game ;)

[joebot33]

Well said Heather...

I think people that are stubborn will have a hard time adapting to the way things change so quickly with technology these days. Of course it's nice to have a physical disc and case, but honestly, when was the last time anyone looked through their CD collection, went through the booklets, and looked at the case? I haven't bought a physical CD since iTunes launched a few years ago, and I havent missed anything. I still get my music, I still enjoy it because in the end, it's the art that I care about, not all the fluff wrapped around it

[avatar_58]

Well thats basically what I thought, because adventure games will probably never be seen as the hot cake sellers they once were. :(

Well either way I really don't like this style of distribution and probably won't be getting the games I guess. I like to have something physical from my purchase and I don't know why that gets everyone up in arms here...I'm simply telling you my feelings.

*sigh*

I barely even like buying anything online really, because of the many hassles I've had in the past and its utter hell to get a refund. (How will you be doing that I wonder?)

[FreshyK]

I don't know why that gets everyone up in arms here...I'm simply telling you my feelings.
Conversely, I don't know why online distribution gets you up in arms like this.

[Udvarnoky]

I'm sure online distribution was largely a decision of necessity for a company as young and small as Telltale, but it is also a good idea on its own with a lot of exciting possibilities.

One thing I am worried about is kids who want to buy a game. A lot of kids love Bone; very few kids have a credit card or can even ask their parents to use it. There should be a route that such people could take. Even something as stone age as allowing people to mail in money could do wonders (as soon as Telltale receives the cash/check/money order they could update that user's online account to allow for activation). I think there are some creative ways Telltale could reach out to an audience that usually doesn't buy stuff online.

[Udvarnoky]

Also, just to add to add some ideas (read: worthless suggestions), since online distribution is the one way to get these games, just about everyone option imaginable, no matter how ridiculous, should probably be considered if it's not costly.

I know that thus far with TelltaleTexas Hold'Em I think only Visa and Mastercard were accepted (not sure if it was a monetary thing or not). Since not everyone uses those two types, I would hope that in the future more card types would be accepted.

Another thing: phone orders. I don't know if I'm the only one who has encountered someone like this, but I know that for example my Mom never felt comfortable ordering stuff online when it became normal, but she never had or does have a problem ordering by phone, even though it's still giving out your credit card number to somebody (and as far as I know no more secure). I just think there are a lot of people with weird reasons for not ordering online or who have never done it before who could be enticed by a bunch of options. The end result is the same: Telltale gets the money and the customer gets to activate the game. Making their ordering process as a approachable as possible to as many people as possible is key to Telltale's success.

[Assier]

HI ! , I've been following Telltale for a while , yet I never realy felt the urge to post in the forum until now.
Okay I'm just thinkin' out loud here , and I dont know the first thing about bussines etc' , but I really don't like this hole 'Telltale Now' concept .
The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear about online game marketing is mediocrity and unprofessionalism.
I realy don't know how many "copies" of the game u need to sell in order to make a soficient profit , that will allow you to make some more great games, but I realy don't see who would buy the game online who isn't a Bone fan or an adventure games fan - and we all know those are rare in our days .
I'm just saying this because I realy want this company to be succesfull .
But again my main concern is that it all looks very unprofessional .

and sorry for my bad english .... :)

[Phoney]

Hi everyone! This is my first post too, i've been visiting this site for the beginning but now i've decided to post. I really like Sam and Max that's why i was looking for that game in Telltale but then i found Bone and I think it's very interesting.

Well, talking about the distribution, I understand that you want something physical, but... nowadays lots of people buy things by internet, just see Amazon, eBay, iTunes (about 500.000.000 songs in two years), thats progress in technology. If this game is sell in physical stores i'm sure it wouldn't appear here in Europe, and in Spain... where i live, impossible. And that makes that everyone in the world can find this game. And that makes the game cheaper too, because they don't put money in distribution or in virgin cds to be burn or in paper or anything else. The game will be yours directly from the brain of Jeff Smith and Telltale Team without any stupid step between, that's is good for telltale because they can do the games they really want.

But if you insist in something physical... when the game will be released, burn it into a cd and if Telltale makes a manual in PDF print them and put all of this in a case.

See you everyone.
Sorry for my english.

[emmenem]

I think, as many other members, online distribution is for TTG the only chance to survive in this MASS market.
Consider that now no important publisher believe in graphic adventure despite number of fans out there.
But you know, players (the mass) like only shooting, killing, cutting up and only war-games (strategy fps) sell very well (together with those stupid sport games, imho).
Yes of course it can exist also an exception but it's always an exception.
Maybe this post will flame other members but here is the point.
In order to gain a lot of money, publishers support mainly violent-sex based games not games with funny puppets.
I will support TTG by buying Bone; that's for sure.
The intention of this post is to criticize game-market.
I am fed up to enter a store only to see Doom clones, Warcraft clones, Sport games clones and only two or three good graphic adventures (creating a good and balanced graphic adventure is EXTREMELY difficult).
My final words go to TTG (and AMEGames): continue creating BIG games (possibly graphic adventure! :) )
Ciao a tutti!

[SMNMX]

Although it is true that no one will look at the game in the store and think "I've never played adventures or heard of Bone", the sad thing is, they probably wouldn't buy it anyway. People who never played adventures in their golden age don't really understand the fun of them. I've shown my friends some old adventures, and they go "What is this? This is it? Point and click to walk around? Boring!"

However, Telltale Now allows Telltale to get every cent, penny, frank (spelling?), rupee, yen, or whatever from this game. It gives them freedom to do what they want, as well. And most importantly, you'll notice that many (probably most) adventure fans are overseas from the U.S., mostly in Europe. Telltale Now lets them buy the game, too, so Telltale makes even more cash (which they can use to port it to Mac and make even MORE cash, we hope). Also, Bone is also big in the non-U.S. areas (just look at the awards it has won).

OVerall, Telltale Now is the best way. I just want a nice 300 dpi print out for a CD case (I don't have any spare DVD cases) and a Mac version (even if I don't get a Mac copy, at least I'll know that Telltale did want to do one, but financially they couldn't).

I propose a toast to Telltale's prosperity, and the true future of adventures (let's face it, Bad-Brain seems really unproffesional)!

[emmenem]

SMNMX: OVerall, Telltale Now is the best way. I just want a nice 300 dpi print out for a CD case (I don't have any spare DVD cases) and a Mac version (even if I don't get a Mac copy, at least I'll know that Telltale did want to do one, but financially they couldn't).

I love this guy :) !

[SMNMX]

I love this guy :) !

I be loved! :p

[TheTingler]

I've not got a problem with TellTale distributing over the Net, I don't mind paying by Card, but I still need a CD.

How many customers did Valve lose because of Steam? Thousands? They could afford it. Can TellTale?

I have a fast computer, but I don't have a CD writer and if I have to download anything over 200Mb it will take several hours. What happens if I want to Uninstall the game? I don't have a CD, so I'd have to spend hours downloading it again. And what happens if the game needs a lot of space?

Why can't TellTale just burn the game onto a CD and mail it off? I'd pay for that.

Face it people - online distribution is still years off being practical for most people. Even the committed few adventurers & Bone fans in this forum are still torn 50/50 over this - can TellTale really afford to lose their custom? Especially when all they have to is buy a cheap CD and a padded envelope and charge the customer for it - just have the option!

I had this argument at HL2's release and at least they still released a boxed copy.
I WON'T be playing this adventure, even though I really want to, if TellTale don't offer a mail-order option. Because I CAN'T.

[SMNMX]

I have a fast computer, but I don't have a CD writer and if I have to download anything over 200Mb it will take several hours. What happens if I want to Uninstall the game? I don't have a CD, so I'd have to spend hours downloading it again. And what happens if the game needs a lot of space?

Sorry, I have to take a moment to giggle, since all Macs for the last 3 (I think) have shipped with CD burners :)

Face it people - online distribution is still years off being practical for most people.

True. Many people still have *gasp* dial-up!!!

I had this argument at HL2's release and at least they still released a boxed copy.

And then they sued the company releasing the boxed copy.

I WON'T be playing this adventure, even though I really want to, if TellTale don't offer a mail-order option. Because I CAN'T.

That's not what you said. You said it would be an inconvenience downloading it, and then uninstalling it would be annoying. Not that you couldn't play it.

You made one good point (the fact that it is still not entirely practical), but the rest, I apologize for saying this, seemed like whining. Telltale almost certainly won't find a publisher for an adventure game, and can't afford to publish it themselves.

Face it, Telltale Now is what we have, at least at first. Telltale have said they would like to release Bone in other ways (and for other platforms), but will obviously need some money before they can do that.

At least you can play Bone when it comes out, unlike us Mac users.

[jp-30]

The idlethumbs.net preview (I think) says the size will be ~50MB, which is entirely manageable using dialup, a download manager like getright and a few hours (say, while you're sleeping or working).

[emmenem]

What?? O_o Where did you read this? Maybe 50 MB are few for the entire game, aren't they? Now a little poll for you all: how long will be Bone in terms of hours? Let's hope not so (compare 50MB) short!

Ciao!

[Swashbuckler]

I don't think we can expect a very long game, not like a full blown Monkey Island title or say... Day of the Tentacle. Still there should be a decent amount of hours of fun.

To say that the followers here are split 50/50 on the issue of online distribution seems very wrong to me. Most of the posts are positive and manage to see this from TellTales point of view.

Your worries over the lack of a CD, Tingler, is probably without reason. I can't see the game installing directly over the net - I bet most of it will be downloaded to oyour computer and yours to keep. Then you'll have to activate it over the net if you reinstall.

[SMNMX]

I believe the games are meant to be 5-6 hours each. Considering that the locations are small and there won't be too many character models, the only thing I can think of that would severely boost the download size is voice recordings.

[jp-30]

Hmm. I'm sure I read the 50MB thing somewhere but I can no longer find the source, so I'll have to assume either;

a) The info was removed because it was wrong

or (more likely)

b) I dreamt it.

[TheTingler]

And then they sued the company releasing the boxed copy.
Yeah, but that was the publisher's fault for breaching contract. Besides, a big name like Valve can do whatever they want.
I'm not suggesting that TellTale look for a publisher to sell it in the shops (that's not practical), I just want them to stick the install on a CD and mail it out! A jewel case would do, just buy it online, pay an additional shipping charge, stick it in a padded envelope and get it mailed out to anywhere on Earth. Really, is it that hard?
(sigh)
I guess I'll be okay, as long as the files aren't too big and TellTale aren't as paranoid about security as Valve are. Could I download the install file to a different computer, burn it on to a CD there, take it home and validate it here?

[ThreeHeadedMonkey]

That's how it worked with Telltale Texas Hold em, I assume it would be the same for this.

[jp-30]

I'm not suggesting that TellTale look for a publisher to sell it in the shops (that's not practical), I just want them to stick the install on a CD and mail it out! A jewel case would do, just buy it online, pay an additional shipping charge, stick it in a padded envelope and get it mailed out to anywhere on Earth. Really, is it that hard?
(sigh)
I guess I'll be okay, as long as the files aren't too big and TellTale aren't as paranoid about security as Valve are. Could I download the install file to a different computer, burn it on to a CD there, take it home and validate it here?

I'm pretty sure the install file will be able to be burned & archived & used to install the game on all your friends PCs.

Also, seeing it sounds like the game is free for a set portion, and you then unlock the rest of the game via internet validation (one time only) I could easily see magazine coverdiscs & DVDs being used to distribute the file.

What I'm hoping for is Scholastic ships the install file on a 'coverdisc' with copies of the colour comic reprint.

[Vark]

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html

If you haven't read it before, this is a very, very good read. It deals directly with niche markets and online distribution.

Personally, I used to be a manual / cd whore. Then I realized one day all they ever do is sit on a shelf, take up space and collect dust.

I'd rather take immediate gratification and lower prices over a cardboard box I won't think twice about.

I will say however that there needs to be a standard. There needs to be an iTMS like service for games, all run under the same banner and make uniform. It's going to be a problem when consumers need seperate installers / distro methods depending on who's delivering the product whether it be Steam or Telltale Now or whatever.

(Edited for rampant noun redundancy)

[apignarb]

Agreed, that article raises some important issues. But let's just for good measure say that Telltale Now is the coming top-choice distributions outlet for storydriven entertainment, that will leave other distrosystems trembling in their own personal pile of crap games, and the choice of distro outlets for the consumer won't be an issue. (Leave the worrying for others. Heh.) I don't really see a problem with there being different distribution outlets/programs, as long as the products they offer are distinguishable.

[Udvarnoky]

JP, the source of the 50megs thing is here (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=5623).

[jp-30]

JP, the source of the 50megs thing is here (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=5623).

You rock. And I'm not insane!

Hooray!

[LGH]

Hmm, actually I'm wondering: Wouldn't it be a good idea to release this game in two versions. One in 50 Megabyters for those who have slow/limited internet connections, and one in, le'ts say 250 Megabytes with less audio- and video compression?

For example, if you compare the video quality of the cutscenes in Runaway CD and the special edition on DVD, you really DO notice a great difference!

I mean, dealing with two quality sets is common practice when putting trailers on the web, why not do the same with the game?

cu,
LGH

[jp-30]

I may be mistaken, but I'm under the impression cut-scenes are rendered on-the-fly using the game engine, they're not standalone video clips.

If that's the case, there's no high / low video compression to be had.

[SMNMX]

Except for audio.

[jannar85]

I don't think they'll save the audio less than 44100Hz Stereo. Maybe they'll be using OGG, which compresses quite nicely (and the quality is still quite good.)

If they're using MP3 (which they are hopefully not!), they need to pay a licence for each copy sold, which leads to less money.

I think they're paying for the Bone licence as well, like LucasArts did on Sam & Max.

[ClementXVII]

The only thing that worries me with downloaded content VS CD media is the future... the thing like: what happens in 5 - 10 years if I want to play this game again?

Most of the people here are die-hard adventure fans, who made their debuts on Lucasarts and Sierra classics. Today, LucasArts only writes Star Wars games, and Sierra has become a game brand, the studio having closed down.

If I want to play Sam & Max or Monkey Island today, I can't buy it from the Lucas store. If I want to play Space Quest 5, I can't go to Vivendi Universal and ask them for the game.

The only way I'm able to play the LucasArts games, is to grab my CD, and use ScummVM or DOSbox to play them. As these games were not written for modern PC's, LucasArts doesn't sell them anymore - so they don't have to support the users the games are protected against abandonware downloads. With Simon the sorcerer games, it's different, because Adventure Soft still sells the CD's from their store, and they even released XP-compatible binaries of their first two games.
Sierra games? Well just the same, I fire up the CD and play them with Dosbox or Sarien or something else... as VUG doesn't have the games anymore. The sierra games are not abandonware-protected, and there are also a few remakes of the early king's quests, but that's about it.

As I had hours of fun playing those games, I'm sure my kids will like them as well, and that it will help them learning english (as long as they don't use the swordfighting insults with their english teacher :P).

So, if a game is distributed online only, how can I ensure that I will still be able to play this game in front of my kids in a few years, if I'm not able to authenticate the game?

[Udvarnoky]

Why wouldn't you be able to re-activate it?

[ClementXVII]

Who knows if the activation server will still be running in 10 years? If the Bone game will still be playable on whatever operating system will be the default one in 10 years!

ScummVM or Dosbox can only emulate games because these games do not rely on authentication either on a central server, or via the star-force way. If you know that distributors have to release a patch for every star-force protected game to make it work on Windows x64, because the encryption isn't compatible by default, you can easily guess that they won't necessarily write a patch for every star-force protected game that went out!

[Udvarnoky]

If the Bone game will still be playable on whatever operating system will be the default one in 10 years!


Uh, who knows that about any game? Why are we talking about its potential compatibility with a fan-made emulator a decade down the line? How did SCUMMVM even enter the discussion?

As for the activation question, I'm sure Telltale will alllow it to be activated for as long as they exist.

[jp-30]

Ta-daa! (http://www.telltalegames.com/forum/viewthread?thread=136#2271)

From Telltale's Kevin Molander;
Should we go out of business (thanks for the vote of confidence!), a patched version of the game will be made available to registered owners

And that clears that up... :D

[Diduz]

Ahem...you mean Kevin Bruner...or Troy Molander. ;)

[jp-30]

No, no. Didn't you hear, the two of them crossed the blue line, and found a strange chamber in a dusty corner of an uncharted corrodor...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/jaepee/f1.jpg

[Diduz]

ROTFL!!!! :D :D :D

[Alucard]

I don't get this. From looking at the first episode of bone we cut out the middle men in terms of box production,publisher, retailer etc but yet we pay MORE for a game then we would at a retail store

[jp-30]

Well, for me, US$20 is about a quarter of what I'd be paying at a retail store for a boxed game.

[GrimDanfango]

Consider this - how many boxes can you realistically fit into the "PC Games" section of your local Electronics Boutique? - Now - consider how many games EA, Ubisoft, and Vivendi have turned out in the last year...

We're running out of space already - and those guys *will* get priority, because they can afford to *buy* it...

Add a few more games, and a little-known adventure game being sold for $20 isn't going to stay on the shelf for longer than a month... barely anyone would buy it, and it would disappear into oblivion... the company would go down the pan... and you're back to playing Need for Speed.


- I *do* think $20 is too much for Telltale's tentative first step into the entirely unexplored realm of episode-based digital-distribution.

They really need to use this first twelve months building a die-hard fan-base... not starting off by alienating some of their existing supporters with the prospect of paying potentially $60 on 8-15 hours of gameplay, assuming this episode is indicative of future ones.


Digital distribution = good
- this game probably wouldn't even have been *made* without it.
Price = questionable
- and questionable is bad - they really don't want to be instilling doubt in the minds of already wary customers - a lot of people still have this idea in their heads that a physical disc is somehow more worthy of their money than simply the data it contains. Giving people a reason not to test the water is a bad idea.

[Access]

It's foolish to doubt online distribution for niche genres.

With few exceptions, the only way to gain a profit using the existing model is the first three shelves of Electronic Boutique, and if your title isnt a huge phenomenal success your game only stays on the shelf for barly 1 week.

Adventure games dont have the pull that Halo or Doom does, even with a high profile license like Sam and Max. Hell, even Revolution Studios found it difficult with Broken Sword III.

Adventure games are a niche genre at best and a dead genre at worst. Only 1 in 10 mainstream triple A titles make a profit, ie more people are losing money than making it. The current model is broken and unless your Square, Blizzard, Microsoft, EA, Valve etc then your powerless.

Online distribution gives independant developers a sustainable and profitable platform, and in the end would you prefer no adventure games at all or high quality independantly produced adventure games via online distribution?

Your call, I mean no one gets tired of FPS and RTS right?