View Full Version : The puzzel lvl of the new game
BlueBone
05/18/2006, 07:27 pm
how hard are the puzzels going to be in the new game... like Sam and Max Hits the Road or like the Bone games???
I think the Bone games puzzels were way to easy..
i would like something like the old game...
how hard are the puzzels going to be in the new game... like Sam and Max Hits the Road or like the Bone games???
I think the Bone games puzzels were way to easy..
i would like something like the old game...
The puzzles in Sam & Max are definitely targeted at "seasoned adventurers" more than the ones from the Bone games, but things aren't going to get so obtuse as to be completely ridiculous. No using a monkey to turn a spigot to shut off a waterfall.
Cheeseness
05/18/2006, 07:51 pm
The puzzles in Sam & Max are definitely targeted at "seasoned adventurers" more than the ones from the Bone games, but things aren't going to get so obtuse as to be completely ridiculous. No using a monkey to turn a spigot to shut off a waterfall.
What about using a banana on a metronome to hypnotise said monkey?
Personally I get a real kick out of that sort of zany obtuse stuff, and I'm hoping that the puzzles in this game are going to require enough out if the box thinking that it's impossible to complete in a single sitting (without help of course).
(finishing a game in a single sitting really makes me feel like I've wasted my time and effort)
Lazerus
05/18/2006, 09:51 pm
The puzzles in Sam & Max are definitely targeted at "seasoned adventurers" more than the ones from the Bone games, but things aren't going to get so obtuse as to be completely ridiculous. No using a monkey to turn a spigot to shut off a waterfall.
Aren't obtuse puzzles with comedic effects part of the Sam & Max ethos?
Part of their charm is how off the wall they are and the fact that they do things in a way noone in their right mind would attempt.
bburky
05/19/2006, 03:02 am
Ha, I just remembered the puzzle in Hit the Road where you swap the toupee with an eggplant. I don't know about you all, but if that's not "so obtuse as to be completely ridiculous" I don't know what is. Maybe swimming in a large fiberglass fish.
TheGreyMatter
05/19/2006, 10:24 am
What about using a banana on a metronome to hypnotise said monkey?
that actually not such a bad idea for a puzzle...
CousinSven
05/19/2006, 11:33 am
If the solution to a lot of puzzles has something to do with Max and excessive violence, I'm happy.
Haggis
05/19/2006, 12:40 pm
If the solution to a lot of puzzles has something to do with Max and excessive violence, I'm happy.
Hey, yeah, can you guys make a Sam & Max FPS while you're at it? :D
Algotsson
05/19/2006, 04:43 pm
HUGE SPOILER WARNING FOR THIS THREAD PLEASE!!
Aren't obtuse puzzles with comedic effects part of the Sam & Max ethos?
Part of their charm is how off the wall they are and the fact that they do things in a way noone in their right mind would attempt.
There's a big difference between pushing a bunch of cultists into a volcano with their own human sacrifice lashing pole and coming up with using a monkey to turn off a waterfall. More of the former, less of the latter.
mikdog
05/19/2006, 05:35 pm
By carefully analysing the Desoto in the trailer, I wouldn't be surprised if there's a driving level in the game. That car's wheels move with the steering wheel and the car obeys; it bumps and grinds and sways according to its velocity - that's a helluva lot of work to put into a trailer and not use in the game.
HUGE SPOILER WARNING FOR THIS THREAD PLEASE!!
The puzzle examples in this thread are all from Sam & Max Hit the Road (released in 1993) and Monkey Island 2 (released in 1991) - if those are still considered spoilers the world we live in is scarier than I thought.
Heatherlee
05/19/2006, 08:32 pm
HELLOOO-OOO Jake!
Not everyone has played Monkey Island 2 or Hit the Road yet (*cough* Emily). So show a little sensitivity, huh?
Emily
05/19/2006, 09:52 pm
*sigh*
I'm never going to live this down. :(
Algotsson
05/19/2006, 10:13 pm
HUGE SPOILER WARNING FOR THIS THREAD PLEASE!!
The puzzle examples in this thread are all from Sam & Max Hit the Road (released in 1993) and Monkey Island 2 (released in 1991) - if those are still considered spoilers the world we live in is scarier than I thought.
But come one. You even have people at your own company who are struggling with Hit the Road. Don't you understand that half of the fun in adventure games is to figure things out on your own?
I hate spoilers. All of them. Nothing can justify an unmarked spoiler thread.
There are plenty of old adventure games that I am planning to play, that I missed because I was to young. DOTT, Discworld, Full Throttle etc. Don't you dare spoiling them for me just because you think they are obsolete.
artwking
05/19/2006, 10:24 pm
I would think that the title of the thread would give you an indication that, in order to talk about new puzzles, you have to talk about old puzzles as a means of description/comparison.
ShadowKunakari
05/19/2006, 10:29 pm
There are plenty of old adventure games that I am planning to play, that I missed because I was to young. DOTT, Discworld, Full Throttle etc. Don't you dare spoiling them for me just because you think they are obsolete.
amen to that.
Linque
05/19/2006, 10:34 pm
There are plenty of old adventure games that I am planning to play, that I missed because I was to young. DOTT, Discworld, Full Throttle etc. Don't you dare spoiling them for me just because you think they are obsolete.
Wow, what are you doing here then? If you've got those three games to play and more, you won't need anything else for a while. Discworld and Full Throttle aren't really that long, but DoTT'll have you playing for ages. If I recall correct.
Lazerus
05/19/2006, 11:26 pm
Oh yeah and Discworld 1/2 are perfect examples of fiendishly hard puzzle solving. Im the only person I know to have completed them without looking up a single puzzle (thats not to say I never got stuck however). I suppose that is why any game that doesnt at least have a downright fiendish level of difficulty is bound to disappoint me. Any adventure game where you are NEVER unsure of what to do and have to come back and look at the puzzle from another angle just isnt worth playing, or not playing as the case all to often is.
I want a game not a point and click talking picture book.
mikdog
05/20/2006, 12:39 am
I want a game not a point and click talking picture book.
What's the difference?
ShadowKunakari
05/20/2006, 12:50 am
ba-dum *chinnge*
HieroHero
05/20/2006, 12:52 am
Yeah I love being stuck on a puzzle..having to walk away..take a break from the game..and then while you are doin somethin else..an idea hits you..so you rush back and see if it works.. I don't think I've had to do that while playing a game since grim fandango.. :p
ShadowKunakari
05/20/2006, 02:03 am
Yeah i did that once. I was in the shower and it hit me! So i ran over to the computer *in a towel* and put in the game and I tried it. And it worked. Yay!
Cheeseness
05/20/2006, 02:57 am
*sigh*
I'm never going to live this down. :(
Don't dispair!
Those games still exist, are more than playable, and offer a very rewarding sense of gratification once completed.
If you get the chance, they're well worth looking into (as I'm sure other people have already told you)
:)
CousinSven
05/20/2006, 11:03 am
Oh yeah and Discworld 1/2 are perfect examples of fiendishly hard puzzle solving. I want a game not a point and click talking picture book.
There -is- quite a big grey area between 'fiendishly hard puzzles' and 'talking picture book', you know.
mikdog
05/20/2006, 11:09 am
Do it; get them off eBay or something.
I think SCUMVMM or whatever it's called allows you to play the older Lucasarts adventure games on Windows XP
Algotsson
05/20/2006, 11:50 am
There are plenty of old adventure games that I am planning to play, that I missed because I was to young. DOTT, Discworld, Full Throttle etc. Don't you dare spoiling them for me just because you think they are obsolete.
Wow, what are you doing here then? If you've got those three games to play and more, you won't need anything else for a while. Discworld and Full Throttle aren't really that long, but DoTT'll have you playing for ages. If I recall correct.
I'm here because I am a huge fan of adventure games, and want the genre to start living again.
But can't you just put a "spoilers inside" on threads like these? I hate the arrogance of people who think it's their right to spoil things for other people.
mikdog
05/20/2006, 12:51 pm
But can't you just put a "spoilers inside" on threads like these? I hate the arrogance of people who think it's their right to spoil things for other people.
Fair enough. Oh, and at the end of the game giant martians come down from outer space and zap everyone with their ray-guns, then the whole world blows up.
(I make a joke)
Emily
05/20/2006, 04:25 pm
I have the games. I'm playing Sam & Max with ScummVM right now.
Just don't have enough hours in the day...
jp-30
05/20/2006, 09:46 pm
Do it at work and call it 'research'.
mikdog
05/20/2006, 10:59 pm
My thoughts exactly.
Lazerus
05/21/2006, 02:28 am
Yeah I love being stuck on a puzzle..having to walk away..take a break from the game..and then while you are doin somethin else..an idea hits you..so you rush back and see if it works.. I don't think I've had to do that while playing a game since grim fandango.. :p
Yeah thats why that game was pure unadulterated fried gold.
"Just a drop'll do ya!"
mikdog
05/21/2006, 12:28 pm
I don't think I've ever finished an adventure game without referring to the walkthrough at least half the game.
Pvt._Public
05/24/2006, 10:18 am
I tend to have a walkthrough nearby just in case of any puzzles which leave me stuck for more than an hour. Most of the time I simply rant and rave for 15 minutes while swearing at the filthy impossible cheating game before leaving it for another 15 minutes then rushing back after getting an idea while making a sandwich or something. But sometimes you get games where you miss an item because it is carefully hidden in amongst a huge pile of similar objects and is about 3 pixels high. *Cough* Runaway */Cough*.
That said, I managed to get through all of the old SCUMM games without consulting a walkthrough 'cept for The Dig and Day of the Tentacle. Just took me a while. But that's cool. Harder puzzles means more time spent clicking on everything and really exploring the game. Instead of clicking three places in one room and missing out on a whole lot of cool stuff. And this is Sam and Max. There's bound to be a whole lot of laughs to be had simply by listening to whatever Sam has to say about a semingly innocent sock stuck on a pole (or something similar. I'm guessing what'll be in the game. Or am I?).
No using a monkey to turn a spigot to shut off a waterfall.
*twitch*
Of all the puzzles in all the games over all the years... Thats the one thats still burned in my mind with unfettered rage.
Curse you monkey, curse you.
CousinSven
05/26/2006, 06:20 pm
Weird. I didn't know at the time what the English word for that particular tool was. When I learned that it was a 'monkey wrench', I knew what to do instantly.
No, I think the most baffling puzzle that had me stumped for weeks was "If this is 2... and this is 5... then what's this?"
Alucard
05/26/2006, 07:30 pm
I enjoy hard puzzles like that. Sure there are times when you get annoyed but there is so much more satisfaction when you figure it out. I can remember being stuck in monkey island II a few times but the game is probably in my top 3 adventure games of all time.
cp31734
05/26/2006, 09:03 pm
Yeah, puzzles in Monkey 2, like the fingers, or the spitting contest. The first time I played through the game I got through them, eventually, just by keeping trying at them until I did it. It was only later that I realised there was a method in the madness.
Some time later, after finding out from a walkthrough how to win the spitting contest properly, I was at Elaine's party, and realised two of the people there give away a massive clue how to do it.
For some reason I look back at puzzles like that fondly, and remember how clever they were, rather than curse how difficult they were to solve.
Someties you can admire a puzzle for how clever it was, and how much sense it made when you understood it. Even if you couldn't solve it yourself.
Yeah, overall MI2 was a really clever game.
See I don't think of it as 'clever' as contextually clever. I see those as 'Look at how clever I am as a designer'.
Sort of the designers way of showing you the player how smart they are.
It's a trap designers fall in and one you have to try really hard to avoid. When you're putting some sort of puzzle into a game you really need to stop and think about your audience.
Now that has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. It has to do with being obscure. Sort of like conversing with someone that insists on making obscure literary quotes from books that they know no one has read. They do it because if no one gets it they feel like it makes them smarter.
You can make a puzzle 'clever' and difficult and not make it obscure. Trail it with enough clues so that someone who doesn't get it will eventually figure it out, and someone thats thinking more along your lines will recognize sooner.
mikdog
05/26/2006, 10:20 pm
Yup. Like the RASP in Sam & Max: Hit the Road. I had never heard of a RASP before. RASP? What is that?!
Anyway, I like a puzzle that if I DON'T figure it out immediately, the game provides enough pointers to get me there. Like if I'm really TRYING to figure it out, there should be something somewhere to point me in the right direction.
It's when the puzzle completely loses track with what I'm thinking that I get despondent and stop playing. I sometimes just don't get the bigger picture. When I see the solution, sometimes I think 'Okay, now how the hell was I supposed to think of that?' If, by some fluke, I DO use MAX with the dimly-lit 'TUNNEL OF LOVE'S' electrical box, I feel like a real genius...but these moments are few and far between. I only go forward to reveal more cool animations of speeches of backgrounds or clickable things or maybe even story. For HIT THE ROAD I just really wanted to see the MAX put his hand inside the cat and pull out a note, I wanted to see THE WHEEL OF TRAGEDY IN ACTION, I wanted to see MAX bounce on TRIXIE'S bed, and I wanted to see THE WORLD'S LARGEST BALL OF TWINE, and I wanted to see the one shot where SAM is holding MAX over the edge of the BALL OF TWINE restaurant. I bought the game for that. I'm sure the marketers didn;t expect those to be big selling points, but hey. Oh, and the screenshot of GATOR GOLD on the box...I loved that. And the BOX ART.
CousinSven
05/29/2006, 07:32 am
See I don't think of it as 'clever' as contextually clever. I see those as 'Look at how clever I am as a designer'.
Sort of the designers way of showing you the player how smart they are.
I disagree. Bizarre though as the MI2 puzzles were, there was definitely a method to them, and there were many clues hidden in dialogue that told you how to do it. You just had to recognize them as clues and then apply them to what you were stumped on, which is part of any good adventure game.
On the topic of the S&M episodes... I suggest that Telltale look at, for instance, Paradise, or Keepsake, for suggestions on what not to do.
See I don't think of it as 'clever' as contextually clever. I see those as 'Look at how clever I am as a designer'.
Sort of the designers way of showing you the player how smart they are.
I disagree. Bizarre though as the MI2 puzzles were, there was definitely a method to them, and there were many clues hidden in dialogue that told you how to do it. You just had to recognize them as clues and then apply them to what you were stumped on, which is part of any good adventure game.
On the topic of the S&M episodes... I suggest that Telltale look at, for instance, Paradise, or Keepsake, for suggestions on what not to do.
Its not meant to be a totalitarian commentary on the series as a whole, just a reference to a few specific puzzles. Not every puzzle in that game was laid out well (nor any other game usually).
If the player has to resort to a FAQ and still manages to say "Man, I *never* would have gotten that on my own" then its usually one of the puzzles I was talking about.
Lazerus
06/09/2006, 01:24 am
Its not meant to be a totalitarian commentary on the series as a whole, just a reference to a few specific puzzles. Not every puzzle in that game was laid out well (nor any other game usually).
If the player has to resort to a FAQ and still manages to say "Man, I *never* would have gotten that on my own" then its usually one of the puzzles I was talking about.
Unfortunatly you have in me someone who has completed every single Adventure game ive ever played without a guide. Even Discworld, which had puzzles that made your brain melt due to their frank bizzareness.
But then as an avid Discworld reader I understood the method behind the madness.
Dave Grossman
06/12/2006, 01:09 am
These days one of the yardsticks I use to evaluate a puzzle I'm working on is the "what will the user's response be when she gives up and gets the solution from someone else?" factor.
"Oh, I get it! I should have thought of that!" = good puzzle
"How was I ever supposed to think of that?" = not so good puzzle
Yes, and that monkey wrench puzzle is one of the reasons I try not to ever make puzzles dependent on any kind of a play on words....
jp-30
06/12/2006, 02:23 am
While I can't think of any old examples off the top of my head, one of my favourite things in the old LEC adventures (and I do recall it happening beautifully in Cow Race with the smoking straw & the bee) is when confronted with a puzzle and you think "all too easy", and you're right. The designer is one step ahead of you and knew you'd try the obvious and so has made the puzzle more elaborate than you'd first thought.
Love those ones!
HieroHero
06/12/2006, 06:52 am
haha i loved how I gave the burning straw to the bee and he took it.. any puzzle where you have to think things through I love
Haggis
06/12/2006, 10:22 am
haha i loved how I gave the burning straw to the bee and he took it.. any puzzle where you have to think things through I love
Yeah, that was great. I was like, okay, that's easy... only to find out that it wasn't so easy after all. Moments like those are what makes an adventure game a lot more fun.
Junkface
06/12/2006, 10:44 am
I actually expected it not to work but decided to try anyway to see if there'd be any reaction. And it was great... even if it was taken straight from the comic. The execution was absolutely perfect though, particularly the timing. Possibly my favourite moment in The Great Cow Race.
Linque
06/13/2006, 12:02 pm
Possibly my favourite moment in The Great Cow Race.
Likewise.
mikdog
06/13/2006, 08:07 pm
Hmm. By far my favourite parts in the old LEC games were the character animations and cool backgrounds and locations. At that time, I actually didn't give a hoot about the story or anything. In fact, I hated the puzzles, because they were only a means of preventing me seeing further backgrounds or other cool animations. The screenshots on the box were done nicely, and the box art was nifty. This is why I bought those games. In fact, I didn't enjoy the puzzle aspects of Sam & Max: Hit the Road at all. I just wanted to see the locations and the animation that were in the demo.
Damn marketing machine.
These days one of the yardsticks I use to evaluate a puzzle I'm working on is the "what will the user's response be when she gives up and gets the solution from someone else?" factor.
"Oh, I get it! I should have thought of that!" = good puzzle
"How was I ever supposed to think of that?" = not so good puzzle
Yes, and that monkey wrench puzzle is one of the reasons I try not to ever make puzzles dependent on any kind of a play on words....
Yay!
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