Control feedback?

[[TTG] Yare]

Hello everyone!

I'm the engineer responsible for the controls. After you folks play through the demo, I'd like to hear your initial impressions and nitpicks about the control scheme. Then I'd like to hear from you again after you've played through a full episode or two.

Not sure if a readme for controls shipped with the demo, but here's some stuff anyway:


If the inventory is closed, mouse wheel will cycle through your inventory items.
If the inventory is open, and you have a bunch of inventory items, mouse wheel will scroll the inventory.
The game can be played entirely with the keyboard.
Q and E cycle through selectable items on screen.
Hold Tab to make all the selectable items on screen stand out.
Shift opens your inventory.
Space activates items.
Control skips dialog and backs out of closeups.


And uhhh... there's probably other stuff I'll post when I remember. We mapped keys everywhere to try and give you guys as many options as possible.

[LittleBuddy]

I thought the control system was pretty intuitive, within a few minutes of playing around I was able to complete the demo without having to think "Ok, how do I do this again?". The only problem I found was that sometimes the cycling through selectable items was not immediate but there was a second or so delay. I think that's due to selecting higher visual settings than I should have so I'll try again :P Other than that I can't think of anything else...

EDIT: I played with the Xbox 360 controller, gotta try the keyboard too.

[Jennifer]

I thought the keyboard layout worked just fine. It is a bit weird after using all of Telltale's other games just with the mouse, but after a few times of trying to move Wallace with the mouse and having nothing happen, I got used to the setup.

I'd like to try a gamepad with it, but the demo didn't seem to recognize my Saitek Rumble Force gamepad.

[Shazyzang]

I used my Logitech gamepad (basically the same as PS2) and it was good enough after I got used to it. I think I'd prefer the mouse only, though.

[MaxFan]

My initial impression is that I will need to get used to using wasd for movement, I still keep trying to click to move out of habit. I like the fact that I can bring up inventory with the keyboard.

[matan]

I thought the controls were pretty nice. I jused the keyboard+mouse combo - didn't know you could play using just the keyboard. Is that the recommended scheme?

I have one complain though - I think the behaviour is weird when the camera changes angle - sometimes I found that initially the controls behave strange in the first second after the camera change (like left would suddenly be down etc.). Did this happen to anyone else?

[LuigiHann]

I liked the controls mostly, although I would like a mouse sensitivity option, since the cursor felt a little floaty. I also found myself trying to click to move instinctively.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

here's my two cents:
it was easy to get used to the controls, sometimes I felt a bit disoriented as Wallace moved in an unexpected direction, but it may be because I'm too used to playing shooters on the arrow keys. it's definitely worse when Wallace moves so far to the edge of the screen that he isn't visible - though it's a camera change issue in itself.

I am baffled by one thing, though. there are two scenes in the demo - one is the walking-around-adventuring type, and the other is hi-adrenaline action. now, you're direct controlling Wallace in the first scene, where point-and-click would be perfectly adequate, and there's no direct control for Gromit in the second, where it could amplify the heat of the action. :confused:

all in all, it seems to be a good control scheme, the players will need a bit of time to settle in it, and I also think there'll be much polishing going into it during the series.

[[TTG] Yare]

I thought the controls were pretty nice. I jused the keyboard+mouse combo - didn't know you could play using just the keyboard. Is that the recommended scheme?

I think that the recommended scheme is whatever the tutorial advises you to do. All of the other control schemes are there as sort of "power user" options. Play however it feels comfortable. :)

I have one complain though - I think the behaviour is weird when the camera changes angle - sometimes I found that initially the controls behave strange in the first second after the camera change (like left would suddenly be down etc.). Did this happen to anyone else?

This is an interesting artifact from the way we handle camera relative movement. If you cross from one camera to another, movement is still relative to the old camera until you stop moving.

[Armakuni]

Downloaded the demo to try it out, didn't like the controls. I'm sure they're good for this kind of control scheme but to be perfectly blunt, I'd *much* prefer regular point and click controls.

[Rather Dashing]

Honestly, it's nowhere near as bad as I thought it could be.

BUT.

I honestly felt it was a point-and-click game that seemed to unnecessarily demand that you use the keyboard for movement. Really, it just kind of feels unnatural for me to use the keyboard(I tried moving Wallace with the mouse several times). It felt most natural to me when I was playing as Gromit and his movement was limited to animations that played when I selected things(and, as such, used the mouse for everything).

Using the keyboard to open up the inventory was nice.

Using Tab to show all selectable items is alright. It's nice to have everything you can use laid out for you so that it's not a pixel-hunt game. It's something I'll use when I get stuck though, since I like to mess around and see what I can mess with when I first enter a room in an adventure game. I messed with so many objects in Wallace's garden that obviously correlate to other puzzles, and it took me way longer than it should have to achieve that rather simple objective because I was trying to get a million other things to achieve my goal for me. For example:

"Where's that cricket thing? Can I substitute something for it? Oh, perhaps the pinwheel....hey! That's neat. What does this pinwheel do? Oh! Do they do anything different? Does one swing one way? Oh, hey! There's a robot in there! What am I supposed to do with that? I wish I had some items to mess with...."

Anyway, I'm getting off the topic of the controls.

Basically? Mouse control for movement would have been nice, and it seems like it would have worked. Not even as the default, but tucked away in the Settings menu. Because unless there's something I haven't seen in the demo(which is quite likely!), I don't see a reason that Wallace CAN'T be moved by the mouse.

EDIT:

Oh! Another thing I wanted to mention.

I find it EXTREMELY odd that it only tells you what you're interacting with when you are combining items. For example, if you try to combine the crank with the buttons, it'll tell you what they do. But otherwise, you're just gonna press them to figure it out. I don't really see a reason that you can't identify items when you just highlight them with the cursor as well?

[[TTG] Yare]

Downloaded the demo to try it out, didn't like the controls. I'm sure they're good for this kind of control scheme but to be perfectly blunt, I'd *much* prefer regular point and click controls.

I'm sorry to hear that. We would have liked to provide a point-and-click option, but it just didn't work with the more cinematic framing of some of the game's areas. I hope you'll understand and give the game a fair shake for what it is.

[Tjibbbe]

I can see a couple of problems with pure mouse-control. For instance, when talking to your neighbour (name escapes me, I didn't listen to every conversation, I want to do that in the actual game), you can't see Wallace's feet or the ground, so leaving that camera shot would be difficult. Of course, you could solve this by a simple 'right click to leave the scene' like used in previous episodes, but I suspect there will be other areas where you won't see the ground, or only part of the ground.

I thought about it a bit, and I think I do prefer 100% mouse control for the pc. It's a great adaption for the 360, and I can't think of a better control system for a console adventure of this kind, but on pc, it made walking around and interacting with items harder then it should be. But I do like the movie-like camera angles, an extremely nice chance from what we're used to. I wouldn't want to lose that. It's a difficult issue!

[ruppy99]

i thought control system was very good but i woud lik 2 things fixed before main release:

Mouse was very unresponsive . kept dragging behind where it was suppose to be
when you were gromit on top of the ladder i found it very hard to click on wallace and not poke the queen bee


Other than those im very much looking foward to the full release and have the games pre ordered

[The Burninator]

Prefer the old controls, myself.

[Lapino]

I thought the controls were very intuitive, after just a couple of minutes I was right into it. BUT there's one big annoyance for me: I can't configure the keys. And since I live in Belgium where our keyboard layout is azerty instead of qwerty, I can't navigate using the WASD scheme. Well, I could of course, but the keys aren't in a good layout to do that, ZQSD would be the working equivalent for me. Now I know I could use the arrow keys (as I did while playing the demo), but due to the way my keyboard and mouse are positioned on my desktop, this is not a really comfortable way of playing. But that's my only problem, the rest is quite nice.

[[TTG] Yare]

I can't navigate using the WASD scheme.

We're looking into a solution for non-QWERTY keyboard layouts. If you find arrow keys/mouse uncomfortable, you could try playing with just the keyboard. There's a WASD cluster of bound keys, a cluster around the arrow keys, and a cluster on the numpad.

I hope you find something that works comfortably for you while we look into this issue.

[Rather Dashing]

Yare;118221']We're looking into a solution for non-QWERTY keyboard layouts. If you find arrow keys/mouse uncomfortable, you could try playing with just the keyboard. There's a WASD cluster of bound keys, a cluster around the arrow keys, and a cluster on the numpad.

I hope you find something that works comfortably for you while we look into this issue.

Is there any particular reason you can't just let us map the controls to the keys ourselves? Wouldn't that be the best solution for non-standard keyboard layouts or custom control schemes?

[jp-30]

I thought the keyboard-mouse scheme was very intuitive, and I'm happy using it. Much nicer control than Grim Fandango/Monkey Island 4.

I have a thrustmaster (firestorm dual analog 3 gamepad) too, so decided to seee if it would work. I was hoping 'generic' gamepads would be supported, even if not explicitly tested & listed, but the game's not seeing it at all, unfortunately.

[Will]

i thought control system was very good but i woud lik 2 things fixed before main release:

Mouse was very unresponsive . kept dragging behind where it was suppose to be
when you were gromit on top of the ladder i found it very hard to click on wallace and not poke the queen bee


Other than those im very much looking foward to the full release and have the games pre ordered

If your mouse feels unresponsive, it is most likely because you have your graphics settings up a bit too high. If you turn them down a bit, you will find that the mouse becomes much more responsive.

[[TTG] Yare]

Is there any particular reason you can't just let us map the controls to the keys ourselves?

We didn't have the resources to create a nice keymapping system for this project.

[Chris1]

Yare;118233']We didn't have the resources to create a nice keymapping system for this project.

How about giving us an Autohotkey script along with the game?

I thought the keyboard layout worked just fine. It is a bit weird after using all of Telltale's other games just with the mouse, but after a few times of trying to move Wallace with the mouse and having nothing happen, I got used to the setup.

I'd like to try a gamepad with it, but the demo didn't seem to recognize my Saitek Rumble Force gamepad.

I tried to get a 360 pad working with it as well, but no joy. Which was odd because I thought they were going to be offically supported.
Did you guys disabled the gamepad support in the demo so you could get more feedback on the mouse and keyboard controls? Or is there something special I need to do in order to play with it?

[ruppy99]

graphics setting is at 1 game runs really smoothly other than mouse

[Emily]

I tried to get a 360 pad working with it as well, but no joy. Which was odd because I thought they were going to be offically supported. Did you guys disabled the gamepad support in the demo so you could get more feedback on the mouse and keyboard controls? Or is there something special I need to do in order to play with it?

Wired Xbox 360 controllers and Logitech gamepads should work in the ddemo. I don't think we've tested other brands. Did you have the 360 controller plugged in before launching the demo?

[Guybrush Threepwood]

For people with gamepad problems, you should take look into a program called Pinnacle Game Profiler (http://www.pinnaclegameprofiler.com/). It works wonders for those old (and new!) games that don't support pads correctly or at all.

[Jake]

For what it's worth, try to be sure your gamepad is plugged in before you launch the game. It'll probably the odds of it working.

[[TTG] Yare]

I tried to get a 360 pad working with it as well, but no joy.

Don't quote me on this, but I believe that Windows does not recognize wireless Xbox 360 controllers -only wired ones.

[Rather Dashing]

Yare;118246']Don't quote me on this, but I believe that Windows does not recognize wireless Xbox 360 controllers -only wired ones.
There's a dongle that lets Windows PCs recognize wireless 360 controllers. That's what I use for a gamepad. Amazon has one here (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-Wireless-Gaming-Receiver-Windows-Pc/dp/B000HZFCT2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1237246393&sr=8-5). It's cheaper than getting a new gamepad, and it's what I have.

[deadlinejon]

i have no gripe with the keyboard controls. but i still need to try the gamepad.

[Ninja]

I liked the new WASD controls, however they are a huge problem. When you move Wallace outside, the camera remaps the controls constantly. A is sometimes down, and once you move to a certain point it become up.

It's very confusing.

There's a dongle that lets Windows PCs recognize wireless 360 controllers. That's what I use for a gamepad. Amazon has one here (http://www.amazon.com/Xbox-Wireless-Gaming-Receiver-Windows-Pc/dp/B000HZFCT2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1237246393&sr=8-5). It's cheaper than getting a new gamepad, and it's what I have.

I have one too

[LuigiHann]

I have the same wireless dongle thing for my 360 controller. I couldn't get it working with your game, but at the same time I'm not convinced the controller was working at all.

[Will]

Only wired remotes work. Wireless xbox controllers use a whole different driver set.

[Udvarnoky]

I honestly felt it was a point-and-click game that seemed to unnecessarily demand that you use the keyboard for movement.

Although I had no problems with the controls, and I'm sure it'll work even better when I plug in my gamepad, that's pretty much the impression I got as well.

[MaxFan]

If your mouse feels unresponsive, it is most likely because you have your graphics settings up a bit too high. If you turn them down a bit, you will find that the mouse becomes much more responsive.

That's exactly the test I used to know when I'd turned the graphics to the correct level. When the mouse pointer moved responsively without skipping.

[Lachlan_is]

my major problem is that the controls are all over the shop, I wouldve been fine with just a point and click game, also, using the arrows is much harder when not from a straight angle, because as the angles change so do the controls, which is difficult

[Derwin]

I would have to agree with quite a few people on here and say that while the WASD and arrow key controls are usable, they are not preferable. Even half-way through playing the demo I leaned back and tried to move Wallace with the mouse alone... clicking on areas that in past games would have moved the character there. Instead, I had to sit back forward and use the mixed controls. I would love to sit back and use my wireless 360 gamepad, but apparently it is not currently supported (x-padder is always an option, but I would prefer support out of the box).

While we haven't seen all environments and framing, I do highly question the impossibility of mouse only controls. Keyboard controls are so far proving to be more of an inconvenience, and do not add immersion to the gameplay as I thought they might. Despite this, I am loving that you included the ability to cycle between inventory and selectable items. Such a system is almost better than an in-game help system.

[Dangerzone]

I concur with the "fully point and click" preference on controls. the only time when using the arrow keys is better is when you have sprawling landscapes that would be tedious to navigate at an interval of one screen length at a time... Holding the arrow key to continuously move is preferable in this case.

What you have here is a point and click interface thats controlled by arrow keys... It would have been better to just abandon the free roam aspect (there is not much to "roam" in each set anyways) and use the mouse to move Wallace around the room by clicking on sections of it (doing this would also change the POV at the same time)... While it would not be a "node based" control scheme per-se, it would eliminate most problems associated with BOTH control schemes.

This tactic would also introduce a "cinnematic" quality to the games... making them feel more like the shorts and movies. (as moving between the "nodes" could also trigger various animations and dynamic camera moves as well)

But, what do I know... ;)

[HaReL]

I loved the demo. It takes a little time to get used to the keyboard+mouse controls, but after that it's really nice.

I tried to play with my Logitech gamepad (ChillStream) but the demo didn't recognize it. why? I plugged in the gamepad before I launched the game.

[SunSailor]

Honestly, I loved the Sam and Max games and pre-ordered them blindly and I love the whole animation franchises, from W&G, over Shawn the Sheep, Chicken run and whatever. I thought, this would be the same with the W&G game, but as I figured out the controls, I decided NOT to buy it. Sorry, but the controls are pure crap. This is an adventure game and an adventure game without pure point and click controls doesn't work out at all. Haven't you guys learned something from the bad performance of Grim Fandango and MI IV? Or the later installments of Broken Sword? These controls may work on the console, but the regular adventure player on the pc doesn't even has a control pad. Do you really want to sacrifice this series on the pc for the sales on the x-box? I came over from www.adventure-treff.de, which is the leading adventure site here in germany, and there is pure horror about this ridiculous decision. Please, go into yourselves, and make this game, what it should be. A good aventure game.

[axelkothe]

I just tried it and I hated the controls. I may like them as soon as my gamepads are working with the game (right now, neither the wired xbox360 pad nor my thrustmaster pc pad are working, both plugged in before starting the game) - aren't they supposed to work?

When playing adventure games I like to lean back and enjoy the game, not hunching uncomfortable over the keyboard. Also my left hand gets tired and aches quickly when using the wasd-controls

At the moment I really regret that I preordered the season already...

[Diduz]

Please, go into yourselves, and make this game, what it should be. A good aventure game.

Come on, let's not over-react. :p
This is a pure and straight adventure game. If adventure games were defined by the control method, Grim Fandango wouldn't be an adventure game (and we all know it's one of the best).

[SunSailor]

So, why did Grim Fandango perform that bad? And Monkey Island IV? And the later Broken Sword games? This is no adventure control and it will never, ever prevail and that for very good reasons. I simply don't understand, why every adventure company needs to learn this the hard way. W&Gs controls are pure rubbish, someone started thinking without coming to a suitable end. Take a look at the places, where there are a few more items on the screen, there the game works well with the mouse only. As soon as there are a few less items there, you need to get back to the keyboard, change your sitting position. Yes, these controls are making the game unconformable in a very physic manner. And sorry, the lame excuse, why this way was chosen, is pure lame. Design follows function, here we have the opposite, showing very low craftmanship abilities regarding game design. Even if you stay withing the premises, it would have been easy to add a move to left/right cursor when reaching the screen borders, similar to every standard rts. Just give it a bit a thought and there's always a solution, but the way chosen here is simply crap. Don't you have honest test players in the house?

[Diduz]

So, why did Grim Fandango perform that bad? And Monkey Island IV? And the later Broken Sword games?

Are you sure that Grim and Monkey 4 performed "bad" because of the controls?
Broken Sword 3, which btw had REALLY bad controls (worse than W&G's), performed well enough to grant another sequel. BS4 had a point&click interface.
I agree with the fact that plain point 'n' click is the best way to control an adventure game, but I don't think that such a well-crafted game needs to be totally bashed just for that. Heck, I don't even bash BS3 as much as I should, considering I hated those controls.
Camera work is more important than controls in a not-totally-free 3D environment and I think the camera here works better than in the aforementioned games.

[Rather Dashing]

Honestly, the controls are more of a nuisance than something that ruin it as an adventure game. The writing is still good, puzzle designs should be interesting. The problem is that the controls are ANNOYING. How many people have said "Oh! When I plug/plugged in the gamepad, the demo will/does play great!" When your PC controls make people want to plug in a gamepad over using the default PC controls when they were fine with the PC controls before, there is fault with the PC control scheme.

We had one button(mouse click) that controlled everything for us in the S&M and Strong Bad games. We have now swapped this out with seven buttons(four arrow keys, both mouse buttons, and SHIFT) that achieve the same thing, but simply aren't as "natural" or comfortable.

I concede that I may have been a bit inclined to hate the controls from the outset. But honestly, I see something different here than I expected. And really, it's the Point and click interface I love, saddled with clunky keyboard controls.

[Abenteuer]

Hi!

being german and an user of adventure-treff.de myself, I´d like to apologize for SunSailors behavior. He has obviously no manners and is a bit too full of himself. Neither does he speak for adventure-treff.de nor is everyone there sharing his opinion.

That said, I think the controls work fairly well but would also prefer a no-keyboard-solution.

[Armakuni]

Adventure games is one of the last genres I can actually play, because of this neurological damage in my fingers - would be a shame for me if Telltale started using keyboard controls for several games now. I simply cannot play games with these kinds of controls, it hurts too much.

This is obviously a purely selfish reason to dislike it, but even if it wasn't for that - I always much preferred point and click.

[SunSailor]

I think, it is obviouse clear, that the new controls aren't, let's say, optimal. Ok, let's face it, they purely suck, and that for very objective reasons:
* In "classic adventure controls", you need one input device - the mouse with two buttons. Decades of adventure games lived very good with this simplicity
* You only needed one hand
* You didn't need to remember control keys
The W&G approach doesn't add *anything* to controlling the game, but does that with more complexity, and that is, why it is bad in an objective way, it fails to honor the "form follows function"-paradigm. Why do we need so many more controls, if this all can already be achieved by a simple mouse and two mouse buttons? I think, the developers hit the second system syndrom or simply don't expect the greater sales on the pc. What we have here, doesn't follow any good experience with adventure controls in the last 20 years. The controls remind of a shooter, but there is a very big differenz. While a shooter keeps the players focus on the keyboard (WASD, changing weapon, execute buttons etc.), while the mouse connects directly between hand and eyes, the W&G controls force the player for a constant switch between both. You need to focus on WASD to reach the object and then change focus on the mouse to select it. That is, why it feels so bad for a noticeable amount of players.

[[TTG] Yare]

The W&G approach doesn't add *anything* to controlling the game

For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot. This restriction is not compatible with a property as cinematic as W&G, so we had to set point-and-click aside for this game and consider other control schemes.

[[TTG] Yare]

I may like them as soon as my gamepads are working with the game (right now, neither the wired xbox360 pad nor my thrustmaster pc pad are working, both plugged in before starting the game) - aren't they supposed to work?

Your wired Xbox 360 controller should work. I didn't write the controller support stuff, though. Try posting in the support forum.

[kabumm]

The controls may be inconvenient, so I was skeptical at first. But after actually trying the demo, I think that although it might not be optimal, it is acceptable. But I am used to WASD, I don't know about people who have never used that kind of control.

And just for the record:

I came over from www.adventure-treff.de, which is the leading adventure site here in germany, and there is pure horror about this ridiculous decision.

No, it is not. You are stating your own opinion (in a way which I still find inappropriate - it is your opinion and not the one and only truth) and nothing else - so don't use adventure-treff.de for your argument by indirectly stating that everyone else over there agrees with you. Thanks.

[Derwin]

Yare;118392']For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot. This restriction is not compatible with a property as cinematic as W&G, so we had to set point-and-click aside for this game and consider other control schemes.

While I agree that point and click limits framing, at least probably in the TT Tool, I do wonder if imposing those limits would have been better than implementing keyboard controls. In TT games, the scene choreographers have free reign in cut-scenes, but why does the framing have to be unlimited in gameplay segments requiring free roaming?

I must say thank you, however, for allowing the character to path-find to a clicked object across the room. It was times like this when my frustration subsided, as it returned to a more natural point and click interface.

*EDIT* Also, the ground doesn't always need to be in the shot. The only reason for it to need to be in the shot is if you do not hand script hot zones for movement. I realize this would take longer to implement, as each scene would need to be custom scripted, and I realize that this may not even be possible with the TT tool. But a slight isometric perspective should, in theory, be able to provide both the user and the program to determine where a click takes the character, without the ground being in frame.

[seagul]

I love the demo. The controlls are a bit unfamiliar to me, but it's ok. By the next episode it will become second nature to me. :D

[Freelance Poster]

I love the demo. The controlls are a bit unfamiliar to me, but it's ok. By the next episode it will become second nature to me. :D

I agree. The controls seemed strange at first, but I quickly got comfortable with them. I don't see a problem with them.

[[TTG] Yare]

*EDIT* Also, the ground doesn't always need to be in the shot. The only reason for it to need to be in the shot is if you do not hand script hot zones for movement.

You're right, of course. But the nature of episodic game development requires us to pick our battles. If we had to hand-script, tweak, and test the movement on a camera-by-camera basis, that work couldn't start until the art team was done framing all of the shots. It would also take a chunk from our limited pool of episode-specific programming time, which is usually spent on minigames and stuff like that.

Since we want to deliver as much "new game" as possible to you guys for your money, we strive to minimize the amount of time spent on episode-specific UI and control work.

[SunSailor]

Sorry, but that is non-sense, it would be easy to do a raycast to the walkable area and the selectable items, only. No need to do any extra skripting and even other games, like sam and max, would benefit from this. There is absolutely no need to quit the raycast because of obstacles. But sure, you have to do compromises, but we'll see, how this will affect the sales. I won't buy the game, even if I'm really sad about that, but my spare time is too valueable to spend it with uncomfortable control experiments, which already failed in the past - and that more than once.

[[TTG] Yare]

it would be easy to do a raycast to the walkable area and the selectable items, only

That's a good idea, but it comes with its own set of drawbacks.

If the ground is on the screen, we can cast a ray from a click and determine where it hit the ground. There is one correct solution.

If the ground is not on the screen, we have to cast a plane from where the user clicked, and see where it intersects the ground. The result of this is a line with infinite solutions. The user may have intended to walk far away from the camera, or near it, or anywhere in between. There's mathematically no way to tell.

I'm sorry that you find the controls unmanageable.

[Rather Dashing]

Yare, I really have to admire your no-nonsense, down-to-earth and simple explanations of the real limitations you face and the goals you are trying to achieve. While I may disagree with some decisions, I really can come to respect them when approached this way. You've obviously thought about it and worked hard to provide the best solution you could given the resources you had, and I can respect that.

It still doesn't feel "right" to me, of course, and I feel most natural with a Sam and Max control scheme. I have to question how much is gained as opposed to how much just doesn't feel right, but I do think I can "get it" from your perspective.

[Chris1]

Only wired remotes work.

Wow. That's quite a downer.

Any PC game I've ever played has support for any gamepad. Windows treats all gamepads as just an object after all; if the user moves the stick or presses a button then you get returned (x y or z) which axis has been moved or (1, 2, 3...) which button has been pressed.

I'm confused as to why the team has choose to try and detect which pad is being used and only allow certain ones.
Now I have to choose between using the keyboard and mouse, or taking the time to set up either an Autohotkey or a Xpadder script.

Given the many positive reactions to it in this thread, I'll probably use the keyboard and mouse setup.
As much as I'd like to use my pad - and I'm sure Autohotkey could get it working if I really wanted it - I feel that writing code to get hardware working is a task that should fall to the authors of the game, and not the player.



Oh, and by the way, don't read too much into my whining. I'll probably still enough the game either way. ;)

[[TTG] Yare]

While I may disagree with some decisions, I really can come to respect them when approached this way.

I appreciate it.

And thanks for taking the time to provide feedback on the controls.

[DaVince]

The movement controls are a little "wobbly": it's difficult to move around once the scene changes, due to the movement direction staying the same until you completely stop moving. I think things might work better if pressing down would ALWAYS mean that Wallace starts moving towards the camera.

Also, complete camera switches either don't work or kick in too late: I have to be too close to the edge of the screen before the next angle is viewed, and it's usually too sudden. A quick "swing" of the camera to the right angle once Wallace moves towards the edge would work better, I think.

Other than that the controls are great - No problems with the inventory (though I'd really like to access it by clicking the screen border too or something like that). R for inventory should also be mapped to tab I think. Q is quite useful for checking out stuff. :)

Will multiple actions on some items be possible? The right mouse button is still free and it'd be sweet if we could have at least 1 but sometimes more than 1 action on items. Shouldn't be too much extra explanation.

(Disclaimer: didn't read any of the other posts yet. I'm gonna do that now.)

[Rather Dashing]

Other than that the controls are great - No problems with the inventory (though I'd really like to access it by clicking the screen border too or something like that). R for inventory should also be mapped to tab I think. Q is quite useful for checking out stuff. :)

Huh? Tab is used to show all items that are selctable in a room. And the inventory is Shift? Am I misunderstanding something here?

[DaVince]

Sorry, didn't notice tab did anything.

Both shift and R are inventory. I use shift, myself.

[Harald B]

Some minor annoyances:

Tab doesn't do anything for me.
The mouse stays invisible (until moved) after each interaction.
The camera often moves a bit when you hover over hotspots, occasionally making you miss them again.

[Will]

Huh? Tab is used to show all items that are selctable in a room. And the inventory is Shift? Am I misunderstanding something here?

We have a LOT of different mappings scattered around the keyboard. For example, I play the game entirely with my right hand. The numpad has all 4 directions, 7 and 9 scroll through objects, and there are inventory, select, and skip buttons. I can do the whole leaning back playing the game with one hand, and don't even touch the mouse (by and large).

[LuigiHann]

I think things might work better if pressing down would ALWAYS mean that Wallace starts moving towards the camera.
Problem with that is there are situations where walking into a scene change almost completely reverses the camera angle, which can result in the annoyance of of suddenly walking off the screen you just walked onto. There were quite a few times that happened to me in Escape from Monkey Island and even Super Mario 64.

Telltale's solution to that may not be perfect, but I think it's a smart one.

[sock-fox]

I really didn't like it at first, it reminded me of Monkey Island 4, which I hated mostly for it's controls. But, after playing for a while, it grew on me. Using the mouse as well, you still don't have to walk right up to things to interact with them, which was what I was worried about. Loved the demo. Can't wait for more.

[[TTG] Yare]

Problem with that is there are situations where walking into a scene change almost completely reverses the camera angle, which can result in the annoyance of of suddenly walking off the screen you just walked onto.

Truth.

[Linque]

It's very positive to me that Wallace continues to move to the direction he was moving when entering a new scene.

I really enjoy the controls and the cinematic camera angles that come with it. Also, the tab highlight system is wonderfully executed. I also like the speed at which Wallace moves.

Very good work. I enjoy the controls and the interface more than those of the Sam & Max games.

[Derwin]

Yare;118410']
Since we want to deliver as much "new game" as possible to you guys for your money, we strive to minimize the amount of time spent on episode-specific UI and control work.

That's what I figured, and I agree on choosing the regular release schedule over scene-specific control work. This is one reason why I love TTG... you are all willing to have a calm and meaningful discussion about your work with the fans, and as such each episode and each game gets better and better.

Game is pre-ordered and I am excitedly waiting for the 24th!

[dannythefool]

Yare;118156']
If the inventory is closed, mouse wheel will cycle through your inventory items.
If the inventory is open, and you have a bunch of inventory items, mouse wheel will scroll the inventory.


This doesn't work very well with two-finger scrolling on a touch pad.


The game can be played entirely with the keyboard.


Would be better if it could also be played entirely with the mouse. Requiring the keyboard for walking makes it borderline unplayable for me.

[MaxFan]

Tab did nothing for me, as well.

[Jake]

If you're running at graphics quality 1-3 I don't think you'll be able to use the "reveal selectable objects" feature, for what it's worth. It uses a full screen effect, which is part of the graphics system only when on the higher quality modes.

[Hakobus]

I personally hated the controls. Mostly because I like to sit back on the sofa or in my chair when playing a slower tempo game (like adventure games) and don't like the fact that I need to reach for the keyboard every once in a while for completely arbitrary reasons. Why not pop the inventory up when I move the mouse to the right side of the screen? Why not implement character control with the mouse? Why not spend the extra effort to save effort from the end users? I mean, not everyone plays games hunched over their keyboard.

And hell, you'd think the biggest reason to implement mouse-only controls would be to make the game more accessible to people with disabilities. I mean, why throw that out the window for this archaic control scheme that benefits no-one?

The controls in the demo made the decision for me. I'll buy as soon as they're fixed, and if they're not, let's hope they won't be implemented into the next seasons of Sam & Max and Strong Bad.

[Lachlan_is]

As many of you know, there are difficulties with the arrow key controls, especially with changing angles. I'm just gonna put out a suggestion; Alternate Controls. Basically a few different controls to make thiungs easier, of course the first alternate control I'm putting foward is point-and-click as especially with the changing angles, point-and-click is conveniant, and telltale customers (I generally believe) are used to point and click.

Another alternate control I'm putting out there is keyboard button choice, what I mean is if for example you don't prefer pressing shift to bring up the inventory or if you want to control movement perhaps you want the keypad? I don't care.

Now being a Telltale game coming out in less than a week I obviously do not expect these changes to be made to this episode, I don't really expect it to even be changed this whole season, I don't really know how easy/hard it is to change game controls. This is just an idea I'm putting out there.

Now you've read this tear me apart with comments!

Thanks for Reading,
Lachlan_is

[DjNDB]

Yare;118392']For point-and-click to work, it would require that we impose limits on the sort of camera shots our choreographers could use -the ground would always need to be in the shot. This restriction is not compatible with a property as cinematic as W&G, so we had to set point-and-click aside for this game and consider other control schemes.

There is another way to get a mouse only interface working, which is furthermore easy to implement.
You could use dragging the mouse while the right mouse button is pressed in order to move the character. Then the direction of the mouse movement only needs to be mapped to the same events the respective keys are mapped to.

I think that could be a nice way to bypass the restrictions other approaches cause in a simple and elegant way.

[Murray the Chao]

I say point-and-click. The current control scheme would work PERFECTLY on the Wii, but is rather hard to use on the PC. Also, I fail to see why point-and-click wouldn't work.

[MussKatt]

Actually i always play my pc game with asdw movement. I was very surprised when i booted the demo and saw that this was the control scheme to be used in WG. And actually i'll admit i'm happy about it. Only nitpick i have with the controls is that sometimes you pass the cursor in front of an object and it doesn't register as an item that you can interact with, it happened twice for me. Kindof annoying but nothing dramatic.

p.s Just found out about the tab thing. Nevermind what i said lol.

[Harald B]

If you're running at graphics quality 1-3 I don't think you'll be able to use the "reveal selectable objects" feature, for what it's worth. It uses a full screen effect, which is part of the graphics system only when on the higher quality modes.As it turns out, I need to put graphics at at least 7 to use it. Drat.
I guess I'll manage, but why not substitute a lower-tech alternative when the level is lower? Maybe put those brackets on everything?

[Armakuni]

I just hope they won't use this control scheme in future Sam & Max games, even if it proves to be very popular.

[jp-30]

To everyone who likes to 'lean back' to play adventure games. Consider purchasing an extension cable for your keyboard.

[Zomantic]

After a few tries I found out that controlling the characters entirely through the keyboard (in the single hand/numpad fashion Will was referring to) feels - to me - much more natural than using the tutorialized hybrid system, which I think gets more confusing than expected (I've had exactly the same "click-willing" experience Derwin described).

I think that at least one of the many possible keyboard schemes should be fully indicated during the tutorial, so as to let players choose which one may be more suitable to them.

Anyway, the game looks awesome (still haven't had the chance to say it), and - being an italian TTG fan myself - I've particularly appreciated the multilanguage support. I hope you'll be able to do the same for more titles...

[RParks]

Having pre-ordered on the strength of previous wonderful Telltale games. I now find point-and-click has been replaced by ?????, words fail me as to what. Not what I had expected from a Telltale game. I guess that the PC games market is no longer the focus, all eyes on Wii, such a shame! Twenty minuets with the demo with these controls is not for me. This is a step backwards in PC gaming.

[casteevo]

I just hope they won't use this control scheme in future Sam & Max games, even if it proves to be very popular.

And here I was hoping that they would, at the very least, give us the option to use this control scheme in all of their future games.

[jennytablina]

Just played the demo, I found the control system perfectly fine!

I'm confused by the many people declaring they wont buy it purely due to control scheme. Its still the well-renowned Telltale style guys! It's just the controls are a little different. But its not a gamebreaker at all, Grim Fandango is considered a fantastic game by many despite having the same control scheme too.

The only thing is its kind of a shame you cant move in diagonals so much with the keyboard but this isnt really a big deal. Also it was a little tough to click Wallace when the bee is holding him.

Will be preordering hopefully, hoping to get a fellow W&G fan interested in this too

[Hakobus]

But its not a gamebreaker at all, Grim Fandango is considered a fantastic game by many despite having the same control scheme too.
I'll admit that Grim Fandango's control scheme was far more broken and unfriendly than W&G's. But it's also the reason I've played through the game only twice and through MI4 only once. There's no reason to put up with annoying crap when I can just go enjoy a game without a crippled control scheme. When I play a game I want to kick back and enjoy, I don't want to be forced to hassle with a half-assed system when it would've been a trivial matter to just keep it like it was.

EDIT to add: I mean, I'm willing to make sacrifices if the content is too good to pass. But in a casual style light-adventure game that Telltale's products have been, I'm not really willing to bet money on the content being of that caliber.

[iRock]

I personally enjoyed the demo, and really didn't notice the control scheme all that much. I think it works for Wallace and Gromit, as it adds something I can't put my finger on. However, I'd rather not see this in Sam and Max or SBCG4AP, where it wouldn't work. So, yeah, I liked it.

-iRock

[RParks]

And here I was hoping that they would, at the very least, give us the option to use this control scheme in all of their future games.

You must be joking. Would Strong Bad have been great with these controls? From that first episode, his bouncy fluid movement came from the mouse point control. It gave him his character straight away, for all players. If we had all been fumbling with WASD, Shift, Tab and Left Mouse, Strong Bad would have been a lame Strong Sad. Go back to that first episode and think about it.

[jennytablina]

I'll admit that Grim Fandango's control scheme was far more broken and unfriendly than W&G's. But it's also the reason I've played through the game only twice and through MI4 only once. There's no reason to put up with annoying crap when I can just go enjoy a game without a crippled control scheme. When I play a game I want to kick back and enjoy, I don't want to be forced to hassle with a half-assed system when it would've been a trivial matter to just keep it like it was.

EDIT to add: I mean, I'm willing to make sacrifices if the content is too good to pass. But in a casual style light-adventure game that Telltale's products have been, I'm not really willing to bet money on the content being of that caliber.

I understand what you mean: Grim Fandango was a bit chunky on the controls but W&G's control scheme doesnt seem to be a problem to me. Mind I'm a regular gamer and I accept stuff like no diagonals in Pokemon.

But it doesnt really seem like an issue to me at all. The only time the control scheme felt weird was when I walked back down Wallaby street from the crazy old man. IMO as long as theres not loads of diagonal long walkways to amble forever over it shouldnt be an issue (as I recall my beef with Grim being that there was way too much space to natvigate with a keyboard scheme)

[Kevin]

add: I mean, I'm willing to make sacrifices if the content is too good to pass. But in a casual style light-adventure game that Telltale's products have been, I'm not really willing to bet money on the content being of that caliber.

Heads up, most of us (http://www.telltalegames.com/company/ourteam/) actually created the games "of that caliber"!

[RParks]

Yare;118156']Hello everyone!

I'm the engineer responsible for the controls.

Why did you not use the right mouse button to show the inventory? As the left button selects items, this would have been more intuitive. Why on earth use the shift key or the mouse wheel?

[[TTG] Yare]

Why did you not use the right mouse button to show the inventory? As the left button selects items, this would have been more intuitive. Why on earth use the shift key or the mouse wheel?

Consistency. Right-click means "cancel" in WG regardless of context.

Middle mouse /wheel click brings up the UI.

[RParks]

Yare;118703']Consistency. Right-click means "cancel" in WG regardless of context.
Seems a waste of a useful control. ESC and "cancel" were made for each other, but you know best.

[Hakobus]

Heads up, most of us (http://www.telltalegames.com/company/ourteam/) actually created the games "of that caliber"!
Yeah, I didn't really mean ye olde adventure games when I said I was willing to make sacrifices for great content. It's why I don't replay the ones with crappy controls.

Content that goes over a horrible UI (and often horrible graphics and presentation, not to mention all the bugs) is more in the realm of Planescape: Torment or Arcanum or Fallout. But if it's light on content, it should also be light on the nerves (ie. simple and accessible UI).

[light_rises]

Seems a waste of a useful control. ESC and "cancel" were made for each other, but you know best.

A guess, but I think ESC is too far away from any of the other button clusters you can use to control the game, including WASD. That alone makes it less intuitive than the current setup.

In this case, I think the controls make a lot of sense as they are. You can left-click to interact with all the objects and inventory items in the game -- collecting them, combining them, using them on other things -- while right-click cancels whatever you're doing. Left = "action", Right = "cancel action." Sounds about right to me. *shrug*

[Krumelur]

Hi there,

the game looks fine and I have preordered and now I have played the demo and I'm really disappointed. Why on earth have you changed the controls to use WASD? Point & Click is the ONLY way to control an adventure game. This will scare a lot of players like me. Have you announced anywhere that the PC version will be WASD?
It is not an excuse that the game will be out for consoles too....why scare off all PC players? Does this now mean that Sam & Max will go into the same direction?
Man...what a shame. I'll see if I can get a refund.

René

[leon101]

I was confused when I played the demo at first, "Huh? WSAD to move... what? I can't just click." but I had no trouble, since I have played other games on the pc which use the exact same control scheme. I was wondering why this control scheme was chosen though.

[Avihai]

then the game will be perfrct!!!! the only issue is the point and click control allow the game (not the mini games-there you can make any control you would like) to be played only by mouse! when i played grim fandango and Monkey i4 i enjoyed the game but sufferd from the keybord only mouse.
im sure you can overcome the technical probloms!

[Quuux]

I'm thinking of using logitech setpoint to bind some of my extra mouse buttons to keys. But I'm not gonna play the demo, because I don't want any of the game spoiled :)

[Pantagruel's Friend]

I'm thinking of using logitech setpoint to bind some of my extra mouse buttons to keys. But I'm not gonna play the demo, because I don't want any of the game spoiled :)

I wouldn't be worried about that. In the demo, there are more threads left open than what you eventually close - it's a real appetizer :)

[dannythefool]

I'm confused by the many people declaring they wont buy it purely due to control scheme. Its still the well-renowned Telltale style guys! It's just the controls are a little different. But its not a gamebreaker at all, Grim Fandango is considered a fantastic game by many despite having the same control scheme too.

Not a big surprise. This forum obviously attracts people who enjoyed the other games that Telltale makes, and those let you use the mouse. On top of that, they do *not* let you use the keyboard. Basically, you have a forum full of people that like to use the mouse and don't really care much for the keyboard. It's no wonder that some of them won't buy the game if the control scheme is the opposite of what they're used to.

I'm part of that group. I bought Grim Fandango, by the way, but never played it for this reason. I will not make the same mistake again.

[Avihai]

Yare;118421']That's a good idea, but it comes with its own set of drawbacks.

If the ground is on the screen, we can cast a ray from a click and determine where it hit the ground. There is one correct solution.

If the ground is not on the screen, we have to cast a plane from where the user clicked, and see where it intersects the ground. The result of this is a line with infinite solutions. The user may have intended to walk far away from the camera, or near it, or anywhere in between. There's mathematically no way to tell.

I'm sorry that you find the controls unmanageable.

=

u can make a chacter related movment ,you can make up down or left acordding the position of your charcter, up will be from the belt area of walce and above. down will be from his belt and down and left is to the left of walcae and right will be be to the left of him,
up+left right+dosn and etc. are the combintion of the 2d position of the mouse on screen. every place you just need to re-configure the "belt" lociton to the area and chrecther.
(still , there are small things that iwm sure u can overcome with)
solve the problem or the u will lost some of your sales.

soory for my english im good in reading less then writing.

p.s
it will be great if you colud move the charcter while holding left button so when you hold left buuton and move the muse up the charcter will move up (parallel to pressing up in the keybord).

[Hakobus]

I tried playing through the demo with a wired Xbox 360 -controller, and the experience was much improved. I do have a few gripes, though.

1) Would it be possible to bind "show all hotspots" to one of the gamepad triggers? Since I can't wave a cursor around easily to scan for hotspots with the controller, I kept using show all hotspots to select what I wanted to interact with. It would be smoother to do that if I could just hold one of the triggers down. It's non-intuitive and a (small) hassle to hold down Y and to press A at the same time.

2) When I'm presented with a screen where I need to click "yes" to continue (like you are several times in the demo) why isn't yes chosen by default? When using a controller, the A button tends to always be yes or OK, but in Wallace & Gromit I had to first choose yes with the analog stick and then press A.

I would still prefer using my mouse, and I do feel it could easily work (even with cinematic angles) if it was done like avihai suggested (that is, if you click anywhere on the screen above Wallace's waist, he moves like you would've pushed up on the analog stick or the up arrow on the keyboard and same for other directions around his waist). One would assume a control scheme like this would be a trivial matter to implement?

[Will]

2) When I'm presented with a screen where I need to click "yes" to continue (like you are several times in the demo) why isn't yes chosen by default? When using a controller, the A button tends to always be yes or OK, but in Wallace & Gromit I had to first choose yes with the analog stick and then press A.

I'm not Yare and I hate to put words in his mouth, but I'm pretty sure that would be difficult to do on the PC. On the 360 it behaves in exactly the way you described, but for the PC the A button is essentially mapped to Left Click on the mouse. So for that to work, we would have to have the game automatically say OK every time you left click. The end result is that it would be very easy to accidentally click through any message, potentially causing you to save over the wrong file or accidentally load or any number of annoying behaviors.

Yare, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[[TTG] Yare]

Yare, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

That sounds about right. We don't fully support using a controller to navigate menus on the PC.

[MarkDarin]

I have nothing to do with programming controls, and I haven't thought this through at all, but if clicking the "OK" prompt is required to continue, perhaps we could try auto snapping the cursor to the button when it appears. I haven't tried it, so I don't know if that would be annoying or not. Just something that crossed my mind. Maybe something to consider for future projects...Perhaps I should keep my thoughts to myself...

[Hakobus]

we could try auto snapping the cursor to the button when it appears
Please do.

[Pirateguybrush]

Please do.

Seconded.

Re: Will's comment, I've seen plenty of mutliplatform releases where the 360 controller functions as expected on PC when in use, but the mouse also works fine. I think this is only the case if the game can't tell the difference between th A button and a left click, which really shouldn't be the case.

[[TTG] Yare]

Seconded.
I think this is only the case if the game can't tell the difference between th A button and a left click, which really shouldn't be the case.

You're probably right. This is an engine limitation that we're going to address for future projects.

[Armakuni]

Yare;118987']You're probably right. This is an engine limitation that we're going to address for future projects.
Future projecs? Do you mean future Wallace & Gromit games, or are you planning to put this control system in other franchises as well (Sam & Max for instance)?

[Jake]

Future projecs? Do you mean future Wallace & Gromit games, or are you planning to put this control system in other franchises as well (Sam & Max for instance)?

The ambiguity of the difference between "A" and "Left Click" came up as an issue internally when we were working on SBCG4AP as well, which was point 'n click, so don't draw too many conclusions here. We decide things like how a game should control by what we think is appropriate for the game and the platforms its on. Meaning, we don't know when the next version of any controls will show up. CSI operates differently from SCG4AP which is different from W&G.

[Maratanos]

I don't know if this was mentioned, but it strikes me that the intuitive thing to do with shift and the arrow keys is this:

If you press the shift key, it brings up the inventory. You can then cycle through the inventory with the arrow keys, and press shift again to select the item.

If you HOLD DOWN the shift key, then while you're holding it down, you can use the arrow keys to cycle through the inventory, and then when you release the shift key, the current item is brought out for use.

[Leak]

Wow. That's quite a downer.

Any PC game I've ever played has support for any gamepad. Windows treats all gamepads as just an object after all; if the user moves the stick or presses a button then you get returned (x y or z) which axis has been moved or (1, 2, 3...) which button has been pressed.
Actually, Windows has had a two-tier system for Joypad support for some time now, and it looks like Telltale went the newfangled XInput way instead of using trusty DirectInput.

Too bad there's hardly no XInput support besides Microsoft's own gamepads... :(

np: CLP - Insatiable ft. White Gold Princess (Supercontinental)

[Leak]

To everyone who likes to 'lean back' to play adventure games. Consider purchasing an extension cable for your keyboard.
My keyboard weighs almost a kilogram... :D

So gamepad it is... :)

np: CLP - Bang Out (Outro) (Supercontinental)

[Random Variable]

I tried the keyboard controls for about 2 minutes before deciding that I should use my XBOX 360 controller.

[azza29]

Hmm... have a wireless 360 controller but the game isn't picking it up, is this gamepad supported?

[WorldMaker]

I used my wired 360 controller a bit. I found that with the dual-stick focus my right thumb was getting tired jumping back to A/X/B. In a dual-stick heavy game the use of the triggers can be important.

My suggestions: It would be nice to use the Right Trigger as another alternative to A/Left Mouse Button (for a simple "point and shoot" mechanic that should seem relatively familiar to a 360 pad owner). Because the Inventory is the next most often pressed button I was thinking it might be useful on the Left Trigger, but there's probably more room to debate that.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

OK, I had half an hour to spend with the game, and besides being charmed by it's gorgeous implementation of the W&G universe, a question keeps nagging me: what's so horribly wrong with the controls that some people are giving up on the series? I honestly don't see them broken, not even inconvenient. Would I prefer point-and-click? Definitely. But once it's out of the question, I think these controls are close to optimal. They're handy, intuitive, and aren't getting in the way of playing. Key remapping is missing, though - I'm a little puzzled by this one...
Then, further on the plus side, the item interaction scheme (selection-wheel-left click) is simply great.

[taumel]

I just had a look at the W&G demo and in my opinion the steering for a keyboard steering is nicely done.

The only problem i'm having with it is the fact that a mouse steering, like multitouch as well, simply is superior to any keyboard steering. So again, well implemented but on PC the mouse is the far better steering option as it needs only one hand (i can also play with just the mouse lying in my bed), analog accelerated, simply less pressing effort for a more accurate effect.

I prefer a real point&click behaviour in adventures.

Hopefully Sam&Max stays with a mouse steering (option).

[azza29]

Hmm... have a wireless 360 controller but the game isn't picking it up, is this gamepad supported?

OK this issue appears to be confined to the demo, controller works fine in full game, and is definitely my preferred way of playing the game.

[Nightsurfer]

With almost 200 replies so far (if you add the posting from both related threads), the new control scheme seems to be the most discussed topic for the W&G adventure. - I have browsed through all postings now and it seems to me that a lot of people would like to get back to the former "point and click" style control. Though there are several statements that you get used to the new scheme quickly, the number of replies of people who really prefer to use the keyboard control is very low!

Personally, I always liked to control adventure games using the mouse only, so you do not need to sit straight at your desk for several hours, right hand on the mouse, left on the keyboard (or vice versa), but you can just lean back and still have one hand free to grab some potato chips or a drink while playing. ;) - Therefore I would really appreciate if Telltale would get back to the Sam&Max-style control for future games. Thanks.

[Falzo]

I think what would help a lot is if could have a help file or something listing the different keys that can be used on the keyboard. I tried a bit the keyboard and mouse control method and I didn't feel that comfortable. I also tried using only the numpad on the keyboard as Jake said and that was fine. The only problem was trying to figure out which keys did what. After that all is good. That same problem also appeared when I tried my gamepad.

[Leak]

My suggestions: It would be nice to use the Right Trigger as another alternative to A/Left Mouse Button (for a simple "point and shoot" mechanic that should seem relatively familiar to a 360 pad owner).
Unless I'm totally mistaken, pushing the right stick (like a button) does exactly that.

(Disclaimer: I'm at work, so I could well be mistaken... but I do know that it does SOMETHING... :))

[Leak]

Personally, I always liked to control adventure games using the mouse only, so you do not need to sit straight at your desk for several hours, right hand on the mouse, left on the keyboard (or vice versa), but you can just lean back and still have one hand free to grab some potato chips or a drink while playing. ;) - Therefore I would really appreciate if Telltale would get back to the Sam&Max-style control for future games. Thanks.
Well, might I recommend using a gamepad?

Alternatively - how about adding an on-screen keyboard you can click on? :D

[Nightsurfer]

Well, might I recommend using a gamepad?
I do own a gamepad, but 1) it would still be impossible to play using one hand only, 2) my hardware does not seem to be supported by the game and 3) why invest in new hardware just because Telltale decided to proceed with a control scheme I do not like anyway?

[der_ketzer]

I have to say I got used to the control (I used the arrow-keys). But still I would have prefered the old approach. (clicking to where you want to go.

In the demo I was trying to get Wallace moving a lot with the mouse.
In the full gamy I only tried that once.

It is great for everyone who wants to use a gamepad.
And I actually did not have the problem of walking to some unwanted position because I did not hit an object when I was clicking. That really was a big plus for the new controls.

[[TTG] Yare]

Though there are several statements that you get used to the new scheme quickly, the number of replies of people who really prefer to use the keyboard control is very low!


Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.

The scientific term for this is "self-selection bias".

[taumel]

And the german scientific term for worsen things which already worked pretty well is called Verschlimmbessern or Verhunzen.

[Nightsurfer]

Yare;120073']Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.
Agreed. - But it was you who had chosen to get feedback on the new control scheme through this forum, so what exactly had you expected?
If you want more representative feedback you might include a quick poll in your next newsletter and have a price drawing (for example offer some store credit) among all participants, so everybody is motivated to provide feedback. ;)

[[TTG] Yare]

Agreed. - But it was you who had chosen to get feedback on the new control scheme through this forum, so what exactly had you expected?

This is pretty close to what I was expecting.

The previous post was just to make the point that forums (like other groups that have self-selected) aren't appropriate samples to base an argument on.

[Rather Dashing]

They are, however, useful in gathering the faults people have with the control scheme, and find people with undesirable odds and ends that might be fixed. Which I'm assuming was Yare's actual goal.

[[TTG] Yare]

They are, however, useful in gathering the faults people have with the control scheme, and find people with undesirable odds and ends that might be fixed.

Indeed.

[LuigiHann]

OK this issue appears to be confined to the demo, controller works fine in full game, and is definitely my preferred way of playing the game.

Whoops, I didn't think to check again. Good to know for next time. I like the implementation of the right stick, but I especially like the way the d-pad is utilized. Makes it very easy to use stuff on other stuff. :D

[The Burninator]

At least have a S&M style option, please for the love of all that is pointy and clicky.

[ace22b]

Just finished.

The only real issue I had was with Grommit getting stuck behind fountain. I had to move him back and forth to get him out since I couldn't see him.

Other than that it was ok,although I kept forgetting to use ASWD and trying to move with a mouse.

[daro2096]

If your mouse feels unresponsive, it is most likely because you have your graphics settings up a bit too high. If you turn them down a bit, you will find that the mouse becomes much more responsive.

My computer is the latest spec and the controls are still unresponsive until you bring the level down to 4 and then what is the point of expensive hardware?

[Lena_P]

Um, I don't really mind the new controls? I mean, I'm not a hardcore gamer, or adventure gamer, so I never played Grim Fandango or Monkey Island, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but I got used to the hybrid system pretty quickly. Even my mom got used it almost instantly, and if anything, she seemed to find it easier than using just a mouse (or wii remote). Then again, her gaming experience is pretty much limited to SBCG4AP, spider solitaire and Columns for the Sega Master system. Maybe the new control system is easier to use the more of a n00b you are?

[der_ketzer]

Oh I forgot: On the market place I left the scenery several times unintentionally when I tried to get to the the shakeable pipe. (I have no idea what it is called in english.) That was really annoying.

[grimlog]

I really didn't like it at first, it reminded me of Monkey Island 4, which I hated mostly for it's controls.

MI4's problem was poor item placement and collision detection. There's no guarantee that Telltale will avoid these problems throughout the season, but they're not problems that are inherent to keyboard controls.

To the TT guys posting here.... thanks for implementing KB only controls (love that) and for bothering to respond, even to the stick-in-the-muds.

[dannythefool]

Yare;120073']Satisfied players rarely stop in the middle of a game they're playing and feel compelled to join a forum and post about it. Contrast this with people who have complaints.

The scientific term for this is "self-selection bias".

While this is true, people who lose interest in the game after playing the demo also rarely feel compelled to join a forum and post about it.

People who have played previous TT games are more likely to post here, and of course what you write fully applies to that group too. But is not entirely unreasonable that people who played previous TT games got used to the control scheme used there, and prefer it over others.

[DarkEvilWorm]

Because I like to play FPSs quite a bit, the control scheme seemed natural and familiar to me. I liked the whole system, and at one point I was feeling curious, so I picked up my Xbox 360 Wired Controller and had a fiddle about. I thought this worked well and I can see how this would work on XBLA.

All in all, I think that this control system works well, and I can't wait for Sam and Max on XBLA.

[Yohmi]

Well, i finished the game, and what can I say is even if the controls in the first seconds scared me, within a minute I accepted it. And in fact, I find it perfect.

My only complaint is about the "wheel" inventory. It takes me several times before I remmeber there was an inventory "window" typing "I", and seeing there is more objetcs than just with the wheel (like the map or the remote). Maybe an icon on the main window game could replace the non-ergonomic "find yourself the button lil fish brain" or at least, second it.

Oh, and I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of possible observations... in every game you can first look at things before taking them (or using them). There, you can only do one action. It's too bad to lose a lot of funny lines by the way...

But as I've always been against keyboard controls, the idea to mix (or let mix) keyboard to walk and mouse to click is a very good surprise. :)

[covox]

I'm suprised about the number of complaints about keyboard movement. Let's all pause for a moment and think about this logically.

The reason mouse movement works in traditional adventure games is because everything is accessible from the same field of view. In 2D, you either had a discrete viewport that didn't change, or a few screens stuck together in a panning shot. For scenes that needed more depth, the best you could do was compensate by adding glowing "doorways" at the bottom of the scene so the player could walk into/through the camera. Dodgy enough in 2D and headache-inducing in 3D.

From what I can tell, the art direction for the Sam and Max/Strong Bad games meant that it was possible to model their respective universes entirely with little-to-no scene depth. Strong Bad's house for instance, is cleverly designed to be one shoebox-style 2D cutaway, allowing the camera to move between rooms with one single panning shot. The main street in Sam and Max is linear, with everything happening on one side of the sidewalk. The big field in Strong Bad is laid out so that the camera can pan around the edge in a very wide circle; even if some landmarks are diametrically opposite you can't walk through the camera to get to them.

W&G on the other hand has scene depth in spades, and therefore there are areas which can't be reduced to a wide 2D panning shot. A good example of where the panning model isn't practical is the corridor of Wallace's house. It's shown in the game as it appears in the films: you've got the front door, dining room to the left, living room to the right, staircase and kitchen to the back, and a basement door beneath the staircase.

If you think about it, it's physically impossible to address all of these doorways with wide panning given the space. To get from the front door to the kitchen you need to tightly rotate the camera; under mouse movement there would be a lapse in control towards the middle of the hallway requiring messy clicking. With keyboard, you can just hold the down arrow.

I'm sure there are better examples, but try imagining W&G restricted to a scene depth-less art style and you'll find plenty of scenes that wouldn't work as well. After finishing the episode, I'd say the keyboard is a more natural way to navigate a 3D world with depth. (My main gripe was with the fiddly scroll buttons on the inventory, it never occured to me to try the mousewheel.)

[The Burninator]

Can't get my head past the controls. Trust me guys, adding a p'n'c control system will improve controls for future episodes.

[[TTG] Yare]

Can't get my head past the controls. Trust me guys, adding a p'n'c control system will improve controls for future episodes.

I will say with some confidence that point-and-click will not be added to future episodes of W&G. Bug fixes and tweaks to direct control will find their way in throughout the season, though.

[taumel]

But maybe TTG just has problems implementing a well working pathfinding algorithm for such scenes, isn't fond of setting up waypoints or defining walkable areas, not interested in maintaining two steering options (computer vs. console), too much time, who knows, because as long as i can click on something it's a lot easier navigating this way instead of pressing your keys to death and running the, for those keyboard steerings typical, zigzags or bumping into objects with the afterwards short distance beams.

Grim Fandango, Monkey Island 4, Broken Sword 3 and and ..., all failed and it never worked as well as a mouse point&click. Again, it's well implemented but still can't compete with a mouse steering. As an option, yes, as the only steering solution, nope.

I was thinking about buying W&G although they aren't characters i really would have liked to see but with just the keyboard steering in there it's just not working out, so i'm hoping for Sam&Max3 instead.

[danewsh]

I think having to use the keyboard in Wallace unlike S&M is a step backwards for Telltale. Also, unless I'm mistaken there's no way to save more than one game in Bees. I'm not thrilled with this game so far.

[Rather Dashing]

Danesh, you are mistaken. There are four "bookmark" tabs you can save to, I don't know why you don't see them? Under "Your Game" and "Bookmarks"?

Unless I am reading you wrong.

On another note, I find "R" for inventory to feel the most uncomfortable. If I was mapping it, I would have used "F". Since it's not used for anything else, could that be an alternate inventory key?

[zero1221]

I do have to say I didn't like the new controls very much and at first I thought
something was wrong with my mouse because I skipped the tutorial not knowing
of the change to controls. I figured it out with the arrow keys and then the
wasd arrows and the buttons for items and such, but the controls are still pretty bad. I loved the story tho good job on that part telltale you captured Wallace & Gromit perfectly there.

[zero1221]

Danesh, you are mistaken. There are four "bookmark" tabs you can save to, I don't know why you don't see them? Under "Your Game" and "Bookmarks"?

Unless I am reading you wrong.

On another note, I find "R" for inventory to feel the most uncomfortable. If I was mapping it, I would have used "F". Since it's not used for anything else, could that be an alternate inventory key?

I think he doesn't know that you have to hit esc to bring up the menu
also shift can be used for the inventory and tab will highlight clickables.

[Quuux]

Well, I finished the game earlier today and withdraw the reservations I had about the control system (In fact, if Grim Fandango had the same system, I'd play it again).

I did like the fact that there were duplicate controls when using keyboard and mouse. I mostly stuck to wasd moving and using the mouse for the rest (middle click for inventory was pretty natural for me), although I did use the tab highlight option once or twice.

Three thumbs up for W&G:FotB.

[zero1221]

Well, I finished the game earlier today and withdraw the reservations I had about the control system (In fact, if Grim Fandango had the same system, I'd play it again).

I did like the fact that there were duplicate controls when using keyboard and mouse. I mostly stuck to wasd moving and using the mouse for the rest (middle click for inventory was pretty natural for me), although I did use the tab highlight option once or twice.

Three thumbs up for W&G:FotB.
I always forget a button is there so that will be handy to know when the next wallace and gromit game comes out. Not that shift was that hard with it being a pinky away, but it will be nicer.

[Fallenkal]

Yare;118156']Hello everyone!

I'm the engineer responsible for the controls. After you folks play through the demo, I'd like to hear your initial impressions and nitpicks about the control scheme. Then I'd like to hear from you again after you've played through a full episode or two.

Not sure if a readme for controls shipped with the demo, but here's some stuff anyway:


If the inventory is closed, mouse wheel will cycle through your inventory items.
If the inventory is open, and you have a bunch of inventory items, mouse wheel will scroll the inventory.
The game can be played entirely with the keyboard.
Q and E cycle through selectable items on screen.
Hold Tab to make all the selectable items on screen stand out.
Shift opens your inventory.
Space activates items.
Control skips dialog and backs out of closeups.


And uhhh... there's probably other stuff I'll post when I remember. We mapped keys everywhere to try and give you guys as many options as possible.

I played the demo and I just don't like the control system.

I understand you can play it entirely with the keyboard, and I have tried after finding the keyboard/mouse combo to be pretty frustrating. But in the end I'm just yearning for point and click.

I've played both Sam and Max seasons, and Strong Bad. I'd love to see a "classic" control system added, as it's faithful to your previous seasons of games.

As of right now, this game brings back memories of Broken Sword 3, which quickly became my least favorite of the 4 just because of the control system. While I've played through Broken Sword 1,2 and 4 many many times over the years, I've only played through Broken Sword 3 once.

At the end of the day, I'm balancing my frustration with the control system, with my enjoyment of the game and I feel that balancing the two is already compromising the potential of this season. I am glad I bought the season, I just don't want to look back on this game as another "Broken Sword 3"... GIVE US POINT AND CLICK! PLEASE!

[Laserschwert]

While I'm fine with the controls, I really HATE the load/save system (which took me a while to figure out)... why the bookmark- and "your game"-thing? Why not a simple save-slot window like in S&M?

[[TTG] Yare]

While I'm fine with the controls, I really HATE the load/save system (which took me a while to figure out)... why the bookmark- and "your game"-thing? Why not a simple save-slot window like in S&M?

It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.

Personally, I just let the game autosave and then I continue from the Your Game slot next time.

[[TTG] Yare]

GIVE US POINT AND CLICK! PLEASE!

I'm sorry, but you're not going to see point-and-click for this or any other Wallace & Gromit episode.

[taumel]

Yesterday i met some friends and we also had a short discussion about adventures and W&G's steering came up as well (no one really liked it btw). What i found remarkable is that at some point in the conversation i realised that if someone would have told me that...

During the conversation a somehow familiar voice in my head raised up. "Hey, don't be confused, it's me, i mean you, just from the future!" and i have good and bad news for you. There will be more adventures done by reunited ex LucasArts designers in the future, so much for the good, but listen buddy you won't enjoy or even buy them anymore."

I would have never believed myself and said something like "What?! Am i (completely) nuts in the future, blind, ran out of money?" and thought if it's the money i'll somehow get a copy and if i have to rob a bank or two or even worse ask my parents for some money. No, there must be another way. Interrupting my bubbling up thoughts on how to get money my futuristic me corrected me "No, well at least i'm not aware of any of this yet but it's just that they stopped inventing original content and instead stick to licences now. They even reintroduced the keyboard steering." "Eyeyey, give me a break, keyboard steering? Okay, this must be somekind of a joke, next you gonna tell me that there will be annoying time triggered mini games in there as well or that you can even die in their adventures and savegames will be replaced by badly choosen automatic savepoints. Or, hah, even no more inventory puzzles!" The voice in my head, somehow beeing disturbed mumbled something like "No time left, these time calls get rather expensive these days" leaving my head again with an echoing out "You'll see!".

Kai asked me "Taumel? Everything alright?" and i doubtfully, slightly disoriented answered, "No, not really."

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Yare;120793']It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.

I think the Sam and Max game management method was just perfect. Can we have it back? Please? :)

[Laserschwert]

Yare;120793']It was an attempt to make something that would combine the simplicity of console autosave/continue systems while still allowing micromanagement for people more familiar with PC save/load systems.

Personally, I just let the game autosave and then I continue from the Your Game slot next time.
But didn't S&M work the same way? The first save slot was the autosave, while the others were freely usable... just with less "radomly clicking on buttons". Having it all in one screen should be perfectly alright.

Somehow I have the feeling that for W&G you just wanted to make everything different... if it made sense or not. "It's another game, and we want it to not remind people of the other games." C'mon, don't try to force a fix on something that wasn't broken in the first place. You don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time... especially if the wheel is replaced by some square block.

[Yohmi]

Fact is I've never seen Taumel not disappointed of anything.

[Chris1]

I played the demo and I just don't like the control system.

I understand you can play it entirely with the keyboard, and I have tried after finding the keyboard/mouse combo to be pretty frustrating. But in the end I'm just yearning for point and click.

After trying it with the keyboard, and then a Gamepad, I can tell it's been designed with the pad in mind. It just feels so natural.

I do feel a bit bad though, as most PC owners won't have a pad to play with and will naturally be upset.


May I make a suggestion? How about also mapping the inventory and the show items abilities to MOUSE 3 and MOUSE 4, and then implementing some sort of "follow the cursor if it moves close to the edge of the screen" system for walking?
Then you'd eliminate the need for the keyboard completely.

[[TTG] Yare]

May I make a suggestion? How about ... implementing some sort of "follow the cursor if it moves close to the edge of the screen" system for walking?

This system becomes troublesome when switching camera angles -suddenly or gradually.

[Armakuni]

How about making the character stop for a second or so every time the angle changes? You could click the mouse button to keep moving immediately, or something like that.

Wouldn't have to be absolutely perfect, just an optional system.

You could also have the cursor be an arrow pointing away from the character. Clicking (and possibly holding) the mouse would move the character in the direction designated by the arrow. This way you could just keep the button pressed and move the mouse around, to keep the character moving.
You could also make the character adjust its speed by moving the cursor further away.
When you enter a new scene, or the angle changes, the character could stop and you'd have to press the mouse button again to make the character move further.

[[TTG] Yare]

How about making the character stop for a second or so every time the angle changes? You could click the mouse button to keep moving immediately, or something like that.

A clunky workaround for what would be an already clunky control scheme.

Millions of people have been playing games using WASD for decades now and it has proven to be a satisfactory method for driving characters. I don't think that adding a control option that's far worse and more unintuitive than point-and-click or WASD would benefit anybody, including the handful of people who think they want it.

If there was a good alternative to keyboard control for driving characters around in games with 3rd person fixed cameras, it would be in widespread use.

[Armakuni]

How about the other idea then, click and hold the mouse button to move toward the cursor (that could be shaped as an arrow pointing in the direction you would move)? Doesn't seem clunky to me. This would allow you to still click on various hotspots as the character would not follow the mouse automatically.
Right click could be for running. Or if you want the right click for something else, right click while holding the left button down could be for running. I think it would be great, don't see why this would be so clunky.

...including the handful of people who think they want it.
So they only *think* they want it.
I'm sorry but that's condescending.

[[TTG] Yare]

How about the other idea then, click and hold the mouse button to move toward the cursor (that could be shaped as an arrow pointing in the direction you would move)?

This scheme too has issues that make it undesirable.

So they only *think* they want it.

Yes. If you've never played W&G with any of these novel control schemes you're suggesting, it follows that you don't have the necessary information to decide if any of them are preferable to the control scheme it shipped with.

Please keep control feedback limited to bugs or suggestions for the control scheme that shipped with W&G. I appreciate that the community is so interested in debating this topic, but I can assure you that everything mentioned in this thread and more was brought up long ago and discussed to death in control scheme meetings at work -and some were even prototyped. WASD won out for W&G.

Again, I'm sorry if you find the control scheme unsatisfactory. We have our reasons for using it in W&G and it's going to stay for the season.

//EDIT: I forgot, there's another thread that started about alternate control schemes. Feel free to continue speculation there.

[Armakuni]

There's really no way you can know whether 'this handful of people' only think they want mouse controls. There might very well be people that would like controls like that, even if the majority would not.
And I don't think the last suggestion was all that novel, I've played games with controls not too far from that. Granted, it would be difficult to make it intuitive in a game like this, but I'm not convinced it's impossible to make the game playable using some sort of mouse controls.
However, the controls as they are right now are definitely very good for keyboard controls, I like how you're still allowed to use the mouse to find hotspots and such. So for what it is, it's certainly a good system.

But alright, I'll shut up about this in this thread, then.

[[TTG] Yare]

There's really no way you can know whether 'this handful of people' only think they want mouse controls.

I'm positive that a lot of people here would appreciate point-and-click. I'm also positive that the point-and-click alternatives that have been brought up here are not something that could ever be made intuitive enough to ship with a game with W&G's requirements. Not because they're bad ideas, but because there are actually only a couple control schemes that people can use comfortably and the kind of game we made excludes most of them.

[taumel]

Fact is I've never seen Taumel not disappointed of anything.

Who are you? Anyway fact is that you're wrong. For instance regarding TTG's adventures i was pretty much pleased with 204 and as speaking of Sam&Max, as Laserschwert pointed out already, most in there was fine, nicely working point&click, inuitive and fast accessible system menu, only the inventory could be done better in my opinion but overall it was all working.

If certain camera angles/positions force you to use alternative second class steering controls i would think about if i really need those. Are they the main contribution for driving the fun in the game or do we just want to get a bit more stylish? If this is the case i actually would call this a bad decision because it doesn't focus on what's important in such an adventure anymore.

So Fahrenheit for instance was nice to watch but really not to play.

I am not interested in playing WASD adventures because it never worked in a convincing way and we already have a better working wide spread alternative, the mouse. Actually i also don't play FPS games with WASD and instead use the mouse for movements (lmb=forward, rmb=backward) which is enough for beating single player games, multiplayer is a different story.

Back to the steering: If something like a floor you normally want to click on is hidden by objects you also could think of more intelligent mouse steering interpretations/gestures. An intuitive steering of a 3d character in a 3d environment needs other input possibilities such as multitouch or a wide spread 3d tracking solution but really not WASD as it's too limited. WASD limits your steering communication to a combination of four digital signals and i doubt that even if your putting a lot of effort into pseudo AI around it or unless you're keeping a scene really simple, it will turn into something good and even if it would, it might be questionable because you might have better put this effort into other aspects.


Imagine a situation were you could offer two new games which aren't known yet:

a) Wallace&Grommit, featuring fancy camera angles and WASD steering.
b) Monkey Island with old skool point&click but a great designed story, characters and riddles.

What do you think is the better game and which one drives you more sales?


You also can see it from the perspective that it's just another one of those bad console to computer conversion multiplatform issues. Annoying if you care about a certain type of game but sadly still common.

[CameO73]

a) Wallace&Grommit, featuring fancy camera angles and WASD steering.
b) Monkey Island with old skool point&click but a great designed story, characters and riddles.

You conveniently forget that W&G is an IP owned by another company (Aardvark) who is adamant in keeping the original look and feel of the "claynimated" series. This means cinematic framing and a more person oriented approach (hence the WASD steering).

I really don't get the complaints. Telltale Games definitely have done their homework figuring out the best user interface. I can tell immediately that a point & click approach would be cumbersome at best ... and unplayable at worst.

A little more on-topic: although I did click once or twice on the ground (unavoidable after my S&M season marathons) I did find the WASD steering very comfortable. Yes, there were a couple of times it felt a bit wonky (mainly when the camera angles changed) but it never got it the way.

Keep up the good work ... looking forward to the next episode!

[Sir Lemming]

This has probably been mentioned in 9 pages, but I played with a gamepad and my one major complaint is that the Save/Load screen doesn't respond to gamepad input. The rest of the menu does.

[Imapus Sylicker]

Sorry for posting this twice, but only now I found this thread, and I think my post fits better here than this thread (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7996). Feel free to delete my original post (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=121127&postcount=79).

Well, I bought the game, since I played through both Grim Fandango (me favourite) and Monkey Island 4 with absolutely no problems whatsoever apart from breaking three computers in frustration. On the fourth, I managed alright.

And while I do understand all these "camera limitations" and stuff, I sincerely hope you're telling the truth, and it had nothing to do with the xbox, or the playstation, or the master system, or something like that... if it DID, however... well, I gotta ask... are you turning into LucasArts? Or Metallica, or whatever? Turning your back on everything that made you AFTER you turned into something worth noticing?

Edit: Crap, Deja Vu. I just read this quote and you know what it reminds me of?

Quote:Originally Posted by [TTG] Yare
Also as our CEO mentioned in a recent interview, driving the characters around directly provides a more immersive experience than any sort of mouse movement could provide.

"The controls put you smack in Manny's world", or whatever similar sh*t LucasArts was spewing around at the time.

I'm packing my bags, just in case.

[Kevin]

Why would you assume that there is some evil motivation behind this decision? Have you played our poker game (http://www.telltalegames.com/casual)? It's not an adventure and doesn't have point and click controls, but I think people still find it very entertaining and very "Telltale".

I could name countless examples of pure "point and click" games that are crap. The interface is only one of many factors to making a great game. We're certainly not changing our core values, and you'd be doing yourself a pretty big disservice to pack it up now!

[Emily]

Destructoid put up an interesting post (http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-09-telltale-games-proved-me-wrong-126317.phtml) about the keyboard vs. gamepad controls in Wallace & Gromit. Those who have played on the keyboard but haven't yet played with a gamepad may find it interesting.

[Kevin]

What if we figured out a way for you guys to get a gamepad for super, super cheap? Would that be interesting to you?

[Diduz]

What if we figured out a way for you guys to get a gamepad for super, super cheap? Would that be interesting to you?

I think that COULD be a nice idea (Sam & Max pad, anyone? :D), but not the best. :o
I've just finished reading posts on some Italian forums and many players are disappointed with the direct control (I'm speaking as a witness, I'm not that shocked to mock up fake reactions :D). They don't hate the game just for that, but they feel "betrayed", so to speak. I wouldn't ignore the reaction if I were you.
All in all, I think that different controls for different machines are the way to go. I know, it's more taxing, it's more expensive to pull off, it takes more time, yet... it's the way to go.
If there's one thing I liked of your games was the intuitive interaction. Direct control can be intuitive with a joypad, but it's not as intuitive on a keyboard. It would be intuitive if you just had to move Wallace & Gromit around without interacting with hotspots or your inventory. Unfortunately, you have to. Heck, it's a story game, after all. There's no more intuitive way to control this kind of game on the PC than p'n'c. You point 'n' click through Windows, point 'n' click through your browser, point 'n' click to open a media file... On the contrary, I agree that Xbox 360 users don't point 'n' click. :)
Expanding your particular story game in the console market is an important (and I would say "mandatory") step. But I really didn't see anything in the PC version of Fright of the Bumblebees to justify the direct control. I was open to embrace it, I even defended it beforehand, just because I thought it would bring something new to the interaction. Well, it didn't. Maybe the game IS more cinematic, but Sam & Max Seasons were already far more cinematic than the majority of contemporary adventure games.
Do I think the direct control in W&G works? I do, after all.
Do I think it's necessary in the PC version? I don't. ;)

[Imapus Sylicker]

Why would you assume that there is some evil motivation behind this decision? Have you played our poker game (http://www.telltalegames.com/casual)? It's not an adventure and doesn't have point and click controls, but I think people still find it very entertaining and very "Telltale".

I could name countless examples of pure "point and click" games that are crap. The interface is only one of many factors to making a great game. We're certainly not changing our core values, and you'd be doing yourself a pretty big disservice to pack it up now!

Well, that sets my mind to some relief. It's NOT the controls, it's the change of focus I'm afraid of. To keep the ball in the same table, LucasArts changed the controls to try and reach for the console market, not because it was better. Thus crapping all over everything that made them and. And it only got worse over time, of course.

Moving on to that table over there, Revolution kept the same style, mostly, with a few minor experimentations. Crate moving sure was fun, for the first 30 seconds. However, people complained, they listened. And behold, crate moving was no more.

Moral? Well, you can't please everybody, but if most of your costumers complain about something - and now we're not necessarily talking about this control thingy subject, mind you - change that, or drop it. ESPECIALLY if, as in Telltale's case, you've got rabid fans who will buy everything you release - and now we're not necessarily talking about myself, though I do count myself as a fan - because they like the company even more than the games. Yes, your poker game is interesting, and Telltaley. So is Wallace & Gromit.

But we've - and here I believe can speak for more people than myself - seen so many changes over the years ending up in colossal piles of that smelly brown stuff that comes out of people's rear ends, that you really can't blame us for trembling in fear at any mention of any change.

Putting it bluntly and wrapping it up: Changes are a necessary evil, and there's always room for improvement. However, if you lose focus, you'll lose fans. If you don't, you won't. Change away, but keep pouring out AT LEAST the same quality you got us used to. And tell your CEO not to say things like that anymore. It's scary.

What if we figured out a way for you guys to get a gamepad for super, super cheap? Would that be interesting to you?

Don't post things like that. People might think you're serious.

Destructoid put up an interesting post (http://www.destructoid.com/gdc-09-telltale-games-proved-me-wrong-126317.phtml) about the keyboard vs. gamepad controls in Wallace & Gromit. Those who have played on the keyboard but haven't yet played with a gamepad may find it interesting.

Yes, Grim Fandango could also be played on a gamepad. *shudders*

Still the best adventure game ever released. Imagine if they went with point & click. ;)

I've just finished reading posts on some Italian forums and many players are disappointed with the direct control (I'm speaking as a witness, I'm not that shocked to mock up fake reactions :D). They don't hate the game just for that, but they feel "betrayed", so to speak. I wouldn't ignore the reaction if I were you.

Case in point. Thank you, Diduz.

All in all, I think that different controls for different machines are the way to go. I know, it's more taxing, it's more expensive to pull off, it takes more time, yet... it's the way to go.

This is a good idea, from OUR point of view. I wouldn't suggest something like this, nor will I expand upon it, but I will quote it, much like flinging the hook with a tasty worm attached and lay down until something bites it or it's time to go home.

[Lachlan_is]

What if we figured out a way for you guys to get a gamepad for super, super cheap? Would that be interesting to you?

Then I'd say your a LIAR!!!!!! no, but really, that sounds primo

[Udvarnoky]

To keep the ball in the same table, LucasArts changed the controls to try and reach for the console market, not because it was better.

Grim Fandango was a PC-only game, so I'm kind of confused as to how you reached that conclusion. Unless there was some canceled console port that no one knows about? That's possible, I suppose. But I think the reason the Grim team went for the controls that they did was for the same reason Telltale's doing it now - freedom of composition, and the (theoretical) added immersion of actually driving your character. Whether or not you agree with its implementation it's pretty clear that the intention with Grim was to further strip away interface and put the player more "in" the game. (Notice how there is no text UI to speak of in Grim Fandango - no sentence line, no inventory box. Manny IS the interface.) Your idea that it was all just some cynical attempt to cash in on the console market might hold water if you had actual evidence to back it up.

And it only got worse over time, of course.


I'm not sure how well or accurately this supposed trend can really be evaluated seeing as LucasArts only put out one more adventure game after Grim Fandango. So by "over time" you really just mean, "with Escape from Monkey Island." It's also worth noting that the canceled Sam & Max 2 was a return to a point 'n click interface.

that you really can't blame us for trembling in fear at any mention of any change.

You really can't blame me for trembling in fear whenever one of my fellow adventure gamers trembles in fear at any mention of the word "change," as though keeping adventure games exactly where they are is somehow a preferable scenario. If you think interface has anything to do with why the majority of adventure games suck, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, suffice it to say that I think you're focusing on the wrong things.

[Armakuni]

Interface does matter a great deal in adventure games, though. When you change the interface, the gameplay soon changes as well. It often does, anyway.

[Udvarnoky]

I don't think it matters nearly as much as things like the game's story, writing, puzzle design, world... the things that actually and truly make an adventure game great and which are the areas where so many adventure games are lacking. Yet there's this implied belief that, no, it all just boils down to point 'n click versus direct control. If there was something truly horrible about the way Wallace & Gromit was handled it would be one thing, but that's clearly not the case.

[Kevin]

As the person who actually implemented the controls in Grim (please don't throw things at me), I can assure you the move was not to cash in on the console market. I can tell you Tim was very passionate about moving the genre forward. He didn't want any UI on screen, and really wanted the game to feel like a movie. He absolutely did NOT want a cursor on screen, and it had nothing to do with consoles. It has to do with story telling, and when it comes to that, Tim's one of the best.

[Imapus Sylicker]

Grim Fandango was a PC-only game, so I'm kind of confused as to how you reached that conclusion. Unless there was some canceled console port that no one knows about? That's possible, I suppose. But I think the reason the Grim team went for the controls that they did was for the same reason Telltale's doing it now - freedom of composition, and the (theoretical) added immersion of actually driving your character. Whether or not you agree with its implementation it's pretty clear that the intention with Grim was to further strip away interface and put the player more "in" the game. (Notice how there is no text UI to speak of in Grim Fandango - no sentence line, no inventory box. Manny IS the interface.) Your idea that it was all just some cynical attempt to cash in on the console market might hold water if you had actual evidence to back it up.

You're right, of course. I should've mentioned Monkey 4. That's where it really started going downhill. I only mentioned Grim because it's my favorite adventure game despite its interface, and the first game that pops in my head when you add adventure games and keyboard. But yes, it was Monkey 4 that was designed for the playstation.

I'm not sure how well or accurately this supposed trend can really be evaluated seeing as LucasArts only put out one more adventure game after Grim Fandango. So by "over time" you really just mean, "with Escape from Monkey Island." It's also worth noting that the canceled Sam & Max 2 was a return to a point 'n click interface.

That's what I mean by "over time". One LAST adventure game. For years. And then the cancellation of TWO games that the fans were feverishly expecting. It does seem to me LucasArts got worse over time.

You really can't blame me for trembling in fear whenever one of my fellow adventure gamers trembles in fear at any mention of the word "change," as though keeping adventure games exactly where they are is somehow a preferable scenario. If you think interface has anything to do with why the majority of adventure games suck, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree, suffice it to say that I think you're focusing on the wrong things.

Changes are good when they're good. In my opinion, Telltale should've directed its efforts to change its puzzle tree - which in my opinion is getting a bit tiresome and repetitive - instead of controls that were proven to be good, and which, I may add, brought alot of fans to Telltale. I seem to remember that they used the same pitch LucasArts did with Sam & Max 2. Sam & Max are back in 3D point n' click. Or maybe I'm confused? Who knows?

But, like I said, it isn't the controls themselves. It's just what might come after. Who knows? Maybe Telltale will improve, maybe they'll pull a LucasArts. Right now, all we know is they chose to implement controls which have caused lots of grief in the past for adventure gamers and are causing at least some grief now, and not only to me. We can, of course, agree to disagree, and that is many times the best solution. Each is entitled to his/her own opinion and ar*ehole.

However, forgive me for being a pessimist, but I'm pretty sure I'll live longer that way. Less disappointments, and all.

Cheers!

[Imapus Sylicker]

As the person who actually implemented the controls in Grim (please don't throw things at me), I can assure you the move was not to cash in on the console market. I can tell you Tim was very passionate about moving the genre forward. He didn't want any UI on screen, and really wanted the game to feel like a movie. He absolutely did NOT want a cursor on screen, and it had nothing to do with consoles. It has to do with story telling, and when it comes to that, Tim's one of the best.

You're right, Tim's the best when it comes to storytelling. I can't repeat this enough: Grim Fandango is the best adventure game I ever played. Because of the story.

However, the controls were proven to be disastrous. Don't take this personal, I'm not one to tell you how you should do your job, and it doesn't really matter to me if you did them by yourself or if you were told to do them. But it did cause a lot of grief.

Again, don't take this personal. It doesn't matter how good you are at something, you will never score 20/20. Everyone fails. What 's important is learning from mistakes - yours and others - and not insisting on them.

And again, I find myself walking out of the screen when I want to go the other way. It's frustrating.

[Kevin]

Trust me, over the past 10 years I've heard all the complaints about the Grim controls, but I think there was a lot to be learned from them. I absolutely think Grim would not have been a special as it was if it had been point and click.

I don't think the controls were disastrous, Grim is still one of the most beloved games in spite of them. However, I do think a general lack of innovation has been disastrous for adventure gaming, which is why legends like Tim are moving away from the genre.

My take away is simply nothing ventured, nothing gained, and I think there's a lot left to be gained when it comes to story gaming! Someone's got to be willing to test out new ideas!

[Imapus Sylicker]

I dunno, Kev... you, as a programmer, insist these controls are good. I, as a user, say they're crap. I know what I can do, and you know what you can do. And I mean business-like. Again, let's not take this to a personal level or double-entendres. Anyway, I don't think there's more to be said regarding this subject, really.

[Kevin]

I dunno, Kev... you, as a programmer, insist these controls are good.

I've never insisted the controls are good (or bad), just that innovation and experimentation are a neccesisty (warts and all...).

[Imapus Sylicker]

Good one about the warts and experimentation. Which leads me to stray from the topic to a way more important one. Can we expect to see any more very hidden intercourse jokes like the Miss Uranus watchamacallit thingy that beauty pageant contestants wear around themselves in said pageants - I'm sorry, I'm Portuguese, can't speak a word of this Ingrish crap - in Sam & Max's office in Episode 204, if memory doesn't fail me?

Then of course, there's also the very memorable joke about the envelope not being the only thing the president licked.

[Udvarnoky]

You're right, of course. I should've mentioned Monkey 4. That's where it really started going downhill. I only mentioned Grim because it's my favorite adventure game despite its interface, and the first game that pops in my head when you add adventure games and keyboard. But yes, it was Monkey 4 that was designed for the playstation.

I think the portion I highlighted is probably the most important thing out of this whole discussion.

That's what I mean by "over time". One LAST adventure game. For years. And then the cancellation of TWO games that the fans were feverishly expecting. It does seem to me LucasArts got worse over time.

Well, okay, but...you insinuated that it all stemmed from an interface change. Obviously the cancellation of Full Throttle 2 and Sam & Max 2 had nothing to do with what you're talking about.

Changes are good when they're good. In my opinion, Telltale should've directed its efforts to change its puzzle tree - which in my opinion is getting a bit tiresome and repetitive - instead of controls that were proven to be good, and which, I may add, brought alot of fans to Telltale. I seem to remember that they used the same pitch LucasArts did with Sam & Max 2. Sam & Max are back in 3D point n' click. Or maybe I'm confused? Who knows?

But what it still sounds like, and forgive me if I come across as harsh (I'm not totally unsympathetic to your opinion), is that you're just adverse to change. That changing up the control mechanics is inherently bad because it's change from "controls that were proven to be good," not because there's an actual problem (or at least, an insurmountable one) with the new controls. Is point 'n click "right" simply because it's a good mechanic that the majority of adventure games have been using for twenty years, or because they're literally the only correct way for a player to interact with an adventure game?

But, like I said, it isn't the controls themselves. It's just what might come after. Who knows? Maybe Telltale will improve, maybe they'll pull a LucasArts.

I don't understand what you're trying to say with this. It's like you're trying to tie in controls with some overarching attitude that a company has toward story games. It doesn't make a lick of sense. What, if LEC had just didn't fix what wasn't broken and kept everything point 'n click, they wouldn't have ventured away from adventure games? That's, of course, insane. So I'm curious if you could elaborate a bit on this worst case scenario for Telltale that W&Gs controls may lead to in your mind.

Right now, all we know is they chose to implement controls which have caused lots of grief in the past for adventure gamers and are causing at least some grief now, and not only to me. We can, of course, agree to disagree, and that is many times the best solution. Each is entitled to his/her own opinion and ar*ehole.

Is there any adventure game with the exact same controls as Wallace & Gromit (which is a mixture between direct control and point 'n click) that you can point to and compare reception, or are you just trying to rail against direct control in general? A lot of people complained about Grim's controls - some of it was legitimate (the elevator issues), but I think most of it was just the fact that the game was daring to change the control mechanic from the same general one that had been used since 1987. People's "grief" with Grim Fandango obviously didn't stop some of them, including yourself, to hold it as the greatest adventure game of all time. If direct control isn't enough to prevent an adventure game from being the greatest of all time, you have to wonder how much a person shouldn't really worry about it, or if 10 page threads devoted to the subject comes from a genuine concern about a game's quality and not simply a concern about messing with tradition.

[Imapus Sylicker]

I'll edit dome of you quotes 'coz I don't think it necessary to reply to everything.

I think the portion I highlighted is probably the most important thing out of this whole discussion.

It might be. If by the end of the series Wllace & Gromit prove to be really good, storywise, then the controls will have become e minor nuisance by then. However, due to the same Telltale puzzle tree and story arch that we're more than used to, it's feeling like every Telltale's Sam & Max game, only with different characters and worse controls. And that's bad. THAT is where the effort should've gone too. A different way to solve puzzles and to tell the story.

Don't ask me how. If I knew how, I'd be MAKING games, not playing them. I just know it can be done, i.e. LucasArts games were different from each other, from Sierra's, that were different from Revolution's, which were different from the Discworlds, etc.

Is point 'n click "right" simply because it's a good mechanic that the majority of adventure games have been using for twenty years, or because they're literally the only correct way for a player to interact with an adventure game?

They're right exactly because noone complained about them in 20 years. And people didn't stop playing adventure games because they didn't eveolve. They stopped playing them becauseost people didn't have the patience to finish ONE, let alone buy another.

Well, okay, but...you insinuated that it all stemmed from an interface change. Obviously the cancellation of Full Throttle 2 and Sam & Max 2 had nothing to do with what you're talking about.

I don't understand what you're trying to say with this. It's like you're trying to tie in controls with some overarching attitude that a company has toward story games. It doesn't make a lick of sense. What, if LEC had just didn't fix what wasn't broken and kept everything point 'n click, they wouldn't have ventured away from adventure games? That's, of course, insane. So I'm curious if you could elaborate a bit on this worst case scenario for Telltale that W&Gs controls may lead to in your mind.

I'm just seeing a pattern here, man. The man is out there, man. He's out to get us, man. He's an evil man, man.

In all seriousness, again, I'm a pessimist.

If direct control isn't enough to prevent an adventure game from being the greatest of all time, you have to wonder how much a person shouldn't really worry about it, or if 10 page threads devoted to the subject comes from a genuine concern about a game's quality and not simply a concern about messing with tradition.

Hey, I only started on page 9.

Cheers!

[Pantagruel's Friend]

As the person who actually implemented the controls in Grim

Now, that's an interesting turn of events in this thread :)

I can tell you Tim was very passionate about moving the genre forward. He didn't want any UI on screen, and really wanted the game to feel like a movie. He absolutely did NOT want a cursor on screen, and it had nothing to do with consoles. It has to do with story telling, and when it comes to that, Tim's one of the best.

It would be very interesting to hear a bit more about that, if you have the time. I started replaying Grim Fandango like a week ago - the controls just felt awful at first, but after mere 5-10 minutes, I had no problems with them (apart from hitting the wall at times when trying to enter the elevator, which is quite fitting to Manny's character, actually :) ), BUT! after reaching like half of the first year, I really don't see why it couldn't be point-and-click - to me, the Sam & Max games feel quite movie-like.

I understand the drive for innovation, but innovation for innovation's sake is not necessarily good. If you can share further details about the philosophy behind the control decisions in Grim, it would be very nice to read!

And, on a sidenote, now I can't get the gamepad idea from my head :)

[Lachlan_is]

What about eyetoy integration?!?

[Lachlan_is]

Then again that would be distracting, and confusing

[Diduz]

Someone's got to be willing to test out new ideas!

I am! :(
When you modified the point 'n' click interface with a "single-click system" and no inventory combinations for the Sam & Max Seasons I had no problem at all. It was a great idea to streamline the experience. Episodic gaming? I like it. Not-so-hard puzzles? I like them.
And I'm talking about your most powerful AND effective innovations. Whenever you proposed a drastic change in tradition I've always been curious to know what you had been cooking. That's the reason I love Telltale. I think Strong Bad was a unique experiment in mixing the Wii-casual-game style with a classic PC adventure gaming approach.
The problem with W&G is that this time the change is purely visual. I agree with the idea that good games aren't defined by their interface. What we have here? A direct control interface applied to a point 'n' click adventure game. :confused:
Tim made sure that at least 1/3 of the Grim puzzles were unconceivable in a point 'n' click interface. He managed to make the change necessary in the game-design.
I AM open to changes, but I like them when they're justified. You've always managed to justify them in the past, do that again. I played Crackpot's Insecticide and the multiple-type interactions didn't bother me, because the game was SO different from other things I tried... I just stopped worrying. I wouldn't even imagine Insecticide as a normal point'n'click.
I won't ask to ditch the direct control. I am asking for a different thing: justify the choice. "A more cinematic experience" doesn't sound a very strong reason to me. Time to change the game design too (the Insecticide one didn't work perfectly, though). ;)

[RMJ1984]

That is one of the major problem with many game companies today "Quote Playing a movie" i wanna play a game, not a movie, ergo no black bars, no other wierd stuff, Gaaaaammmmeeee not movie.


But yeah i also hope they change the puzzle structure og Sam & max, that is one of the best parts of episodic content, it gets old fast. it should feel like you are doing 3 puzzle and then the end, the goal should be to make it feel like one big puzzle. Just in the Scumm games.

And if you wanna improve, fine, improve point and click, get back the cursor from Sam & Max hits the road, where you right left and it changes, so you look at, uses, and so forth, that was very neat, also the ability to combine items. Improve there instead, of using keyboard, which again surves no purpose, when there are so many better things to improve. :)

[Kevin]

Tim made sure that at least 1/3 of the Grim puzzles were unconceivable in a point 'n' click interface. He managed to make the change necessary in the game-design.

I can assure you, Tim didn't make sure 1/3 of the puzzles were unconceivable in a point 'n' click interface. He had no such agenda about changing the interface so he could make puzzles that weren't possible with point 'n' click. He was passionate about "no interface".

While developing Grim, most people played using the number pad, and I still think this is the best way to play that game. You can play W&G entirely with the number pad (or WASD if your left handed). We even considered the idea of cutting the mouse from W&G since "keyboard only" felt better for a loooong time (obviously we didn't go that route, but it demonstrates how "open minded" we can be). But Robert ([TTG] Yare) really dug in to make sure the controls worked for as many people as possible.

Plus, if you haven't played it on a gamepad, you're missing a huge aspect of it. In the real world, dramatically more people play games on a game pad on a console (myself included). There's no reason not to try to make a game that works in that context as well as PC. I would have LOVED to play Grim on a big screen with a nice home theater. That would have rocked!

[Rather Dashing]

Considering my keyboard set-up, I'm gad a pointer was added. The mouse controls for the inventory really are the most comfortable for me. Using WASD to move and the mouse to select/manipulat inventory has become my default control method for W&G, and it's the one that feels the most "right".

[Pantagruel's Friend]

He was passionate about "no interface".

Let me try and understand this. Is the philosophy behind something like the following?
An interface, while facilitates communication and interaction, also acts as a barrier, dividing the world into two parts, "you" and the "other side". By getting rid of the interface, you can act more like you're part of the other side, and not a simple spectator / commander.

Sorry if it sounds lame - it's much clearer in my head :o

[Diduz]

Plus, if you haven't played it on a gamepad, you're missing a huge aspect of it. In the real world, dramatically more people play games on a game pad on a console (myself included).

I like the fact that you're so passionate about this. :D
Thanks for the clarification on Tim's attitude towards Grim.
I live in the real world too, I own a PS2 and I use it.
I have no doubt that the W&G interface works better with a gamepad (as a matter of fact, I even decided to ignore the mouse when I was playing, I went with the cursor keys/Q-E combination). You have to consider that not everyone will buy a joypad just to play Telltale games.

But I'll do that, because I don't want to lose the experience. To tell the truth, I had decided to buy one as soon as I realized you were going that way. :)

Speaking of which, the idea of an affordable gamepad (e.g. in a special offer through the shop) could be a nice idea. I don't think it will work for everyone, but it's worth a try.
Just remember to work on refreshing the find-three-items formula. ;)

[Kevin]

Just remember to work on refreshing the find-three-items formula. ;)

Heard loud and clear!

[Rather Dashing]

Oh, and I wouldn't say no to a cheap gamepad. I'm not completely sure if the gamepad experience, but there is a price for everything and I might bite at the right cost.

[Diduz]

Heard loud and clear!

LOL, ok. I'll shut up about that. :p

Do you think it could be possible to implement a character-relative control as an alternative option to camera-relative control? I tried to play Grim Fandango in both modes and I discovered that the first was more comfortable with a keyboard, while the second suited best my old (now broken) gamepad.

[werpu]

Now, that's an interesting turn of events in this thread :)



It would be very interesting to hear a bit more about that, if you have the time. I started replaying Grim Fandango like a week ago - the controls just felt awful at first, but after mere 5-10 minutes, I had no problems with them (apart from hitting the wall at times when trying to enter the elevator, which is quite fitting to Manny's character, actually :) ), BUT! after reaching like half of the first year, I really don't see why it couldn't be point-and-click - to me, the Sam & Max games feel quite movie-like.

:)

Actually speaking of Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4. The moment I started to play them I rushed out to buy a pc gamepad with dual analog sticks, almost impossible to get back them, but as soon as I have gotten them I didnt mind the controls anymore. What I am saying was that the controls back then for both games were perfect for using such a kind of gamepad (which was almost non existent in the pc area) but they felt really awkward with a keyboard mouse combination.

I just wonder how the controls of Wallace and Grommit feel with a gamepad. But I assume not so good, because they do not lend themselves that well to a gamepad combo. Btw. I personally think that for a third person view with a direct character control a gamepad is far superior to any mouse combination, it is pretty much reversed for fist person with a wsad combination. The perfect example for this probably is Dreamfall, which is only playable with a gamepad due to those issues!

[werpu]

Ok I have given xbox 360 the gamepad a try, and I must say the controls are a perfect fit.
I can recommend to everyone try a gamepad instead, it works better than the mouse wsad combo!

[Joe Newberry]

I used my MI preorder free game to get W&G episode 1. Honestly, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not pleased with the control scheme so far. In the tutorial and the first few scenes of the game, I found it frustrating that I couldn't move by clicking. I kept unconsciously trying to do so. I also kept feeling like right click should be bringing up my inventory or that the inventory should have a handy icon on screen.

I've found the autohotkey script for simulating mouse movement and I'll probably use that to play the rest of the game. Because I'm stubborn and I refuse to believe that we're going to have to go back to this mixed-control scheme. I know it's about making things cinematic, expansive, having better camera angles, etc., but the conspiracist in me says it's a change made solely to cater to console exclusive gamers.

I am extremely sad to hear this is how the new Monkey Island is going to be controlled as well. Part of the reason I wanted TTG to get the rights was so they could return the franchise to point and click, not make another EMI.

As others have said, I'm not opposed to all changes, just to changes that make the game feel more like a chore than an enjoyment. If this becomes the prevailing method for TTG series from now on, I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.

[Nightsurfer]

I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.
You do not have to wait: There are other companies which have successfully published mouse-only adventure games during the last few years, and some of them are really worth playing. - I just think it would be unfair to advertise them here within Telltale's forum. ;)

[Rather Dashing]

I used my MI preorder free game to get W&G episode 1. Honestly, I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'm not pleased with the control scheme so far. In the tutorial and the first few scenes of the game, I found it frustrating that I couldn't move by clicking. I kept unconsciously trying to do so. I also kept feeling like right click should be bringing up my inventory or that the inventory should have a handy icon on screen.
I definitely had the same issue. If I were you though, I'd personally go through the options before condemning it outright. It took me awhile to find a set of the new controls that fit for me.

The right mouse button doesn't bring it up, but the mouse wheel does. It's not perfect, and feels a bit off, but the trade-off in what Telltale can do does allow for some better environments within the same schedule.

AutoHotkey, personally, seemed like a clumsier implementation than Telltale's own system...an interesting one, sure, but one that doesn't cut it overall.

I've found the autohotkey script for simulating mouse movement and I'll probably use that to play the rest of the game. Because I'm stubborn and I refuse to believe that we're going to have to go back to this mixed-control scheme. I know it's about making things cinematic, expansive, having better camera angles, etc., but the conspiracist in me says it's a change made solely to cater to console exclusive gamers.

I am extremely sad to hear this is how the new Monkey Island is going to be controlled as well. Part of the reason I wanted TTG to get the rights was so they could return the franchise to point and click, not make another EMI.

As others have said, I'm not opposed to all changes, just to changes that make the game feel more like a chore than an enjoyment. If this becomes the prevailing method for TTG series from now on, I may have to give up on them and wait 5-10 years for another company to reintroduce mouse-only adventure games.[/QUOTE]

[Jenny]

I just downloaded the demo to see how I liked the controls. And although I'm not a huge fan of moving with the keyboard, I was able to get the hang of it.

The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.

Is this something that was fixed in the actual release? Or is the demo a true representation?

[light_rises]

The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.

Is this something that was fixed in the actual release? Or is the demo a true representation?

This is either some extreme cursor lag, a bug, or the computer itself. FWIW, there was definite improvement on my end between the demo and the final release when it came to cursor movement.

For now, try to dial back the demo's graphics settings, however many levels needed to make the cursor behave. If this doesn't help, post about it in the Support Forums and offer as much information about your computer (e.g. the specs and operating system) as you can.

[Armakuni]

AutoHotkey, personally, seemed like a clumsier implementation than Telltale's own system...an interesting one, sure, but one that doesn't cut it overall.
Well, it's just a script added on top of the game, it can't be expected to work perfectly. If someone had access to the source code and all that, I'm sure something much better could've been designed.

[Nightsurfer]

The part that is really impossible for me to deal with is the mouse. It floats around the screen so much I can't get it to click on what I want. When I move my mouse, the cursor should go along with it. I feel completely out of control of my mouse movement.
I agree with "light_rises": That is definitely related to your hardware. - Set the graphics level to "1" and everything should work just fine (unless you have a very old computer). Then increase the level step by step until the mouse pointer starts lagging again. - Or buy a new PC. ;)
The new "real" 3D looked introduced with Wallace & Gromit is much more resource demanding than Sam & Max, for example, where I could play the game with the "high" detail level and a screen resolution of 1024x768. - For Wallace & Gromit I either need to reduce the graphics level to "4" or set a resolution of 800x600 and go to level "6" to get the mouse to react as I expect.

[Avast!]

Will there be any possibility of future support for the 360 wireless controller? I'd really like to use a gamepad to play these games and the wireless is all I have.

[Pirateguybrush]

W&G does support the 360 wireless controller.

[LuigiHann]

Yeah. It doesn't work in the demo for some reason, but it works like a charm in the real game. I assume you have the same 360 wireless adapter that I so, I suppose

[Shale]

The thing is, what you have just described is very close to the system LucasArts used for Grim Fandango and Escape From Monkey Island, and it was terrible. Moving the character around was handled well enough, but the annoyance of having to walk up to an object or person before you could even tell whether or not it was a hotspot got old very quickly, it had its own evil twin to pixel-hunting in having to find that one sweet spot that would let you pick up the macguffin you needed, and sorting through multiple nearby hotspots was similarly irritating.

[DarthBo]

In other words, due to the inherent limitations of WASD, Gromit comes to the door at a left-angle. The door knob is not in focus. Okay. I strike the RIGHT ARROW key, briefly, but now Gromit is facing to the right of the door, and the door knob is still not in focus. I fiddle back and forth, trying to strike each key as briefly as possible but only the same result.
You can use Q and E to cycle through selectable items on screen. :)

But I agree it should be simpler (who thinks of using Q and E?)

[mmikkel]

I thought the controls were just fine. Much, much better than MI4. And I'm used to the old point and click of yore. If the game's gonna be 3D, you might as well have immersive controls.

[Avast!]

Yeah. It doesn't work in the demo for some reason, but it works like a charm in the real game. I assume you have the same 360 wireless adapter that I so, I suppose

Yeah I'm using the wireless adapter, but it doesn't wanna work for me (I've got the full game). Are there any setting you need to go into get the game to recognise that you're using the controller?

EDIT: Well, after a reformat and a clean install, the Wireless Controller now works, must have been some problems with my system.

[Hakobus]

So, I bought the first two episodes of W&G, and played through Fright of the Bumblebees using an Xbox 360 controller on the PC. And I hated it.

The character controls on the analog stick are horrible. I don't know if the controls are broken or just buggy, but the character often didn't seem to go in the direction I wanted them to, which is kind of an annoyance when you're using what is supposed to be direct controls.

Choosing hotspots with the right analog also didn't really work. Which hotspot was chosen when pushing in a direction on the stick seemed to be completely random at times. For example, I'm controlling Gromit right next to Wallace in the kitchen. I'm only able to select Wallace by pushing down on the left stick, pushing left and right scrolled through every hotspot except for Wallace.

The hassle with the controls made me want to just get things over with, instead of experimenting and exploring like with most adventure games. It made the game itself become a chore. Instead of "Let's see what happens if I..." it became "Nah, too much trouble, let's just get on with the quest."

As for the explanation given to us on the previously unseen "cinematic" angles and whatnot these new controls would afford us? What a load of crap. Every area was in actuality a two dimensional set, where all the movement happened in one dimension. Sure, you could walk into and out of the set, but that didn't really accomplish anything. I mean, if TT had really intended to make use of these cinematic angles, how about giving us a tracking camera in the whole downtown area?

And in all honesty, in any of the episode's areas you could've achieved much more visually if you had just limited character movement to left-right (making in-out movement automatic) and moved the camera around as the character moves on the set. The only area where this could've posed a problem would have been the hallway, since you had exits on all four walls, but then again, that's why you change camera angles. With that you could've also easily kept mouse control and the "cinematic" camera.

I'm hoping The Last Resort improves on these matters.

[Chevluh]

I got the first episode and I actually quite like the WASD control, even though for the first few minutes I always wanted to click to walk. My only two frustrations were that I couldn't scroll through the "what happened so far" text with the arrow keys, only the mouse wheel (unless I missed something), and the other one, which has more to do with the mechanics of the game, is that I can't just examine an object for a hopefully witty comment, just perform an action that may be examining it if it can't be activated, picked up or talked to.

[playclever]

Fascinating to get the insight on Grim, such an incredible game! And the controls worked well for the most part, mostly because of the expansive environments in that game. I remember the walk between the lift and the dog track taking ages, but the environment funnelled you into the correct path and it worked well.

The tight environments of W&G require pretty frequent interaction and not-all-that-much walking, so while I love leaning back in my chair and thinking when playing adventures, I am forced to crouch over a keyboard - something that's OK in action games where I'm on the edge of my seat, but not in the calmer environs of Adventure.

I'm not about to use a controller with my PC - it's not a console and I treat it very differently. I own a 360, PS2 and Wii, and if it's easier to kick back and play on those, then I will.

[werpu]

F
The tight environments of W&G require pretty frequent interaction and not-all-that-much walking, so while I love leaning back in my chair and thinking when playing adventures, I am forced to crouch over a keyboard - something that's OK in action games where I'm on the edge of my seat, but not in the calmer environs of Adventure.

If the chair is a problem, then play with a gamepad ;-)
Actually the game really plays better with the pad!

Btw. how do you do the leaning in chair thing if you have to move the mouse?
The arm length is pretty much the same in both hands.

[Rather Dashing]

If the response to a PC game is "It plays better with a gamepad", then something is wrong. It may be great for console fans, fine, but I'm playing my games on a PC and I'd prefer not to use a gamepad on my computer.

I've reached a "comfortable place" with Wallace and Gromit controls after trying all the different configurations, using the one that I've found makes the most use of my mouse. But I think it could still use some work, since it doesn't feel completely "right".

[[TTG] Yare]

I've reached a "comfortable place" with Wallace and Gromit controls after trying all the different configurations, using the one that I've found makes the most use of my mouse. But I think it could still use some work, since it doesn't feel completely "right".

If you have specific feedback about things like the layout or key bindings that would help get the controls closer to being "right", that information would be nice to have. Improvements based on your feedback might even make it in to MI or future titles!

[Pirateguybrush]

how do you do the leaning in chair thing if you have to move the mouse?
The arm length is pretty much the same in both hands.

You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.

[Nightsurfer]

You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.
It's amazing that others play adventure games just like me. - Except that I usually turn to the right, play the game using my left hand and use my right hand to eat potato chips or something similar. ;)
And for the record (once again): Even when using a gamepad you need both of your hands to play W&G and very likely also ToMI.

[Hakobus]

And for the record (once again): Even when using a gamepad you need both of your hands to play W&G and very likely also ToMI.
Well, you don't need both hands, since there aren't any action sequences or anything that requires lightning fast reflexes, but it is slow and tedious to try to play with the gamepad with just one hand.

[Pirateguybrush]

I'm thinking arrow keys, ctrl (look) and the 0 key (interact) on the numpad (and a couple other nearby keys for other required functions) could be used for one-handed control, switching to the mouse when required. Not as comfortable, but it wouldn't be too bad.

[[TTG] Yare]

THIS IS WRONG! Whilst W&G can be effectively played with WASD and QE, it still requires the lateral hand-move to 'ENTER' or 'SHIFT' to execute commands.

If you rest your fingers on the following keys, you can play the entire game without moving your hand:



[W]
[A] [D]
[Shift]
[Space Bar]


This pattern should be a very comfortable fit for most people.

[Nightsurfer]

Yare;134456']If you rest your fingers on the following keys, you can play the entire game without moving your hand: [..]
This pattern should be a very comfortable fit for most people.
Agreed; in case you are left-handed. (I will give this a try with "Muzzled!" next week.)
However, if you want to play with the right hand, that pattern does not work. And it is more difficult to find a good pattern for the right hand, as keyboard layouts vary for different countries, especially on the right side where you have special characters. Therefore I support the suggestion to let the player define the key mapping. It can't be that difficult to implement this feature!? - I would already be satisfied with a small text-file or something similar.

[werpu]

If the response to a PC game is "It plays better with a gamepad", then something is wrong. It may be great for console fans, fine, but I'm playing my games on a PC and I'd prefer not to use a gamepad on my computer.


Actually the harsh reality nowadays is that many pc games simply play better with a gamepad, first because they are also programmed for consoles and the control scheme is made for them and those who dont need mostly a combination of mouse+keyboard, normally wsad style!

Secondly there are cases where the mouse only controls simply fail due to their 2d nature, you need additional input for the third dimension!

(Mouse + WSAD is standard nowadays for first person 3d, while I personally think nothing comes close to a gamepad for third person with free floating cameras!)

[Rather Dashing]

Secondly there are cases where the mouse only controls simply fail due to their 2d nature, you need additional input for the third dimension!
...wait, how are analog sticks more "three dimensional"? You're traveling in a straight line, in one direction. Whether that command is given by moving a stick or holding down a key or two doesn't really matter.

[werpu]

...wait, how are analog sticks more "three dimensional"? You're traveling in a straight line, in one direction. Whether that command is given by moving a stick or holding down a key or two doesn't really matter.

They are more dimensional because due to their dual stick setup. usually it goes like that that the first stick is used for movement, the second stick is used for the camera control.

Very similar to a mouse WSAD setup where the keyboard is used for movement while the mouse is used for camera control (or view control)
I have used both systems. For first person view I prefer wsad because of being able to handle point focus more precicely. While third person free floating camera feels more superior with gamepads. I am not sure why, but I assume movement control is better with an analog stick instead of digital wsad keys in this case and the camera control works better with a stick as well (I still cannot figure out why it feels better but it does).

The classical example for this is Tomb Raider and also Dreamfall, both close to unplayable in their wsad setup while they play excellently with a gamepad attached. Also I would never every play Psychonauts without a pad, the keyboard mouse control feels very clumsy and unprecise compared to playing it with a pad!

[Rubarack]

^Now, lets not be giving Telltale any ideas, I don't want Sam and Max Season 4 to end up an FPS :)

More seriously though I thought I'd leave some feedback on the controls. The full game supported my wireless 360 pad, which was a huge improvement in comfort over the mouse and keyboard. I did also like the option to highlight all usable objects as pixel hunting is a personal bugbear of mine even with the larger object sizes of modern games, so for me the W&G controls were quite acceptable. For the people without a controller there's still a big question mark over usability though, and going back to Sam and Max the mouse only controls were still a lot more comfortable, so where possible I think this would still be the best solution.

To get to the ideal of mouse only controls on PC I had a few ideas.

1) Point and click. In the first episode there were only a few areas where you couldn't see the ground at all, so it would be nice where you could see the ground you could click on it to move. This wouldn't be a complete solution on it's own as it would be frustrating when you couldn't see the floor to have to reach for the keyboard, especially as these shots weren't particularly spectacular or significant from a gameplay perspective.

2) Screen edge icons

This may take a little extra setup in the composition of your shots, but in tight areas you could have icons to flit between opposite sides of the room so you could see everything by clicking back and forth on these

3) Offscreen interaction icons.

You could have it so holding the right mouse button brings up an icon for either every interactable in the room as a list down the side, just the offscreen ones down the side, or the offscreen ones relative to their existing position. From a usability perspective this is my favourite option.

4) Walkabout mode.

Clicking and holding on Wallace (or Gromit) could cause them to walk between all the interactive items in the room, in a preset order.

5) Panning/scrolling.

It's a little weird that despite using 3d there's still no way to control the camera, I realise some of the objects in the game won't so solid as they appear, but there may be some room here to twiddle with the controls. You could have the mouse wheel scroll out to show more of the screen, or have it so when a button is held the screen shifts to an overhead perspective more ideal for showing the ground. Or you could just have it so you can scroll about the screen by moving the cursor to the edges, without moving the central character, so you could click on an interactive and have them walk over to it.

Now these aren't fully fleshed out, some of them would require a bit more attention in every new scene to make sure they worked well and didn't break the illusion of the world the characters inhabit, but for the majority of PC gamers without gamepads (who I suspect make up a fairly large chunk of your audience)

[Leak]

If the response to a PC game is "It plays better with a gamepad", then something is wrong.
You mean after all those years PCs have supported joysticks, gamepads and whatsits only now we find out we've been doing it TOTALLY WRONG all those years? :(

I, for one, would never want to play Trackmania with the keyboard ever again... and that's PC only if you ignore the recent Nintendo DS port.

np: Tosca - Slow Hell (Session 6) (Dehli9 (Disc 2))

[werpu]

You mean after all those years PCs have supported joysticks, gamepads and whatsits only now we find out we've been doing it TOTALLY WRONG all those years? :(

I, for one, would never want to play Trackmania with the keyboard ever again... and that's PC only if you ignore the recent Nintendo DS port.

np: Tosca - Slow Hell (Session 6) (Dehli9 (Disc 2))
Actually this argument goes with pretty much every game in third person mode, I recently played Tomb Raider underworld, I instantly went for the pad control, then I reverted back to the standard PC keyboard + mouse scheme, I was horrible.
But it really depends, I currently play Drakensang and there the WSAD, mouse control scheme works really well (they also have point and click only as well additionally, but it does not work as well as the wsad combination)
But since this game is a party based RPG I dont really see how a pad could bring additional comfort, especialls since they managed to pull off the free floating camera controls quite nice!

[playclever]

You turn side-on to your desk, with your right side towards the desk. Mouse hand rests on the mouse, left hand holds a refreshing beverage of your choice. Lean back and rest your feet on your wall/desk/trashcan/footstool/significant other, and enjoy.

That is so precisely what I meant I couldn't help but chuckle :)

I don't think the WAG controls are terrible, they just feel less convenient / accessible than previous Telltale games, which I held in very high regard for the way they handled mouse control and camera angles. I'm guessing the change was brought in as a result of the tight environs of the house, which is fair enough, certainly mouse control would require some different camera angles.

For me selecting items on-screen is the biggest barrier to keyboard-only control. I just fired the game up to double-check, and I find that more often than not when I walk up to an item, nothing gets highlighted. Seems I can press E to switch between items - I didn't realise that when playing previously (not in the tutorial?) but still, clicking is still quicker and easier.

Oh, and the backseat director in me likes to make everything look as smooth as possible so 8 directional keyboard control doesn't cut it :D

Having had a good whinge, I should point out that I thought the WAG games so far have been excellent, and if I have to put up with sitting up straight and resting the refreshing beverage of my choice on the desk, then so be it!

[stemot]

It's like this, nobody had any problem with Sam And Max or Strongbads point and click controls. They worked fine. The new system has a lot of people complaining. The only need for these new controls is to cater for the console versions which benefit from having walking controls.
Telltale should just use point and click for the PC versions and give the console versions their own control system then everybody would be happy and we could play the adventure games on our PC how we have always played them and the way that works the best.

[Udvarnoky]

The only need for these new controls is to cater for the console versions which benefit from having walking controls.

I don't know why people keep saying this when it's been refuted time and time again.

[stemot]

I don't know why people keep saying this when it's been refuted time and time again.

Oh come on, why else would they change the controls from something that worked perfectly for every other one of their episodic games, to something more joypad friendly, at the same time they put out a game developed simultaniously for the 360?

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Oh come on, why else would they change the controls from something that worked perfectly for every other one of their episodic games, to something more joypad friendly, at the same time they put out a game developed simultaniously for the 360?

There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone. I'd suggest you read it through.

[[TTG] Yare]

It's like this, nobody had any problem with Sam And Max or Strongbads point and click controls. ... The new system has a lot of people complaining.

Ratios are pretty meaningless. Businesses live or die based on sales, not what percent of people complain about the game. A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.

That said, I'm not privy to our sales numbers. :)

[stemot]

Yare;137190']Ratios are pretty meaningless. Businesses live or die based on sales, not what percent of people complain about the game. A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.

That said, I'm not privy to our sales numbers. :)

I'm guessing Sam And Max has sold better than Wallace And Gromit :p

Also, surely the people complaining may not affect sales of the current product that introduced this system, but there's every chance if you use it for your next series people might be a little hesitant to be so quick to pay.

Then again, like you, I'm not privy to the sales numbers :)

There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone. I'd suggest you read it through.

To be honest, I've not read any that really convince me otherwise.
A new control system was obviously needed for the console version, that goes without saying, but you can't tell me a game like WaG or indeed any adventure game on the pc doesn't work best when using a simple point and click ala Sam And Max and there is nothing in any of the WaG episodes so far which wouldn't have been more comfortable using a mouse. Even the whirlpool scene at the end of Last Resort would have been comfortable using mouse.

If Telltale want to go foward with this control scheme with ToMI and future seasons of Sam and Max, I'm not sure if I'll be going along with them after ToMI unless they refine it to something that isn't awkward to control your character as the current system is on keyboard.

Don't get me wrong, I love WaG, especially the new episode. I just feel it could have been so much more user friendly with a full mouse control scheme.

[Nightsurfer]

Yare;137190']A game might have nobody complaining about it but only sell 100 copies, or there may be a "lot of people complaining" about it but it sells 10,000 copies.
And this is exactly why I do not plan to buy TMI, but play some of the old Monkey Island games instead.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

To be honest, I've not read any that really convince me otherwise.

I'm quite grown to the closer shooting of the W&G scenes now - it feels much more organic this way. And I can imagine that it's difficult to come up with a mouse-only scheme that works well in such an environment. I'm not sure how much compromise would have to be made on the camera angles to make a p&c solution convenient, and I was challenging this for a while - but in the end, I believe that TTG-Yare has checked a multitude of options, and if he found one that was generally convenient and intuitive, then he would have gone for it.

Also, I recently replayed one of the earlier Sam & Max episodes. It's generally fine with point and click, but when walking on the street outside the office, it was more than once that I reached for the keyboard as the constant clicking became a bit tedious.

[Nightsurfer]

One more comment on the "almost unlimited new possibilities" the new control scheme offers: While playing "Muzzled!" I wondered what the market place would look like if you look at it from a bird's eye perspective. - It seems to me that the police station and Mr. Paneer's shop should be very close to each other, as you walk around the fountain in the middle on your way from A to B. But why isn't it possible then to pass by the police station and enter the scene at Paneer's shop again? You need to go back the same way instead.

[stemot]

I'm quite grown to the closer shooting of the W&G scenes now - it feels much more organic this way. And I can imagine that it's difficult to come up with a mouse-only scheme that works well in such an environment. I'm not sure how much compromise would have to be made on the camera angles to make a p&c solution convenient, and I was challenging this for a while - but in the end, I believe that TTG-Yare has checked a multitude of options, and if he found one that was generally convenient and intuitive, then he would have gone for it.

Also, I recently replayed one of the earlier Sam & Max episodes. It's generally fine with point and click, but when walking on the street outside the office, it was more than once that I reached for the keyboard as the constant clicking became a bit tedious.

Even with the new tight angles, mouse control still would have been possible and for me, the better solution. There have been plenty of adventure games with tight angles and it always worked fine.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Even with the new tight angles, mouse control still would have been possible and for me, the better solution. There have been plenty of adventure games with tight angles and it always worked fine.

I can't recall any - but then again, I missed a lot of games between 2000 and 2006. Gimme a few examples and I check them out, okay? :)

[stemot]

I can't recall any - but then again, I missed a lot of games between 2000 and 2006. Gimme a few examples and I check them out, okay? :)

1. A Vampire Story
2. So Blond
3. Wanted:- A Wild West Adventure.

That's 3 off the top of my head, I know they are not full 3d adventures, but the concept of being able to mouse click in a cramped close environment applies.

I was going to say Dreamfall, but I think that's keyboard controlled :(

[Pantagruel's Friend]

1. A Vampire Story
2. So Blond
3. Wanted:- A Wild West Adventure.

That's 3 off the top of my head, I know they are not full 3d adventures, but the concept of being able to mouse click in a cramped close environment applies.

I was going to say Dreamfall, but I think that's keyboard controlled :(

OK, haven't seen any, I'll check at least one out.

Yes, Dreamfall is keyboard controlled - and it didn't really have composed shots while playing, it was free 3D.

[Hakobus]

There's at least half a dozen reasons listed in this thread alone.
The "big" reason being the more "cinematic" camera angles the new control scheme allow, which - judging by the first two episodes - is a load of crap.

Pretty much all movement inside any one scene happens on one axis (left-right) and while movement on the other (in-out) is present, it doesn't actually make any difference. And since hotspots are clickable and movement in essentially constrained to one axis, it would've been a simple matter to have a control system where if the player clicks anywhere on screen that isn't a hotspot, the character starts to move in that direction (and the camera tracks the character). Hell, this would probably have allowed for even more "cinematic" (which in Telltale's definition seems to be synonymous with close-up) camera angles than what was used in the first two episodes and it would only have limited an apparent freedom of movement that in reality isn't even there.