Alternate Controls?

[Lachlan_is]

As many of you know, there are difficulties with the arrow key controls, especially with changing angles. I'm just gonna put out a suggestion; Alternate Controls. Basically a few different controls to make thiungs easier, of course the first alternate control I'm putting foward is point-and-click as especially with the changing angles, point-and-click is conveniant, and telltale customers (I generally believe) are used to point and click.

Another alternate control I'm putting out there is keyboard button choice, what I mean is if for example you don't prefer pressing shift to bring up the inventory or if you want to control movement perhaps you want the keypad? I don't care.

Now being a Telltale game coming out in less than a week I obviously do not expect these changes to be made to this episode, I don't really expect it to even be changed this whole season, I don't really know how easy/hard it is to change game controls. This is just an idea I'm putting out there.

Now you've read this tear me apart with comments!

Thanks for Reading,
Lachlan_is

[dannythefool]

I would much prefer point-and-click too.

I bought all Sam&Max episodes on Steam, and I was really looking forward to Wallace and Gromit, but now I'm not so sure anymore...

[Shen-Zhi]

As many of you know, there are difficulties with the arrow key controls, especially with changing angles. I'm just gonna put out a suggestion; Alternate Controls. Basically a few different controls to make thiungs easier, of course the first alternate control I'm putting foward is point-and-click as especially with the changing angles, point-and-click is conveniant, and telltale customers (I generally believe) are used to point and click.

Another alternate control I'm putting out there is keyboard button choice, what I mean is if for example you don't prefer pressing shift to bring up the inventory or if you want to control movement perhaps you want the keypad? I don't care.

Now being a Telltale game coming out in less than a week I obviously do not expect these changes to be made to this episode, I don't really expect it to even be changed this whole season, I don't really know how easy/hard it is to change game controls. This is just an idea I'm putting out there.

Now you've read this tear me apart with comments!

Thanks for Reading,
Lachlan_is

what he said.

[Derrick]

I agree. It should be point & click. I was all set to pre-order, but I decided to try the demo first. I'm glad I did. The lack of point & click movement and the lack of the ability to adjust music/voice volumes seperately are deal breakers for me.

While it seems like it could be a decent enough game, I won't be buying it.

[Guy in a Box]

I thought it was okay, I learned to deal with the arrow keys. *shrugs*

[splash1]

Me too, the only reason Telltale did that was to make the game compatible for the XBox.

[[TTG] Yare]

Me too, the only reason Telltale did that was to make the game compatible for the XBox.

The Xbox controls had no bearing on the PC controls. Point-and-click wasn't an option for this property because it puts restrictions on the way our artists can frame their shots.

[dannythefool]

I thought it was okay, I learned to deal with the arrow keys. *shrugs*

I don't want to do that. I already have to use the keyboard 10 hours a day for work.

Right, personal opinion and all, but what did you expect? I'm here because I liked the other similar games that Telltale makes, and those let you use the mouse. Naturally, this attracts people who like to use the mouse. No big surprise there.

[Hakobus]

Yare;118740']Point-and-click wasn't an option for this property because it puts restrictions on the way our artists can frame their shots.
It wouldn't really pose any restrictions, had you done it the way Avihai suggests in this post (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118828&postcount=101).

[Baron Pedro]

I don't want to do that. I already have to use the keyboard 10 hours a day for work.

Right, personal opinion and all, but what did you expect? I'm here because I liked the other similar games that Telltale makes, and those let you use the mouse. Naturally, this attracts people who like to use the mouse. No big surprise there.

I always liked Telltale Games because of the humor, really. There was nothing that great about the point and click interface in any adventure games.

[[TTG] Yare]

It wouldn't really pose any restrictions, had you done it the way Avihai suggests in this post (http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118828&postcount=101).

We tried several novel control methods and they all felt terribly alien and unintuitive, or were seriously broken in some cases. The linked example would be both.

[t_a_o]

I too am disappointed about the key controls. Felt just wrong!

And what's with the both keyboard and mouse - make up your mind.
Either keyboard OR mouse. Using both in this game is very awkward.

It's not that I dislike keyboard control as such, but when I have to shift between walking with the keyboard and then choose with the mouse - it's too much work and I have to sit upright by my desk.

It's such a lovely game and I loved the demo and the graphic and everything else - but the controls were a real let-down for me. :(

Edit:
Just read elsewhere it can be played with keyboard alone - but still....it doesn't suit me well.

[RMJ1984]

one things thats gotta go if you keep keypad movements is his speed, its insane so fast he walks.

But yeah i gotta say i prefer point'n'click also, movement can be done well, but this is no were near the level and such as in grim fandango, so either it needs alot more tweaking or its gotta go

[Baron Pedro]

one things thats gotta go if you keep keypad movements is his speed, its insane so fast he walks.

But yeah i gotta say i prefer point'n'click also, movement can be done well, but this is no were near the level and such as in grim fandango, so either it needs alot more tweaking or its gotta go

It's much better than Grim Fandango. It's not perfect, but it's far and above that.

[Derrick]

Well, I changed my mind and purchased the game. Wanted to support TTG and make sure they don't tank over this game. Gotta make sure they get around to S&M3.

I remapped the controls to the Gravis Xterminator joystick using the gravis software. Much easier to use the gamepad to move then the keyboard. Diagonals are just not natural on a keyboard.

I set the analog control to emulate the mouse. But I probably won't use it because I also set the POV stick to use L/R as Q/E buttons to select between the onscreen trigger items. I prefer to use my mouse to find the hotspots, but the current controls make using a mouse un-natural, so...

I set the main row of 3 buttons to mouse button 1,2,3. I mapped another buton to Enter so I can easily pick YES, haven't figured out the NO button yet. Other buttons mapped to ESC and TAB. Don't need to map CTRL or SHIFT because the same thing is accomplished with mouse buttons 2,3.

EDIT: NO is the CTRL button, so I will have to map that.

Doing the above, makes the game playable for me.

BUT... They really need to do something about the music. Even if it requires a registry setting for now. Just some way to allow for the music to be adjustable compared to voice. The standard 3 settings music/voice/effects has always worked well in the past.

I highly recommend that TTG create some autohotkey scripts for different styles of joysticks. This will help people like me that will pass over the game because of the current controls.

[Marty]

waaaaa.
Keyboard didnt stop me from enjoying Grim Fandango.

[grimlog]

Yare;118852']We tried several novel control methods and they all felt terribly alien and unintuitive, or were seriously broken in some cases. The linked example would be both.

What about KB only controls? In the walkabout sections, Wallace looks at items of interest, just as in Grim Fandango and Dreamfall. Any chance that future episodes would allow for the object that Wallance/Gromit is looking at to be interacted with with a KB key (in addition to the existing mouse selection)? I realize that KB selection would not work with the in-car section in the demo, but it would be nice to be able to just lounge back and play with the KB in at least some of the sections.

[Lachlan_is]

How old a controller would work, cause I think ive still got one that will only go into the printer slot :)

[Lachlan_is]

I too am disappointed about the key controls. Felt just wrong!

And what's with the both keyboard and mouse - make up your mind.
Either keyboard OR mouse. Using both in this game is very awkward.

It's not that I dislike keyboard control as such, but when I have to shift between walking with the keyboard and then choose with the mouse - it's too much work and I have to sit upright by my desk.

It's such a lovely game and I loved the demo and the graphic and everything else - but the controls were a real let-down for me. :(

I know whatcha mean, though it'd be really good with something like this, (http://www.jandaman.com/adaptoid.shtml) it'd be frigging awesome!!

[Hakobus]

Yare;118852']We tried several novel control methods and they all felt terribly alien and unintuitive, or were seriously broken in some cases. The linked example would be both.
So it would be just like the control method you did go with. I mean, at least let us choose which terribly alien, unintuitive and broken method we want to use.

[[TTG] Yare]

So it would be just like the control method you did go with. I mean, at least let us choose which terribly alien, unintuitive and broken method we want to use.

The vast majority of people are fine with the control scheme as it is. Fleshing out and supporting an additional control scheme to try and satisfy every group of people just isn't feasible in a universe with limited time and resources.

[Jake]

What about KB only controls? In the walkabout sections, Wallace looks at items of interest, just as in Grim Fandango and Dreamfall. Any chance that future episodes would allow for the object that Wallance/Gromit is looking at to be interacted with with a KB key (in addition to the existing mouse selection)? I realize that KB selection would not work with the in-car section in the demo, but it would be nice to be able to just lounge back and play with the KB in at least some of the sections.

You can play through the game with just keyboard. There are many different keys for cycling which things Wallace/Gromit is looking at (eg if you're playing with WASD you can use Q and E to page around between hotspots on screen), and many different keys for interacting with objects, including space or enter.

[glenfx]

I was so looking for Wallace and Gromit, and i have to say i didnt like the controls at all.... im very disapointed.

Never expected the keyboard+shift... i mean..... SHIFT??? why didnt you pick an easyer key to use like the space bar?.... and why you need to open the inventory with the keyboard if you are going to use the mouse to select the items anyway??

You should have made both ways of control available as testing grounds and see what people liked the best, not alienating the players that like point and click controls.

Reinventing the wheel isnt always a good way to go, I really hope you use the point click mouse control for Sam and Max season 3 as that is the only franchise i would be putting my hopes on.

(god bless demos!!)

[Will]

There are many, many ways to open the inventory. I can think of at least 4 off the top of my head. If shift is too far away for you, try one of the other ways.

[Laserschwert]

and why you need to open the inventory with the keyboard if you are going to use the mouse to select the items anyway??
You can open the inventory with the middle mouse button (or in my case by clicking the mouse-wheel) and cycle through your inventory-objects with the mouse-wheel.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

You can open the inventory with the middle mouse button (or in my case by clicking the mouse-wheel) and cycle through your inventory-objects with the mouse-wheel.

... and while this method will surely take some getting used to for those people who don't play shooters, it will feel very natural and convenient afterwards - provided there are not more than 6-8 items in the inventory at the same time :)

[Maratanos]

I should also like to point out at this juncture that this is NOT the awkward, hideous, hard to control scheme of Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4. From playing the demo, I can say you will NOT find yourself struggling to turn corners and select the thing you want to select. I had misgivings about keyboard control myself, but apart from a few minor improvements I'd like to see, I'd say it works brilliantly.

[NickTTG]

You can open the inventory with the middle mouse button (or in my case by clicking the mouse-wheel) and cycle through your inventory-objects with the mouse-wheel.

I should also like to point out at this juncture that this is NOT the awkward, hideous, hard to control scheme of Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4. From playing the demo, I can say you will NOT find yourself struggling to turn corners and select the thing you want to select. I had misgivings about keyboard control myself, but apart from a few minor improvements I'd like to see, I'd say it works brilliantly.

gotta love the old forum members :p

[glenfx]

**Hah, i feel i was in quite a ranting mood up there**


I have a few problems with the controls and is not about getting used to the keyboard, I have played shooters half my life, I started playing since wolfenstein 3d appeared (im even replaying System shock 2 right now since I don’t have a video card to run Bioshock) but that is not the point.

If you feel it was THE only way to have a "cinematic framing" then i must say you didnt think it through really well and may be in desperate need of a kick in the behind. Having a black bar covering the top and bottom of the screen wasn’t just annoying also, it doesn’t mean you are watching a DVD movie, it means you are watching less of the detailes in the scene.

I still dont get it, why was the point and click control removed, and what was really gained from it? what was the purpose?

[Pantagruel's Friend]

I should also like to point out at this juncture that this is NOT the awkward, hideous, hard to control scheme of Grim Fandango and Monkey Island 4

I'll dig up Grim Fandango one day and check if the controls were really that bad - I remember hating them for not being the mouse at the beginning, but I can't recall them getting much in the way later in the game. Indeed, at some points I rather enjoyed direct controlling Manny :confused:

[NickTTG]

I still dont get it, why was the point and click control removed, and what was really gained from it? what was the purpose?

if you look at our previous games like Sam and Max or homestar, the cameras for navigation (the playable bits) are farther back and less cinematic to incorporate space for players to click on the ground because that's the only way they can get around environments. You might also notice that those games look a lot more "gamey." A DP for a movie wouldn't shoot shots like that because it wouldn't make sense to and its not very exciting. We are trying to stay true to a license known for amazing cinematics.

[[TTG] Yare]

Having a black bar covering the top and bottom of the screen ... means you are watching less of the detailes in the scene.

The black bars weren't put there for cinematic effect. They were put there so everybody who plays the game will be playing it at the same aspect ratio. Having a fixed aspect ratio allows our artists to frame their shots better, since they know exactly what is and isn't going to be visible.

[Leak]

So it would be just like the control method you did go with. I mean, at least let us choose which terribly alien, unintuitive and broken method we want to use.
I see someone never played a lot of the old Sierra adventures that were just as keyboard/keypad-navigated, except for the fact that you had to type commands instead of selecting/clicking on objects directly...

[Armakuni]

They're not the same. In those games, you clicked once and then the character would walk until you clicked again. No need to hold the keys down in those games.

But I remember thinking how cool it was to be allowed to use a mouse to move my character around. I missed typing in commands though, but that's different :p

[Leak]

If you feel it was THE only way to have a "cinematic framing" then i must say you didnt think it through really well and may be in desperate need of a kick in the behind. Having a black bar covering the top and bottom of the screen wasn’t just annoying also, it doesn’t mean you are watching a DVD movie, it means you are watching less of the detailes in the scene.
Is it just me, or was there actually NOT a big outcry over Mirror's Edge having a 16:9 aspect ratio, even on the PC?

[Leak]

They're not the same. In those games, you clicked once and then the character would walk until you clicked again. No need to hold the keys down in those games.

But I remember thinking how cool it was to be allowed to use a mouse to move my character around. I missed typing in commands though, but that's different :p
Believe it or not, some of those games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown) didn't even support a mouse...

[Armakuni]

I obviously know that :p Would be hard to miss after playing through all of them a million times :D

What I meant was I remember how cool I thought it was when they finally allowed you to use mouse controls in the games. And I don't like how the trend now seems to point in the other direction. Well, trend might be a strong word, not that many adventure games use keyboard controls yet. But there are a few.

[Hakobus]

I see someone never played a lot of the old Sierra adventures that were just as keyboard/keypad-navigated, except for the fact that you had to type commands instead of selecting/clicking on objects directly...
Who was this someone? I've played through most of Sierra's old adventure catalogue - though through most of the games just once since they didn't really offer anything worth coming back for.

And are you saying that because people had to cope with slow and broken control schemes back in the day, it means they should cope with them in 2009?

[Molokov]

I didn't have a problem with the WASD/Shift + Mouse combination in the demo.

One question though: How do you PAUSE the game? Spacebar just skips dialogue lines (like right clicking) - in S&M/SBCG4AP it was the pause button...

Edit: I did like how when I tried to hit Esc part way through a conversation/cut scene, it came up with "Tea Break! Controls currently not available". Very funny :)

[[TTG] Yare]

One question though: How do you PAUSE the game?

You pause the game by hitting ESC to bring up the menu. If you hit ESC during dialog, it just pauses the dialog as you saw.

[Maratanos]

I'll dig up Grim Fandango one day and check if the controls were really that bad - I remember hating them for not being the mouse at the beginning, but I can't recall them getting much in the way later in the game. Indeed, at some points I rather enjoyed direct controlling Manny :confused:

No, it really was pretty bad. Turning corners and selecting things with that engine was terrible, and the only options for how the arrow keys mapped were camera-centric and person-centric, which, given the environments they chose, translated to bad and worse.

[dannythefool]

Believe it or not, some of those games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Quest:_Quest_for_the_Crown) didn't even support a mouse...

I played all of the older King's Quest games on an Atari ST, and they all supported the mouse. At some point, new games in the series only supported the mouse.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Is it just me, or was there actually NOT a big outcry over Mirror's Edge having a 16:9 aspect ratio, even on the PC?

Well, Mirror's Edge has a different target audience, I'd assume more of them migrated to widescreen displays already. Personally, I won't buy that one before it either has a 4:3 patch or I buy a bigger monitor :)

No, it really was pretty bad. Turning corners and selecting things with that engine was terrible, and the only options for how the arrow keys mapped were camera-centric and person-centric, which, given the environments they chose, translated to bad and worse.

Hmmmm, seem to recall the cornering problem - although it was pretty funny sometimes. Had no problem with interaction, though - not after the first five minutes. Now I'll definitely try it ;)

[leon101]

Well, Mirror's Edge has a different target audience, I'd assume more of them migrated to widescreen displays already. Personally, I won't buy that one before it either has a 4:3 patch or I buy a bigger monitor :)



Hmmmm, seem to recall the cornering problem - although it was pretty funny sometimes. Had no problem with interaction, though - not after the first five minutes. Now I'll definitely try it ;)

Well, when you get used to one control scheme, it can be hard to get used to another when it changes.

[Armakuni]

I was wondering - is it in any way possible to make the mouse emulate the the movement keys? So that you move the mouse to move the character... maybe there are some applications for stuff like this?
I really want to play these games but I cannot keep keys pressed down like this game requires, which is the main reason I *really* dislike this control scheme.

Or maybe there is some way to map a joystick (not a gamepad, can't use those for the same reason I can't use a keyboard to play), so that you could move the character around with a joystick.

I'd love to play this and the following games, but these damn controls makes it really hard for me.

Adventure games was really one of the last genres I love that I can play, and it really sucks how even an adventure game will use keyboard controls now :(

And the worst part about it is that it makes me worry I might not be able to enjoy future Sam & Max titles. The things I suggested here (which are the only possible ways I could kind of enjoy playing this game) are far from practical and playing will to some degree become a chore.. but these controls leave me with little option. So if they decide to change Sam & Max to use these controls, then I'm not sure what I'll do.. might have to write Telltale off and forget all about these games.

Now, I obviously don't expect them to base their decision on what control scheme to use on the very few people with 'hand disabilities' (or whatever you'd call it), I'm just giving you the perspective of one guy affected by that.

[Leak]

Or maybe there is some way to map a joystick (not a gamepad, can't use those for the same reason I can't use a keyboard to play), so that you could move the character around with a joystick.
The game supports gamepads, so I'm not sure if it wouldn't also work with a joystick, but if it doesn't there's XPadder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xpadder) if you want to map a joystick to keys.

And the worst part about it is that it makes me worry I might not be able to enjoy future Sam & Max titles. The things I suggested here (which are the only possible ways I could kind of enjoy playing this game) are far from practical and playing will to some degree become a chore.. but these controls leave me with little option. So if they decide to change Sam & Max to use these controls, then I'm not sure what I'll do.. might have to write Telltale off and forget all about these games.
They said several times now that they chose these controls because of the cinematic camera views used in the game where you often don't even have areas on the screen you could click on for moving around.

I doubt the same is going to happen in a new season of Sam & Max.

np: Sten - Daylight (The Essence)

[Armakuni]

Yeah, I've read those responses but I still can't help but worry a bit.

Thanks for the suggestion btw, I'll try that (but first need to buy a joystick).

[Armakuni]

Well, I tried using an old Amiga joystick (using an adapter I have) and it works. Still quite a bit more trouble than I'd have using the mouse, but I've already said that a million times so it's getting redundant by now :p

Anyway, better than nothing, I guess.

[Lachlan_is]

I still reckon wiiware was the way to go...

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Well, when you get used to one control scheme, it can be hard to get used to another when it changes.

OK, I dug up Grim Fandango. Now I remember - the camera relative option was a no-go due to the behavior when changing cameras, and the character relative option really felt strange at first. However, it took me only a few minutes to get used to it (I actually played halfway through the first year :) ), there's a good rhythm to it, and it would even feel convenient - if it wasn't for the game's damn stupid collision control. Whenever I hit an object, Manny bounces off, turns seemingly at random, and it plainly breaks the game's rhythm, I need to regain footing, and that becomes frustrating quite fast in narrow spaces. So all in all, that system doesn't work really well, I have to agree...

[Will]

Well, I tried using an old Amiga joystick (using an adapter I have) and it works. Still quite a bit more trouble than I'd have using the mouse, but I've already said that a million times so it's getting redundant by now :p

Anyway, better than nothing, I guess.

Hah, seriously? That's awesome that it works. I guess the joystick is so old that it basically inputs keyboard controls. Nifty!

[Armakuni]

Oh, no - I forgot to mention that I had to use Joytokey (a freeware keyboard to joystick mapper) for it to work. But yes, it's cool that it works perfectly this way.
Only wish Amiga joysticks had more than one fire button :D

[OMA]

if you look at our previous games like Sam and Max or homestar, the cameras for navigation (the playable bits) are farther back and less cinematic to incorporate space for players to click on the ground because that's the only way they can get around environments. You might also notice that those games look a lot more "gamey." A DP for a movie wouldn't shoot shots like that because it wouldn't make sense to and its not very exciting. We are trying to stay true to a license known for amazing cinematics.

That's the best explanation so far :)

In my case, I don't have a problem with the controls since I play with my gamepad (luckily my old Logitech pad is natively supported), but the game should maybe have better support for other brands, since it seems other people are having to do relatively complex things such as keyboard mapping to get their joysticks/gamepads working.

In my case, I prefer using gamepad over the mouse, since I have some problem in my hands/arms and clicking the mouse buttons hurts (that sucks!) but gamepad buttons are softer so I have no problem.

[Armakuni]

You're the exact opposite of me! I don't have much trouble using a mouse, but using keyboard keys tire my fingers out in seconds. And my thumbs are pretty useless so there's no way I can use a gamepad.

Anyway, it really does suck, doesn't it; painful fingers when playing games :(

[Leak]

In my case, I prefer using gamepad over the mouse, since I have some problem in my hands/arms and clicking the mouse buttons hurts (that sucks!) but gamepad buttons are softer so I have no problem.
Ouch. :(

But if your mouse is some months old you might want to open it up and look at the microswitches for the buttons - I've had more than one mouse where the small piece of plastic pressing the switches had made a "groove" into the microswitch so it needed more and more force over time to register a click...

Sticking a small piece of paper between switch and mouse button does wonders in such a case... :)

[LuigiHann]

Yeah, it sucks that I own 3 different PC gamepads and none of them are supported.

[Armakuni]

Tried using Joy2key or something similar? Worked fine with my old Amiga stick :)

[salty-horse]

You can play through the game with just keyboard. There are many different keys for cycling which things Wallace/Gromit is looking at (eg if you're playing with WASD you can use Q and E to page around between hotspots on screen), and many different keys for interacting with objects, including space or enter.

Jake, is there a keyboard equivalent to the right mouse button? (Required for the zoomed-in "Right Click to Exit" sections)

And while in that zoomed-in mode, W and S make a sound as if the inventory is cycling, but it seems only to select a single item when I have many in the inventory. Is this how it's supposed to work?

Other than that, the keyboard controls are quite comfy :)

[Kraken]

I would really appriciate mouse controls in style of Sam & Max. Keyboard+mouse is just awkward, not needed layer in adventure game while playing it on PC. I really enjoy being able to play adventure game just by one hand on the mouse, its more convenient and casual.

Mouse only option please...pretty please?

[yogsodoth]

Now, I agree with some of the earlier posters - this control scheme is nowhere near as broken as Grim Fandango's was. And having paid for the entire game, I really don't have a leg to stand on when it comes down to complaining. But here goes:

Sam and Max was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Fantastic game, well put together, easy controls, and puzzles and dialog that kept you laughing for days on end. Absolutely brilliant, brilliant game. Am I foaming at the mouth?

SBCG4AP: Not so much. Not sure whether it was the IP, the look, or what-have-you, it just didn't turn my crank the way Sam and Max did. Possibly because I don't find Homestar Runner as amusing as I find Sam and Max.

Wallace and Gromit: Brilliant game, again, absolutely fantastic implementation of Aardman's IP and beautiful to boot. Except for one teeny, tiny thing - the control scheme. And small as the irritation factor is, it continues to niggle at me, gradually becoming the plank in my eye.

Yeah, I know, it's been said. The controls are awkward, but the best that could have been achieved given Aardman's IP stipulations. But did anyone actually sit down with Aardman and discuss this in detail? Could any negotiation have been done on this? Because these controls are wack, man, utterly wack.

I don't expect to be frigging around with the keyboard playing an adventure game, it ruins the immersive qualities of the genre. I especially hate running into obstacles I can't see because the camera angle doesn't present me with a good perspective on the room or area I'm in. Now I know these camera angles are important to Aardman, but in the end, whats more important? A game that succeeds because it allows the user to do what they need to do with a minum of fuss, or a game that is 100% true to the IP but has a cripplingly bad control scheme? And it's a shame, too, because in *all* other respects I would say W&G is Telltale's best work to date.

Someone needs to sit down with Nick Park and the lads and lasses at Aardman and explain to them that while their precious camera angles are important to their IP, they may have to compromise a bit; otherwise, they are inhibiting the success and enjoyability of their licensed product. Nobody's saying the cinematic camera angles will have to be done away with entirely, it's just that insisting on them to the exclusion of user-friendliness is going to cost in terms of reviews and sales. The ultimate arbiter of every computer product is UX, and frankly, the keyboard controls are a killer in that respect.

[LuigiHann]

Tried using Joy2key or something similar? Worked fine with my old Amiga stick :)

Mmm. I ended up mapping the left control stick to the arrow keys, and held the controller in my left hand, and just used the mouse as normal with my right hand. Worked out pretty well that way :p

[grimlog]

You can play through the game with just keyboard. There are many different keys for cycling which things Wallace/Gromit is looking at (eg if you're playing with WASD you can use Q and E to page around between hotspots on screen), and many different keys for interacting with objects, including space or enter.

Thanks for the info. Is all this mentioned in the tutorial? It wasn't mentioned in the demo and I assumed the tutorial was simply the demo.

[Will]

We just talked about the standard controls in the tutorial. The thought was that if we went in and said "To open your inventory, press shift. Or R. Or I. Or +. Or Center Mouse. or just scroll through the items using the mousewheel" people would get overwhelmed and confused.

[Falzo]

We just talked about the standard controls in the tutorial. The thought was that if we went in and said "To open your inventory, press shift. Or R. Or I. Or +. Or Center Mouse. or just scroll through the items using the mousewheel" people would get overwhelmed and confused.

I can easily understand that.

However it would be nice if there was some cheat sheet to customize one's control method with the available keys.

[Will]

Unfortunately, we don't have anything in-game, but we have a handy dandy websheet: http://www.telltalegames.com/wallaceandgromit/controls

[salty-horse]

Thanks Will!

Will you perhaps consider a adding General Cancel/Close button for the left-hand configuration?

[Falzo]

Many thanks. I looked in the game, but did not think to go look on the website.

[GozzoMan]

Will, is there a similar table listing gamepad controls?

So to be able to configure xpadder to mimic as closely as possible the originally intended gamepad experience with a not-supported pad.

Thank you.

[Chrisse]

If I had known that it was keyboard controls in this game, I probably wouldn't have bought it. Stupid as I was I bought the whole season without testing. Keyboard controls really doesn't fit with adventure games, it feels awkward to have to run around. It feels totally unnecessary nowadays and it was one of the reason I stopped playing lucasarts games. I don't buy the whole cinematic view excuse, you could as easily have made every surface clickable and made the characters walk as close as possible.

I still haven't played WG all the way through yet, despite always, always playing adventure game non-stop when I get them.

I really hope this doesn't happen with S&M, since I would really not want to stop playing with my favorite cartoon bunny and dog.

[Will]

Will, is there a similar table listing gamepad controls?

No, each gamepad tends to have different controls, and we haven't done custom mapping for them. You just kind of need to poke around and figure out what does what. It shouldn't take more than a minute or two though.

[GozzoMan]

Ehm, my point is that my gamepad does NOT work, if I poke it, it stares me back blankly and vaguely perplexed...

I used xpadder to map keyboard controls to it, and I already have a working configuration, but I'd like to try the controls TT designed and intented for the gamepads.

For example, what do supported pads use to cycle selectable objects? Hat's (d-pad's) left & right? Upper left & right triggers? Right upper & lower triggers? Two of the (usually) four right-side "fire" buttons?

[Derrick]

How about something as simple as a small on-screen compass that pops up at the cursor if you hold the mouse button down for a second or 2. Then as you drag the mouse around the circle, they move in that direction the same way the keys would work. The compass would reain on the screen for a couple seconds after releasing the mouse button, just so you can easily pick another direction if stuck in a corner or something.

Something like this poorly drawn picture.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6190/compk.jpg

You could even make their eyes follow the cursor. :rolleyes:

Just a thought.

[[TTG] Yare]

How about something as simple as a small on-screen compass that pops up at the cursor if you hold the mouse button down for a second or 2. Then as you drag the mouse around the circle, they move in that direction the same way the keys would work. The compass would reain on the screen for a couple seconds after releasing the mouse button, just so you can easily pick another direction if stuck in a corner or something.

We toyed around with this idea and several other novel control concepts, and they're terribly unintuitive. Also as our CEO mentioned in a recent interview, driving the characters around directly provides a more immersive experience than any sort of mouse movement could provide.

[Fallenkal]

I played all of the older King's Quest games on an Atari ST, and they all supported the mouse. At some point, new games in the series only supported the mouse.

Two things on that note.

The early King's Quest/Space Quest/Leisure Suit Larry games were games that involved you to type commands to perform actions. So it really didn't make sense to have it point and click. In King's Quest 4, they added a point and click movement interface, but when you still had to type so much... it wasn't used.

Secondly, fan bases have recreated King's Quest 1-3 (there could be more classic Sierra games by now) with full point and click interface and even voice. Even Sierra did it with some of their older games.

[Fallenkal]

Yare;120744']driving the characters around directly provides a more immersive experience than any sort of mouse movement could provide.

It really doesn't... I wish it did...

If anyone here played SWG... I'm pretty sure the said that about the NGE controls too... and look how that turned out!

I also find it weird that there is so much emphasis put on the diversity of the new control system. Clearly there's been a lot of work put into it, but why not just throw the die-hard old school players a bone?

A small, optional addition, that puts this game in a similar, familiar playing field with your other games.

[[TTG] Yare]

Clearly there's been a lot of work put into it, but why not just throw the die-hard old school players a bone?

I would have liked to whip up a point-and-click option for you guys. But as I've mentioned already: choosing point-and-click for a control scheme imposes draconian restrictions on how your scenes and cameras look.

- W&G has a control scheme that allows you to experience the game world.

- Point-and-click games have a game world that fits within the constraints of the control scheme.

Each has their place.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Yare;120759']I would have liked to whip up a point-and-click option for you guys. But as I've mentioned already: choosing point-and-click for a control scheme imposes draconian restrictions on how your scenes and cameras look.

After having played through like 40% of the game, I have a hard time believing that. I often play for minutes without using the keys - I just interact my way through the scenes, as the interaction commands make the characters move to the spot. It's not even intentional - it just feels natural this way, and I snap out of this mode only after clicking the floor several times before realizing I need to use the keys.

I can accept this control method, and sometimes it does add to the immersion (morese when controlling Gromit), but I just don't see it as necessary.

[Kraken]

WASD in my opinion only works well if the environment moves with the camera (like in FPS). With W&G Camera angles change between rooms/scenes and WASD doesn't stay consistent (at least how I picture the spaces) between scenes.

Yes, I would like adventure games to stay with the mouse, because it works very well.

[Imapus Sylicker]

Well, I bought the game, since I played through both Grim Fandango (me favourite) and Monkey Island 4 with absolutely no problems whatsoever apart from breaking three computers in frustration. On the fourth, I managed alright.

And while I do understand all these "camera limitations" and stuff, I sincerely hope you're telling the truth, and it had nothing to do with the xbox, or the playstation, or the master system, or something like that... if it DID, however... well, I gotta ask... are you turning into LucasArts? Or Metallica, or whatever? Turning your back on everything that made you AFTER you turned into something worth noticing?

Edit: Crap, Deja Vu. I just read this quote and you know what it reminds me of?

Yare;120744']Also as our CEO mentioned in a recent interview, driving the characters around directly provides a more immersive experience than any sort of mouse movement could provide.

"The controls put you smack in Manny's world", or whatever similar sh*t LucasArts was spewing around at the time.

I'm packing my bags, just in case.

[Lachlan_is]

what about wii classic controler integration? with a usb adapter you can make it work on computer!

[David Giles]

"The controls put you smack in Manny's world", or whatever similar sh*t LucasArts was spewing around at the time.
The problem with Grim Fandango was implimentation not the underlying idea (which actually in fundamentally different as this uses the mouse to select objects not the location of the character). The problems with Manny not focusing on the desired objects, or walking off in odd direction when the camera jumped just don't apply here.

Plus this game actually takes advantage of the freedom of keyboard movement, Wallace's house actually feels like a home not a theatre set, with a few props around the edges. Its also more intimate as they don't have to show the ground all the time there are close ups, allowing dialogue to bend in more seamlessly with exploration (which fits in with the streamlined dialogue system).

Either they'd have to sacrifice that for everyone or have two sets of camera angles, and some of the locations (I can't see the front room, with the table in the middle working with point and click) so people can choose.

I didn't like it when I heard about it, but as a package everything fits together neatly, and I think it feels more natural.

[xelanoimis]

Well, when such a discussion gets so long, it should mean something for the game's developers. On short, if you want to please the PC adventure players, you must support a point'n click interface. Even shorter, MOUSE is GOOD, KEYBOARD is BAD, MOUSE+KEYBOARD is even WORSE!

About your concern for framing and point'n click interface. You think that if you don't see the floor to click on, you can't move. What if you allow the player to click on the sides of the frame to move in that direction? And with a special looking cursor, that could do the trick. And it could easily be integrated with the rest of the interface. What do you all think about this?

I started to play and it was a pretty good while until I found out I can't click on the floor for the classic movement style. I just clicked from hot spot to hot spot and this worked pretty well for a while. I also don't thing the need for move around freely is crucial for an adventure game. more important is to easily find and access the hot spots.

So PLEASE consider adding a MOUSE ONLY solution in your further releases. Keyboard+mouse combination is good only for shooters and hardcore gamers.

-----------
Now another observation:
I think you wanted to point the game a little in the casual games direction. That's based on the little config options in the menu and on the "auto-save" feature. Anyway I must say you are now somewhere in between. Not classic adventure and not true casual.

I was "confused" by the save system. Casual games usually have a named profile, to track the saves. I wanted to show someone the beginning of the game and I lost the progress, except for an early bookmark. And saving bookmarks is not accessible enough - and I fear there's a very limited number of them (haven't tried it to consume all yet).

Also, you can have a few more options in the menu. The already mentioned music/fx volume. I had to use the subtitles so I can lower the volume and still understand the speech. You can have an "advanced" page if you want to keep it simple for casual players.

Not to mention the casual player using a keyboard and a mouse in the same time...

-----------
Still, the game has great value - that's why I posted about these few things that would make it even better. You really did well with the W&G style, speech, animations, etc. I can't pronounce myself about the story yet (I haven't finished it).

Alex

[Rather Dashing]

MOUSE is GOOD, KEYBOARD is BAD, MOUSE+KEYBOARD is even WORSE!
I disagree with this assertion, personally. If they feel they need to have keyboard integration, then I find it far more comfortable to be able to use the mouse. Especially when I can use the mouse for movement through hotspots, when the inventory controls with the mouse and mouse wheel are so much more comfortable than everything else, and when there actually ARE keyboard-only control options available to people playing W&G.

I still do feel like a mouse-only control option is the most comfortable, but if it's impossible, than I'd still like to include the ability to utilize my mouse for a large majority of the control anyway.

[deadlinejon]

WHYam i the only one who LIKES the way they do things? if you hate it, DONT PLAY IT. its that simple.

[glenfx]

If they feel they need to have keyboard integration, then I find it far more comfortable to be able to use the mouse. Especially when I can use the mouse for movement through hotspots, when the inventory controls with the mouse and mouse wheel are so much more comfortable than everything else.

I still do feel like a mouse-only control option is the most comfortable, but if it's impossible, than I'd still like to include the ability to utilize my mouse for a large majority of the control.
That would have been a great solution but hey, it’s "impossible" to do, right?.


if you hate it, DONT PLAY IT. its that simple.
is not that simple because I don’t hate the work of Telltale, I don’t hate Wallace and Gromit, I just hate the controls that where implemented.
I personally raved because for one stupid thing I won’t play something I like.
And I’m not going to force myself into liking something just because its telltale and W&G (I’m not a blind fan), so I prefer not to buy the games instead.

[deadlinejon]

is not that simple because I don’t hate the work of Telltale, I don’t hate Wallace and Gromit, I just hate the controls that where implemented.
I personally raved because for one stupid thing I won’t play something I like.
And I’m not going to force myself into liking something just because its telltale and W&G (I’m not a blind fan), so I prefer not to buy the games instead.
well then thats an entirly diffrent matter. sorry for being harsh then.

[xelanoimis]

And if I didn't like it I wouldn't be writing in their forums.

TellTale is one of the few adventure developers and we all want them to do their best for us. If people don't say what they want, they'll never get it. Feedback from players is very important to developers, or at least it should be. Of course every developer has the final decision on his games and that will affect sales and popularity.

[[TTG] Yare]

About your concern for framing and point'n click interface. You think that if you don't see the floor to click on, you can't move. What if you allow the player to click on the sides of the frame to move in that direction? And with a special looking cursor, that could do the trick. And it could easily be integrated with the rest of the interface. What do you all think about this?

Either the game would need an actual frame around it you could click on, or every shot would need to be framed so that there was nothing actually clickable in the margins. Either way it would require a lot of rework and is far more complicated to use than plain old WASD.

[xelanoimis]

Yare;123248']Either the game would need an actual frame around it you could click on, or every shot would need to be framed so that there was nothing actually clickable in the margins.

No additional frame border is needed and there's no problem if there are active objects there.
If there's an object there, you click on it to use it, like you do now, and the player walks there like it does now.

If there's no active object under cursor when you click on the side (a few pixels close to the screen's edges) you can find a corresponding position on the floor (on the pathgrid) and make the player walk there. And it doesn't even have to be an exact position - you could use a waypoint in the opposite side of the room or so.

It just needs to be a valid way to access the objects in the rest of the room, to bring them in view.

Of course, it's just an idea and I didn't study all the frames to see if it's always possible - you know better. I just wished to be able to play it with mouse only. If not, i think I'll just use my new wireless 360 controller on PC :)

Thanks!
Alex

[Pirateguybrush]

Just stopping in to also register my discontent with the control scheme. I don't see why being able to click everywhere and having the characters attempt to walk to the nearest spot would be too problematic, and shouldn't cause problems based on the camera angles. It looks like you've got the pathfinding AI down already, seeing as you can click on an item on the other side of the room and they'll make their way there.

[seanvanaman]

just a couple things, without getting too entrenched in the ever-deepening "but why couldn't you just!" conversation...

first and foremost, we hear ya. we really do. we set out to make wallace and gromit the most cinematic experience yet from telltale, and i hope you're enjoying the fruits of those labors. i won't repeat anything (although im about to) that's already been said by other telltalians here or elsewhere, but having direct control over the character allowed us to do that.

any system that requires pointin'n'clickin to get somewhere is intrinsically tied to where the camera is -- as your screen is a 2d plane and we've gotta know what you're looking at so we can try to determine where you're clickin. the problem is, throughout production, our cameras are changing all of the time. which means scrapping and repeating a boat load of work tied to character movement every time that happens. regardless, this has been said before and is just one of the myriad of reasons we didn't go with point and click in the pc version, and while i'm sure this won't satisfy those with a dark, seething hatred for the control scheme (which i think there are few...) i hope you'll accept it as reasonable and simply the way it is.

and while im currently playing and replaying and replaying ep 103 (muzzled) with the keyboard and mouse (and not because i have to), i will say: if you have the opportunity, play with a controller (especially one that's got an analog stick) and hopefully those who have disagreed with the idea that "direct control provides an immersive experience" will peal the scorned husks from their angry hearts, and, with a solitary tear, see that walking wallace and gromit around truly is fun.

and yes, you don't have a controller (which i feel ya on because i remember what it was like to not have things like controllers) yes, the xbox comes WITH a controller *gasp!* but i promise we haven't completely sold out, turned into the monster-mega-corporation we said we never would, and now wait patiently for our oversized novelty check to be hand delivered from the hardware manufacturer we're in bed with.

i saw someone on another thread enjoyed the controls (yippee!) and i'm glad you guys are willing to burn the calories to say you didn't. but keep on playing, try to get used to what we've done with WG, realize we thought real hard about it, and hopefully enjoy the actual STUFF you're using the controls to get to.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

the problem is, throughout production, our cameras are changing all of the time. which means scrapping and repeating a boat load of work tied to character movement every time that happens. regardless, this has been said before and is just one of the myriad of reasons we didn't go with point and click in the pc version

I may be sloppy, but I can't remember this argument. So, does this mean you've saved a lot of effort here compared to Sam and Max?

[seanvanaman]

ha, no... you can see the floor and sam and max (and in general, the gameplay portions are shot from further away) making the camera issue moot.

but like i said, it's one of MANY reasons we settled on a direct control scheme.

[Tjibbbe]

I just want to jump in and say that not everyone hates the controls. As I move around a lot, I don't have acces to a controller all the time, so most of the time I use the keyboard only-method. And yes, it was weird at first, but I very quickly became used to it. It saddens me that so many (well, at least those who post a lot) can't really look past this and look at the benefits of the new control-method. It makes the game so much more immersive, not only because you directly control the characters, but because of the weird, cinematic and unexpected(!) camera-angles. It just seems like a huge, huge step forward to the 'theatre stages' from previous Telltale-games, which was getting kind of old. A lot of people are just really scared of new things, I guess, but the SCUMM-style control-methods weren't perfect, even at the time. It was the best you could do with the available technology back then. And that was, you know, fifteen year ago. The production values are just so much higher this way, and I would be extremely sad to see the next series of Sam & Max to miss out on this. Not only is it perfectly playable on PC, it makes porting to the consoles so much more natural, which really isn't a bad thing.

So, yes, if someone in the office is keeping a list, put down my vote for continuing on the track of progress. And keep in mind that people who actually like something in the game, something which feels natural to them, aren't really going to take the time to sing about it in the forums. The internet was made for complaining, and that other thing. So please, don't fire the guy who implemented the control-scheme. He did a great job.

[Derrick]

Here's my opinion of the current controls.

Keyboard Movement = Unplayable
Keyboard Item interaction = Unplayable. Too much effort to toggle thru all on-screen items. So you need to use mouse to do this.

Joystick Movement = Playable
Joystick Item interaction = same as Keyboard Item interaction

Mouse Movement = Unplayable. Reasonably playable with my AutoHotkey script found in another thread.
Mouse Item interaction = Playable.

Skipping all the ways they could have made mouse movement better, I'll just discuss Item Interaction.

Obviously the controls remind me of Grim Fandango. When Manny would walk near something his head would turn to that item making selection easy. W&G tries to do this, but fails. When 2 items are close together it is really hard to get the character to look at the item you want. If that was fixed then the joystick would be playable and I would not be complaining.

Keyboards and gaming just don't go together for me. This is not "Typing of the Dead." :) So this leaves W&G in it's current limbo of having no one universal easy control method.

As for everyone complaining, it needs to be done. That is the only way things will work smoother in the next game. It took years of complaints for TTG to finally have the nice new Video selection of any available mode. The lack of, was one of my main S&M complaints.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

ha, no... you can see the floor and sam and max (and in general, the gameplay portions are shot from further away) making the camera issue moot.

but like i said, it's one of MANY reasons we settled on a direct control scheme.

yeah, I read some of those - you guys do seem to be obsessed with this floor thing :D anyway, I'm not questioning the decision about direct control (any more :) ) - I'm just very interested in the mechanics that led to it.

@Tjibbbe: please note that the source of immersion can be quite different by person - what works for you may not work for someone else.

[LuigiHann]

I seemed to have the best experience with a controller in my left hand (using only the analog stick) and using the mouse with my right :p

[Nightsurfer]

I seemed to have the best experience with a controller in my left hand (using only the analog stick) and using the mouse with my right :p
That's exactly my point: You need both hands to play the game. What I liked about Telltale games so far is the simple, intuitive, one hand control. - With one hand free you can eat, drink, make a phone call, write down some notes, use a remote control, etc. while playing.

By the way, I disagree that you can walk anywhere with the new control scheme now: In "The Last Resort", for example, it is impossible to walk around the truck with the sand bags. After talking to Major Crumb in the basement, I had difficulties to leave the scene as I did not know to which direction. Besides I find it confusing that the perspective changes in some scenes. For example when you come out of the basement and want to go to the dining room: You first have to press "down" (or "s"), then the perspective changes, so you have to press "up" (or "w") to continue walking in the same direction.

Anyway, I guess you either love or hate this control scheme, and it is unlikely that somebody changes his opinion later. - The important question for Telltale is probably which group is the majority, as this might have a significant impact on the number of people who will buy their next game...

[Pirateguybrush]

I'm curious to know why it's difficult to get the characters to at least move to an approximate area based on mouse clicks. I get what you're saying about the cameras making it challenging, but as the pathfinding AI is smart enough to navigate to an item, it should be able to take a guess at where you want it to go when you click on an area. Even if it's put in as an unsupported feature that has to be enabled with a config edit or command line switch at first. It doesn't have to be perfect, but I'm with the other people here in that I have my ultra-comfortable "adventure gaming" position, because I can control it with only one hand, and would love to see us thrown a bone here.

[[TTG] Yare]

I'm curious to know why it's difficult to get the characters to at least move to an approximate area based on mouse clicks.

It's sort of mathy. You transform the click coordinates from screen space, through view space, and finally into a ray in world space. If the ray intersects with the ground, you get the world coordinates of that intersection and move to it.

If the ray doesn't intersect with anything, no coordinates are generated, and you lack the necessary mathematical information to solve where the user intended to move. The best we could do is determine a line of possible places that the player intended to move to (by intersecting a plane with the ground instead of a ray), but there are still infinite solutions in this case.

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Yare;124596']but there are still infinite solutions in this case.

... which you can rank by probability and choose the top scorer :)

[Pirateguybrush]

Here's a solution I can see working for most situations, and I've included diagrams to illustrate it.

This first step might not be necessary, but I'm including it for clarity of thought. When a user clicks, the screen is analysed as a two-dimensional plane showing only the approved walking areas and distances (behind-the-scenes). I'm assuming there's a system, probably an invisible plane that shows approved walking areas. I don't imagine it would be too tricky to get the engine to do this part. Figure 1 shows what the engine is looking at during this time. (the red area - background is provided for reference). Then the engine picks the closest approved walking area to the click and directs the character there. Pathfinding AI (that seems to already be in place) does the rest. Figure two (roughly) shows how any click can be simply translated to a walkable space.

This would probably work on most spaces in the game. Even for trickier ones there would be ways around it with a little thought. Take Fig3, for example. This is probably one of the most complex problems for something like this, and even that's not too harrowing. Our Hero starts off in the enclosure on the left, with the camera behind him. The black walls are around waist height, and the camera is sitting around head height. The problem here, is that clicking in the red area would look to the player like walking up to the fence, but the engine would take that as an instruction to walk around the fence to the other side - which is annoying. The solution is to zone out the walkable areas (colour coded in the diagram, with crossovers), so that area isn't seen as traversable until Wallace reaches the yellow area.

The best thing about this approach is that it's camera-independent, so you could put the camera almost anywhere you like and it wouldn't require a lot of tweaking. For some sequences it might not be workable, but it should (in theory) work for 90% or more of the game.

I'm an animator, not a game designer, so I can't claim to be certain this would work. The theory seems pretty sound to me at least though, and the implementation relatively painless (given pathfinding AI is already there).

[[TTG] Yare]

... which you can rank by probability and choose the top scorer :)

You can't rank how "probable" a solution is without having something to compare it to.

[Pirateguybrush]

Any thoughts on my proposed solution? There's probably something I've overlooked (not being fully aware of how the engine works), but could that be a feasible solution?

[[TTG] Yare]

Here's a solution I can see working for most situations, and I've included diagrams to illustrate it.

Like many suggestions in this thread, your idea sounds good and there are a lot of cases where it would work. Also like the other suggestions, there are problems with it that you can't anticipate unless you have knowledge of the math necessary to implement these systems. People intuitively think about things like "close to" or "probable" based on what they're intending and a computer just doesn't work that way. It needs a math problem to solve, which means you need enough variables filled in to determine the solution. One extra variable that isn't known and all of a sudden the problem has infinite solutions.

It's sort of like saying: X + Y = 3, solve for X. Well then, X = 3-Y which is as good as you can do. You can't get "close" to the correct or "intended" value for X because 3-Y are all valid solutions.

There are ways to make some of these systems work by adding a lot of extra hand-tuned information to every camera angle in every scene. We prefer solutions that let us focus our resources on creating awesome adventures for you guys rather than painstakingly placing click targets in the background of scenes or whatever.

[Pirateguybrush]

Interesting. I understand what you're saying, but with my limited understanding of advanced game programming I'm having trouble with something. "Closest point" is a mathematically solvable problem. If you can write AI smart enough to navigate through complex scenes without hitting something, where does the difficulty lie in having the engine determine the closest point to randomly clicked point, given a limited possible result? I don't comprehend the maths behind it, but if the engine can't do it easily and automatically, one solution could be to have it draw an invisible expanding circle using the click location as the point of origin, and the first intersection with a walkable area would be the chosen destination. The trick to this solution working (the way I'm thinking about it) is to ignore the depth axis and treat it as a two dimensional problem. That's where I would imagine most of the difficulty would spring from, as a mouseclick does not include depth information. Once the location is chosen in two-dimensional space, it would be a relatively simple task to pinpoint that in world space.


I understand and empathise with wanting a control solution that doesn't involve repetitive manual setup for every scene, camera angle, and a rework for changes of the aforementioned, but it would seem a solution based around two dimensional analysis such as this would probably work with minimal tweaking for each scene.

I don't imagine this would be done soon, or even in W&GS1 (I know even minor changes take a lot of initial testing and tweaking), but it would be nice to see this in a possible season 2. A system like this would also be a big timesaver on other projects. In the next season of Sam & Max for example, you'd have the functionality built into the Telltale tool which would grant a lot more freedom in terms of your cameras, and save on time (as I'm under the understanding that the scenes in S&M require a lot of manual setup).

[Pantagruel's Friend]

Yare;124679']You can't rank how "probable" a solution is without having something to compare it to.

just shooting from the hip, you can lay a probability map on the original 3D scene, and there you have the basis for the ranking - and that's not even camera dependent.

don't get me wrong, I do think there are a few scenes in the Last Resort where it would be difficult to control the character by clicks, whatever the method is - most notably, the around-the-table scenes in act 3 were simply great, and it owed a lot to the camera angles.
however, I don't think it's fair to say that these problems represent mathematical impossibilities :)

[[TTG] Yare]

"Closest point" is a mathematically solvable problem.

Solving "closest point" requires a target point, and a set of possible solutions. In this case we have a set of infinite solutions but no target point in 3d space. We can't get close to something if we don't have something.

Working in 2D space, we can get a target point as suggested by moving to the closest valid spot on the walkbox in 2D space and then tracing a ray as normal. This solution is not viable because it does not allow you to (as one example) walk towards the camera in areas where the ground is out of the shot. Sure, we could click to move in areas where there are no walkboxes, but what if that area we need to click in is off the bottom of the screen?

Point and click to move has a ton of issues that all arise from mapping input from 2D to 3D, and being constrained in the game window. Most games make this a solveable problem by fixing or limiting many variables such as camera position and level design.

If there were a 3D cursor you could move in game along the surface of the walkbox and off the visible edges of the screen then it would be just as viable as WASD.

[Pirateguybrush]

Aha, I didn't think of navigating to areas where the walkbox extends beyond the camera. The solution I was imagining factors in obscured floors or cluttered maps, but that would indeed pose a problem. This whole thing is an interesting exercise in problem-solving/design. The issue of not having a target point in 3d space is negated by analysing it as a 2d plane, but that doesn't solve off-screen walkbox areas. A 3d cursor locked to the walkbox (of a reasonable size and shape, with a shadow to help indicate depth) would probably be quite simple to put in place, but extremely unwieldy and unnatural in practice.

Perhaps for those few situations where you need to navigate to a position where the cursor would need to be below the screen for this system to work, a solution would be to have the cursor move the characters down when it dropped below a certain level, up when above that, and left and right as appropriate. Again - probably not a one-size-fits-all solution, but it could solve for some of those.

Correct me if I've misunderstood, but from what you've been saying this system would work in most scenarios. It does seem there might be a couple of tricky scenes to use it in, however manual setup in just a couple scenes per episode shouldn't be too arduous. From my limited understanding of programming (but reasonable understanding of 3d space) it probably wouldn't take more than two or three days, a week at most to knock together a rough prototype of this system to test for feasibility (though I could be way off on that estimate).

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to this discussion, I'm not trying to prove you wrong or say "point and click is easy and should have been done from day one" (though that would have been nice), but hopefully this might help solve some of the problems inherent in getting a mouse interface for these games, either by deducing a solution or by giving you a spark of inspiration that will lead to a better solution.

[[TTG] Yare]

A 3d cursor locked to the walkbox (of a reasonable size and shape, with a shadow to help indicate depth) would probably be quite simple to put in place, but extremely unwieldy and unnatural in practice.

Not only that, but we'd have to make a toggle to set the cursor in 2D mode to get it to come off the walkbox so you could click on characters and other things! It would be very strange, I think.


Correct me if I've misunderstood, but from what you've been saying this system would work in most scenarios.

Walking toward the camera when you can't see the ground is the deal killer for point-and-click from a purely mechanical point of view. Making the character walk toward the camera when you move the mouse to the bottom of the screen would work, but it would be very different from normal movement. Consistency may be the hobgoblin of little minds, but an inconsistent user interface is one of the most frustrating things to deal with and should be avoided when alternatives exist.

I don't mind discussing technical minutia with the community, so far as it falls within my domain and is not a company secret. ;)

[xelanoimis]

Interesting turn into technical details - I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way, but I'll add some suggestions myself.

First of all, from what I've seen, there are not so many situations limited by the "walk toward the camera" issue. I'm not counting non-interactive "cut-scenes".

1. Just do a rayhit with the geometry (from camera through cursor) and the first point found, just use it to pick the nearest path grid point. Player goes there. You can project the point on the walk plane(s) or whatever you use. You can also consider the player's position when you choose the closest path grid point. If needed you can filter the geometry you test in the rayhit to walls and floors.

2. Usually adventures exit close-up scenes by clicking the bottom of the screen.
When you click this area, you can extend the previous technique by doing a rayhit (from player) toward the camera and hit whatever geometry is there. Again pick the closest path grid point to that location.

Now, the solution above may (or may not) work in all scenes or frames. But I have the feeling it would in most of them. Why not implement it as an additional feature. You can leave the keyboard on, in case the point n click doesn't work for a particular scene frame.

Thanks!

[NickTTG]

Yare;124895']
I don't mind discussing technical minutia with the community

you have some serious stamina. I can't believe you're still contributing to this thread

[[TTG] Yare]

you have some serious stamina. I can't believe you're still contributing to this thread

If they were just throwing rocks at me, I probably would have bailed long ago.

[Pirateguybrush]

Yare;125015']If they were just throwing rocks at me

Then we would never get anywhere. =]

At least this way we get to understand the reasons for the decision, and maybe even help influence changes/improvements.

Having thought about it a bit, there's a few things I can think of that might ease the problem of those pesky few scenes where the ground is out of frame.

As xelanoimis said, it's worth factoring in the very small number of scenes where this is a problem.

First and foremost, shots where the ground is off-screen are generally pretty confined and close-up. This means the need for a lot of player movement, other than to exit the scene is limited to begin with. On top of that, most of the movement would (in most cases) be controllable by clicking interactive areas and having the character move there to perform an action. Scenes of this nature would generally have them fairly tightly clustered due to their close-up nature.

For what little movement is involved in scenes like that, it may require manual setting of click targets. Anything below a certain point would be left or right movement depending on the click, and anything above would walk the character "up" and out of the scene (I imagine it would be rare where the scene exit is down, but that could be factored in easily enough too). The need for manual setup is not ideal, however these scenes are so infrequent that it shouldn't be much work, especially compared to setting it up for a S&M/SBCG4AP episode (from what it sounded like you were doing it manually throughout, correct me if I misinterpreted).

What have I overlooked?

[Pirateguybrush]

Yare, you still with us?

[[TTG] Yare]

Yare, you still with us?

Of course!

It's too late to make an additional control scheme for Wallace & Gromit. Due to the episodic nature of our projects, our schedules are extremely tight and don't have much wiggle room. If we do another direct-control game in the future, it's possible that the engineers on that project might have the inclination and enough R&D time to get some kind of intuitive mouse-only control in. Point-and-click might even work side by side with direct control if the designers want to use Sam & Max style camera framing.

That sort of thing is decided by designers, though, not engineers. And we have so many engineers that it's probable for the next project I won't even be the person implementing the controls. We won't know until the next project gets under way.

[Pirateguybrush]

Of course, I never expected you guys to go back and add it in (as much as I would like you to). I've just been trying to get the ideas flowing as to how a system could be designed to work with both control methods and unrestricted cameras, so as to increase the chances we will have mouse support in the games to come.

[werpu]

Well, when such a discussion gets so long, it should mean something for the game's developers. On short, if you want to please the PC adventure players, you must support a point'n click interface. Even shorter, MOUSE is GOOD, KEYBOARD is BAD, MOUSE+KEYBOARD is even WORSE!


Alex

Actually I am probably the minory of liking the new control scheme but because I play it with a gamepad. I really like the fact of having my notebook computer on the table and sitting in the couch with the gamepad in my hand and playing the game comfotably there. The controls really work out well for gamepads especially if you can play on a couch or sofa.

[Mirko]

Well, I did not like the Idea of this control scheme, when I heard about it. Now I have played the whole first W&G Episode, and it is by far not as bad as it could be. I still prefer the controls of Sam and Max Season 2 (Mouse for Everything + Keyboard in Action scenes) and did almost everything I could using the mouse (everything except moving around, obviously, and opening the Inventory, see below), but I have no problems with theese controls either.

But I have some suggestions about opening the Inventory:

a) Open the Inventory with right Mouse button (would feel a bit more intuitive than using the middle mouse button... to me at least)
b) Put a clickable Icon on the screen like in Sam and Max or SBCG4AP (maybe allow turning it off in the options )
c) Open the Inventory when you move the mouse to the edge of the screen.

Using the middle mouse button or hitting shift is okay, but I think it could be improved.

[Fury]

The majority of the time, I can go where I want to and do what I want.

That wasn't the case in Grim Fandango.

Personally, this works for me, though I would prefer point and click. Still, you need something for the consollers I guess.