Who actually likes episodic gaming? [Archive]

presidentmax

07/08/2009, 03:42 am

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of 1990's Adventure fans.

So who actually likes episodic gaming? And Why? Please raise your hands so I can shoot you.

My first and final thought is that your a toffee-nosed twonk, but i'd like you to prove yourself wrong.

You come to a forum for a site dedicated to episodic gaming and moan at people for liking what the site is dedicated to. What's your fricking problem?

How is it a good way to rinse the wallets of adventure fans? is it more expensive? no. Are you getting less for your money's worth? no.

I like episodic gaming because:
(1)No more waits, we don't have to wait years for what will add up to be 20 or so hours of gameplay.

(2)Having it in small portions works well for alot of us who live busy lives as we can complete it in our own time.

(3)It's nice not to have it all at once and experience a brilliant game over period of 5 months rather than all at once then it's all over.

(4)because this is the best way to bring adventure games to the table without the company going out of buisness because the games aren't selling well.

ShaggE

07/08/2009, 04:11 am

So who actually likes episodic gaming?

Couldn't possibly be anyone here, on a forum for fans of a developer that only puts out episodic games... we all despise it and refuse to purchase them. I mean, how could anybody like the fact that, at the end of each "season" of a TT game, we end up with a full length product for almost half the cost of most other games? You'd have to be *insane* to like saving money.

Now allow me to counter your question with another... why would you ask obvious customers of episodic games if they like episodic games? That's like walking up to a person using an iPod and asking if they like music.

adventureaddict

07/08/2009, 04:15 am

Yeah, I hate episodic games. /sarcasm.

Really? You're seriously asking this question here?

Lord-z

07/08/2009, 04:19 am

Why are you here, Tyranin. I took at look at your other posts, and they are all about how you hate TellTale. I think that both you and we would be much happier if you either contributed something besides "TellTale sucks" or left for another forum. You are entitled to your opinion, but why here?. I don't care for Carlos Mencia, but I don't go to his website to tell everybody that. They like him, what do I care?

xChri5x

07/08/2009, 04:24 am

Episodic games are great for reasons already stated.
Not the reaction you were expecting with this thread huh?

PimPamPet

07/08/2009, 04:32 am

Episodic gaming, when done right, is a great thing. Telltale is a great example of this. It's one of their best traits.

DrRocketGenius

07/08/2009, 04:44 am

Episodic gaming is awesome. It's cut down into portions so you don't rush through it in a few hours (which I tend to do) and it's only $35 at the most, while some XBox 3360 games are $60.

(Were you really expecting a different answer?)

vague_hit

07/08/2009, 04:56 am

i wasnt sure about it till sam and max. i LOVED sam and max, both seasons. that about sums it up for me really. and now it's brought me monkey island!

on top of that it brought me half life two episode 1 and 2 (and maybe 3 one day) but the time between them was so long they might as well have not been 'episodic' heh

Linque

07/08/2009, 05:13 am

I don't like episodic gaming much, but that doesn't make me behave like an ass on a forum of a company dedicaded to it.

fhqwhgads

07/08/2009, 05:22 am

Who actually likes episodic gaming trolls?

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of rile up 1990's Adventure Telltale fans.

So who actually likes episodic gaming trolling? And Why? Please raise your hands so I can shoot you.

sorry

Marduk

07/08/2009, 05:38 am

I don't see how it "rinses" my wallet, the full season cost me just over £22 which is cheap compared to most brand new releases.

I don't see how anybody can be so bothered over something like this, but you're not the first person to complain.

You're also not the first person who decided it was a bad thing before they actually weighed up the pros and cons. Here, I'll do it for you;
Pros;
Shorter downloads over an intermittent period mean you need less bandwidth and don't have to wait as long before you start playing.
Developers have more time to finish the product.
Players can actually play the game before the developers have finished making it.
You don't have to buy the whole thing at once; you can [usually] just buy one episode for a smaller fee and buy the rest as the come along (I don't know why this isn't the case with Monkey Island, I actually have an email from somebody from TTG who said we'd be able to do this).
You're not [usually] obligated to buy the rest of the season after buying one episode.
You don't have to play the whole game in one go; the episodic format means you have one contained story that you could finish in an evening (or however long it normally takes).

There's more and I'll add them if you really want me to.

[U]Cons;

Idiots like you judge it as bad before taking the time to consider the advantages!
That's all the 'cons' I can think of. I'd love to hear more (unless 'wallet rinsing' is the extent of what you have)

Linque

07/08/2009, 05:47 am

MussKatt

07/08/2009, 06:12 am

It's good to me. I have a tendancy to abuse my games till the end. This process moderates everything so i get to anticipate the next episodes:)

wefeelgroove

07/08/2009, 06:34 am

Who actually likes episodic gaming?

Ooh! Me! Me! I do!

MusicallyInspired

07/08/2009, 06:35 am

I don't mind it. I hope to see at least one full length game from TTG someday, but if I don't I'll have no regrets. I like how it actually forces you to spread out your adventure gaming and pace yourself instead of beating a full length game in a couple weeks or even a month. It does it in two ways actually. 1) It causes you to wait each month (obviously), and 2) it forces you to spread your gaming of that first episode out throughout the month so that you have a lot of game to do you until the next episode comes (if you let yourself be forced, that is).

LordKinbote

07/08/2009, 06:54 am

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of 1990's Adventure fans.

So who actually likes episodic gaming? And Why? Please raise your hands so I can shoot you.

When all is said in done, you're actually getting more for less. I just played through Curse of Monkey Island, a game that I LOVE, and it took me about four hours to beat, remembering most (but not nearly all) of the solutions.

I think, if you were to fly through this first episode without pausing at all, it might take an hour and a half (for most it probably takes about 4 hours regularly). That's 7.5 hours for the season (20 hours if you don't know the answers). And for the low price of $34.95...WHICH CAME WITH A FREE GAME!!!

I don't see where the "rinsing" is happening.

Johnny Under

07/08/2009, 06:55 am

Keep trying, man. Maybe you can single-handedly change the minds of Telltale and every person who buys their games.

Whoops, there goes another rubber tree plant.

Tyranin

07/08/2009, 07:14 am

Thank you everyone for the replies with plenty of pros and cons.

First off I'd like to say that some people take forums posts way too seriously :rolleyes: I don't really wanna shoot you all, lol :D.

Not the reaction you were expecting with this thread huh?

Actually it's the reaction I was hoping for. I voice this question in an attempt to make Telltale realise that some (even if it's a minority) people would like TellTale to produce a full length game. Just one. Please.

My other reason is to find out what makes you lot tick, and why you want your games to be like this, because:

Cons;

Idiots like you judge it as bad before taking the time to consider the advantages!
That's all the 'cons' I can think of. I'd love to hear more (unless 'wallet rinsing' is the extent of what you have)

He's right, but I'm not an idiot, just a bit stuck up. I've also spent the last two years trying to get into this... It hasn't worked.

i wasnt sure about it till sam and max. i LOVED sam and max, both seasons. that about sums it up for me really. and now it's brought me monkey island!

on top of that it brought me half life two episode 1 and 2 (and maybe 3 one day) but the time between them was so long they might as well have not been 'episodic' heh

Ok, sam & max... It's good, very good, don't get me wrong. I love the script, the jokes, the puzzles. Very well done. But for me it's missing a vital ingredient and I'm not sure what it is. But it really bugs me. I blame the episodes.

And as for valve, I really wish they didn't take the idea up for the half life series ><

Why are you here, Tyranin.

I like to rant, and it's your job to convince me that episodic gaming is the way forward...

Also... I'm still not convinced, full feature for the win.

And I'm soo tempted to annoy someone before I go out so I leave you with this...

Now allow me to counter your question with another... why would you ask obvious customers of episodic games if they like episodic games? That's like walking up to a person using an iPod and asking if they like music.

He might be listening to audio books.. you don't know that.
A fair few people joined this community when they took the rights for new S&M games because of the fan base hit the road developed, so I want people to compare, reflect and to share their reasoning. And so that's why I ask.

You don't have to play the whole game in one go; the episodic format means you have one contained story that you could finish in an evening (or however long it normally takes).
There's more and I'll add them if you really want me to.

F1 & Save Perhaps? Ok, it's Esc for the new people but you catch my drift... And yes, please send me more pros.

Who actually likes episodic gaming trolls?

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of rile up 1990's Adventure Telltale fans.

So who actually likes episodic gaming trolling? And Why? Please raise your hands so I can shoot you.

sorry

*Sigh*, troll is such an unimaginative term, but I guess there's always going to be one, at least the editing was creative, lmao. You're excused.

And finally:

I don't like episodic gaming much, but that doesn't make me behave like an ass on a forum of a company dedicaded to it.

Yeah.... I could be mature about it... But it ain't nearly half as fun and I bet this thread has put a smile on at least one persons face ^_^

Thanks everyone, peace out.

Marduk

07/08/2009, 07:17 am

Well, here's a few of the actual cons, for your information:

- Less of a scope available for the setting Well, if you mean there are fewer locations per episode than in a 'traditional' adventure then it seems my current experience (mostly sam & max) would tend to agree with you. However MI:e01 seems to have plenty of locations on one island alone without including the 2 ships from the intro.
- Shorter develompent time per release means less time to polish I can't claim to know the exact details of the process TTG use when making their games... But I would have expected most of the game to be completed by the time the first episode is released and all the time between episodes could be used for finalising and polishing.

I mean think about it... After the first episode is done you've already got the graphics engine, most of the animations for the central characters and the voice actors could have already been taped before the visualisation is gone and the lip synching can be done without any voice actors present.
- Small downloads bring certain limitations (to give an example, we all know the audio issues with W&G and S&M) The only audio problem I had with W&G was wallace's voice actor. (I know a lot of people couldn't tell that he wasn’t the original... maybe it's because I'm British that I could tell the difference was distinct, to me, from the beginning). I never had any audio problems with S&M, either, so feel free to enlighten me.
- Even though you're able to wait until the whole season is out, you're very tempted to try the already released episodes earlier, which might take away from the way you prefer to have the experience Only a problem for those who want to wait or have problems resisting temptation. I was able to wait not only for all of S&M to be complete but I waited months longer to see if it would be available on disk. (It came out a month or 2 after I caved).

With ToMI I chose not to wait, but this was because I didn't see the need and not because I wanted to play them all at once.I could name more if I thought for a bit more, but the point is that having episodic games isn't all roses. Yes there are pros, but I don't like episodes. I like full length features. Maybe, but I'm convinced that TTG's biggest 'nay-sayers' are the kind of people who're determined to find fault with things, especially if the things in question differ with any long standing traditions or things simply old enough for them to be extremely nostalgic for.
The biggest disappointment of them all was having immense fun playing A Vampyre Story with my girlfriend and all of the sudden hitting the end credits. Well that wasn’t randomly off topic at all. I’m sure this could easily be connected with what you were saying if you want to give it another try.F1 & Save Perhaps? Ok, it's Esc for the new people but you catch my drift... I did ask myself if I could have made myself clearer, on this point. Apparently the answer was 'yes'.

In the episodic format you can reach the end of the game in a shorter amount of time, I'm sure most people can do it in one evening, if you have no plans and few responsibilities. (If, like me, you have small children to take care of as well as a whole family to feed then you're likely to be forced to put gaming and any other self indulgence on hold for a while).

I guess this might not be the case for everybody; but I like stories in my games. (Naturally adventure games need to be story driven and 'plot-centric' more than any other kind, but it's still not important to every player. For me it's paramount). I'm not going to enjoy it nearly as much if that story is prolonged by interruptions... In the same way; I'm not going to enjoy a movie as much if I have to watch it 30 minutes at a time, resuming it from where I left off after being away from the TV for any amount of time.
but I'm not an idiot You clearly have a bias, here.And yes, please send me more pros. Assuming that's not a bad pun (pro = hooker) then just keep watching your thread, I'll be sure to add more when I have a little more time.

Tyranin

07/08/2009, 07:42 am

Yeah I'm a uber nostalgic traditionalist, so you're not wrong there.

However, in terms of downloading, they may be (quite) small but you still have to download 6 of them. Not that downloading is an issue in this day and age. I never had any sound problems with S&M and with tiff and aiff formats sound shouldn't be a problem. This downloading thing does give me an idea, TT could a launcher to unify their games to one place (eg, like steam)

In terms of development time, you'd think with an established engine there'd be plenty of time for polishing, but game scripting still needs to be written and in a short time. So with that some ideas on the table cannot be implemented. I also imagine crunch time to be very harsh, espically with 6 crunch times in a season. And with this programming errors are more likely to occur. But neither you nor I can say how TT does things, it's all speculation.

tredlow

07/08/2009, 07:59 am

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of 1990's Adventure fans.

You mean, rinsing the wallets of 1990's adventure fans by making adventure games? Yeah, those sneaky bastards should really stop doing that.

That's sarcasm, by the way. I forgot which one of these dang smilies that tell you that.

The only thing different than normal adventure games and episodic ones are the release methods. Price and length is still pretty much the same once you put one whole series together.

MussKatt

07/08/2009, 08:06 am

The only thing different than normal adventure games and episodic ones are the release methods. Price and length is still pretty much the same once you put one whole series together.

Yes but you generally end up visiting less venues overall.

jweir

07/08/2009, 08:08 am

I know it got mentioned that Monkey Island was in development back in February (? quite a while ago if not) and I would say that is considerably longer ago than you think. Usually by the time the first one comes out they are already doing playtesting of the second (given the past) and usually the third before the second gets released. I would say that is not nearly the "crunch" you seem to be emphasizing here and it's been readily known if you were to follow the company. I think they do a quality product for the most part (only about 2 showstopper bugs in their entire history made it out the door, and they are fixed by now) and will be around for a long time to come. As far as the episodes, I like it, but then I'm a big fan of Lost which does basically the same thing. They build you up to a point and keep you guessing about the next one from the last cliffhanger. I do also appreciate full games, but the episodes are a lot of fun and I've really grown to like them. If given a serious chance, I think everyone would, but realistically that isn't going to happen.

Linque

07/08/2009, 08:31 am

Tyranin

07/08/2009, 08:46 am

Some Cons:
1. Lots of waiting, ton's of waiting, monthly waiting. You have to wait between each episode, plus the initial time after announcement.

2. You can't buy the whole thing at once (until it's all released of course), you have no other option but to wait a month for the next one. You cannot play the whole thing at once neither. You are given no choice, but to wait.

3. Episodic games either end too abruptly and/or don't flow smoothly onto the next one. This may be an opinion based con, but sometimes it is very true.

4. Puzzle Items in one episode don't/won't/cannot compliment puzzles/other items from another episode. For example, in "The Dig" you pick up a "Jaw Bone" very early in the game, and it doesn't get used until quite near the end. This is an adventure puzzle technique that just cannot be done in episodes.

5. I'm sitting at a PC, ready to immediately waste time. I'm not sat at a TV, waiting for a timed schedule.

6. Just guessing, but the script is probably made up as they go along (Lost Syndrome, let's hope there is never a writers strike)

7. Storage. Each episode is Stand-alone, meaning for one season you're effectively downloading and storing the same game data 5/6 times over. And in 5/6 different locations.

Some Pros (that I've worked out from other people):
1. Episodes can contain their own individual stories, which cannot be done in full feature... (Sort of, because you can).

2. You can purchase the game in chunks, or just parts of the game, although you don't get the discount.

3. The entire game doesn't have to be complete for you to start playing it.

I thought pro's would be easy to come up with, but some just aren't relevant enough. For example, people say you can take episodes at your own pace. But you can take any game at your own pace via Saving the game.
That's how adventure games used to be played, unless it was too easy or the player is using a walkthrough, you'd have to save.

I excluded pro's and cons relating to download speeds and file sizes, because they fluctuate. I also didn't mention money, because if you set a price for a product, then there's definately someone out there who'll pay for it.

Tyranin

07/08/2009, 09:02 am

Well, if you mean there are fewer locations per episode than in a 'traditional' adventure then it seems my current experience (mostly sam & max) would tend to agree with you. However MI:e01 seems to have plenty of locations on one island alone without including the 2 ships from the intro.

Yes, this "lack of locations" is a big bother for me. Espically when "Hit the road" has over 20 unique main locations (Main meaning you drive to it, with more scenes through "gates" at that location) opposing... what, two or three locations in culture shock, and so on. TT we need more places to visit please :)

The only audio problem I had with W&G was wallace's voice actor. (I know a lot of people couldn't tell that he wasn’t the original... maybe it's because I'm British that I could tell the difference was distinct, to me, from the beginning). I never had any audio problems with S&M, either, so feel free to enlighten me.

I wish they could keep the orignal voice actors. Espically with S&M. Max doesn't sound the same without that New York Ting to his accent.

I did ask myself if I could have made myself clearer, on this point. Apparently the answer was 'yes'.

In the episodic format you can reach the end of the game in a shorter amount of time, I'm sure most people can do it in one evening, if you have no plans and few responsibilities. (If, like me, you have small children to take care of as well as a whole family to feed then you're likely to be forced to put gaming and any other self indulgence on hold for a while).

I guess this might not be the case for everybody; but I like stories in my games. (Naturally adventure games need to be story driven and 'plot-centric' more than any other kind, but it's still not important to every player. For me it's paramount). I'm not going to enjoy it nearly as much if that story is prolonged by interruptions... In the same way; I'm not going to enjoy a movie as much if I have to watch it 30 minutes at a time, resuming it from where I left off after being away from the TV for any amount of time.

Ah yes, I see what you mean now, You wanna start a game and see the ending in the same evening. That's fair enough.

You clearly have a bias, here.

And obviously so do you dude :D I am the demon of this thread, so you're more than inclined to call me an idiot aren't you sir ;).

Assuming that's not a bad pun (pro = hooker) then just keep watching your thread, I'll be sure to add more when I have a little more time.

Look forward to it, I'm certainly not looking for a hooker, lol.

jweir

07/08/2009, 09:07 am

The waiting card isn't fair to play here. For a standard game you'd have to wait as long if not longer from the time it's announced. For Telltale to release Monkey Island mere months after announcement is great. How many games do you have to wait a year or more for after announcement? The full game will be out in less than a year from the announcement with the added benefit that you can play (if you choose) each section as it gets finished. I fail to see how there is a negative to this and nearly every point you've listed is moot and quite simply FUD.

Marduk

07/08/2009, 09:18 am

Marduk, did you know you're a zealot? You don't need to attack a person who disagrees with you. Why do you feel that you need to counter each and every point that I have? The points are very valid for some players, at least for me. That they don't apply to you doesn't mean that you have to start bashing them. Yeah, I might be. I really enjoy debate and when I really get into it I do tend to get carried away.

Sorry about that.One example would be the audio quality point. How about you go back to the Sam & Max and Wallace & Gromit forums and have a look at the amount of people complaining about the audio quality. If you haven't run into this problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Considering that you have over 250 posts already and have been a member for a year and a half, I'm quite sure you've stumbled upon these threads on numerous occasions and don't really need my enlightenment at all, but instead chose to be arrogant. I could be wrong, but I kind of doubt it. You're right, here I was arguing against what you said and not what you meant, that being that "we all know the audio issues with W&G and S&M". This is turning a generalisation into an absolute. But, while I haven't browsed the W&G forums much at all, I really haven't seen many threads relating to audio problems with Sam & Max. But then, it's entirely possible that I simply failed to notice them out of lack of interest.

I'd say I'd check to see just how many there later, just to see if you're justified in saying that so many people had audio problems, but due to my obscene laziness I will concede and give you the benefit of the doubt.
To have some productive information in this post as well as all this negativity, Telltale has actually mentioned a couple of times that they have the next episode in its final stages when a previous one releases. This doesn't mean that there is very little time to polish episodes compared to complete games that get released only once. This is excellent :D

StrongBadinator

07/08/2009, 09:21 am

why are you even a member here if you just patronize all that we know and love? if youre gonna ask stupid questions on a place that obviously likes episodic gaming, go somewhere else, or better yet, dont say anything.

Tyranin

07/08/2009, 09:30 am

Nimeni

07/08/2009, 09:42 am

Just out of my personal experience, episodic gaming has one serious pro for me. When I finish an episode, I know it's not the end. There's nothing better than getting a fancy new game that you're really excited to play-- except knowing that after you finish one episode, there's more to come. Not to mention, I frequently find myself overloading on longer games because I have trouble stopping and end up playing through the night and am a sleepless, game-addicted zombie in the morning. This makes for a miserable day at work. This hasn't really been the case with telltale games-- I tend to finish them far before I get to that stage. Of coarse, other people may have more self-restraint, this is just my own gaming experience.

And to tell the truth, I do feel like I get more bang for my buck, because I get more and varied plots, the writers can put different spins on characters, settings, and plot developments throughout the different episodes. Not to mention you get the natural progression over time element from episode to episode-- like seeing the changes in Bosco, and Sybil's progression through jobs. It also gives you more humorous lines as the comments for various things you can click on change from episode to episode. I just think all of the little sidequests, different plots, and overarching plot that you get in, say S&M wouldn't be possible in one long game the way it is in episodes. And if you really count up all the different locations over all the games in one series, I think you'll find there are more locations that you originally thought.

But probably the most important thing for me is that Telltale is one of the few companies coming out with well-scripted adventure games using point and click interface(for the most part-- not a fan of the W&G interface, myself, which I don't consider true point and click) and interesting characters. Taking this into consideration, I would buy telltale games whether or not they're episodic, although truthfully I prefer episodic.

jweir

07/08/2009, 09:42 am

*sigh* some people just don't understand the definition of Discussion.

Not much of a discussion when you ignore basically everything I've said and continue to post the same thing over and over.

DoctorDodge

07/08/2009, 09:43 am

I like episodic gaming. Although the whole waiting for the next part is kinda frustrating, for me that's a big reason why i play episodic games. I've always been a fan of cliffhangers that keep me guessing, so i always enjoy it when TellTale leave us super annoyed at the end of an episode! (One more reason why TellTale is the PERFECT developer for Doctor Who games!)

And don't forget how much variety an episodic structure can give us in storytelling: look at Sam and Max Season 2! One ep, it's xmas themed, the next, it's desert island, the next, zombies! That's a lot of variety you just can't find in most "full length" games!

leon101

07/08/2009, 09:51 am

Well, here's a few of the actual cons, for your information:

- Less of a scope available for the setting
- Shorter develompent time per release means less time to polish
- Small downloads bring certain limitations (to give an example, we all know the audio issues with W&G and S&M)
- Even though you're able to wait until the whole season is out, you're very tempted to try the already released episodes earlier, which might take away from the way you prefer to have the experience

I could name more if I thought for a bit more, but the point is that having episodic games isn't all roses. Yes there are pros, but I don't like episodes. I like full length features.

The biggest disappointment of them all was having immense fun playing A Vampyre Story with my girlfriend and all of the sudden hitting the end credits.

Yes, there are cons, but I think the pros far out weigh the cons. Besides, full length games aren't always that well polished. Jaws Unleashed (despite being held back for two more months or so, it's as glitchy as hell, almost unplayable at times) and my favorite example: Leisure Suit Larry Box Office Bust. :D

*sigh* some people just don't understand the definition of Discussion.

True. But why bother discussing a topic about something you hate, when the site and people are dedicated to it. Pointless.

Tyranin

07/08/2009, 10:10 am

Not much of a discussion when you ignore basically everything I've said and continue to post the same thing over and over.

I'm Sooo sorry buddy, for "ignoring" your two posts. I didn't realise you had abandonment issues.

You were going on about something to do with the way TT brings out their games with the next one already in it's finishing stages blah blah blah, but I already stated that all my assumptions on TT's inner workings are all speculation and therefore not relevant.

Yes it probably is Fear and doubt, but try easing that doubt.

And Leon101 doesn't get it neither.

I like these posts where people have gone to express their love for these games, and they go on to explain what they get out of it, that's the point.
DoctorDodge gets it, Nimeni gets it, Marduk and Linque gets it but they're at each others throats too :P

jwier, you may not see any negativity here, but that's because this isn't about positives and negatives. It's about opinions, and sharing those opinions.

giant_frying_pan

07/08/2009, 10:30 am

If it wasn't for this model, we wouldn't have gotten 11 new Sam and Max games, 5 Homestar Runner games, 4 new Wallace and Gromit games and 5 new Monkey Island games. It just wouldn't have happened.

So yes, I'm a fan of the structure.

Udvarnoky

07/08/2009, 10:46 am

- Less of a scope available for the setting

It's a tradeoff. The scope of a single episode is lesser than would be the case in a bigger game, but the scope of the entire finished story could potentially be greater than that of a single large game.

- Shorter develompent time per release means less time to polish

That's an assumption. The development times are shorter, but the size of the game (and the way they develop them) reflects it. I've found all of Telltale's games to be pretty polished, myself.

- Small downloads bring certain limitations (to give an example, we all know the audio issues with W&G and S&M)

Bad example. The fact that Monkey Island doesn't suffer from these problems and isn't of significantly larger file size that I can tell suggests that the issue doesn't appear to have been one of space.

- Even though you're able to wait until the whole season is out, you're very tempted to try the already released episodes earlier, which might take away from the way you prefer to have the experience

So you're complaining about something that's completely voluntary and offers an option for people with different preferences?

The biggest disappointment of them all was having immense fun playing A Vampyre Story with my girlfriend and all of the sudden hitting the end credits.

And that wasn't even an episodic game. It was a traditionally developed graphic adventure with an 18 month schedule and everything. The reason it cuts off before the story's over is because telling an epic story in serialized form is the only way to do it if you're a graphic adventure game (for which you'll never find huge funding) and you want the kind of production values AVS does. This isn't 1997 - if you want to make an adventure game, you will be making a compromise.

If anything, your experience with AVS is one of the bigger reasons why Telltale's model is such a good thing. While Autumn Moon is struggling to find a publisher for AVS2, Telltale is in a position where they can keep putting out Sam & Max and Monkey Island games until they run out of ideas. Taking the quality of the games aside (I love both Autumn Moon and Telltale's efforts), which company is more effectively reviving adventure games? Telltale's found a way to make high quality adventure games that also don't lose money (the explanation: their production pipeline). And in a case where the adventure games sell, the developer AND consumer wins.

Nimeni

07/08/2009, 10:55 am

It also occurs to me that this is a lot easier on the company producing the games, not having one big product release, but several small ones with multiple opportunities for feedback and tweaking between releases. And happy companies live longer and produce more games.

Alucard

07/08/2009, 10:56 am

I've still got games I bought over two years ago unopened and ready to be played. I used to hunt out games which were long because I didn't want to be done with them too quick and feel I had wasted my money. There are countless games out now that I want to play but simply don't have the time or money for. Even if I was a game reviewer I don't think I'd have time to play everything I wanted.

I was not a fan of episodic games when they first started but now I quite enjoy the nice light snack of an adventure game once a month. I am far more likely to pick that up and play instead of cracking open a new rpg and having to devote 80+ hours.

natlinxz

07/08/2009, 12:29 pm

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of 1990's Adventure fans.

So who actually likes episodic gaming? And Why? Please raise your hands so I can shoot you.

If you don't like episodic games, f**k off and go find some other forums, we don't want you here.

juss

07/08/2009, 12:31 pm

Some Cons:

Some Pros (that I've worked out from other people):

One Pro is that you get the best game possible because Telltale can solicit pre-orders for entire seasons of when the first episode is released, which gives them huge amounts of knowledge and data concerning how many people are going to be playing and paying for a game. It also pays them and allows them to continue devloping the product.

This business model has clearly been crucial for Telltale's survival and, hopefully, their success, considering they must have been entering a market with product lines that had been cancelled a couple of times (Sam and Max) and they produce the kind of game that has a niche fanbase. If they couldn't keep the finances flowing the way that episodic gaming enables they probably wouldn't be able to make games period.

Linque

07/08/2009, 12:40 pm

Udvarnoky, I should probably clarify a bit. I agree that Telltale is doing a pretty good job at polishing the games, but I expect there to be immense pressure to hit the very tight release schedule and the lack of room to delay the release means that you can't really take any risks but rather have to play it safe, if you know what I mean. This is not a big gripe or complaint, rather stating what seems pretty probable to me from a developer point of view.

About the audio quality, if I'd have to guess is that they've been working on improving the audio quality a lot, but not having the option to increase file size means that it took them as long as 3 episodic game seasons to find a good solution. The solution obviously wasn't very simple, otherwise they would've definitely fixed it the first time many forum goers reported the problem in Sam & Max season 1.

About the temptation of trying episodes earlier, this thread is called 'who actually likes episodic gaming'. I listed the cons that take away from the experience for me. I like playing the whole season through, and the temptation to try it beforehand is a con to me. I'm not saying it's ultimately bad. Hell, I think the episodic format is a superb business model. If I were at the other end, creating the games I would definitely support it and see that the pros heavily outweigh the cons. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't like the aspect I listed.

Episodic games are very good for the adventure games genre as a whole, it has introduced the genre to a lot of gamers. I love Telltale for what they've done. I've bought all seasons save for Strong Bad. But still, at heart I love full length games more. Sorry that we don't agree. :)

EDIT:
By the way, I agree with you on the AVS thing. The Telltale method would be better than a case of running out of funding halfway through the game. It was kind of off-topic, the rant I wrote about it. I was just so very, very frustrated when it ended all of the sudden.

LuigiHann

07/08/2009, 06:18 pm

I enjoy it. It's awesome to finish a game, and know that I have another one to look forward to.

Frogacuda

07/08/2009, 09:22 pm

So who actually likes episodic gaming? And Why? Please raise your hands so I can shoot you.
I do. I look forward to getting a new game each month, and not having to sit through 20 hours when I'm busy enough as-is. It's fun.

At least when Telltale does it. I have been burned by a lot of other episodic series that never get finished.

larino87

07/08/2009, 10:58 pm

I like episodic gaming because I finish most of the games I pay bucket loads of money for in just a couple of days while I can finish an episode in that amount of time for just over 8 bucks and still haven't even touched the whole game or season at that point. Plus the fun of the game lasts longer.

tredlow

07/08/2009, 11:01 pm

Yes but you generally end up visiting less venues overall.

Yes, that I agree. Though after seeing where TOMI is going with its story, with a new island every episode, I think future games will have less recycled content.

tredlow

07/08/2009, 11:17 pm

Well, if you don't like Telltale's episodic adventure games, just don't buy them. And don't flame on the adventure game fans who don't let some small inconveniences and impatience stop them from playing the games. Telltale hasn't failed us yet, and I doubt that they will in the future.

taumel

07/08/2009, 11:38 pm

Btw does anyone knows the reason why you can't buy single episodes like in series before anymore?

Frogacuda

07/08/2009, 11:56 pm

Btw does anyone knows the reason why you can't buy single episodes like in series before anymore?

Yeah, it's the same reason they aren't calling them "episodes" this time. Tales of Monkey Island is more of a single big epic game, with one story, but released in 5 parts. If you just bought one of the middle chapters it'd be like watching the middle 20 minutes of a movie.

ToMI really isn't an "episodic" game in the same sense as other Telltale games. It is in terms of release and the way they're developing it, but it's really just Monkey Island 5.

taumel

07/09/2009, 12:05 am

Yeah, it's the same reason they aren't calling them "episodes" this time. Tales of Monkey Island is more of a single big epic game, with one story, but released in 5 parts. If you just bought one of the middle chapters it'd be like watching the middle 20 minutes of a movie.

ToMI really isn't an "episodic" game in the same sense as other Telltale games. It is in terms of release and the way they're developing it, but it's really just Monkey Island 5.
Is this more your interpretation or do you have some official information about this - a link?

Rather Dashing

07/09/2009, 12:12 am

It's not the reason they're calling them Chapters(that's just a series staple), but SOMEWHERE in the pre-release forum it's been said that their goal for Tales was to make it more of a larger-scope story overall without the individual episodes being so stand-alone. I can't find it right now, but I can at least corroborate the claim.

Anyway, back to your original question, it's actually because on the outset people were confused by the episodic structure. They preferred simplicity, which apparently Telltale took as writing off the individual episode purchases until later in the season.

And for that, I *do* have a link.

http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=153078#post153078

Frogacuda

07/09/2009, 12:21 am

Is this more your interpretation or do you have some official information about this - a link?
Well they haven't outright said that that's the reason they aren't selling them separately (in fact they haven't even confirmed that they won't sell them separately) so I'm connecting the dots myself there, but they have said many times that the episodes are going to be a single epic story this time and not episodic stories. Just read some interviews with Grossman. Or hell, play the game (the ending makes it obvious).

But yeah, like Rather Dashing said, it's possible that they're just waiting.

taumel

07/09/2009, 12:28 am

@Rather Dashing&Frogacuda
Ah okay, thanks!

It doesn't seem to be communicated this well, as quite some sites are also wondering about this step.

I guess i said this in antoher thread already but in my opinion there a series which work pretty well as they are, like the small adventures in Wallace&Grommit but then there are series where i much more would appreciate one more complex story instead of the smaller chunks, Sam&Max could benefit a lot from this as well. Glad they took this direction with MI.

As for the buying procedure, the only thing i found weird is that it seemed that you only were able to upgrade from one episode to the season, instead from any number.

Frogacuda

07/09/2009, 01:52 am

Sam&Max could benefit a lot from this as well.
As a fan of the Sam & Max comics, I liked the episodic thing, but I think people who only knew Hit the Road were hungrier for a longer story. I think with the surreal, chaotic nature of the series expecting a long attention span might be inappropriate. But if they wanted to go that way, I'd be fine with it.

taumel

07/09/2009, 03:25 am

I would like to see more a road movie like complex case were i don't have to walk through the same streets over and over again.

WinterSnowblind

07/09/2009, 03:34 am

I don't, it just seems like a good way to rinse the wallets of 1990's Adventure fans.

I don't understand this at all.. It was all discussed in the Monkey Island forum yesterday, but again. If this was released as a normal - one big game, chances are it would be priced as such, instead of being just $35. So how are we losing money?

It also gives the developers more funds to work on the next parts, while we're still enjoying the previous ones. And again, if it were released as one stand alone game, chances are it would be around 6-8 hours total, which is the standard for games like this, instead of being 4-6 hours per episode.

Yes, it means we have to wait for the next parts, but that creates a great forum atmosphere, and in the long run, we're getting a much better game. I honestly don't understand the complaints here, at all, you just sound totally ignorant and annoyed that they're doing something different from normal.

Armakuni

07/09/2009, 03:42 am

Well, I like some aspects of episodic gaming and dislike other aspects.

The biggest issue with episodic games for me is the limited scope of each episode.
This makes them much easier and often less involving.

In non-episodic adventure games, you have a bigger world, more inventory items, more things to try out.

tredlow

07/09/2009, 04:15 am

I would like to see more a road movie like complex case were i don't have to walk through the same streets over and over again.

Tales of Monkey Island's gonna have a new island in each episode, I think.

Scrawffler

07/09/2009, 02:11 pm

I was somewhat skeptic about the idea when I first heard of episodic gaming, and it took me a little while to adjust, but I gave it a chance and now I love it.

It's usually quite a bit easier than a long adventure game, as there are fewer things you are able to try. But on the other hand, there is still many hours of gameplay. Sometimes, challenging puzzles that may go over your head are still thrown in.

I actually beat Full Throttle in less hours of gameplay than it's taken me to complete some of the Sam & Max episodes (comparing only games that I used no hints for). But then again, everyone's different. I personally found Full Throttle to be fairly straightforward and don't remember there being any puzzles I really got stuck on for a long time. But sometimes a Sam & Max puzzle will just catch me off guard! But my point is, even though single episodes are usually easier than larger adventure games it doesn't mean they won't provide you with as much gameplay!

Episodic gaming is a new and creative take on adventure gaming. I think that by introducing this new style of gaming, Telltale are succeeding wonderfully in bringing back a classic genre and giving it an original twist to attract attention, and perhaps even introduce the adventure genre to an additional new audience too.

And hey, here's a thought. If you don't like episodic games, stop buying them. 'Tis that simple. (you'd never believe it, eh?)

Marduk

07/09/2009, 03:33 pm

Here are some of the extra pros I promised a while ago. (I think it was yesterday, I'm not sure).

First, though; a lot of people have criticised the OP for complaining about Episodic games in the forums of an Episodic Game company. Please bear in mind that there are exceptionally few adventure games on the market, right now; so few, in fact, that you're forced to play games that have a format you don't like if you're genuinely hungry for more of the genre.

Anybody who was a fan of the of "Sam & Max Hit the Road", for example, are note likely to ever see a game in the S&M (anybody else tend to think of "Sadism and masochism" when you type that?) franchise from another publisher, so if you really want to "get a fix" it's the TellTale version or nothing. Same goes for Monkey Island, now.

More Pros;
[After they're all released] you can play a the episodes of any order (much like you can with a DVD box set, if you so wanted).

Each episode can simply be uninstalled when you're done with it.

You can burn each episode to disk or store them (the setup file) on an external drive.

Developers can 'test the market' with one episode better than they could with a demo (people can download a demo but not everybody will pay for the full episode).

This won't be to everybody's taste but some people like the anticipation that comes with knowing there's another episode to come.

The revenue generated by one episode can help pay for further episodes; you don't have to worry about production being halted because of a lack of funding because it's being continually purchased while it's still being made.

You can do just about anything in an episodic game that you'd do in a "feature" game (seriously, is that what we're going to call full length games from now on?). (Somebody pointed out that you can't use items found in early episodes in later episodes, however I'd like to point out that, if an item from episode 1 and needed in a later one then it'll be brought back for you to pick up and use.
I'd also like to bring your attention to the very first TTG blog entry (http://www.telltalegames.com/community/blogs/id-1). Here Brendan Ferguson explains that situations where you need an item near the end of the game that you should have picked up at the start of the game (ie, something that has been possible to pick up from the start of the game) is something that TTG is trying to avoid).

It's good for people who have trouble tearing themselves away from a game so that they can better attend to their other responsibilities. (Some people have 'Addictive personalities'. My brother is especially bad for this).

The opportunity for suspense through 'Cliff-hangers' you couldn't get before episodic games. (Not without waiting for, perhaps, a year or more between each one).

I still think there are even more pros then this and (if I was to go back) I think I could easily pick holes in most, if not all, of the cons listed (but I really can't be bothered).

Udvarnoky

07/09/2009, 03:45 pm

Udvarnoky, I should probably clarify a bit. I agree that Telltale is doing a pretty good job at polishing the games, but I expect there to be immense pressure to hit the very tight release schedule and the lack of room to delay the release means that you can't really take any risks but rather have to play it safe, if you know what I mean. This is not a big gripe or complaint, rather stating what seems pretty probable to me from a developer point of view.

"Immense pressure to hit the very tight release schedule" sounds like something that's probably true of any game developer except I guess Blizzard or something. Again, Telltale's development cycles are short, but their methods and their game sizes are reflective of it. It's probably quite true that putting out their games is a crazy undertaking. But that's how the games industry is in general, based on the slight exposure I've had to it. Constant compromise and racing against impossible schedules are simply part of the deal - that you're a little bit closer to Telltale and therefore maybe hear specific things from them about stuff that they have to forfeit doesn't mean that similar struggles aren't true everywhere else.

It sounds suspiciously like you're using the fact that they put out games on a monthly basis to make assumptions about how "safe" they have play things, at least compared to other studios who aren't in some improbably sweetheart situation. At the end of the day, the verdict that you make is based on the game, without whatever knowledge you have of the realities of their production processes shaping your judgment (either for better or for worse).

If you don't like episodic games, f**k off and go find some other forums, we don't want you here.

Come on, now.

Hellerphant

07/09/2009, 07:13 pm

Personally I love episodic gaming.

I'm a gaming journalist for an Australian Company called MyMedia. I get thrown sometime upwards of 10 games a month that I need to try and finish before I write reviews on them.

I manage to spend a minimum of ten hours with each game before a review (if I don't finish them before hand) and then critique it and replay certain sections, some games I end up spending 15 hours with!

This is a part time job for me, I already have a 8:30-5:00 day job so time for me to just "play" a game for fun is precious. That's what I love about the Sam & Max series. I'd sit down and complete it in three or so hours, have a blast and not have to wait a whole week till I had some time to come back to it.

It suits people with a busy lifestyle, and now I've actually been appointed to reviewing all of Telltales titles!

zmally

07/09/2009, 08:04 pm

I'm posting this without having read any of the previous posts - once I saw the big bold sentences I thought this was probably an argument! But I think I'll share my thoughts as a contribution anyway :)

When I first heard that TTG had got the licence for Sam And Max, and they were doing it episodically, I was very, very skeptic. I waited until season one was out to get it, at retail, because I didn't like the idea of episodic gaming.

However, I do actually think the episodic gaming concept works very well. Personally, when I was a kid, I played my games to death. I had SOMI from pretty much when it came out on the Atari ST and I played it constantly I just loved it, and pretty much every game I had that I grew attached to, I'd play to death. But now I live a different life style, I have a job, I have bills to pay, and I have a fianceé who lives with me in my house. I don't have as much time to dedicate to gaming as I used to. Don't get me wrong, since I got Fallout 3 I've played it a hell of a lot! But if this were 10 years earlier I would have completed it a few times now, making different choices and getting new experiences out of the game.

Now as an adult I can come home from work, and instead of shunning away Christina, we can both sit and play a game that she enjoys too, and we don't do it for hours on end. At the end of the day, a "season" of a game in retail costs about the same as a full retail game, it lasts roughly as long, and you get the same enjoyment out of it. It's just chopped up into chapters for you, so it's easier to digest, which is much better for me personally as a working man.

Another good thing about the episodic gaming, which I am warming to, is how you're essentially forced into waiting a month before you can continue the story, which for the more epic stories (like ToMI, I'm promised :)) means I can go back and play the one part to death, take it all in, and build up excitement for the next episode. Making what could be a 3 day frantic play through of a great game last several months can only really be a good thing!

However, I would like TTG to do a few "full" games from time to time. I don't know if it would work as a downloadable game though, as obviously downloading a 1gb+ game at once can be a pain for some people, myself included. But I like my DVD cases on my shelf.. I'm that kind of person!

ToMI is the second series I'm downloading as it happens, the first being Wallace and Gromit on XBLA, and I must say, I should have done it this way sooner!

shaigunjoe

07/09/2009, 08:13 pm

Some Cons:
1. Lots of waiting, ton's of waiting, monthly waiting. You have to wait between each episode, plus the initial time after announcement.

Can you tell me how much longer we would have had to wait if they decided to make Tales of Monkey Island a full retail game? How many full retail games are announced then released a month later? Speculate how much waiting from announcement to retail a full game would have taken. Please answer these.

Bottem line, waiting is a party of every single game ever made ever, and should not be a con, do you expect a game to be made instantly without any work, ever?

2. You can't buy the whole thing at once (until it's all released of course), you have no other option but to wait a month for the next one. You cannot play the whole thing at once neither. You are given no choice, but to wait.

Waiting again....see above. If you don't mind waiting for a full retail game, then you shouldn't mind waiting till all 5 are out and get them at once, just ignore the developing community (a major pro!), since thats what you want to do anyway.

3. Episodic games either end too abruptly and/or don't flow smoothly onto the next one. This may be an opinion based con, but sometimes it is very true.

This is opinion. Personally, I love the cliffhanger at the end of the first episode, all the fun discussion on the forums, I want to see more of that. You claim you like discussion, so there you go.

4. Puzzle Items in one episode don't/won't/cannot compliment puzzles/other items from another episode. For example, in "The Dig" you pick up a "Jaw Bone" very early in the game, and it doesn't get used until quite near the end. This is an adventure puzzle technique that just cannot be done in episodes.

Wrong, did you play ToMI? You got a locket in it that you won't use till the next episode(or maybe later). Maybe this is why you had to buy all episodes at once...idk

5. I'm sitting at a PC, ready to immediately waste time. I'm not sat at a TV, waiting for a timed schedule.

I do not understand this one at all. I think it means you sit at your computer and wait for the next episode... What do you do when a full retail game does this? Mass effect for instance, it is not complete, killzone 2..etc. The problem of having to wait for a story arc to finish is NOT exclusive to episodic games.

6. Just guessing, but the script is probably made up as they go along (Lost Syndrome, let's hope there is never a writers strike)

Yup, just guessing, doesn't count

7. Storage. Each episode is Stand-alone, meaning for one season you're effectively downloading and storing the same game data 5/6 times over. And in 5/6 different locations.

On the other side, you can delete episodes individually as well, can you delete the first one and still play the others.

I'll do one pro:

Monkey Island is back thanks to episodic gaming. The format has alot of potential outside of TT as well, another thread should be started about that one. Before you bring up valve again...yea, they failed at it, they have acknowledged it, but I think the future is bright for episodic games in general. What I think it boils down to is that you are really really impatient, and I am sorry, wish you could enjoy it as much as the rest of the MI community does.

I noticed you dropped price from your cons, making some progress.

Hellerphant

07/09/2009, 10:14 pm

Yeah Valve had the idea, shorter games at a cheaper price but the key to episodic gaming success is consistent releases.

When you think about a show such as Family Guy, they make one episode that is wonderful and everyone loves it and then they take say another year to release another episode....of course fans are going to be angry. Essentially that has been the downfall of Valve and their Half-Life episodic series.

Telltale have got the method right and have consistently delivered enjoyable titles to our hard drives, on time and at a great price, what isn't there to love?

Linque

07/09/2009, 10:39 pm

Udvarnoky, the point I was trying to make was that delaying the release a bit is much more acceptable with a full length game than with a single episode. But yeah, there's a lot of pressure with all games close to the finish line.

jp-30

07/09/2009, 10:44 pm

As many others with limited time due to family, work etc, I love that episodic games like TTG deliver can be finished before my life distracts me. I have a shelf full of 1/2 finished games.

mogwell

07/10/2009, 11:34 am

Some Cons:
1. Lots of waiting, ton's of waiting, monthly waiting. You have to wait between each episode, plus the initial time after announcement.

Name another "full" game you like. Look back to when it was announced. Then look at when it was released. Was it within a month? Probably not. Was Tales of Monkey Island? Yes. Yes it was. So that kinda becomes a moot point.

So you have to wait month by month for more of the whole story/game? Hmm.. sounds like what it is - episodes. Keeping your interest for a longer period of time. Well.. probably not your interest ;)

2. You can't buy the whole thing at once (until it's all released of course), you have no other option but to wait a month for the next one. You cannot play the whole thing at once neither. You are given no choice, but to wait.

Call me pedantic but yes you CAN buy the whole thing at once. Before the whole season is done. It's called pre-ordering. Mostly for those of us that are fans of a particular series. You can't play the whole thing at once when it's first released but that just shows up your impatience and/or maniacal rabidness to have it all, whatever it is, right. now. In all honesty I hate having to wait as well but that's an issue that I personally have to deal with and I'm guessing it's not a problem for a lot of people. As always the majority of people have the vote. Your opinion is not really going to change anything in Telltale's world.

"3. Episodic games either end too abruptly and/or don't flow smoothly onto the next one. This may be an opinion based con, but sometimes it is very true."
"4. Puzzle Items in one episode don't/won't/cannot compliment puzzles/other items from another episode. For example, in "The Dig" you pick up a "Jaw Bone" very early in the game, and it doesn't get used until quite near the end. This is an adventure puzzle technique that just cannot be done in episodes."

Point 3 and point 4 I would have sort of agreed with until ToMI came out. It didn't end too abruptly for me, partly because they did a good job of "ending" it, plus there's items to use in the next episode (I hope). However I do think that even tho the episodes were a bit short in both seasons of Sam and Max they did flow pretty well between episodes and seasons. I'm pretty sure (99%) that ToMI will as well from what I can see so far.

5. I'm sitting at a PC, ready to immediately waste time. I'm not sat at a TV, waiting for a timed schedule.

Took me a while to get what you meant here but yeah I see your point. It's expected that we're able to play a game all the way through at a pc as soon as it's installed. It's expected that we have to wait for TV shows week by week. And this is just a mix of the two. IMO for story driven adventure games this works surprisingly well. Also with both TV and PC you can watch and do other things while waiting.

6. Just guessing, but the script is probably made up as they go along (Lost Syndrome, let's hope there is never a writers strike)

No. Just no. The full script is probably still being worked on and tweaked when the first episode is released but I have no doubt that Telltale knows what the overall story will be and what each episode is likley to entail before they've even announced a series. Might be a weak point in my argument but they do have the titles for each episode in ToMI and episode one was indeed about launching the screaming narwhal :) Of course this is just me guessing as well but it makes a lot more sense to me than your guess did :p

7. Storage. Each episode is Stand-alone, meaning for one season you're effectively downloading and storing the same game data 5/6 times over. And in 5/6 different locations.

Take roughly 188mb. Multiply it by 5. That's just under a Gb. Even with save games. That's less than a lot of full games. They're all arranged in essentially the same location c:/Program Files/Telltale Games/{insert series name} admittedly in 5 or 6 different folders (on WinXP in my case) unless you have the habit of changing it to random folders when you install. Oh and there's the folder in My Documents with your saves. Seems like a scraping the barrel kind of Con to me.
I do understand that you're trying to say about the same information being installed on your pc but unless you have a 2Gb hard drive it's not really an issue. Even then you can just uninstall each episode as and when you need to :)

To answer your original title - I like episodic gaming :D