"What happened, happened" Questions..
 

For those of you that have watched "LOST." The time-travel there, was what happened, happened. But in Back to the Future, that clearly isn't the case. For example, in the film version, Marty's mum and dad, met in a different way originally. It wasn't until Marty went back in time, that he CHANGED what originally happened. So which theory would be correct, there must be what appears to be, two different types of time-travel theories.
Like in the game, for example, where Marty is hiding behind the tree from himself. This isn't originally what happened. If it had, we would of played the character seeing Einstein near the tree in Episode 1. If you see what I mean.
This has always bugged me since I started watching LOST. Then compared it to Back to the Future. And I imagine the game itself is going to contradict itself, with the shoe in the DeLorian from the past.

What happened was the ending of Lost sucked...

But in all honesty I have always like the Lost/Doctor who explanation of changing the past in time travel more than the fading out of existence take that BTTF has

Yeah exactly.

Having a LOST approach would require much much more thought.

And BTTF is linear so it will mostly never happen. Though it's kinda sad cauz it sure makes things epic at the end, when you realize all you did was always meant to be ^^ .

But that won't happen. ;)

"And Matrix Sequels Suck" "And BSG's end sucks"

Why don't you get over it ? Some people disliked it, some liked it, you have no right to claim it for everybody.

I for instance, thought it was cool and sad.

I re-watched all BTTF movies the other week. Technically speaking, what happened did happen.
Hard to explain. But when the movie starts, Marty's parents met with Marty's dad being a wimp. Obviously, Marty went back in time and altered things.
But because the time-line changed via the events, in the memories of his mother and father (only Marty would remember how they initially met), they would only know it as Biff getting hit. So really, that is what always happened. If you catch my drift.

P.S. Not to mention that Doc would know every single thing that would of happened as Marty went back to the 50's to see him.
Never understood the start to 2nd movie neither. Was pointless to go into the future because of Marty's kids being in trouble. It hadn't happened yet, and Doc could of just warned him without going and setting off all the bad events that eventually happened.

The idea of time travel has been around for a very very long time. Lost is not that original at all.

Back to the Future would have been kind of boring if changing history wasn't an option.

I prefer to think of the "what happened happened" theory as the "12 Monkeys" theory, with cause and effect being virtually indistinguishable in the film. Earlier time travel films have touched upon this idea as well, such as Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure, which took a less serious, yet equally well executed, approach.

Back To The Future has a different set of rules, none of which, as far as I am aware, break the known laws of physics. There are many plot holes and illogical occurrences in this film, such as time travel's ability to erase lives and objects, but not memories. However, the ability to alter time-lines is not one of them.

Here's a list of different time travel movies or shows that I've seen and how it effects the time line. Please note that when I refer to internal time travel, it means the time traveller is travelling within their own body and thus can only travel between their birth and their death (therefore no possibility of running into your other self). External is like BTTF where the characters can travel to any time and therefore could co-exist with other versions of themselves.

SPOILERS AHEAD

13 going on 30: Lead character travells forward in time internally from the age of 13 to the age of 30. Near the end she does travel back to the age of 13 again and makes different life decisions based on her knowledge of the future. At the very end is shown as a 30 year old with a different future.

Austin powers movies; second and third films involve time travel but no characters attempt to change the timeline.

Bill and Ted films; characters get messages and even items planted for them by their future selves thus implying time travel has always been in the timeline. Villains attempt to change the timeline but are unsuccessful.

buttefly effect; character travels back in time to various points in his past and usually comes back to a different future each time he does so.

a christmas carol; lead character goes to the past, present, and future. While we are unsure if he is able to change his future, it is presumed the future he sees is the one that would transpire if he does not change his ways.

click; lead character is able to travel back in time but merely as a spectator, he is invisible to other people and doesn't seem to be able to physically move things and thus proably cant change the past. Character does have the ability to speed up time and thus essentially travel to the future

frequency; no characters travel through time but a man is able to speak to his father 30 years earlier via radio and give him information about the future which does in fact change the timeline. This is a good example of how effects on the timeline effect human memory; when the past changes, the son remembers both timelines, the previous one and the new one.

hot tub time machine (great BTTF spoof btw); 4 characters travel back to 1986, 3 internally, 1 (who was not born yet in 1986) externally. The timeline gets changed, 1 character stays back in 1986 but the other 3 return to a different future

peggy sue got married: lead character travels back in time 25 years internally and at the end returns to a different future

terminator films; plays with both time travel theories; in the first film, john connor sends kyle reese back from 2029 to 1984 and while in 1984, impregnates johns mother thus becoming johns father (john was born in 1985) so this would imply the timeline always expects time travel. Terminator 3 does indicate that events of terminator 2 posponed a judgement day which was supposed to happen in 1997 to the early 21st century. This implies that the timeline expects time travel but can still be changed to an extent

the time machine; lead character builds a time machine to save his fiances life, every time he goes back to save her, she dies a different death. So the events can be changed but the ending effects can not be.

the time travellers wife; character involuntarily travels to the past and the future but seems the timeline expects time travel as he is unable to change events (ie his mother died in a car accident and despite attempting, does not have the ability to save her)

timecop; time travel exists but only to the past, travel to the future is impossible because the future hasn't happened. The timeline is changed several time and the movie has a rule that the same matter can not occupy the same space at the same time. Meaning you cant go back in time and touch yourself. This does eventually happen and both versions of the character evaporate (which should cause a paradox but doesnt.)

being erica (canadian TV show): lead character is given time travel therapy where her doctor allows her to go back in time (and once to the future) to relive past events. He tells her she is not allowed to make drastic changes (a murky subject which I'll get to later); so for instance on the day she loses her virginity, she travels back and still loses it but to a different person. The character usually travels internally except if she travels to before her birth in which case she travels externally. Her doctor usually travels with her in an external manner (so she always looks the way she did in whatever year she's travelled to unless she goes to before her birth while he always has the same appearance). In one episode she travels back and saves her brothers life despite being instructed not to do so, returns and finds him alive in the present but he dies again upon her return and she chooses to go back and fix her changes.

Ah! The Predestination paradox.

...I don't really get that. If you are entering the past with your brain intact, and you are aware of what happens in the future, you can change it. Even breaking a branch of your favourite tree would be enough to prove this.

A lot of time travel movies toy with the idea, though. Lawton mentioned 12 Monkeys, and I think that is an excellent example. All the time through the movie, the viewer is kept unsure whether everything is predetermined. That constitutes a lot of the movies' horror. When the protagonist is shot at the near end of the film, everything seems to point in the direction of predetermination and hopelessness... but the very last scene leaves us in doubt again. Great movie, that. Good thing I haven't yet bought the DVD (Blu Ray next year ;) )!

Actually, Einstein kept staring at a tree and barking in episode 1. I kept wondering why but just thought he must have cornered a squirrel or something. In episode 2 we find out a time-traveling Marty is behind the tree.

If you went back in time, does the present you currently left behind, stop, or would it continue parallel to you in the past? Like at the end of BTTF 2, Marty receives the letter from doc stating he has been living in the 1880s for 8 months. Which doesn't make sense as no time, apart from a couple of minutes hardly passed.

According to director commentary they only did this because at the end of the first film there was never supposed to be a 2nd film and the 1st film's ending was a silly joke or just for effect or something. It was said that they wished they hadn't put Jennifer in the car or talked about their kids at the end of the 1st film because if they hadn't then the 2nd film could have been about anything they wanted in any time period.

I agree. :-)

I'm not sure I understand. Actually, 70 years has passed. This example from BTTF 2's ending seems to suggest that time changed around Marty. Doc's existence and death in 1885 didn't change the timeline enough to create a paradox and have Marty erased or wake up in 1985 with no memories or etc, but the ripple did catch up to his time period, meaning that in this instance in the films Marty (1955) and Doc (1885) were in the same reality instead of parallel realities. BTTF 2's Alternate 1985 seems to suggest it is an alternate 1985, but the ending of BTTF 2 seems to suggest what actually happened was that the Alternate 1985 was the real and only 1985 in that the original 1985's that had been before Doc and Marty's time traveling were erased. If they had stayed in tact in a parallel reality then Marty and old Biff would not have been in danger of being erased from existence. They instead would have remained in tact as their original origin timeline was not changed and they were simply out of place in reality, not unlike the TV series "SLIDERS." In Sliders we are dealing with parallel realities, not time travel according to BTTF rules, and because of this obviously there's no reason for a character to be erased being in a parallel reality with a different history or different versions of themselves. It seems more so that the original time lines in which Marty and etc came from were erased and replaced. If no Marty or etc existed then they were also erased. If they existed although in a different way they would remain. It is still uncertain why Marty and other character's memories do not change with the new version of reality. It is possible stepping outside of their proper space/time continuum makes them immune to memory distortion, but the more likely answer is dramatic narrative via the writers. ;-)

Thanks for reading. I was bored, ha ha.

Perhaps you were confused because other BTTF movies show a slow ripple effect in which Marty and characters must prevent the past from being changed before they are erased? And yet Doc's letter comes mere minutes after he left to 1885? I think the reasons for this are 1) Marty's parents still existed and it was still not written in that current present time as to whether or not Marty would be born. It all hinged on the kiss during the dance to make sure Marty was born. Had his parents gotten together earlier or later on their first child might not have been Marty, still erasing Marty from the future. 2) Marty in 1955 was still technically in the future as compared to Doc in 1885 and thus the damage to the timeline in 1885 had already happened. There was still a ripple effect but instead of having to go into the "pond's" future to erase a time-traveling Marty from the past or etc, Marty instead is hit by the ripple in real time. The postman delivering the letter from Doc can be seen as a physical embodiment of the ripple effect, Doc being the rock that splashed into the "time pond" or "time stream" in 1885 that produced that ripple. To Marty it was thus an immediate effect because it happened in the past (1885) instead of in the present (1955).

Lol. I know 70 odd years had passed. Hard to explain, but the point I'm making is for example, say you're with a group of friends, and you went back in time on your own, say, 10 years. What would happen to the friends in the present/future you came from? Would time like freeze, or would they carry on their life without you in the future. Whereas you're in the past.
Comparing to doc in the 1880s, it's like saying he was still alive the same time Marty was in the 1950's. Sounds contradicting I know lol. Or like I am typing to you now, and I went back to the 1880s. You'd be still sitting online, whereas I'd be somewhere in the past. Like it's running along next to each other.

This one seems to kill every single one of the threads concerning the functionality of time travel here, but I'm still hoping to keep at least one alive for an inspiring theoretical discussion, so here goes nothing:
http://www.telltalegames.com/forums/...t=23050&page=3
Here I have quoted the whole theory of the member Flah, and also tried to analyze it in more detail. It involves a complex stable time loop. Marty's time loop, starting from the first time travel in the original trilogy, didn't end yet if it exists, and might never (because that requires the time travel to cause itself), and from that perspective it resembles a linear time travel. Anyhow, what's discussed in Flah's theory is a (smaller?) loop that's limited exclusively to the events of our beloved video game and might be happening, with the self-cause most probably being very related to the burning down of Hill Valley's first speakeasy.

There's actually a pretty funny scene between Miles and Hurley in the episode "Whatever happened, happened" where BTTF is referenced and the different rules of time travel are explained.

I really dont like this logic because at no point in the bttf universe has a future time travel been visible in the present (if it were then there'd be no possibility for alternate timelines). In part I, we'd be able to see part II's marty climbing the ladder over the stage and on the other side of the door talking to Biff but we dont so clearly those events have not happened yet.

Yeah and they said they never would have done the future had they planned the entire trilogy. Though I'm glad they did, it was my favourite part of the trilogy, we got to see martys parents and biff as seniors and teenagers, martys children, biffs grandson. And lastly it sets up for the happy ending that the gloomy future doesn't happen and allows marty to have a character arc.

You have to think of it fourth dimensionally; at the end of part I, marty goes to the future 30 years and the changes he made have already transpired (low pines mall and dog wearing a bullet proof vest). Basically in part II, shortly after the delorean gets struck by lightning, all the changes in 1885 should occur; docs picture in the library, his tombstone, the ravine name being changed, the delorean appearing in the mine, and yes the western union agent. This is also why whenever we see newspapers or pictures change (all of which depict the future at the poin in ttime they are in), it happens shortly after the events triggering them change. Ie. burning the almanac in 1955 changing the 1973 and 1983 newspapers.

it hasn't happened yet, so marty can not be hiding behind the tree, thats how it works in bttf. There is no other marty in episode 1 hiding

When did a dog wear a bullet proof vest?