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[nadir]

Originally Posted by Novotnus

I belive they don't have to - LeChuck broke free from the power of Ultimate Insult at the end of EMI - he attacked Ozzie and destroyed the talisman. I don't think that would be possible while he was still ego-less.

Ah, I read that wrong. I interpreted that as LeChuck becoming demoralised and hitting himself on the head for failing, crushing Ozzie unintentionally as a result. Pretty silly :P

I'm still confused how exactly 3 draws frees LeChuck him from Ozzies control though.

[The Tingler]

Originally Posted by Novotnus

I belive they don't have to - LeChuck broke free from the power of Ultimate Insult at the end of EMI - he attacked Ozzie and destroyed the talisman. I don't think that would be possible while he was still ego-less.

Nah, he wasn't consciously attacking Ozzie - if you tie in Monkey Kombat, one of the actions the opposing monkey does is slap his head with both hands. By tying with LeChuck a few times, you've tricked him into doing this action and destroying the Ultimate Insult jammed on his head.

How did LeChuck get out of it? Either destroying the Ultimate Insult releases its power (doubtful, as that puppet show pirate was still much the same) or it only affected LeChuck's 'Stone Pirate' or 'Demon Pirate' form. This is why he looks like Zombie Pirate again.

I think. Mike?

[nadir]

Originally Posted by The Tingler

Nah, he wasn't consciously attacking Ozzie - if you tie in Monkey Kombat, one of the actions the opposing monkey does is slap his head with both hands. By tying with LeChuck a few times, you've tricked him into doing this action and destroying the Ultimate Insult jammed on his head.

How did LeChuck get out of it? Either destroying the Ultimate Insult releases its power (doubtful, as that puppet show pirate was still much the same) or it only affected LeChuck's 'Stone Pirate' or 'Demon Pirate' form. This is why he looks like Zombie Pirate again.

I think. Mike?

Ah right, I remember the monkey's doing that. I guess that makes sense... sort of. Not the best puzzle.

The wiki entry on LeChuck has got this wrong too. Good to know I wasn't the only one left a little confused by the ending.

How about we just say that LeChucks ego is so large it could never be destroyed completely, and 'regrew' it over time. That'd be good enough for me.

[Ignatius]

Here goes my two cents:

When Guybrush ask Herman how to reverse the effects of the UI, he said something about knowing the language of the monkeys (thats what the ultimate insult was all about, monkey insults). While in Monkey Kombat the technic of copying the rivals move wont do anything significant (neither the insults), on a bigger scale it would reverse the effects of the UI.
Just look at LeChuck the first two times you do that. He looks confused, and the last time its like he has been shut down (thats how Elaine escapes his hand)

[dpmedeiros]

I never played Monkey Island 4.

Will playing it make me enjoy the new Monkey Island episodes more?

[Novotnus]

Originally Posted by The Tingler

Nah, he wasn't consciously attacking Ozzie - if you tie in Monkey Kombat, one of the actions the opposing monkey does is slap his head with both hands. By tying with LeChuck a few times, you've tricked him into doing this action and destroying the Ultimate Insult jammed on his head.

How did LeChuck get out of it? Either destroying the Ultimate Insult releases its power (doubtful, as that puppet show pirate was still much the same) or it only affected LeChuck's 'Stone Pirate' or 'Demon Pirate' form. This is why he looks like Zombie Pirate again.

Just take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bw5g-Mqax8
LeChuck looks like he's attacking Ozzie with intention to kill him (see this last punch). Anyways, seems like Ozzie is commanding LeChuck while he's under Ultimate Insult influence (I guess so, as Ozzie is a master of insult fighting and LeChuck's unbeatable durign that fight) and that's something Ozzie wouldn't command him to do...

[Gryffalio]

Originally Posted by Novotnus

Just take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Bw5g-Mqax8
LeChuck looks like he's attacking Ozzie with intention to kill him (see this last punch). Anyways, seems like Ozzie is commanding LeChuck while he's under Ultimate Insult influence (I guess so, as Ozzie is a master of insult fighting and LeChuck's unbeatable durign that fight) and that's something Ozzie wouldn't command him to do...

I never noticed before, but does this remind anybody else of the ending to Wonderbird? (a 1953 animated film)

[PariahKing]

Originally Posted by dpmedeiros

I never played Monkey Island 4.

Will playing it make me enjoy the new Monkey Island episodes more?

Probably but I'd suspect you will also enjoy it as a game in it's own right.

[nadir]

I think what 'The Tingler' says makes sense. While not very obvious or logical the puzzle relies on LeChuck having identical/similar reaction animations to the monkey's who at some point do hit themselves over the head during Monkey Kombat. I don't recall exactly if that animation plays only after drawing or after 3 draws, but if it does then I think that pretty much confirms that is the logic behind the puzzle for defeating Ozzie.

I know it looks a bit like he is attacking Ozzie but I think that was just played up for dramatic purposes. Notice LeChuck's expression remains unchanged and he does not say anything that would make it clear that he has regained control like "take this Ozzie." I'm convinced he is just hitting himself on the head like the Monkeys do.

If you have a better theory that explains how exactly 3 draws in Monkey Kombat allows LeChuck to regain control I'd like to hear it.

If only there was someone on this thread who could settle this dispute once and for all...

[Ignatius]

While the insults in Monkey Kombat made you lose energy/bananas, the draws made you and your opponent regain energy/bananas. (?)
Since the ultimate insult and monkey insults are pretty much the same (just in a different scale) you can replace "energy/bananas" with moral energy? maybe? (??) Yeah its weird but you asked for it.
That way, by making 3 draws you made Lechuck s moral energy to be full again (???)...uhh...yeah...whatever.

Anyway, just look at LeChuck, for me its pretty clear he was back to normal at the end.

[CalBearRJ]

Originally Posted by nadir

I think what 'The Tingler' says makes sense. While not very obvious or logical the puzzle relies on LeChuck having identical/similar reaction animations to the monkey's who at some point do hit themselves over the head during Monkey Kombat. I don't recall exactly if that animation plays only after drawing or after 3 draws, but if it does then I think that pretty much confirms that is the logic behind the puzzle for defeating Ozzie.

I know it looks a bit like he is attacking Ozzie but I think that was just played up for dramatic purposes. Notice LeChuck's expression remains unchanged and he does not say anything that would make it clear that he has regained control like "take this Ozzie." I'm convinced he is just hitting himself on the head like the Monkeys do.

If you have a better theory that explains how exactly 3 draws in Monkey Kombat allows LeChuck to regain control I'd like to hear it.

If only there was someone on this thread who could settle this dispute once and for all...

This does seem to be the only theory that makes sense. I always just assumed there was no logic to that puzzle (and that's the reason I hated it so much) but this seems to be a somewhat plausible explanation.

[Silverwolfpet]

I actually still don't get it why you can beat Jojo Jr. only if you loose bananas up to the point where, if you score, he looses all his bananas too. It's weird! Is it like a... karate kid thing? A "wise old man" theory? A "You can only win if you learn how to lose" stuff? Oh well...

[The Tingler]

Originally Posted by Silverwolfpet

I actually still don't get it why you can beat Jojo Jr. only if you loose bananas up to the point where, if you score, he looses all his bananas too. It's weird! Is it like a... karate kid thing? A "wise old man" theory? A "You can only win if you learn how to lose" stuff? Oh well...

Um, I don't understand. Granted it's been a while since I last played EFMI, but I thought you just keep attacking him until he makes the mistake of going for a tie instead.

This does seem to be the only theory that makes sense. I always just assumed there was no logic to that puzzle (and that's the reason I hated it so much) but this seems to be a somewhat plausible explanation.

The monkey, in addition to beating his head, will also droop his hands down to the ground first - which LeChuck also does, allowing Elaine to escape.

I always thought this was obvious, but the final cutscene admittedly doesn't make it clear - and you don't really have to work it out to do it. Winning's not working, nor is losing - going for a draw's the only thing left.

Still, all the Monkey Island games, save MI2, have easy finales. At least this one's epic! I just wish it had been a Giant Stone Monkey, with the same head. I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

[Silverwolfpet]

Originally Posted by The Tingler

Um, I don't understand. Granted it's been a while since I last played EFMI, but I thought you just keep attacking him until he makes the mistake of going for a tie instead.

I don't really remember much, but I do know that this was not the way I beat him. Hmmm... Let me get back to you on that. I'll check out some gameplay footage.

[nadir]

Originally Posted by The Tingler

I always thought this was obvious, but the final cutscene admittedly doesn't make it clear - and you don't really have to work it out to do it.

I think it's a little hard to figure out. I mean why should a giant stone egoless LeChuck act exactly like a monkey? I don't recall any dialogue that would have possibly have pointed me along that line of thinking, or anything that highlighted the importance of the monkey reaction animations. I think I did notice the finger waging was the same but I just thought they were reusing animations because of budget or time restrictions.

That's got to be the second most confusing Monkey Island ending I've ever seen.

But, yes it was at least epic. I know I have been doing a lot of complaining about EMI but I still really like the game. There's a lot of things it did right. It just has a few issues is all.

[Novotnus]

Originally Posted by nadir

If you have a better theory that explains how exactly 3 draws in Monkey Kombat allows LeChuck to regain control I'd like to hear it.

Well, LeChuck is a powerful beeing and if his desire to marry Elaine saved him from death several times, it is possible, that he broke from Ozzie spell when his bride escaped (and her escape was caused by Monkey Kombat move - that's right). Just a theory - that's how i thougt it happened. Would be nice to get some details from Mike : )
And one more detail - if I recall correctly, every "draw" animation was a single move (droping hands down, finger waging or hitting head - always one while you draw)

[Fausk]

Originally Posted by nadir

I think it's a little hard to figure out. I mean why should a giant stone egoless LeChuck act exactly like a monkey? I don't recall any dialogue that would have possibly have pointed me along that line of thinking, or anything that highlighted the importance of the monkey reaction animations. I think I did notice the finger waging was the same but I just thought they were reusing animations because of budget or time restrictions.

That's got to be the second most confusing Monkey Island ending I've ever seen.

But, yes it was at least epic. I know I have been doing a lot of complaining about EMI but I still really like the game. There's a lot of things it did right. It just has a few issues is all.

Well, if humans didn't have egos wouldn't we all act like apes, the previous evolutionary ancestor? :P Might be a bit of a stretch, but it makes sense to me.

[Novotnus]

Didn't work on Pegnose this way - he started to act like a scared child or a paranoic, but not an ape.

[CalBearRJ]

I don't know that I care much how epic the ending was. It was still my least favorite ending of the four games. Solving the last couple puzzles didn't make me feel like I accomplished anything...turning off the tower was too obvious, and I sorta stumbled on how to beat Ozzie/LeChuck without really understanding why I needed to do those things.

The best MI ending was MI2. It becomes obvious what the puzzle is to beat the game, and it relies on knowledge you've gained by playing the game, but it still takes awhile to figure out how to put all the pieces together. That was a great final puzzle.

[ttg_Stemmle]

Hey guys, sorry I've been away so long, but we've been bolting down the press build for Chapter 1, which is looking to be about 98.3% of the actual Chapter 1 gameplay experience (plus-or-minus a few bug and music tweaks).

While I'm here, I'll clear up a little confusion about the end of EFMI: LeChuck and Ozzie are indeed defeated because Guybrush goes for the tie in Monkey Kombat, causing the giant LeChuck statue to slap his head with his hands, just like all the monkeys do when there's a tie. Nasty puzzle, without as much foreshadowing as I would throw into it if I were writing it today.

As to how LeChuck survived getting blowed up real good for the umpteenth time, well, there's a story behind that...

Mike