The Tone of Monkey Island - My Review and Suggestions for Future Episodes

[GregorV]

Lorn,

I must thank you for the review as I couldn't help but simply nod in agreement! Some of the points simply explained what I already felt but didn't realize why I felt that way,that is until you put it in such a lucid way.

I think what your review (or rather, criticism, taken in its finest meaning of the word) shows is that Tales got most of things right and that it would take just a few little tweaks to make the experience that much better. The points I would like to re-emphasize are the following:

Guybrush should be an out-of-depth character. While this is a cliche in many adventure games (see Leisure Suit Larry, Space quest), it has never been done as well as in Monkey Island and, for that proper monkey feel, I think this should be maintained. There is a possible exception to this, though, depending on which way the story turns. The ending of Ep. 1 suggests that Guybrush and LeChuck might have a sort of a role reversal in the future, and in such a scenario it makes perfect sense that Guybrush is actually an accomplished pirate. I'll reserve my judgement on this topic until later.

Support characters need to be more piratey. The pirates of Flotsam are just too "soft". One can not imagine them having any pirate history. If they were just a bit more fleshed out in terms of their past or connections, then they would be much more believable. It is just a matter of adding a few more dialogue choices to make them a bit more fleshed out.

I hope that Telltales read your original post as that is probably one of the best constructive criticisms I read on just about any topic, ever.

[sladerlmc77]

Howdy, GregorV, and thanks for the kind words!

I think what your review (or rather, criticism, taken in its finest meaning of the word) shows is that Tales got most of things right and that it would take just a few little tweaks to make the experience that much better.

That's my real goal here. Something that has really impressed me about Telltale is their willingness to engage with the community, and to make changes along the way to produce a better product.

While Narwhal was a great introduction, I did feel that it had a few "off" beats...nothing major, but the biggest problem that I found was tone.

I wanted to see if the community agreed, and if so try and discuss what worked (and what didn't) in a constructive way, in the hopes that Telltale (and us as fans) can try and understand what it is that hooks us into this universe int he first place!

The ending of Ep. 1 suggests that Guybrush and LeChuck might have a sort of a role reversal in the future, and in such a scenario it makes perfect sense that Guybrush is actually an accomplished pirate.

I think this take could actually be a lot of fun. One of the funny things about LeChucks Revenge was that Guybrush had EVOLVED. He's trying SO hard to be a mighty pirate - he's got the beard, the coat, pockets full of loot, AND he's killed LeChuck...and people STILL don't take him seriously.

The converse of this - Guybrush infected with LeChucks Mojo - could be really interesting.

In the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, Will Turner went from being a blacksmith who wanted nothing to do with piracy, to the black-shirted, ring-locked, Errol-Flynn-style replacement for Davey Jones! This evolution of character is vital, and seeing a badass Guybrush could be a lot of fun, if handled correctly!

Support characters need to be more piratey. The pirates of Flotsam are just too "soft". One can not imagine them having any pirate history. If they were just a bit more fleshed out in terms of their past or connections, then they would be much more believable. It is just a matter of adding a few more dialogue choices to make them a bit more fleshed out.

I agree, although I think it's also important to pay attention to the character design. I refer to Davey and Crimpdigit as "Mr. Potato Head" characters - they're generic Telltale NPC's. While I'm sure this makes developing the game much faster, it also robs the characters of their individuality - and memorability.

Contrast this with the Marquis De Singe, who obviously had some thought put into him. Prior to the release of the game, I was skeptical of this character...I didn't like the concept.

Telltale succesfully designed, casted, and implemented the character though, and made me appreciate what they were doing. I'd like to see more of this.

Winslow strikes me as an in-between character. He's sort of generic, but has just enough personality to make me want to see him fleshed out much more. Give him an interesting backstory (and maybe more of a lead role) and there's a potential for growth in this character!


Lorn

[MrFerder]

Originally Posted by lparcshinoda

we want REAL pirates and not comical-parody of a pirate ... we want a real EVIL lechuck and NOT a lechuck trying to act bad but resulting to be a parody of the lechuck he used to be in M1 and M2.

There haven't really been real pirates in a Monkey Island game since Secret. We might see some again in ToMI but only because of the pox.
What's strange is that the quest of ToMI revolves around stopping the Pox from turning all the pirates into rude, fierce people, but shouldn't those be the least of the required character traits for a typical pirate? The way the pirates behave under the pox is the way they should be naturally be behaving all along. Since this is Monkey Island we shouldn't expect raping and pillaging, but the pirates should at least be naturally a little rough around the edges.
Granted, Guybrush is as nice a guy as you'll find, but the whole gag is that he's a pirate wanna-be.

[Teppic]

Great review, Lorn. I agree with everything you said (I think?). Well, Maybe not the order of the games. I would pick Monkey Island 1 over 3.

[sladerlmc77]

There haven't really been real pirates in a Monkey Island game since Secret.

I'm not sure if I'd go that far. Largo LaGrande certainly qualified (at least for me), and I thought the Pirates of the Barbery Coast did as well. (Cutthroat Billin particular!)

Piracy was their FIRST vocation...and they turned to other pursuits, each for their own personal reasons.

Even then, they were happy to return to the sea once you'd proved your worthiness to captain a ship, and quite cheerfully mutineed (in the politest way possible) as soon as the ship crashed on Blood Island!

What's strange is that the quest of ToMI revolves around stopping the Pox from turning all the pirates into rude, fierce people, but shouldn't those be the least of the required character traits for a typical pirate?

Absolutely...while the pirates have always been humorous, they've also always had an edge. It says something that I remember the names of Mancomb Seepgood, Esteban, Largo LaGrande, and heck...even the LOOM guy...when I can't reliably remember the last name of Davey Nippercut (hope I got it right this time!)

Since this is Monkey Island we shouldn't expect raping and pillaging, but the pirates should at least be naturally a little rough around the edges.
Granted, Guybrush is as nice a guy as you'll find, but the whole gag is that he's a pirate wanna-be.

I think this is exactly right...and this is a large part of the reason why I suggested that the main problem that I see in this first episode is tone.

With just a very slight shift in perspective, I think the series can hit the notes they want, but they have to turn it a little bit darker, a little bit more serious, and with memorable characters who serve as more than puzzle devices.


Lorn

[ICE_COOL]

Really good review, it was my thoughts exactly, im not bashing Telltale, i believe that they have done an amazing job some niggles about the game that i would have changed but i didnt make it and i appreciate the hard work that has gone into making this and maintaining the game. Awesome job Telltale and good review!

[MrFerder]

For the most part, the games move either from day-to-night or night-to-day as they progress. I'm sure as the series moves into night it will help with contributing to a more sinister mood.

[sladerlmc77]

One interesting possibility could be if the intention is NOT to clean up the Pox.

The pox would act as a pretty convenient device to reset the pirate behaviors?

That would be a neat climax to the end of Season 1, too. LeChuck destroys La Sponje Grande, Elaine falls for LeChuck, and the pirates have all reverted to cutthroats....

Then...


TO BE CONTINUED.....



Lorn

[lhnz]

You make a lot of really good points, and I think you really understand what it was about the tone of Monkey Island as a series made it so fun to play. I agree that they should try to steer the series in a more spooky dark and unsettling way, and avoid making anything too inauthentic.
You put it best:
"Monkey Island works when it's a serious pirate story with bizzare anachronisms (like Grog Machines)."

Overdoing it like was done with EFMI, is a bad idea and should be avoided.

edit; I also rate MI2 > MI3 > MI1 > MI4

Originally Posted by GregorV

Support characters need to be more piratey. The pirates of Flotsam are just too "soft". One can not imagine them having any pirate history. If they were just a bit more fleshed out in terms of their past or connections, then they would be much more believable. It is just a matter of adding a few more dialogue choices to make them a bit more fleshed out.

I hope that Telltales read your original post as that is probably one of the best constructive criticisms I read on just about any topic, ever.

Agreed. While a lot of other criticisms on the site have been about the UI and such, this gets right to the bottom of the game: the story.

***

I think it would be a good idea for Telltale to read some old pirate mythology and stories, to really get the feel of the game down.

[RockNRoll]

I agree with virtually everything said in the review.

I'd also just add that I think having a LOOK function is essential to Monkey Island, not only just by tradition, but even to the humor. Half of the fun in the previous games was just looking at things, and that would set up a great line or subtle insight. There just needs to be more things to see and interact with.

The puzzles really need to be harder. The classic Monkey Islands even had diversionary tactics at times to throw you off of a puzzle a little bit. You had to think of alternatives, or discover really clever solutions out of a ton of options or after a long time. All the solutions are at your feet and linear in this one, and while they were clever enough, they weren't a satisfying challenge. One in particular that I was struck by was how easy it was to break open the bottle.. I was expecting to have to construct some kind of solution, but instead all you had to do was ask the glass blower and he immediately had a fully functional tool for you, which was simple to get. It's hard to even call that a puzzle. In previous games you would've had to construct some kind of device or something, and people wouldn't tell you directly the materials you needed, you had to think critically and extract information out of things you heard and saw.

[lhnz]

I'd also just add that I think having a LOOK function is essential to Monkey Island, not only just by tradition, but even to the humor. Half of the fun in the previous games was just looking at things, and that would set up a great line or subtle insight. There just needs to be more things to see and interact with.

I would agree with this. I was recently thinking about it all recently, and have decided that the issue currently is that Telltale have moved to a control scheme that is not very suited to Adventure Games. That is, I believe conceptually it needs a lot more work.
I'll explain:
1. The most important part of an adventure game is interacting with the world. They have removed the verbs, and decreased the variety of interaction... Finding ways of increasing this would ultimately create more fun.
2. Movement now requires constant attention. For a game that hasn't meant to be about controlling and directing your character it seems strange that you should have to actively hold buttons down when you want to move. A simple click of the mouse made everything so much easier, and it meant while travelling you could do other things in the background such as check the screen for hotspots with the mouse... It also meant that I could lean back on my chair and play the game much more casually.

I am not necessarily suggesting they switch back to point 'n' click. However, I believe it would be wise to (a) increase the number of ways the user can interact with the world, and (b) change the control scheme in a way that means it does not need total supervision to move from one place on the map to another. That is, think of the controls in a more adventure-centric way.

[Merkel]

The fact Monkey island was made into an episodic game has allowed all this great discussion of what makes Monkey Island so great. After all these posts, I reckon we all know much more specifically what is the thematic core of Monkey Island than what we knew before. The episodic format allows us to suggest slight tweakings to bring the game closer with each episode to what we all would consider almost unanimously 100% Monkey Island.

And although I really loved episode 1, I do think this is a very valid discussion with some great points being made

[Guybrush_Threepwood]

Originally Posted by corruptbiggins

hmmm. I might start scoring games in fractions of pi.

Woah, nerdy comment!!!
BTW, I read you're studying computer games programming, so can I ask you something in PM?
Ya know, I took a degree in computer science, now I'm taking my 2-years specialization and then I'd like to take a master in game development.
Lemme know if you got time to answer

[sladerlmc77]

Yes! And isn't that such an amazing thing?

I am really impressed that Telltale has such great customer relations. Other companies would keep a well-defined wall between themselves and their consumers, with every statement released approved by lawyers beforehand.

Telltale not only talks to us directly, they ask us for our opinions, solicit comments for actual inclusion into their projects, and aren't afraid to make jokes.

Kudos to Telltale, and I hope they take the comments in this thread for what they are - constructive criticism and thinly veiled adoration for your efforts.


Lorn

[Crumplehorn]

"The Trial and Execution of Guybrush Threepwood" sounds like it will be a more darker and ominous episode if that's the tone you're after. It's good to have light and shade and CMI was the game that really delivered this in its excellent locations.

I commented in another thread that I felt the music sounded less expansive than CMI's soundtrack. This is heard most in the familiar opening theme music which sounds quite artificial and synthesised. The S&M score was excellent and I know Telltale have the resources to include more real instruments to perform the game music. The organs and guitars for Monkey Island are far easier to come by than a horn section for Sam & Max.

[sladerlmc77]

I still think the gold standards for Monkey Island are LeChucks Revenge, and Curse.

The strange thing is, The Secret of Monkey Island is a pretty good game. The script is tight, the humor is funny, it strikes all the right notes - but I'm convinced that it's really LeChucks Revenge that cemented "Secret" as a classic.

To look at it another way, if The Secret of Monkey Island had been a standalone game, I have no doubt that people would still have fond memories of it.

But would it be a classic?

When LeChucks Revenge started, it was obvious that time had passed in the Monkey Island universe. Guybrush had a beard, a ponytail, and a snazzy new pirate coat - not to mention loads of Pirate Loot.

Largo LaGrande was introduced as the new tough, and LeChuck was scarier than ever as a pissed off reanimated corpse.

And the ending - while some people see it as a negative, I am CONVINCED that the controversy itself is what set everybodys imaginations on fire. 17 years later, we are STILL debating what it means - and everybody has a different interpretation.

By including this ambiguity, we as the players get to choose how to interpret the story, and that works retroactively in "Secrets" favor.

As to the music, I don't mind synthesized so much - heck, that's no different from the original two games.

I guess what I was disappointed by with the new music was that, after playing it, I don't remember it.

When I'm in a monkey island mood, I constantly find myself whistling the themes from Woodtick, Phatt Island, or Plunder Island. These melodies had staying power, and would cycle in my head for hours at a time.

I didn't feel that from this episode, and I think that's a bit of a shame.


Lorn

[Secret Fawful]

When you explain your points out in more detail; I think I can agree more with what you're saying. You do make some valid points; I could go ahead and make the argument that we haven't seen how the whole game is going to turn out; I do think we'll see something special come of this by the end of the season.

Perhaps one thing is that Guybrush, in every other game, was set up on each island of his own free will. The first episode of MI5 is very similar to the first episode of MI2 in that Guybrush wants to find a way off the island, by means of a ship. The main difference is that Guybrush is not on Flotsam of his own free will, and consequently, neither are we. Both we and Guybrush want to get off Flotsam as fast as possible and see what the world of MI5 really has in store for us; to explore the mysteries and understand this new and exciting story. Perhaps the tone of Flotsam is one of "we want to get away from here as fast as possible to get into the real grand epic story, but we can't because we have all these big obstacles in our way". And I think that's mainly what Episode one is all about. In that way it pretty much does its main purpose as a first chapter, establishing Guybrush, the quest, the characters, and the mythology of the games, but not the grand world of Monkey Island itself; as we have yet to see that until episode 2 or however it will be shown to us. And because of that, I'm much more excited for Episode 2 than I was for Episode 1, and I think my excitement will grow for each new episode, greater than that for the last. And that's what episodic gaming is all about.

[Shanksworthy]

Hi Lorn,

I'm a very opinionated MI fan, so normally when I see so many personal opinions in a review like yours my first reaction is to pick it apart. Not so in this case, as your review eloquently sums my exact thoughts on ToMI. I almost wish we could go for beers, just so we could have lengthy geeky discussions on the minutia of Monkey Island. (Doesn't it drive you nuts when people accuse you of taking your passion too seriously?)

In any case, I'd like to especially second the need for a more brooding, more piraty atmosphere. I remember as a kid playing SoMI for the first time, one of the emotions evoked was a feeling of dread -- like, "what is this Guybrush character getting himself into!". Now it seems like Guybrush is, for lack of a better description, at the top of the pirate food chain since he's ostensibly less of a wannabe than all the other 'pirates' in MI land. Also I really miss the quaint-yet-dark and eerily brooding lantern-lit firefly-infested MI world of yore. The brightly-lit locale doesn't quite match up with my romanticized vision of what a Pirates of the Carribean-inspired world should look like.

That said, the devs have promised somewhere in the forums that future episodes will have much ‘darker’ settings, which gives me hope considering that Telltale games always improve with each successive episode.

Also with regards to the humor not being "laugh-out-loud", I actually think it's about as good as it could be without the benefit of the hilarious Tim Schaffer working on it. That guy is renowned for being the only guy in the industry who can evoke a gut-laugh from a video game, a feat that is apparently almost impossible to achieve.

All-in-all, great game... Out of all the MI games I'd rate it somewhere in the middle, although future episodes have the potential to rival the best ones (which IMO are MI 1&2). Interestingly, I find it to be a perfect amalgum of all 4 MI games, since it melds an equal number of elements from each. Now if they could remove the MI 4 part of that equation in future episodes...

[lhnz]

Originally Posted by Shanksworthy

Also with regards to the humor not being "laugh-out-loud", I actually think it's about as good as it could be without the benefit of the hilarious Tim Schaffer working on it. That guy is renowned for being the only guy in the industry who can evoke a gut-laugh from a video game.

Hm, that is a point. I wonder how many genuinely funny people there are around in the computer game world... You're more likely to find them writing for TV or films where comedy is more the norm.

[Irishmile]

I rarely ever laugh out loud in real life... not that I have a bad sense of humor or anything but I just don't laugh, TOMI managed to get a few chuckles out of me...