The Tone of Monkey Island - My Review and Suggestions for Future Episodes

[sladerlmc77]

Wow! I'm glad to see the discussion picking up!

Secret Fawful:

Perhaps one thing is that Guybrush, in every other game, was set up on each island of his own free will. The first episode of MI5 is very similar to the first episode of MI2 in that Guybrush wants to find a way off the island, by means of a ship. The main difference is that Guybrush is not on Flotsam of his own free will, and consequently, neither are we.

This is a very good point, and something that I hadn't actually considered. By limiting our ability to jump into the main plot, we really ARE working against the same frustrations that Guybrush himself is. We feel the frustration more viscerally because have internalized his own goal. Awesome point!

I think this also underscores the need for the "Meanwhile..." sequences we've seen in the other games. They give the player a brief moment to breathe, rewarding us for completing a puzzle (thus giving us a sense of accomplishment), while also teasing us with a little bit of plot.

Because Guybrush and LeChuck are the two most important characters in the game, we really need to keep them front and center - even if they're not in the same scene.

We only see LeChuck briefly in the intro, and briefly at the exit of the game...to my mind, he felt criminally underused in this episode.

And because of that, I'm much more excited for Episode 2 than I was for Episode 1, and I think my excitement will grow for each new episode, greater than that for the last. And that's what episodic gaming is all about.

I'm also more excited for the next episode than I was for the first - I'm just looking forward to the tonal shift which I hope will occur. Episodic gaming is a very exciting medium for me, because it gives you time to reflect on the progress of the story. In this way, it's a lot like the penny dreadfuls that used to be published.

Trivia: Treasure Island was actually written as a serial in a magazine, released in installments. The story itself wasn't actually widely noted until the entire story was collected into a book, after which it became a classic. I suppose this game itself is art imitating life, in that regard.

Shanksworthy:

I almost wish we could go for beers, just so we could have lengthy geeky discussions on the minutia of Monkey Island. (Doesn't it drive you nuts when people accuse you of taking your passion too seriously?)

It would be fun, wouldn't it? A buddy of mine and I get together for lunch on most working days, and the hour is usually spent in conversations just like this one. We spend a good deal of our time discussing the latest movies, books, and games that we enjoy, and critiquing them. While some people don't really appreciate deconstruction, I really enjoy trying to understand why some stories work, and stroke a chord inside you - and others somehow miss the mark. The most fascinating stories for me to deconstruct are the ones that ALMOST work - the ones that you see a seed of greatness in that just didn't quite receive the polish it needed.

In any case, I'd like to especially second the need for a more brooding, more piraty atmosphere. I remember as a kid playing SoMI for the first time, one of the emotions evoked was a feeling of dread...

Also I really miss the quaint-yet-dark and eerily brooding lantern-lit firefly-infested MI world of yore. The brightly-lit locale doesn't quite match up with my romanticized vision of what a Pirates of the Carribean-inspired world should look like.

Have you ever been on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride? I suspect you have, because you've evoked the dock area perfectly.

Walt Disney wanted you to be intuitively aware that you were about to enter an area that was magical. On the dock, it is dark and brooding...fireflies flutter around in the misty atmosphere.

When you actually board the ride, you're carried down a waterfall...and you enter the Caribbean.

It's subtle, but everything leading up to the boat ride communicates that you have entered another world.

Ron Gilbert captured this mood PERFECTLY in LeChucks Revenge. Woodtick has the exact same atmosphere as that dock, especially by the time you reach the cemetary. I think this "otherworldy/spooky/magical" feeling is what is in desperate need of revival - and that requires a serious approach with "real" pirates, odd and funny though they may be.

Of course, these aren't the historical pirates - they're the romantic pirates that Robert Louis Stevensen himself created. But those images have endured for a reason - the dress, the language, the mannerisms - despite their crude ways, we love these characters for not adhering to the rules of society, and living freely as we wish we could.

Also with regards to the humor not being "laugh-out-loud", I actually think it's about as good as it could be without the benefit of the hilarious Tim Schaffer working on it. That guy is renowned for being the only guy in the industry who can evoke a gut-laugh from a video game, a feat that is apparently almost impossible to achieve.

I do agree. Nobody in the industry has been able to make me laugh like Schaffer, and his absence is felt. I think his humor has much to do with why "Curse" tickled my funny bone so much.


Lorn

[Shanksworthy]

Originally Posted by Irishmile

I rarely ever laugh out loud in real life... not that I have a bad sense of humor or anything but I just don't laugh, TOMI managed to get a few chuckles out of me...

I don't really laugh out loud much either. I guess you could say I'm jaded. ToMI evoked exactly 2 chuckles from me, which in itself is quite an achievement.

But SoMI and MI2 both made me laugh out loud a bunch of times, and I think that is partially due to the fact that there were so many clever and original ideas accompanying the humor. But that's the magic of Tim Schaffer, and like I say, he's a rare commodity in the industry.

[Merkel]

Was Schaffer involved in anyway with Curse of Monkey Island. I don't think it was, and still, that game is as funny as they come

[Shanksworthy]

Originally Posted by Merkel

Was Schaffer involved in anyway with Curse of Monkey Island. I don't think it was, and still, that game is as funny as they come

I think he was mostly busy doing Grim Fandango, but he would contribute from time to time. If I'm not mistaken, one of his contributions was the pirate sing-a-long, which to me was one of the funniest things in the game and definitely a laugh-out-loud moment. Again, that goes back to originality and cleverness.

(BTW I don't want to mis-attribute that clever scene in CMI to the wrong guy... if I'm wrong I hope someone from TTG will correct me. Whoever thought that up should get credit for their brilliance)

[sladerlmc77]

Merkel:

Was Schaffer involved in anyway with Curse of Monkey Island. I don't think it was, and still, that game is as funny as they come

I thought he was? I thought I remembered reading an interview somewhere indicating that he wrote a fair share of the puzzles and dialogue, but I guess I could be wrong? It's been so long ago now, I wouldn't have a prayer of finding the article again.

That brings me to another point that I haven't talked about much: The puzzles.

This is one area that I actually didn't have any complaints about in "Narwhal." I felt the puzzles were of exactly the right difficulty, fit into the plot just fine, and advanced the story.

I did think that the puzzle with the Marquis De Singe and the Messed Up Idol was poorly designed (mainly because a line that Guybrush delivered actually turned me OFF of the correct solution that I was persuing), but I've since found that there were other ways to solve this puzzle that I missed, and other people had a much easier time with this one than I did.

I definitely want to see more of this quality puzzle design in future episodes, if maybe making them a bit harder.

(Another poster mentioned how easy it was to get the unbreakable-glass breaker, and I tend to agree that that was far too easy).

Something more along the line of the wheel of cheese would tickle me pink.


Lorn

[corruptbiggins]

Originally Posted by sladerlmc77

Because Guybrush and LeChuck are the two most important characters in the game, we really need to keep them front and center - even if they're not in the same scene.

We only see LeChuck briefly in the intro, and briefly at the exit of the game...to my mind, he felt criminally underused in this episode.

You have to remember that this is the first Chapter of the game. And to my knowledge the only real times we saw LeChuck in the other games, after the start of the game and before the final confrontation (apart from the 1st when he was introduced just towards the end) is in 'meanwhiles' in between chapters, and as we've just had the one chapter we don't know if Telltale plan to put these 'meanwhiles' in at the start or end of further chapters.

I'm sorry if that doesn't make much sense, I've been out and had a few bevvys tonight and I'm not sure how to get my point across.

[MadMuppet]

I think there are a lot of really spot-on comments about tone in this thread, and Shanksworthy's "the quaint-yet-dark and eerily brooding lantern-lit firefly-infested MI world of yore" comment perfectly captures the feeling I got when playing the original 2 games.

I have followed Telltale's output since Texas Hold'em and I must hand it to them - they really have developed in leaps and bounds since the first products. I am now astounded at the level of detail they are now capable of producing for an episodic game on a strict deadline. The mood in the "creepy shack" gives me hope that they can pull off dark-nighttime-environments as well and I can't wait to see what they come up with. It is obvious an awful lot of passion, creativity and attention to detail have gone into creating for instance the various buildings on Flotsam. I just wish for that added layer of dream-like pirate-village with something sinister around the corner, just out of grasp.

So I also find myself in complete agreement with those who feel that the surrounding pirate inhabitants should be less goofy and a tad more serious, in order to provide contrast to Guybrush's personality. Now, story-wise, this could be "fixed" easily enough by having rougher types inhabit darker islands and just consider Flotsam to be a mostly harmless and pretty harmless and "safe" kind of place. I'm just afraid that Telltale's games thus far have generally been populated by various silly but still "nice" (or at least not intimidating) side characters. Design-wise, they look a bit too harmless and not especially fearsome (C'mon - they're pirates! They're allowed to be a bit ugly).

As for LeChuck - I fear his brooding presence diminishes the more he appears in the games, especially now when Guybrush is apparently able to stand next to him calmly with a smirk on his face and little to no sense of danger. In MI1 and MI2 there is a sense of dread and urgency regarding LeChuck. He is really out to capture, torture and kill Guybrush, and Guybrush reacts accordingly in those games. If Guybrush isn't really afraid of him anymore, then LeChuck just becomes a sad clown character going "Arr" all the time. I think he should be kept out of sight for as long as possible. It's like the shark in Jaws - it's scary because we know it's out there and could appear at any moment, but we only rarley see it.

[onlyamonkey]

This is a quality review.

[sladerlmc77]

corruptbiggins:

You have to remember that this is the first Chapter of the game. And to my knowledge the only real times we saw LeChuck in the other games, after the start of the game and before the final confrontation (apart from the 1st when he was introduced just towards the end) is in 'meanwhiles' in between chapters, and as we've just had the one chapter we don't know if Telltale plan to put these 'meanwhiles' in at the start or end of further chapters.

There are two specific examples I can think of when i'm talking about the "Meanwhile" sequences.

The first is in The Secret of Monkey Island. When I got the first game all those years ago, I really knew nothing about it. I hadn't really been playing computer games all that long, so I didn't know what to expect. All I knew was that my character wanted to be a pirate, and I was turned loose on an island.

In my mind, I was expecting a fairly typical free-form adventure - almost a sandbox kind of thing. I didn't realize yet that this was a humorous take on piracy, and wasn't expecting any kind of central plot.

I headed into the Scumm Bar, bypassed Mancomb and Esteban, and immediately talked to the Important Looking Pirates in the Next Room, wanting to dive right into the tasks.

I got my quests...and headed out the door.

Suddenly..."MEANWHILE" popped onto the screen. This was COMPLETELY unexpected. I had never played a game before where things were taking place (to my mind) independently of what I (as the player) was doing.

The cutscene introducing LeChuck completely captivated me, and after having played nothing but Nintendo up until that point in my life, I suddenly realized that there was a whole new category of games with PLOT. LeChuck was interesting and scary, and I couldn't wait to see more.

And this was in what was technically the 2nd room of the game. What motivated me to keep playing was to keep getting those crucial little bits of story - that didn't really reveal much, but caused my anticipation to skyrocket.

The second example I can give is from LeChucks Revenge. After becoming very familiar with the original game, I had a much better idea of what to expect this time.

When LeChuck was resurrected, he was a totally different incarnation. He may've been a ghost pirate before, but even as a ghost he was generally jovial. He may not have liked Guybrush that much, but he also didn't take him that seriously.

In LeChucks Revenge, the zombie pirate was out for BLOOD and TORTURE. He wanted to make Guybrush feel pain, and with each newly captured piece of the map, you came to appreicate more and more how powerful LeChuck had become, and just what the stakes were as he took his frustrations out on Largo.

This IS the introductory episode...but by leaving these little bits of exposition out (or postponing them for the start of the next episode), the pacing has been thrown off - and the time that we're waiting for the next episode COULD be spent debating a more critical cliffhanger.

Note: I think this is actually the intent of the end of the episode...I just think the stakes could've been raised.

Mad Muppet:

As for LeChuck - I fear his brooding presence diminishes the more he appears in the games, especially now when Guybrush is apparently able to stand next to him calmly with a smirk on his face and little to no sense of danger. In MI1 and MI2 there is a sense of dread and urgency regarding LeChuck. He is really out to capture, torture and kill Guybrush, and Guybrush reacts accordingly in those games. If Guybrush isn't really afraid of him anymore, then LeChuck just becomes a sad clown character going "Arr" all the time.

I think he reached the apex of evil in LeChucks Revenge (although the addition of Earl Boen as the voice in Curse more than made up for the fact that he'd grown a little sillier.) After Escape, I think we really need to ratchet up the evil again. Zombie Pirate LeChuck was truly frightening in a way that he hasn't been since.

I think he should be kept out of sight for as long as possible. It's like the shark in Jaws - it's scary because we know it's out there and could appear at any moment, but we only rarley see it.

I can only partially agree on this point. Don't get me wrong...I don't think Guybrush and LeChuck should come face to face again until the climax, but I also don't think that we shouldn't see LeChuck at all.

You have to contrast the characters and keep LeChucks presence at the top of the players mind. Even if he's not seen, his influence should be a palpable presence, always threatening to overcome Guybrush.

It'll be interesting to see how literal this translates in these episodes, as Guybrush grows darker and darker due to the pox.


Lorn

[lhnz]

Originally Posted by MadMuppet

As for LeChuck - I fear his brooding presence diminishes the more he appears in the games, especially now when Guybrush is apparently able to stand next to him calmly with a smirk on his face and little to no sense of danger. In MI1 and MI2 there is a sense of dread and urgency regarding LeChuck. He is really out to capture, torture and kill Guybrush, and Guybrush reacts accordingly in those games. If Guybrush isn't really afraid of him anymore, then LeChuck just becomes a sad clown character going "Arr" all the time. I think he should be kept out of sight for as long as possible. It's like the shark in Jaws - it's scary because we know it's out there and could appear at any moment, but we only rarley see it.

Agreed. As a kid, I found all of the LeChuck scenes in MI2 scary, and the end part of the game in the underground tunnels made me jump out of my skin everytime he appeared. I doubt the current LeChuck would have done that...

[Shanksworthy]

Originally Posted by MadMuppet

IAs for LeChuck - I fear his brooding presence diminishes the more he appears in the games, especially now when Guybrush is apparently able to stand next to him calmly with a smirk on his face and little to no sense of danger. In MI1 and MI2 there is a sense of dread and urgency regarding LeChuck. He is really out to capture, torture and kill Guybrush, and Guybrush reacts accordingly in those games. If Guybrush isn't really afraid of him anymore, then LeChuck just becomes a sad clown character going "Arr" all the time. I think he should be kept out of sight for as long as possible. It's like the shark in Jaws - it's scary because we know it's out there and could appear at any moment, but we only rarley see it.

Agreed. The sense of dread is definitely gone. It occurs to me though, that they might put an interesting spin on the whole thing. With LeChuck becoming human and Guybrush becoming partly posessed by the pox, will the tables turn? It might make for some interesting role-reversal in upcoming episodes.

If that's the case, then I'd be all for it. But once that's done, I want to go back to shaking in my boots at the mere mention of LeChuck (which admittedly would be a bit contrived, considering the number of times Guybrush has 'defeated' him).

[sladerlmc77]

Quick Note:

I played through the episode a second time, and found that it improved on the second playthrough.

I'm especially anxious to see the Marquis De Singe again (I'd love to see him team up with Largo LaGrande, if only he would come back!), Winslow will be very interesting to see developed, and I'm still thrilled with the puzzles.

Does anybody have updated opinions after having played through twice?


Lorn

[Astro Gnocci]

Oh god, i've been trying to mention the subject of tone (mostly the handling of anachrosnisms/sillyness) in several threads but i had completely overlooked this one...
Silly me

That being said, i don't have much to add, but i love reading you guys. Great analysis and i agree 100% with most of what's being said.

Another thing that bugged me was this "esponja grande" thing. Okay, it's only the first episode and we have no idea of how it will turn out, but... A giant sponge ? Am i the only one to think it's exactly the kind of "wrong" sillyness that was all over EMI ? When i've heard that line, i pretty much stopped expecting a plot i'd love. I'm pretty sure it will be good, just not quite "right" for me.
Also, i thought the writing overall was good, but just that, good. After seeing the sam and max episodes become funnier and funnier with each episode (i genuinely think the two last ones were masterpieces), it did feel like a disapointing drop in quality.

Okay, i'm sure this post is gonna sound much more negative than it should, so i'll just end by saying that i still enjoyed the game very much. I'm just thinkin this is (so far) not as great as it could be. I'm pretty much willing to let Telltale prove me wrong, tho, and i don't doubt they can.

[Steverin0]

to the OP - great writing, found myself agreeing with pretty much all your points and some nice replies from others too, nice thread. I gave this game a 6 in another thread based on my first hour of playing but in the end I actually really enjoyed it although I find it much too short, I thought there was going to be another island full of bars, shops and new characters and objects. Ah well hopefully not too long to wait.

[Nighttide]

On the topic of old-school, dark and brooding Monkey Island goodness (and I've been on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride many, many times, so I know what that's like), when I entered the Voodoo lady's shack, with the dark atmosphere and burning candles and long shadows, that's the moment I really started to feel like I was playing a Monkey Island game (or, you know, got that old feeling back).

I agree completely with the OP, and especially with the points made about tone. That said, I'm just glad to be playing a new Monkey Island game at all, so you won't see me complaining too much.

[zoobtro]

I don't have anything to add, just wanted to say I throughly enjoyed reading this thread. Great stuff sladerlmc77.

[sladerlmc77]

Thanks guys, for adding to the discussion!

Astro Gnocci:

Another thing that bugged me was this "esponja grande" thing. Okay, it's only the first episode and we have no idea of how it will turn out, but... A giant sponge ? Am i the only one to think it's exactly the kind of "wrong" sillyness that was all over EMI ?

Actually, this is one aspect of the plot that intrigued me, and I think there's a lot of potential to deliver. It reminded me of "El Pollo Diablo" (Guybrush: "The Devil Chicken?!") from Curse, and of the "Fabulous" treasure of Big Whoop from LeChucks Revenge.

It's just a classic MacGuffin - it's not the object itself that's important, just the journey to get there. Also "Voodoo Exfoliating Powers" makes me giggle.

Also, i thought the writing overall was good, but just that, good. After seeing the sam and max episodes become funnier and funnier with each episode (i genuinely think the two last ones were masterpieces), it did feel like a disapointing drop in quality

I agree 100%, but I also expect the episodes further on to get better as well. This episode has a genuinely tough job to do, as it's pure setup. After playing it the second time last night, I think the biggest problem this episode faced (besides the tone, which we've discussed in-depth) is what Fawful mentioned earlier - we don't really get a payoff for getting off of Flotsam Island. We spent the entire episode building up to what we hoped would be the lead-in to the main plot and - nothing.

Well...not really nothing - I think they wanted to ratchet up the tension with the arrival of Kate (Pretty sure it's her - she's probably upset about the loss of her glass-bottomed boat business), and with the potential cliffhanger of LeChuck wooing Elaine - but it ultimately felt anticlimactic. It wasn't really a sense of reward for getting off the island. (This is where I think a true "Meanwhile" sequence would've benefited the game greatly.

Nighttide:

when I entered the Voodoo lady's shack, with the dark atmosphere and burning candles and long shadows, that's the moment I really started to feel like I was playing a Monkey Island game (or, you know, got that old feeling back).

Me too! The introduction, with the rocking ships and the few moments with LeChuck also captured that feeling - I felt like it was only really regained when we entered the Voodoo Ladys creepy shack. (Also, great use of humor here - Chest of Foreshadowing is great!) One *minor* complaint that I have here is the Voodo Lady's voice - it's not the actress, she's great as usual - but she sounds different in every game due to the effects that are applied to her. She never sounded more ethereal than in Curse - in EMI, she sounded sort of hollow. (That was probably because of the reduced audio quality.) Here, something sounded - different - somehow, but I couldn't put me finger on it. Enhanced audio quality may correct.

Those two scenes, plus anything from LeChucks Revenge (and Curse, in my opinion) are what Telltale should REALLY be focusing on, tonewise.

I agree completely with the OP, and especially with the points made about tone. That said, I'm just glad to be playing a new Monkey Island game at all, so you won't see me complaining too much.

Totally agreed. It's my hope that Telltale won't see this as complaining or nagging, so much as offering some constructive criticism, care of the community at large.

That's also why I wanted to debate these points - I'm presenting MY viewpoints on what makes Monkey Island work, but I'm also interested in hearing OTHER peoples viewpoints, whether they agree or not. I'm especialy interested in gaining new insights from others observations, as sometimes all it takes is a slight change in perspective to arrive at new revelations that you never saw before!



Lorn

[Ignatius]

The only thing that bugged me from "La Esponja Grande" was its pronunciation.

Its not ESPONgea its more like in "Ham" or "Har!", EsponHA.

Shame on you Voodoo Lady!

[thesporkman]

Originally Posted by Ignatius

The only thing that bugged me from "La Esponja Grande" was its pronunciation.

Its not ESPONgea its more like in "Ham" or "Har!", EsponHA.

Shame on you Voodoo Lady!

Yeah, I also cringed every time Guybrush pronounced "De Singe" like the English verb meaning "to burn"* rather than the French word for "monkey."

*Or like Singe the Dragon from Dragon's Lair:

[AndyBundy]

One thing about the voice: I listen with my headphones and Guybrush has an echo whenever he's talking normal to loud volume. There are scenes where echo is intended, BUT in the voodoo room shouldn't be such an echo. He really sounds like me producing my radio show... and we don't have professional studios at all as liberal radio station. But I thought BAS got that. Or did someone add an echo fx?