Do you want to see Herman return? (spoilers for Escape)

[Sir Pantalones]

As we all know from the ending of EfMI, Herman somehow turned out to be the so-long-lost H.T. Marley, and returned to being the governor of Mêlée Island instead of Elaine, so that the adventure pre-ToMI could start.

This event was so filled with plot holes that the entire game's ending seemed like a huge joke, even though plot holes are no unfamiliar element to the MI series.
Nonetheless, my impression of the responses to this finale through ToMI seems to be that "bad ideas should be ignored", and the game can probably go on perfectly well without the return of the four-game hero Herman (even though one of his appearances was merely a puppet).

But am I really the only one who, despite his recent history of odd ideas, wants to see him return in ToMI?
I mean, lost memory or not, Grandpa Marley must've taken a few mental hits from being a lone hermit for all these years, and I doubt he's his normal, completely sane character. A (perhaps travelling) governor who's a bit giddy in the head, sort of.

(All in all, though, it feels like Escape just killed off one character to gain another, the latter not needing a further developed history.)

[guitarsareboring]

I'd like to see him in a cutscene as Governor... perhaps Elaine and LeChuck sail to Mêlée for some reason.

[doodo!]

I haven't see Tales yet so I don't know how they've even been avoiding him.
It depends how they use him, I imagine that future releases wouldn't use him for the plot but rather place him into settings for atmosphere and symbolic relationships between characters and there environment. I think he would be used to create a social atmosphere and subtext for certain scenes, filler. Herman really isn't a family man persona. He doesn't even wear pants,kids would be mortified, and placing him in that context would perhaps be comical but it might take too many creative liberties and end up destroying the Herman we know.

They would have to carefully consider his character and use him were he was funny. I think his persona is more target-able and applicable than his actual character is as it has evolved. Herman's persona really gave life to monkey island, esp because he was one of the few irregular, independent characters on the entire island. I think his character actually added character to the island and it's social atmosphere as well as gave us a symbolic relationship to man and island.

The character of Herman off an island would be domesticated and in clothes...wearing pants...They kept Herman simple in the previous games but now he's so different he doesn't represent the same creative ideas or carry the same image about himself that he used to.

I think it would be hard to fit a domesticated Herman into a settling, atmosphere off of Monkey Island. They would have to add him into a specific setting, environment where he reacted to similar circumstances as if he were in Monkey Island, like a pet shop or something...lol I don't know...

Herman was a brief screen character and was never really defined, relied mostly on symbolic relationships and comical irony to be defined. The relationship to the island for example and how it effected his mind. If you tried to place him into a logical function say governor it might be difficult to preserve the character qualities we've come to relate Herman as Herman.

Herman was the quirkiness, comedic relief of an Island...without the island it's sort of hard to imagine Herman. Herman was a close relative to Guybrush via the island but using him as a family character is almost comprehensible.

I don't see him in major plot scenes unless the game would be thematic in a way that required his presence or some other dis-similar presence.

Hope that makes sense because I really wish my ideas made some sense, thanks for reading if you did.

[jortlaban]

Escape from Monkey Island IS a giant plothole as a product by itself...

Elaine needs to have a re-election in MI 1, but in EMI she sais it's a life long term.

Herman Toothrot is an explorer who found Monkey Island, but Monkeys sailed his ship back to Melêe Island, his companion (the navigator) lost his head.... so HOW ON EARTH can it EVER be possible that Herman ends up to be Grandpa Marley????

and there are MANY MANY more of these examples

With Escape they tried to tie story elements together that were NEVER meant to be tied.
While the game is quite funny... it's only connection with the rest of the series is just the characters and locations.... it has NOTHING to do with the story and plot lines of the previous titles.

If Herman should return, he should return as Herman Toothrot the hermit.... not Grandpa Marley.

[a3HeadedMonkey]

I'd like to see Herman stranded on Monkey Island one more time at the end of Tales. Not as H.T. Marley though.

That did not happen! Herman Toothrot is not Elaine's Grandpa, ESCAPE DID NOT HAPPEN!!

[jortlaban]

Originally Posted by a3HeadedMonkey

I'd like to see Herman stranded on Monkey Island one more time at the end of Tales. Not as H.T. Marley though.

That did not happen! Herman Toothrot is not Elaine's Grandpa, ESCAPE DID NOT HAPPEN!!

Didn't you hear.... Escape's ending is just like MI2.
When they release Monkey Island 5, the opening cinematic will reveal that guybrush was just having a VERY BAD dream, and they are still on the voyage home from Plunder Island to Melêe.

He will find out that the american talking Elaine was actually a pre-cog meeting with Morgan LeFay and represents the inner struggle between his love for both of them. (which of course won't be revealed until ToMI)

Oh wait... I should have told you that yet...

(OOOPS... and I forgot the spoiler tags)

[Spadge]

Originally Posted by a3HeadedMonkey

I'd like to see Herman stranded on Monkey Island one more time at the end of Tales. Not as H.T. Marley though.

That did not happen! Herman Toothrot is not Elaine's Grandpa, ESCAPE DID NOT HAPPEN!!

Oh, come on. It's not the first MI plothole we've seen. You can't just wish it away. We as fans have to deal with it and denial is really not the way. The details may be a bit fuzzy and they may not fit at all, but the big stuff happened. I can imagine a loony and stubborn pantless H.T. somehow running Mellee island without much trouble. We all know people with power are crazy. Do I want to see him in the future? Sure, why not.

[Farlander]

Escape from Monkey Island IS a giant plothole as a product by itself...

All the plothole thing started with Curse of Monkey Island (there were barely any plotholes in MI1-MI2, considering their presumable original design), and blaming only EfMI for that is kind of a bit stupid, really. I mean, everyone bashes EfMI for plotholes (though there were in other MI games), illogical puzzles (though there were in other MI games, and I consider SoMI the only game of the series without illogical puzzles, so far), and Monkey Kombat (alright... duly noted... that MAY have a point... SoMI and CoMI, though, DO have insult swordfighting. And the process of gathering insults and answers is boring as hell, the swordfights became somewhat interesting for me only after I have gathered all the insulst and fought the toughest opponents, but since I already knew all the comebacks, it wasn't interesting at all; thanks to boss battles though, i.e. Sword Master and Rottingham, they kind of shined in both games, thanks to new insults. So yeah, I liked what they did with insult fighting in EfMI, by the way - no gathering of insulsts, straight to the boss fight). It's a good game, nonetheless (really hated only by a number of MI fans, by the way. I still don't really understand that attitude, considering I'm a MI fan myself). With great acting and music.

By the way, there is an explanation how the story in EfMI can be considered WITHOUT plotholes. I mean the H.T. Marley thing. Though that's not the point.

The point is, I liked that they did SOMETHING with Herman. He wasn't an interesting character in MI2... I mean, did he even have a purpose there, other than just for kicks? He was great in MI1, in MI2 - meh. If MI4 did the MI1 crazy hermit routine, it would really suck. Characters have to develop, and nothing get's more dull than characters that stay the same all the time.

So, if he does appear (and I hope he does) in ToMI, I hope they will make something interesting of his character, considering his whole bit crazyness thing with his H.T. Marley persona. And I do expect a "Where the hell are my grand-grandkids?!" question.

[Sir Pantalones]

To be honest, back in the days of the release of EfMI, I loved that plot-twist. Sure, I was just 11 years old, but still. I didn't really think of what it all meant; I just liked that he turned out to be more important than he seemed.

And yes, I read all that, Doolo. : )
And still, I know that the original H.T. Marley and Herman were not the same personalities. Marley was brave, heroic and proud, and Herman is whimsical, senile and pantless. To see basically a new character (a mixture of them both, so to say) featured in some way would definitely be the most interesting way to keep him in.

I just don't want his story to end, I guess.

[StansCoffins]

I'd rather not see him again, so I could pretend it didn't happen. It pretty much killed off two characters with one stone: the wacky non-sequiteur Herman Toothrot (part of the joke is that he is simply inexplicable, he even has a ship for fecks sake!) and the mysterious adventurer Captain Marley (who is until then painted as an awesome, adventurous figure). I know some fans get annoyed about people ignoring parts of TEH CANON!!11!!111, but I'll ignore something I can't stand if I bloody well want. As far as I'm concerned, the adventures of Guybrush Threepwood are a void of mystery from the moment he was whisked away from Blood Island until the ship battle opening of Tales.

Originally Posted by Farlander

The point is, I liked that they did SOMETHING with Herman. He wasn't an interesting character in MI2... I mean, did he even have a purpose there, other than just for kicks? He was great in MI1, in MI2 - meh. If MI4 did the MI1 crazy hermit routine, it would really suck. Characters have to develop, and nothing get's more dull than characters that stay the same all the time.

Oh come on! How could you not have loved Herman the hermit turning his efforts to... philosophy? Probably the most laugh-out-loud scene in the whole of LeChuck's Revenge.

[onlyamonkey]

They pretty much destroyed him and I for one just wanna leave him dead and gone.

[a3HeadedMonkey]

We discover that Herman has died in between the two games. It's the best for everybody I think. Just let him die. You know it makes sense.

[Farlander]

Oh come on! How could you not have loved Herman the hermit turning his efforts to... philosophy? Probably the most laugh-out-loud scene in the whole of LeChuck's Revenge.

Are you kidding? It was... crap. Herman's comeback (along with Men of Low Fiber combeack) was as unneded and forced as Murray's comeback was in EfMI and later parts of CoMI. The only funny dialog we have with him is about the treasure shortcut, which has nothing to do with philosophy whatsoever. By the way, MI2 IS my favorite MI game. As you can probably see, each is entitled to his own opinion

I know some fans get annoyed about people ignoring parts of TEH CANON!!11!!111, but I'll ignore something I can't stand if I bloody well want.

Meh, I'm not annoyed. Frankly, I don't really give a shit But I do still count that kind of attitude as some senseless fan non-sense, no offence. And that's also the reason I'm not going to ignore the fact that Herman was a philosopher - because it really makes no sense to do that, like it or not. I'm not going to start some kind of holy war because of that, though, no-no.

[StansCoffins]

Originally Posted by Farlander

Are you kidding? It was... crap. Herman's comeback (along with Men of Low Fiber combeack) was as unneded and forced as Murray's comeback was in EfMI and later parts of CoMI. The only funny dialog we have with him is about the treasure shortcut, which has nothing to do with philosophy whatsoever. By the way, MI2 IS my favorite MI game. As you can probably see, each is entitled to his own opinion

What about the whole "tree" dialogue? Meh, maybe it hits a funnier note if you're into philosophy.

It also reminds me of this: (about 8.50) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_SCV...eature=related

Meh, I'm not annoyed. Frankly, I don't really give a shit But I do still count that kind of attitude as some senseless fan non-sense, no offence. And that's also the reason I'm not going to ignore the fact that Herman was a philosopher - because it really makes no sense to do that, like it or not. I'm not going to start some kind of holy war because of that, though, no-no.

Isn't one of the reasons they set it 10 years in the future to get rid of some of the baggage the series has gained over the years?

[Ash735]

Only if they avoid the Escape explantion, but then again, Monkey Island history seems to re-write itself after every bloody game anyway, so herman could be a Hermit again saying he pretended to be H.T.Marley to get as many ships as he could, ...and sink them near Monkey Island. Yeah, .., that seems like something Herman would do.

Then again, I guess that's why some people (especially the people who hate Curse) don't mind Escape, as it tried to re-do what was explained in Curse, but to me, it was made even worse, at least in the retcon story of Curse, it made LeChuck look like some mastermind going around killing off each Crew Member one by one, in Escape, he was just a side kick and it made out that Ozzie was the great bad guy to bump off H.T.Marley, which somehow felt a lot less effective.

[Qwazin]

If he's as uncofmortable and weird as he was in Secret of Monkey Island. He was the best character in that game fo sho

[Fury]

Herman was pretty good. I found him really irritating, but that was the point of him.

I would like him to show up in the Monkey Island part of TOMI.

[Bagge]

Honestly, I don't really want many old characters to return. If the MI franchise is to stay fresh, we need new, well written characters, not just fanservice in the form of arbitrarily including a lot of old favourites.

Originally Posted by jortlaban

[...]When they release Monkey Island 5[...]

The only MI game to be numbered was MI2. The games after that are not are not officially called Monkey Island 3 and 4 and so on. However, if you want to use numbers when describing the MI games, TMI is the fifth Monkey Island game, and as such it makes no sense to label CMI MI3 and EMI MI4, but not call TMI MI5.

[kasser33]

I don't know why most of monkey island fans hate the EFMI twist. We all know there are plot holes but come on, this isn't a METAL GEAR game. Monkey Island series was made to entertain you. We don't have to go back to old games and keep ourselves busy in finding plot holes.

And hey, if Ron himself continued on producing monkey series, he would fall in such error. He said himself in SOMI:SE video that he didn't had any storyboard drawing and he simply just brainstorm ideas and program it directly which shows you he doesn't mind or care if he fell in a plot hole or story error. And that's actually funny that some people come up with a deep analysis of the characters from MI1 and MI2.

back on topic- I would like at least to hear a reference of Governor Marley. To me he was the funniest character through all the series even his figure in CMI .

sorry for my bad English. just wanted to share my thoughts

[thatdude98]

Originally Posted by Sir Pantalones

As we all know from the ending of EfMI, Herman somehow turned out to be the so-long-lost H.T. Marley, and returned to being the governor of Mêlée Island instead of Elaine, so that the adventure pre-ToMI could start.

This event was so filled with plot holes that the entire game's ending seemed like a huge joke, even though plot holes are no unfamiliar element to the MI series.
Nonetheless, my impression of the responses to this finale through ToMI seems to be that "bad ideas should be ignored", and the game can probably go on perfectly well without the return of the four-game hero Herman (even though one of his appearances was merely a puppet).

But am I really the only one who, despite his recent history of odd ideas, wants to see him return in ToMI?
I mean, lost memory or not, Grandpa Marley must've taken a few mental hits from being a lone hermit for all these years, and I doubt he's his normal, completely sane character. A (perhaps travelling) governor who's a bit giddy in the head, sort of.

(All in all, though, it feels like Escape just killed off one character to gain another, the latter not needing a further developed history.)

Nah, most people think that all copies of escape from monkey island should be thrown in a ditch somewhere in the middle of a desert along with the copies of E.T. and then burned to a crispy freaking crisp. Most fans absolutely want nothing to do with "that piece of crap that dares to call itself monkey island" and you can see that even in TMI Telltale is trying to avoid it completely. There's only been one reference to EMI in TMI, and that was just kind of an "hey this game exists." more than it was a "hey, this game is reference worthy". So I don't think they're going to do anything from MI4, because unfortunately most of the MI fans hate that game.