Any chance of activation-free release?

[Laser Eyes]

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments for and against online product activation. So I won't go over them all again. All I'll say is I extremely dislike online activation for games and I will not buy any game that requires it. My main gripe is that I require your continuing support simply to play the game that I have paid for. Yes I've heard the story that a patch will be made available if you ever go out of business. But that's like a cheque from a company you've never done business with. Maybe it will be honoured and maybe it won't. Who knows? There are no guarantees in life. BTW if Telltale ceases to exist who will release this patch? And is it a legally enforceable promise against someone? You see what I mean?

But I didn't come here to gripe about online activation. The main purpose of this post is to say this to Telltale. I sincerely hope that in the future you release a version of your games that do not require activation. Think about it. There are no disadvantages to you from doing this. After your game has been out one or two years you have already made the vast majority of sales. By releasing the game without the need for online activation all the people who would not previously buy your games for that reason will then do so. I am one of them and there are bound to be others. The risk from piracy long after initial release is minimal.

This is becoming a trend. Enlight have recently released a new version of X3: Reunion without the previously used Starforce copy protection. No doubt one of their reasons is to sell their product to gamers who were put off by Starforce: http://www.enlight.com/cmsel/press/view.php?id=52 Other companies are doing the same thing.

So how about it Telltale? Can I hope that some day in the not too distant future you will release a version of your games that do not require activation?

[Emily]

We have to do what's best for our business. Some people don't like activation, but on the flip side, if we didn't protect the games at all, we might not be able to afford to stay in business.

We pay careful attention to how the activation system works for people, and are always talking internally about how it can be refined to be better.

There are no disadvantages to you from doing this. After your game has been out one or two years you have already made the vast majority of sales.

Maybe in two years we'll feel differently about it, but after only two months since Culture Shock came out, we haven't reached that point yet.

[Tentux]

Yes we understand the need for a good activation system...

And the need for a good payment system. Emily, thanks for your email!

[Sacharissa]

I'm afraid I find LaserEyes's post just a tad hypocritical. He is obviously willing to run an OS that 'phones home' every time he changes his hardware config, and has to be activated within 30 days of installation or it will cease functioning. An OS that costs around £200 (based on the full version of the lowliest version of Vista.) Yet he is moaning about activation of a game that costs £20.

Come on, LE, get your priorities straight! Telltale are tiny, and yet you begrudge then £20 for a game because of PA. Yet you are more than willing to line the pockets of the Rogue of Redmond to the tune of £200 (or so) for an OS that has an even more rigid and restrictive PA policy.

You can't have it both ways. I would gladly pay TT £20 for a game. What I *WON'T* do, however, is pay ********** £200 for an OS.

Yes, I am forced to use a ******* box in order to play the games (Hint to TT: - Port to Mac, please! <g>) but it isn't mine, it belongs to my parents. But my days of paying hundreds of pounds for an OS that treats me with utter contempt (i.e. like a criminal) are over. I run three Macs and the MacOS does NOT have any form of PA. Never has and never will (Steve Jobs has stated that categorically). It's also cheaper than Windows (for the price of one Windows licence I can buy FOUR separate MacOS licences; or for £100 I can purchase a 5-licence 'family pack').That's what I call value for money!

Y'see Apple trust their customers, they know if they treat them with contempt (like M$ does theirs) they're not going to want to come back. So they don't. And is there a huge market in pirated Apple software? No, there isn't.

I only have two applications on my 2G5 that require activation: - One is Adobe CS2 and the other is, surprise, surprise, Office. The latter I only have installed at the insistence of my parents (who prefer using the Mac version to the ******* one.)

My intention is NOT to incite a flame-war, I just wanted to point out that LE's OP smacks of duplicity.

Sarah

[AstralWanderer]

Originally Posted by Sacharissa

I'm afraid I find LaserEyes's post just a tad hypocritical. He is obviously willing to run an OS that 'phones home' every time he changes his hardware config, and has to be activated within 30 days of installation or it will cease functioning. An OS that costs around £200 (based on the full version of the lowliest version of Vista.) Yet he is moaning about activation of a game that costs £20.

And why is this hypocritical? Most users have no choice with regards to Windows XP's own activation (try buying a PC with Win2K or Win9x installed nowadays) and Telltale aren't helping by labelling S&M as requiring WinXP (reviews and download sites mention Win2K also so it presumably works on that too). Of course, that is assuming that he is running XP in the first place...

Originally Posted by Sacharissa

Come on, LE, get your priorities straight! Telltale are tiny, and yet you begrudge then £20 for a game because of PA.

Well I'm going to begrudge them also (along with anyone else requiring activation) and for the same reason. I expect to be able to play games I purchase 10 or more years from now and anything requiring activation fails that test. If anything, people should have more reason to be tougher on a small company since they are less likely to survive, leaving users with software they paid for and can't use. The only form of activation that could avoid this happening is the "one time only, ever" variety (such as a product key you could save for future use which is how most commercial software works).

Yes, by all means criticise Microsoft for their obnoxious activation policy (which is the sole reason why I don't run XP and won't run Vista) but don't let this be a reason to let other companies compound the problem.

[Laser Eyes]

Is it really hypocritical for me to run Windows XP while I refuse to purchase games that require online activation?

There are some important differences between Windows XP and a game.

First, as AW pointed out I have no choice but to accept activation for Windows XP. The alternative would be that I wouldn’t have a computer at all and I would never be able to play ANY games from ANY company. Is that what I must do to avoid being labelled a hypocrite? Must I give up not only playing games but using a computer for any purpose? I my view I don’t think that using Windows XP disqualifies me from complaining about a game that uses PA.

Second, there is no chance of Microsoft going out of business. Let’s face it, that’s just not going to happen. I will always be able to activate Windows XP. On the other hand game companies go out of business all the time. It is a regular occurrence. There is no guarantee that I will be able to play any product I purchase from Telltale that requires activation if they go out of business. I’m hoping that doesn’t happen of course.

BTW you’ll notice that my questions weren’t answered: If Telltale cease to exist who will release the patch? And is it a legally enforceable promise against someone? I wasn’t really expecting an answer, as they were mostly rhetorical questions. But it’s like I said, the promise of a patch is like a cheque from a company that you’ve never done business with. Maybe it will be honoured and maybe it won’t, you just don’t know.

I don’t begrudge Telltale the price for their games. I like to support small game companies especially those that make adventure games. I would happily buy a copy of Bone and Sam & Max if they provided me with a copy that did not require activation.

[Jake]

Refusing to purchase something is fine as long as you don't pirate it.

[Maratanos]

Originally Posted by Laser Eyes

I'm sure you've heard all the arguments for and against online product activation. So I won't go over them all again. All I'll say is I extremely dislike online activation for games and I will not buy any game that requires it. My main gripe is that I require your continuing support simply to play the game that I have paid for. Yes I've heard the story that a patch will be made available if you ever go out of business. But that's like a cheque from a company you've never done business with. Maybe it will be honoured and maybe it won't. Who knows? There are no guarantees in life. BTW if Telltale ceases to exist who will release this patch? And is it a legally enforceable promise against someone? You see what I mean?

But I didn't come here to gripe about online activation. The main purpose of this post is to say this to Telltale. I sincerely hope that in the future you release a version of your games that do not require activation. Think about it. There are no disadvantages to you from doing this. After your game has been out one or two years you have already made the vast majority of sales. By releasing the game without the need for online activation all the people who would not previously buy your games for that reason will then do so. I am one of them and there are bound to be others. The risk from piracy long after initial release is minimal.

This is becoming a trend. Enlight have recently released a new version of X3: Reunion without the previously used Starforce copy protection. No doubt one of their reasons is to sell their product to gamers who were put off by Starforce: http://www.enlight.com/cmsel/press/view.php?id=52 Other companies are doing the same thing.

So how about it Telltale? Can I hope that some day in the not too distant future you will release a version of your games that do not require activation?

My experience, actually, is that unlike other game genres, adventure games have a tendancy to have more drawn-out sales and not so much of a burst at the beginning. In other words, quite a few of their sales may be 3 or 4 years down the road.

[kadayi]

Originally Posted by Sacharissa

You can't have it both ways. I would gladly pay TT £20 for a game. What I *WON'T* do, however, is pay ********** £200 for an OS.

Mac fanbois..nothing worse, they always forget to mention that Apple have charged $129 for each OSX iteration (read service pack) since it first came out, of which there have been 4 so far (with number 5 due anytime soon). Strangely enough 'evil' Bill Gates and the foul minions of Microsoft don't charge for minor OS upgrades (having gone through all 4 OSX versions..they are very minor) . For the record I'm a pro mac user (Graphic designer), I just don't blindly think the sun shines out of Mr Jobs ass (unlike some).

Slightly offtopic, but I dislike people talking BS about how uber great macs are. It's a robust OS, but the boxes themselves (save the workstations)are destined for the scrapheap after 2 and a bit years because they blow bigtime when it comes to after sales upgrading, and they age rapidly. Not that apple mind at all because their real business is selling boxes, not software (the only Pro app they have is Final Cut..the rest are junk compared to other 3rd party apps).

As regards activation, personally I don't have anything against it assuming that once it's done you have access permanently. I have to say however that so far I've been wholly unsuccessful in actually purchasing an activation code as things seem to fall down at the payment confirmation screen (despite numerous attempts). I've no idea who the eseller is, but given I have no problems buying from Steam or Amazon, or anyone else for that matter it doesn't seem like they are the most competent firm to handle your business. I'm almost half expecting to find 8 charges for Sam & Max on my next CC statement next month, given the complete lack of responsiveness their system delivers.

I'd have to say that perhaps you as a company should look at selling S&M through Valves Steam software. I'm not sure what the cut is for Valve, but certainly in terms of exposure you'd garner a lot more notice.

[tabacco]

Let's not turn this into an OS war please.

[kadayi]

I guess the bit about the present purchasing system blowing chunks and the company maybe being better off selling it through Valves Steam system escaped you there. Sure Valve take a slice, but your getting access to something like 8 million users and inclusive advertising at each game launch. Psychonauts has gone down a treat on Steam, the market for RPG is there.

[tabacco]

I know what Steam is, I just don't want people flaming each others' OS.

[swi]

I just want to mention that i agree to Laser Eyes. I'm 100% willing to pay for software and i know that there is a problem with bad people copying software.
But to be honest, the way you are protecting your property is definitly a problem for all regular users. Protection Software has rendered my last Computer completly useless and of course nobody seemed to be responsible for my problem. Then i had to reactivate all my products and ... yes short time afterwards the system was unusable again. A glimpse at this forum reveals that there a couple of users having probs with their activation and i am pretty sure, that many of them will be unsatisfied with their situation. So you make your problem to your customers problem.

It's a pity, but i guess that the only users who won't have a problem with your cp, will be the bad guys with a cracked version.

I am no sissy, so you won't see me crying here, but i won't buy your product. That no prob for me and i don't think it bothers you. But don't start whining if your profit goes down due to bad sales figures.

[Don't be upset about my bad english, i'm not a native english speaker]

[Jake]

We're aware of the fact that our activation system's limitations, and please believe me when I say that we're working on it.

We pride ourselves on good, personal, customer support, and one side-effect of having good customer support is that you know, on an intimate level, the problems that your users are going through, how many of your users are going through each particular problem, and what it will take you to fix that problem.

Changes to how something works - for instance, how we've protected the twelve different products we sell from our site - aren't going to occurr over night. Even updating everything to be Vista compatible isn't happening in the blink of an eye, and that's something we already have a solution for. We've got lots of plans for improving how downloading, installing, activating, and owning our games works fur you guys, but there is no "make it better" button that we can press to eliminate the necessary hours of work and planning that goes into doing something right.

Thanks for being so supportive of us so far, too! (including those of you who have decided to not purchase our products yet, but have also decided to not pirate them as well) I personally think we're doing pretty well for where we are. We use DRM, yes, but it's not malicious in any way (like something like Starforce), and we provide re-download links for every new purchase on your Order History page. And, our tech support is frequently lauded by you guys as being prompt, personal, and helpful. These things don't suck. That said, we spend more time with these games than I'm sure even the most rabid player does - including installing, uninstalling, activating, and redownloading them - so we know in and out what parts of them could be better, and needless to say, we're always working on making things suck less.

[swi]

Hi Jake!, Yes, i really do know that piracy is a big problem. But S&M is not the only product with CP. And usually one single product doesn't make much hassle, but combinations of different cp make things complicated. Maybe there's a Microsoft copy protection API in future, or a really good and compatible DVD/Blue Ray, whatever protection, but till then activation and system driver for cp is a mess. You wrote that you often install your game, but imaging a user, who is not working with computers all day (like most elderly people) with a couple of different applications and games. And what about your game in 5 or 10 years? Years ago, i bought my games and i can play them in 10 years if i want to, without any registering or any other anyoing mechanism. I don't have to ask myself, if the company is still doing activation for that products and i don't have to re-register. I don't mind any CD or DVD protection as long as it doesn't install anything within my stystem directorys or playing with my system.
And, yes. I am willing to pay a few bucks more for a game without any online register and activation stuff. I prefer buying a real CD or DVD - put it into my computer and start playing. I'm pretty sure you know the good times too, where you had your handbook and looked up first word on line 20 of page 10 I still can play these games today and i don't have to worry much (indeed most problems with these games are caused by copyprotection...).

So i am waiting for your "sucking less" copy protection and i would be glad to be one of your customers, who bought a S&M CD/DVD without hassle

[Jasirus]

I am not a huge fan of Copy Protection myself. I've had very little issue with any of the telltale games in this regard. I completely agree that from a business sense you have to insure that you protect your revenue stream. Though I will say the business tactics of larger companies in regards to DRM have been unscrupulous at best.

Pipe dreaming of coarse I wish there was a way I could make sam and max portable, so I could take it with me on thumb drive and get my fix during breaks, but I know this would just make it easier for the pirates.

Ever evolving , I am looking forward to what the future holds for telltale

[bnf]

Hi,

I felt the need to comment on this thread

Originally Posted by Jasirus

I am not a huge fan of Copy Protection myself.

Neither am I. I hate copy protection with a passion, since it's at best an inconvenience, at worst a major problem - and ironically only for the honest buyer!

Originally Posted by Jasirus

I've had very little issue with any of the telltale games in this regard.

Same here. I was very sceptical about Sam & Max Episodes, for various reasons: the episodic concept, the bad press Sam & Max got after Lucasgames decided to cancel Sam & Max 2, my high expectations since I have some very fond memories of the original Sam & Max hit the road - but I tried the demo of Episode 1 when it came out and I was taken by storm and bought the entire Series 1 bundle right away. I love it and I haven't had any problems with the drm or the game itself (although I'm not entirely pleased that 1280*1024 is not supported).

Originally Posted by Jasirus

I completely agree that from a business sense you have to insure that you protect your revenue stream. Though I will say the business tactics of larger companies in regards to DRM have been unscrupulous at best.

That I do not agree with. In my opinion, copy protection made sense back when people copied games and traded them with each other. That was something copy protection could prevent. Nowadays, pirated releases of the game can easily be downloaded by pretty much everybody and those pirated copies can be shared with people who are not internet savvy. I firmly believe that copy protection only hurts the honest buyers (more or less, depending on the protection used) and doesn't impact pirates at all since every game, even those with the nastiest protections end up getting pirated. I'm sure that the only way to sell a game is to provide a good game, not to slap a placebo protection on it - THQ and Bethsoft proved lately that you can sell games without copy protection just as well as games with Starforce and whatnot.

Anyway, to the thread starter: as I said, I hate copy protection, I really do, but Sam & Max Episodes have not caused any problems for me and I can only urge you to give it a try. The games are really good, I can't wait for Episode 4 and I hope enough people support Telltale so we'll get a Season 2.

[Soultaker]

I can understand that Telltale Games wants to be provide the game exclusively to their customers for at least the first few weeks after release, but it is pretty well known that any protection scheme will be broken eventually, especially if a game contains no online content.

I don't know if you monitor these things, but cracked versions of all three episodes of Sam&Max are readily available and provide 100% of the content without any hassle. Ofcourse I paid for my games because I think it's fair to do so, and it's nice to be able to play them a few weeks earlier, but if you think DRM is preventing people from playing the game without paying, you're dead wrong.

However, I do worry that if I want to replay these games in a few years, it may entirely impossible, either because the complicated DRM schemes used don't work with future operating systems (there were already problems with Windows Vista) or because Telltale Games or Digital River have dropped support for the game or the DRM system (or have gone bankrupt, or lost my registration info, or for some other reason can't/won't support the game anymore). Are you willing to guarantee that the activation system will work indefinitely?

A more practical issue: will the DRM also be present on the CD version that will be shipped after the series is done? Personally, I would like to have a physical copy of the game so I know I can play it later, without having to depend on my current hard disk or your webservers. However, I wonder what the point is if it requires activation and Telltale can't support the game indefinetely. In that case, isn't everyone much better of just downloading the cracked versions of the games (since they don't rely on any support from Digital Rivir or Telltale Games) and burn those on a CD?

Or phrased differently, what do you have to lose by offering an activation-free release as a service to your honest customers later, when cracked versions are already available anyway?

[Maratanos]

Well, let's put it this way:

Amazingly, there are some people that DRM discourages from abusing their game. It's like the need to put a CD in the drive for store-bought games. It's not so that people won't steal the game and play it for free, it's so that people who DID buy it won't give it away for free.

[schuubars]

In common i have no problems with DRM as long the Dev./Publ. provides a solution if something goes wrong with business.

I use several DRM products, from different companys, but it is in fledgling stage(imo).

And Country restrictions getting on my nerves. (D2D).

But in case(as example) of EA Games, i will not support them, they just trying to rip off the customers. (prices are crazy, and support is crap like UBI too.)