ToMI review/retrospective

[birky]

I'm currently attempting a 52 games in 52 weeks blog (originally started in response to my wife taking part in the 52 books in 52 weeks project).

for those of you interested, it's here.
(It's a big of a shameless plug, but at least it's relevant.)

To actually turn this into a worthwhile discussion, I found the more I've thought about ToMI the more I've enjoyed it. I loved the games, minus a couple of niggles, but I think the more I've gone back and pieced the plot back together the more I've enjoyed it's depth.

Has anyone else found this?

[Uzrname]

Do you actually finish each game in a week?
If so, quick question: where can I buy THAT much time?

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by birky

To actually turn this into a worthwhile discussion, I found the more I've thought about ToMI the more I've enjoyed it. I loved the games, minus a couple of niggles, but I think the more I've gone back and pieced the plot back together the more I've enjoyed it's depth.

Has anyone else found this?

Yes, I've found that too. At first my reaction to the series was 'meh' and 'I hate the controls!', and I never got the series until after the fifth episode came out. (in retrospect that is a Good Thing because I would have gone INSANE waiting for Rise of the Pirate God to come out) And I was strongly inclined not to like Morgan because she was a new character and she wasn't Carla.

Boy did my opinion do a complete 180. The story hooked me by the end of Siege of Spinner Cay, and I played through both Trial and Execution of Guybrush Threepwood and Rise of the Pirate God as fast as possible because I wanted to know what happened and how it would end. And Morgan managed to kick Carla out from the position of 'Favourite Character That Isn't Guybrush or Elaine', which Carla had been in since 1991. I can't chalk that up to the gameplay since you don't play as Morgan, that's purely down to the writing.

I've now gone back and replayed my way through the entire series in much more depth, and yeah, now I appreciate the storyline and plot a lot more. Maybe if I hadn't spent most of Launch of the Screaming Narwhal going "OMG THIS IS DIFFERENT I'M AFRAID OF CHANGE!" then I would have appreciated the writing more at the time. The other thing I've noticed a lot more in replays is how a lot of the music in Tales is based on music from the earlier games, and I really like that, it's a nice touch. But my favourite aspects of the game by far are the writing and the voice acting, more than the puzzles, more than the visuals, it's the story that really makes me love Tales.

[birky]

Originally Posted by Uzrname

Do you actually finish each game in a week?
If so, quick question: where can I buy THAT much time?

Not quite,I reckon I played episodes 3-5 in a week though.

Leviathan came out the same month I got married, so between that and a new house and Christmas etc. I'd been waiting for a chance to pick up the series again.

And Morgan managed to kick Carla out from the position of 'Favourite Character That Isn't Guybrush or Elaine', which Carla had been in since 1991. I can't chalk that up to the gameplay since you don't play as Morgan, that's purely down to the writing.

Yeah at first I was worried Morgan was going to be irritating, and an excuse to get Elaine out ofand the way to give Guybrush a new love interest. Actually I thought Telltale handled it really well, and I ended up thinking Morgan was one of the best things about the series.

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by birky

Yeah at first I was worried Morgan was going to be irritating, and an excuse to get Elaine out ofand the way to give Guybrush a new love interest. Actually I thought Telltale handled it really well, and I ended up thinking Morgan was one of the best things about the series.

That's the same way I felt, including the way Telltale handled it. If they had used Morgan to supplant Elaine as Guybrush's love interest I would have wound up hating her with a capital HAET. As it was, I really liked the way it turned out, especially Morgan having obvious feelings for Guybrush and Guybrush being too clueless/worried about other things to notice. Even though I'm a fan of Guybrush/Elaine, that still made me feel for her.

[Avistew]

I was so pissed with Guybrush for being clueless. Of course it's just like him...
I wasn't expecting him to leave Elaine and run off with Morgan, but at least acknowledging her feelings could have made the rejection less cruel. I really felt for her.

And at the same time Elaine was becoming gradually more and more evil and annoying. Although I hated her the most in chapter 2.
She's just never been a character I liked at all.

Anyway, in the end I'm glad they're still together and stuff, but I was pissed with both of them.

[Hayden]

Originally Posted by avistew

I was so pissed with Guybrush for being clueless. Of course it's just like him...
I wasn't expecting him to leave Elaine and run off with Morgan, but at least acknowledging her feelings could have made the rejection less cruel. I really felt for her.

If he did, I also might've prevented Morgan from whacking him over the back of the head with the handle of her sword and delivering him to De Singe.

[Uzrname]

Originally Posted by avistew

And at the same time Elaine was becoming gradually more and more evil and annoying. Although I hated her the most in chapter 2.
She's just never been a character I liked at all.

If your point here is to say that the more Morgan got a grip on her personality, the more Elaine lost it in the game - I totally share that. Because, when she turned evil, maybe they meant us to feel pity for her, as in poor Elaine, but I instead felt bad for Morgan. At some point near the end, when Elaine rejects Guybrush and he travels back into the rip (btw I think it's one of the most sensitive scenes in the whole series), I really wished he'd turn to Morgan instead, especially seeing as both are ghosts now etc etc.

But then we wouldn't have had to turn him into a zombie, would we? =)

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Uzrname

At some point near the end, when Elaine rejects Guybrush and he travels back into the rip (btw I think it's one of the most sensitive scenes in the whole series), I really wished he'd turn to Morgan instead, especially seeing as both are ghosts now etc etc.

Yeah, for a second I thought, they could be ghosts together and stay there or whatever... But yeah, that wasn't going to happen :P

[Kroms]

It's interesting how many people dislike Elaine. I never knew she wasn't that popular.

I guess this means they should make her look a little younger and centre the next series on her - making it a story where she earns Guybrush's and the fans' love, instead of just having it by default. That'b be a hell of a Monkey game.

Though, even if she was a little annoying, I thought she'd redeemed herself completely by the time Trial ended. One thing I do find a little off-putting is that she says a lot of very grown-up British things in this game, whereas she almost sounded, I dunno, modern or American in the first two (had barely any lines in the third; don't remember her much in the fourth). There has to be a balance between her older, ironically more "modern" version and the British one in CMI/Tales. I doubt her having said "buckets" to Guybrush's "Did you miss me?" would count as such.

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Kroms

I guess this means they should make her look a little younger and centre the next series on her

Huh? Where dd you see that she should be younger? That seems a weird reasoning.

I didn't find her redeemed in the end at all. She has that "I know-it-all, I'm doing my own thing without warning anyone even though it might create more trouble for everybody" thing that I really don't like. And she's manipulative and insulting to Guybrush, like she thinks he's stupid or something. It's really her condescending tone that I don't like.
In chapter two, the way she just forces her way on Guybrush made my "meh" feeling for her go towards hatred. She was so horrible, it disgusted me. It just feels like she thinks he's her "thing and that she can do whatever she wants, decide, and he'll be forced to follow.

I really didn't like that aspect of her. So no, the end where it's revealed that she had a plan all along and hid it, unless of course she's lying and just pretending she knew all along, didn't redeem her in any way to me. In both ways it made her look pretentious and caring more about being right than her husband's well-being.

It's still possible her attitude will be explained in future seasons, mind you, but for now I really dislike her.

[Jen Kollic]

I'm surprised at the dislike for Elaine as well, IMO throughout the series she's always been a strong female character who is capable of rescuing herself if needs be, something that she got a lot of kudos for in gaming magazines back in the day. And she stays that way in Tales, just with a bit more scheming and a lot more Pox/Demon-induced fury.

I certainly wouldn't take anything she says to Guybrush while Poxed/a demon bride seriously, yes she says and does terrible, hurtful things but she's not in full control of her actions. If she REALLY felt that way then I don't think she'd have married him in the first place, and she certainly wouldn't stay married to him. And I'm also of the opinion that agreeing to become LeChuck's demon bride wasn't a rejection of Guybrush, it was the only way she could get the Cutlass of Kaflu, as a mortal she wouldn't even be able to hold it. Also, I don't think EVERYTHING was part of her plan, there were some things that didn't go as expected, Guybrush getting killed for a start. At the end she does act like it's all been part of a plan, but that could just be to keep up appearances. Guybrush has shown that he is prone to bouts of hubris that can turn him into a total douche (see: MI2) so I think he does need Elaine and her attitude to keep him grounded.

Re: her Britishness, one of the few things I liked about Escape at the time was her American voice actress. But if you think Tales Elaine is mean to Guybrush, she's a lot worse in Escape. However, thanks to Tales the English voice has really grown on me. Possibly a reason for her being British to begin with in Curse would be because a lot of governmental officials in the Carribean at the time would have been British. Then again, insisting on historical accuracy in MI games is a bit like insisting that classic Sierra games shouldn't randomly kill you for no reason, sooooo... *shrug* Also I did wonder if they brought Alexandra Boyd back so that people might subconsiously link Elaine with Elizabeth Swann in PotC. Except Elaine is SO much better.

Going back to Morgan, in Guybrush's defence she's not really that overt with 'OMG I LOVE YOU', she's quite subtle about it, which I like. And Guybrush isn't good with subtlety, plus IMO he's so in love with Elaine that he wouldn't consider the possibility of being with another woman. (but that is just my opinion) Also, she does go through that period of "omg you are so lame" in Lair of the Leviathan too, so it's not like she hasn't been mean to him either. If Morgan had constantly been chasing after him trying to get him to leave Elaine for him, I wouldn't have liked her anywhere near as much as I do.

I think Morgan realised that Elaine was the only woman for Guybrush pretty early on, which is why she betrayed him at the end of Lair of the Leviathan, something she really regretted after she thought about it for a while. And after Guybrush gets zapped with root beer by Demon Elaine, she pretty much orders him to find a way to go back and save her (Elaine) anyway, it was that bit that really made me love her as a character. She has feelings for Guybrush, yes, but she accepts that he's in love with Elaine and rather than exploit his feelings of rejection to get him for herself, she encourages him not to give up on his wife and to go back and save her. D'awwwwwww.

Finally, does Morgan really need to be with Guybrush? She's awesome all by herself without being a love interest, so I'd like things to stay that way if/when she comes back.

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

I certainly wouldn't take anything she says to Guybrush while Poxed/a demon bride seriously

The parts that got to me were:
A) In chapter 2, when no matter how many times you say "no", she looks at you with weird eyes and a pouty face and uses a weird voice to keep insisting. That's manipulative, demeaning and forceful. I don't understand why because it's a female doing it people think it's "cute" while if a man did it to a woman it would be considered abuse. I seriously wanted to smash her through the screen at that time.

B) After she's back to normal, the way she speaks to Guybrush is so... "I knew it all". Either it's true and she didn't warn him in any way, or it's not and she's just showing off. Either way it doesn't show her in a good light.

That's the two things that really annoyed me, and she isn't poxed for either. She's her normal self.

In contrast Morgan, even though she ends up betraying Guybrush, has been more honest and straighforward. She tells her from the start that she was sent after him, and that she's his fan. She does honour her contract but considering the position she was in, either way she would have been betraying someone.
I wouldn't say I'm a huge fan of Morgan, although I do like her, but I think she did make Elaine look very bad in comparison. It seems to me that was the point. Morgan was what Elaine never seemed to be (looking up to Guybrush, etc) and human LeChuck had traits Guybrush doesn't have either (strength for instance).
I guess the story's point is "even when they were away from each other and with people we were/appeared better, their couple survived" or something like that.

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by avistew

Huh? Where dd you see that she should be younger? That seems a weird reasoning.

I didn't find her redeemed in the end at all. She has that "I know-it-all, I'm doing my own thing without warning anyone even though it might create more trouble for everybody" thing that I really don't like. And she's manipulative and insulting to Guybrush, like she thinks he's stupid or something. It's really her condescending tone that I don't like.
In chapter two, the way she just forces her way on Guybrush made my "meh" feeling for her go towards hatred. She was so horrible, it disgusted me. It just feels like she thinks he's her "thing and that she can do whatever she wants, decide, and he'll be forced to follow.

I really didn't like that aspect of her. So no, the end where it's revealed that she had a plan all along and hid it, unless of course she's lying and just pretending she knew all along, didn't redeem her in any way to me. In both ways it made her look pretentious and caring more about being right than her husband's well-being.

It's still possible her attitude will be explained in future seasons, mind you, but for now I really dislike her.

I don't see how she's condescending. You essentially hate that she's a little independent...

RE:younger - I guess part of the negative aspect was that she looked and sounded older in the new games; specifically, a bit older than Guybrush. It doesn't work as well, I think.

[Uzrname]

Originally Posted by avistew

It's really her condescending tone that I don't like.
In chapter two, the way she just forces her way on Guybrush made my "meh" feeling for her go towards hatred. She was so horrible, it disgusted me. It just feels like she thinks he's her "thing and that she can do whatever she wants, decide, and he'll be forced to follow.

Some could say "HATRED! RAGE!" but I don't consider it as one. You are somewhat right as I resented the same thing. I guess the problem with Elaine is that she thinks Guybrush is so much in love with her (which I'm not saying is false belief) that she can get pissy with him. This, along with Guybrush's behavior, almost makes me see all their "love" thing kinda forced down the throat, if you know what I mean. In Tales it's shown like granted, like "this is what love is supposed to be", while their relationship itself is, shall I say, a bit goofy from the start.

[Uzrname]

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

Going back to Morgan, in Guybrush's defence she's not really that overt with 'OMG I LOVE YOU', she's quite subtle about it, which I like. And Guybrush isn't good with subtlety, plus IMO he's so in love with Elaine that he wouldn't consider the possibility of being with another woman. (but that is just my opinion) Also, she does go through that period of "omg you are so lame" in Lair of the Leviathan too, so it's not like she hasn't been mean to him either. If Morgan had constantly been chasing after him trying to get him to leave Elaine for him, I wouldn't have liked her anywhere near as much as I do.

Well, have you ever seen a girl go that on a guy? If someone was to go like that on me, I'd only be disgusted. And I guess it's good that Morgan isn't as sentimental as Elaine, this is what kinda makes me fall for her too. Morgan is balanced, patient and better oriented in general, even despite her bold spirit. She is way less all over the place than Elaine in many situations, which doesn't make her less of a woman either.

However, I have doubts about her personality. While Elaine seems generally open-minded and straightforward in her demeanor, Morgan feels kinda tricky, kinda like her real goal is not at all the one she intends. Maybe she pushed Guybrush back in hopes for him to get rejected even more and eventually forget completely about Elaine. And LeChuck... well, that was pure revenge, not really help. Which furthermore proves that Morgan knows how to plan things.

I'd really like to see some more of Morgan's rivalry to win Guybrush's love. Not necessarily meaning that she would succeed, but kinda always trying to win him back, like part of some cliche.

[birky]

I don't think dislike is the word I'd use for Elaine, but she's probably the hardest character to pin down (and I'd imagine write for) in the whole series.

I always thought the Bristish accent made sense, as if Elaine's family were land owners (i.e govenors) then their wealth would have to come from elsewhere. Briain makes a pretty obvious choice (somehow a dutch or French Elaine just doesn't seem right.) Plus her being one step ahead is a pretty standard part of the game (well apart from when she's a gold statue).

I think the Elaine from EMI is my least favorite, but then Lucasarts when for this whole day-time sitcom relationship for the two of the them. This ment that if generally felt like Elaine treated Guybrush more like a child than a spouse. On the other hand MI2 has the most mature (or messy) take on Guybrush and Elaine's relationship. I'm glad Tales made some headway on getting that back to a more human and capable Elaine.

(Having said all of that, I did get fairly frustrated with her in Spinner Cay - She's a pirate governess, not a middle-class greenpeace supporter. It doesn't quite wash that she didn't trust LeChuck that far back in the story, but then it'll be an interesting one to watch for another play through.)

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by avistew

A) In chapter 2, when no matter how many times you say "no", she looks at you with weird eyes and a pouty face and uses a weird voice to keep insisting. That's manipulative, demeaning and forceful. I don't understand why because it's a female doing it people think it's "cute" while if a man did it to a woman it would be considered abuse. I seriously wanted to smash her through the screen at that time.

Actually, that bit reminded me of the bit in MI2 where Guybrush gets Elaine to talk to him by going "Sugarboots!" "Plunder bunny!" etc, it's not really that much different. (Until Guybrush royally screws up by implying that he's only interested in the map anyway)

Originally Posted by Uzrname

Well, have you ever seen a girl go that on a guy?

Isn't that pretty much exactly what Guybrush and Elaine did in the first game? I think you're right about Morgan's tricky nature and motivations though, as well as attacking LeChuck out of revenge it was most likely part of her deal with the Voodoo Lady too, so it was in her own best interests. Though to be fair to Morgan, she did sacrifice her reputation/independence/whatever that shred was to help Guybrush complete the spell to open the Crossroads. (then again, since she seemed to think she'd be able to travel through as well, it might not have been entirely altruistic)

The other thing about Morgan is that I'd be surprised if she doesn't have a few relationship issues, what with her killing her first love and all. I got the impression that she'd killed him to avenge the death (or murder) of her uncle Jugbender but still, there's gotta be a few issues stemming from that.

[Uzrname]

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

Isn't that pretty much exactly what Guybrush and Elaine did in the first game?

In fact, it isn't. Their encounter was more like:

- Mrs. Marley...
- Mr. Threepwood...
- Elaine!
- Guybrush!
- SUGARBOOTS!!!
- PLUNDER BUNNY!!!

You know, it was increasing. Because she felt Guybrush feel the same thing. Now imagine how awkward would Morgan sound if she goes the same on Guybrush. I think he'll just finish with "OH SHUT UP ALREADY!!!"

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

she did sacrifice her reputation/independence/whatever that shred was to help Guybrush complete the spell to open the Crossroads. (then again, since she seemed to think she'd be able to travel through as well, it might not have been entirely altruistic)

Actually, it WAS her Shred of Life. She lied about it to him. But she knew what she was doing, once again, as she got her body back.

(Btw, wouldn't that make her a zombie now? =) )

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

The other thing about Morgan is that I'd be surprised if she doesn't have a few relationship issues, what with her killing her first love and all. I got the impression that she'd killed him to avenge the death (or murder) of her uncle Jugbender but still, there's gotta be a few issues stemming from that.

She's definitely a bit unsocial. It's always with people like that - if you follow only your personal goals and valor only your own well-being, you won't have friends because what are they for then? So either she learns how NOT to betray others, or she'll always end up drinking her misery away in a pub. I think that's Morgan's main dilemma.

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by Uzrname

Actually, it WAS her Shred of Life. She lied about it to him. But she knew what she was doing, once again, as she got her body back.

(Btw, wouldn't that make her a zombie now? =)

Has Telltale actually confirmed that it was her Shred of Life?

I did wonder if she'd come back as a zombie, and if she did would she then have to strike a deal with the Voodoo Lady for the supply of various concoctions to stop her zombie body from decaying? Because zombies aren't really known for feats of acrobatics.