ToMI review/retrospective

[Uzrname]

I don't think she would, I was just joking. Even if they make her return as a zombie, I hope it would only be periodic. Because this would make her lose of her outer Morgan-self.

No, they didn't. They didn't confirm the opposite either. It's just my personal thought. Hearing Morgan say: "Oh, don't worry, it's just my reputation" is like knowing you're being lied to right in the face, and accepting it.

[Uzrname]

And btw, if Elaine thought that abandoning Guybrush all to himself at the end knowing that he would still make it was ok, then she's a terrible wife and a really bad lover. Plus, that makes her look like she was aware of what's going on all along, which makes her a total b..ch =)

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by Uzrname

And btw, if Elaine thought that abandoning Guybrush all to himself at the end knowing that he would still make it was ok, then she's a terrible wife and a really bad lover. Plus, that makes her look like she was aware of what's going on all along, which makes her a total b..ch =)

I don't think Elaine knew that Guybrush would have to give up his Shred of Life in order to trap LeChuck between worlds. When Guybrush tells her they can defeat him by injuring him in both words at once he doesn't say 'also I'll be trapped there forever', so I think it's unfair to say that she was abandoning him.

If you don't use the Shred of Life on the rip in time, and LeChuck throws you back through to the ship, you see Elaine hauling herself up onto the crow's nest just as Lechuck comes back through the rip, she doesn't have enough time to get up there and stab him unless he's stuck there, but she was trying.

[Uzrname]

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

If you don't use the Shred of Life on the rip in time, and LeChuck throws you back through to the ship, you see Elaine hauling herself up onto the crow's nest just as Lechuck comes back through the rip, she doesn't have enough time to get up there and stab him unless he's stuck there, but she was trying.

Well, I didn't get there. Because once LeChuck got stuck in the rip, to me it was pretty obvious what item to use on him.

Maybe she didn't intent any of that at all. I'm not saying she intended it. But she just looked like manipulating Guybrush completely, and I agree with this p.o.v.

[Reaper Lyn]

Was it really Morgan's Shred of Life? I thought it was actually her independence - she mentioned to Guybrush that the thing she valued most in life was her independence, and what you hold on to is what meant the most to you in life... just my two cents, I don't think that's been confirmed, either.

I always liked Elaine from the previous games, I just think that, compared to Morgan, she didn't get nearly as much character development in Tales. Morgan got a lot of screentime, a lot of time for us to connect to her and that made her more popular, especially with Elaine being poxed. Although I actually really enjoyed that. Poxed Elaine was hilarious.

I really enjoy Morgan and Guybrush's relationship (and I would be lying if I said I didn't ship them a little) and I'd like more development on that part. Not necessarily into full-on love triangle mode, but... I want them interact some more. And Morgan is just so... conflicted. With her love for Guybrush, but her understanding that he really, truly loves Elaine (as evidenced by her willingness to help him save her in the last Episode), as well as the events in her past (falling in love with someone enough to tattoo his name on her arm, but then killing him. Now there's a story I'd like to hear)... she has a lot of depth. Especially once she realized (in chapter 3) that Guybrush wasn't exactly who she thought he was, and then decided she still liked him, anyway. It's probably pretty obvious now that I'm a bit of a fangirl for her...

And finally, to comment on the original topic, I concur. Although I liked Tales from the start, I think the quality developed positively from the beginning to the end and replaying it, I just enjoy it even more. I really hope TT will be able to add another story to the series, because there really is a lot more to be told. Especially for Elaine.

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by Reaper Lyn

And Morgan is just so... conflicted. With her love for Guybrush, but her understanding that he really, truly loves Elaine (as evidenced by her willingness to help him save her in the last Episode), as well as the events in her past (falling in love with someone enough to tattoo his name on her arm, but then killing him. Now there's a story I'd like to hear)

Plotbunnies... eating... brain... *flails* On the one hand I'd really like to write that backstory, on the other I'd really like to see Telltale's version. Argh.

But as that has no bearing on the thread, back to the topic! I do like Morgan and Guybrush's relationship even if I don't ship them, as I already said, one of my favourite things about Morgan is that she was prepared to ignore her own feelings for Guybrush in order to talk him into going back to save Elaine.

One of the things I noticed when replaying Lair of the Leviathan was in the dialogue between Guybrush and Morgan at the very end of the episode, Guybrush asks Morgan where she thinks the manatees are going, she replies wherever nature tells them to, and shortly afterwards knocks Guybrush out. To me, at that point it looks like Morgan is considering what her nature is telling her to do, which is to doublecross Guybrush. I might be reading entirely too much into it, but it's things like that which make me go back and play through the games again.

[Uzrname]

Morgan is complicated. I think we all agree to that. Somehow it also makes me think that, despite standing into the picture in those chapters, she'd still need some more char development as compared to Elaine in the story. Morgan's too memorable now to stay a one game appearance, and not too meme yet to become a side-char. It's an interesting situation, actually.

[light_rises]

Quoting because yes, Virginia, there is confirmation on this one (emphasis mine):

Originally Posted by ttg_Stemmle

< points one index finger to nose while pointing the other one at flying sheep >

So Morgan did lie, but it was about the Shred representing her reputation.

Also, just to clarify: Morgan doesn't get her body back. Just the ability to escape the Crossroads and roam the living world as a ghost pirate hunter.

And re: the topic at hand -- much of what Reaper Lyn said, as well as this from birky:

I don't think dislike is the word I'd use for Elaine, but she's probably the hardest character to pin down (and I'd imagine write for) in the whole series.

I think that last quote might the crux of it all when it comes to Elaine and how different fans can perceive her so, well, differently. (FWIW, it was ToMI that got me the most on board with Guybrush and Elaine's relationship, but I friendship Guybrush+Morgan harder than I ship Guybrush/Elaine. Then again, I tend to be more a friendshipper than a shipper shipper, so yeah.)

[Uzrname]

Originally Posted by light_rises

So Morgan did lie, but it was about the Shred representing her reputation.

How does that confirm anything? You quote one person saying one thing, another saying another. This is still on the gossip level. Did TTG team confirm it was the shred of any of those values thou?

Originally Posted by light_rises

Also, just to clarify: Morgan doesn't get her body back. Just the ability to escape the Crossroads and roam the living world as a ghost pirate hunter.

See, we don't ultimately know whether she did or she didn't. However, this is quoth from her dialogue with the Voodoo Lady after the credits roll (I presume everyone got there, right?) :

M: Here you go. I kept my end of the bargain. Now you keep yours.
VL: Alright, fine. You will get your body back.

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by light_rises

but I friendship Guybrush+Morgan harder than I ship Guybrush/Elaine. Then again, I tend to be more a friendshipper than a shipper shipper, so yeah.)

*snaps fingers* That's exactly the term I'd use to describe my sentiments towards Guybrush and Morgan's relationship. I've never heard of 'friendshipping' as a type of ship before, but that pretty much sums it up.

[light_rises]

Originally Posted by Uzrname

How does that confirm anything? You quote one person saying one thing, another saying another. This is still on the gossip level. Did TTG team confirm it was the shred of any of those values thou?

Look closely at who's quoting flying sheep. It's Mike Stemmle.

Originally Posted by Uzrname

See, we don't ultimately know whether she did or she didn't. However, this is quoth from her dialogue with the Voodoo Lady after the credits roll (I presume everyone got there, right?) :

M: Here you go. I kept my end of the bargain. Now you keep yours.
VL: Alright, fine. You will get your body back.

Erm, actually, the Voodoo Lady replied thusly (source, starting about 2:57):

"Yes, your actions have influenced your fate. I will allow your ghostly form to return to the physical realm to carry on as a fearsome pirate hunter."

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

*snaps fingers* That's exactly the term I'd use to describe my sentiments towards Guybrush and Morgan's relationship. I've never heard of 'friendshipping' as a type of ship before, but that pretty much sums it up.

*grin* I love friendshipping. Love love love it. There's a handful of OTPs I gush over, but for me, friendshipping's where it's usually at. It's so underrated, it's criminal.

[Uzrname]

Well, in this case, the end sequence can be interpreted in so many ways, the start of the next episode could practically be anything.

Nah, I'm not good at memorizing dialogues. But I must've been fed up the first time I saw this not to actually see how ambigous the end was.

[birky]

Now that I look back at it the ending wasn't really ambigious in my head - jsut a bit sudden. (i assuse it of being lsight Deus Ex Machina if i wasn't for the fact I'd been carrying round that (un)curse-ed ring for so long.

I liked the ending, but magic/voodoo will always be a bit of a paper of the cracks affair.

Plus it wasn't quite at good as 6 days a sacrifice for a final, I'm stuck here, puzzle though.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by avistew

In chapter 2, when no matter how many times you say "no", she looks at you with weird eyes and a pouty face and uses a weird voice to keep insisting. That's manipulative, demeaning and forceful. I don't understand why because it's a female doing it people think it's "cute" while if a man did it to a woman it would be considered abuse. I seriously wanted to smash her through the screen at that time.

Originally Posted by avistew

It's really her condescending tone that I don't like.
In chapter two, the way she just forces her way on Guybrush made my "meh" feeling for her go towards hatred. She was so horrible, it disgusted me. It just feels like she thinks he's her "thing and that she can do whatever she wants, decide, and he'll be forced to follow.

Well, idk what you all are on Elaine's case about that for.

Speaking as a married man myself, I didn't find it condescending at all. She just wants her husband to do something for her, so she's playing it up all cute and pouty. It's just an act, and sure she's only doing it to get her way, but he knows that. Married people act like that. I act like that with my wife, and she acts like that with me. Not all the time, mind you, but once in a great while and sometimes either of us will kind of laugh about how silly the other one looks while doing that. It's just something married people do sometimes, and I'll bet you someone over at Telltale is married and understands this. She's not condescending. They're married. They can get away with playing these silly games that married couples play with each other. It doesn't mean anything at all. Maybe it would be condescending if they were only dating, but they're not. Besides, you notice that Guybrush doesn't complain about it or seem to think she's condescending. If my wife played it up with me to get me to do something for her, I wouldn't think it she was being condescending either... after all, as a married man, I have to admit that look often says "I'll make it up to you later."

I really do think you all are making too big a deal out of it. It's just something married people do.

[Chyron8472]

One thing I don't get though...

About Elaine knowing everything that's going on and having a master plan.... There is an interview of Mike Stemmle I read in which this is said:

SilverWolfPet: There are a lot of controversial talks between the fans regarding the story of ToMI. Can you clear it up a bit for us? For instance, is it implied that Elaine knows about everything from the start? How much DOES she know and what was her plan, if she had one?

Mike Stemmle: Elaine has a history of being one step ahead of Guybrush, LeChuck, and everyone else in the world of Monkey Island. That’s because, well, most of the cast isn’t all that bright.

...and...

SWP: Why is Elaine wearing at the end the same clothes she was wearing when she became the undead bride? Does she still have powers?

MS: I don’t think her clothes reflect anything other than the fact that we really liked the outfit. The only power she has at the end of ToMI is her usual uncanny ability to think 23 moves ahead.

Someone explain to me when she has had such an ability that Mike and company seems to think she's always had.

In Secret, she did have friends on LeChuck's ship as well as a minor plan to get LeChuck sprayed with root beer at the wedding, but Guybrush messed that up temporarily, which she didn't plan for. She even had to make herself known when he ran in because she didn't expect him to show up when he did.

In Revenge, she didn't even play that big of a part. She only appears long enough to throw the map piece out the window and to later get Guybrush to tell her a story and then wonder if LeChuck has him under a curse but she doesn't do anything about it.

In Curse, she doesn't plan to get turned into a statue, nor does she help Guybrush more than to get the roller coaster stuck in a loop (but I thought that was to prevent LeChuck from killing people rather than to help Guybrush.)

In Escape, she spends the entire game on Melee Island dealing with trying to win back her Governorship from LeChuck, which she fails at until the statue he possesses is destroyed, after which she and Guybrush get Herman Toothrot to be Governor.

...someone tell me where Elaine has a history of thinking several moves ahead of everyone else around her.

[StarEye]

I haven't been following this whole debate, and I'm sorry if this has been answered before, or even mentioned. The voodoo lady's role seems to have elevated substantially in the last ToMI, but on a higher level than the actual story. It seems like it was put in there, mainly to hint us of things to come, or a potential (dare I say it?)... secret? Also, isn't the last episode the one where Ron Gilbert had most of his input?

It seems to me that the role of Voodoo lady was to prepare us for a big change in the MI universe. I'd love to ask Ron if he offerered up some elements from his MI3 story in ToMI, or some hints to how the story would continue if he had done MI3.

[birky]

Originally Posted by StarEye

It seems to me that the role of Voodoo lady was to prepare us for a big change in the MI universe. I'd love to ask Ron if he offerered up some elements from his MI3 story in ToMI, or some hints to how the story would continue if he had done MI3.

The interviews over here give a couple of insights into Ron's involvement, and they seem to suggets that it's more to do with character than plot.

In fact I think Ron was the one who suggetsed Elaine whould be several steps ahead. If you look at MI1 she certainly is. Also she's by far the most mature character in MI2 and tries to rise above Guybrush. She's also the only character which show any sense of responsibilty - i.e chasing after the explosion on Dinky. (Actually the fact that she can find the place suggests she's been keeping a eye on the situation) I guess it also taken some intelligence (or maybe wit) to govern 3 islands of pirates and not have them rebel and looy your mansion.

Beyond that they're no longer Ron's games, but she's certainly pretty capable in the seige at the start of MI3.

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

Plotbunnies... eating... brain... *flails* On the one hand I'd really like to write that backstory, on the other I'd really like to see Telltale's version. Argh.

There is no reason why you can't do both, you know.

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Well, idk what you all are on Elaine's case about that for.

First of all, I'm married too, and I think the way you explain it is a bit... I'm not sure how to explain that, but I would have preferred if you had used "committed relationship" or something. Some people spend their lives together and choose never to marry, that doesn't mean they're any less in a relationship, in a non-casual way. And some people marry and they've never met, and there is no complicity. So being married doesn't mean that much one way or the other I feel. It's not necessary to be married to have a trusting relationship, and being married doesn't mean you do, either.

Anyways, that part of the game awakened very strong feelings in me, and that's usually great in a game but I doubt that was the goal in this instance.
See, if she had pouted and he had been "oh, all right" right away, I would have found it funny.
But being Guybrush, playing him and saying "no", "no", "no" many times, in many different ways, and she just doesn't care, doesn't try to convince him with arguments or anything, wants him to do something that he really, really doesn't want to do...
It made me extremely uncomfortable, and it made me dislike her a lot. You can say no to her like ten times, but she doesn't care, she'll have it her way, you'll do what she said.
It didn't feel nice at all.

And in the end, she just acts like she knew everything all along. I doubt she did (if she did, I think she's even worse, barring a future explanation) but it still makes her sound pretentious and like she wants Guybrush to think she is something she isn't.

I might be overanalising all this, but likes and dislikes are gut feelings, that's how I felt. So I don't think I can convince anyone, since, you know, if you feel differently you just do.

On the other hand, I liked Elaine more when she was poxed. She somehow acted more like she cared for Guybrush (in my opinion/perception), even if there were notes of "you're my thing" in that.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Kroms

RE:younger - I guess part of the negative aspect was that she looked and sounded older in the new games; specifically, a bit older than Guybrush. It doesn't work as well, I think.

I can't wrap my mind around an Elain that wouldn't be older than Guybrush. She's already Governor in the first game, probably a major, which would be 21 at the time. I always picture him at 17 or so. I see her about 5 years older than he is, give or take.

I don't hate that she's independent, by the way. Although, when you're in a committed relationship, you do have to keep your spouse in the loop, I feel, so she can't be /too/ independent, either.
But she's not saying "I'll do this thing, okay?" and Guybrush tell her "no". No, she says "okay, you go and do this thing." That's not independence at all.

I've always felt that Elaine... That might sound terrible, but oh well. You know how some people write these fanfics and then there is the main character who is just like them, and there is that ideal female stereotype and she's madly in love with him for no good reason because he's the hero? I always felt that Elaine started that way, as the "girl who falls heads over heels for the hero even though she's always rejected everyone else, because he's that great".
And because of that, I feel their relationship always seems forced to me. It's like it fluctuates between some kind of friendship, with jokes here and there to really drop hints that yes, they're a couple, please don't forget that they're a couple.

I think there is also the problem that so far, Elain has always been away. You play the game on your own, so she's conveniently elsewhere. As a result you don't get to see them interact quite as much.
I can't see a reason why Elaine couldn't be around more. In episode 3 you ally with Morgan, in Sam and Max you're Sam but Max helps, in other words there is no reason for Elaine to be kept away, it's possible to do it differently, and I think it would reconcile me with her to see them interact more in an everyday way.

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by avistew

There is no reason why you can't do both, you know.

...that's pretty much the conclusion I came to as well. Moo hoo ha ha.

Originally Posted by avistew

I think there is also the problem that so far, Elain has always been away. You play the game on your own, so she's conveniently elsewhere. As a result you don't get to see them interact quite as much.
I can't see a reason why Elaine couldn't be around more.

I'd like to see that in a future game as well, I really liked all the parts in Tales where they got to interact.

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by avistew

But being Guybrush, playing him and saying "no", "no", "no" many times, in many different ways, and she just doesn't care, doesn't try to convince him with arguments or anything, wants him to do something that he really, really doesn't want to do...

Idk, I'm pretty sure that's just a parody of the bucket "puzzle" from the second game, except now you're the one just saying no over and over again. At least, that's what I thought and I found it hilarious being on the other side of it all.

In other thoughts, this game must have some pretty powerful emotional grips on folk if we're all still arguing about this issue.