The Next Chapter of TMI???

[Kroms]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Oh, hey

At least quote me fully.

I loved Harry Potter as a kid, but think the quality dipped a little towards the end. Rowling got lazy. Hallows had some great parts, but Prince fumbled the ball, tripped over it, smashed its head on the ground and then barely made it to the finish line. The last chapters are great, but for the most part the book's rather empty. (Or maybe I dislike it because a bunch of annoying pre-teenage girls I was related to kept blabbing about Radcliffe, and I couldn't get the cast out of my head as I read the book.)

See? I added two disclaimers.

So the game is bad because...you haven't beat it.

I have beat it. I'm just saying it's ridiculously hard. Now it's four years later and I'm playing it again, and now I'm stuck.

Ah, so you're in the "Citizen Kane is inherently inferior because it's not in color" crowd, or those that consider the Star Wars prequels to be better films due to the special effects. Note: A turd filmed with the most expensive cameras, and enhanced with bleeding-edge CGI is still a turd.

Clearly, based on what I said, this is the only logical conclusion. I totally agree with you. I mean, I don't get it, but that's just because I'm dumb. I don't get the intricacies of organic chemistry, but again that's only because I'm dumb. For that matter, I don't get any sex either but hey - it's because, clearly, I must be dumb. Even if it wasn't because I was dumb, I'm obviously too dumb to figure out the real reason, hence me being sexless - because I am dumb. I prefer CMI over LCR; empirically, I must prefer Phantom Menace over Citizen Kane. That's so ingenious it flirts with retarded. Or vice versa. Whicever applies.

EXACTLY the kind of stupid crap that doesn't work.

This sums-up your attitude. I think you know it's a great game, can't think of a halfway usable argument and then just drunkenly stumble across any excuses you can find. You've come across as the "I hate that Ron Gilbert was not involved in this" type. Which is why I will not bother arguing with you anymore.

Still, the Princess Bride did not play like a Saturday Morning Cartoon for a reason.

Neither did CMI, but you're clearly stuck on that point. LCR was the game with the "lit match in a room of dynamite", which I don't need to tell you is a staple of Saturday Morning Cartoons. It's best not to get your arguments mixed.

[GuruGuru214]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

(massive ripping-apart of previous posts)

Sir, you are indeed a worthy intellectual opponent. This sort of battle of wits is exactly what I love about this place.

A return to form, eh? Maybe all that slaw helped.

"GET ME MORE SLAW!" Might as well cue a piratey Popeye laugh.

I did say that it held better in the first two chapters and fell apart at the end.

I had to double-check by watching the opening scene of Curse again. I don't know what game you played, but the version of Curse I played has LeChuck start off by crying at Elaine like a pitiful, lost pupppy. All uses of Voodoo are completely accidental, due to some hi-larious hijinks that find our heroes in quite the pickle! LeChuck neither planned the ring nor his resurrection, they just sort of HAPPEN due to chance and happenstance.

I was referring to the cannon ball, not even thinking about the ring. Yes, LeChuck did bumble around quite a bit. If he was going to fire the voodoo cannon ball at Elaine, he should've done that right from the get go. The best reason I can figure that he didn't (other than "he's an incompetent cartoon character") is that it required some final preparation before it could be used.

As for the ring, consider this. LeChuck had the ring in his treasure hold, all of which he planned to give to Elaine. It's entirely likely that the entire opening was a ruse. Even if the cannon ball didn't work out (except in the unlikely event that someone below decks fired an unrestrained cannon, causing him to drop it), LeChuck may have planned on giving her the treasure and waiting for her to eventually put on the ring (and assuming her pride prevented her from taking the treasure, one can assume that 1. she would prevent the islanders from getting near it and 2. she could only allow it to sit there for so long before accepting that LeChuck had no intention of returning for it), at which point he would come back and collect the statue.

Okay, even I admit I'm just pulling this out of nowhere. I'm just trying to illustrate that he may have had a deeper plan. Even so, I'll give you that he was acting pretty out of character with the "lost puppy" thing, as you put it.

As for the resurrection, I wouldn't call it happenstance. It doesn't seem that there was any catalyst for it, he just didn't choose to regenerate until he had a ship. Unless the happenstance you're referring to is that he didn't spend eternity drifting on the ocean inside his boots, but was actually picked up by someone.

Which part was classic? The bit where he is rebuffed by standard "I'm just not that into you" excuses? Or the part where he's quickly disarmed and distracted? He's goofy here, he's not being a threat so much as a loud nuisance.

Disarmed, yes, distracted, I'm not so sure. Seems to me that he was deciding to finish off Guybrush once Elaine couldn't interfere anymore. As for the "I'm just not into you" bit, Elaine's excuses were the out of character bit, and LeChuck was relentless until the cannon ball incident, which was in character for him, even if the actual dialogue wasn't.

Somehow, I'm missing the part where LeChuck is displayed as being competent in Curse. At the start, he's pathetic. In the middle, he does nothing. In the end...he's spent the whole thing being this caricature, and he then goes about fixing that by...giving a cartoon villain monologue.

Maybe his dialogue was a bit pathetic in the beginning, but also look at his actions. He had a pretty decent siege going, and if Guybrush hadn't reentered the picture, who's to say how that would've turned out?

In the middle, he doesn't exactly do much less than he did in MI2, where he just shuffles around his fortress, ordering one clearly incompetent minion to stop Guybrush from doing whatever the hell he wants (and never takes matters into his own hands after Largo's repeated failures), and ordering a filler character to craft a voodoo doll he's apparently too lazy to make himself. In Curse, he spends the middle of the game regaining his power, returning to his stronghold, and ordering another incompetent minion to locate Guybrush (though to Dinghy Dog's credit, he did a better job of completing his mission than Largo did).

And yes, the explosion of exposition at the end was not the most elegant way to handle tying the game to MI2, but a lot of his story was more fitting with his character than most of the things he did in Curse. You have to admit, it does make a lot more sense that LeChuck was directly responsible for the deaths of Marley's crew than just pure misfortune, and murdering them all is definitely in character for him.

Though the part of his story where he bulids the theme park is indeed absolutely ridiculous.

After the story, we do see LeChuck pull two repeat performances: turning Guybrush into a child and leaving him to wander a carnival, and allowing Elaine to give him the slip. Not necessarily original, but still fitting with the previous games. And for the third time, Guybrush defeats him by turning elements in the environment against him.

"More menacing than Bob"? In what way? I suppose that's a really low bar to set, but still. Murray's whole shtick is "BE SCARED OF ME....p-please? :'(" Cartoonish caricature of a scary statement, followed by pathetic statement due to his state of being as threatening as a tablecloth.

I'm not sure how you got that feeling off Murray. My impression of him was a megalomaniac who's either too stupid or too insane to realize that as a talking skull, he really doesn't have much power to do anything. I suppose you could call that one definition of pathetic, but not in the way you're thinking.

Except I'd rather not go with what they "might be at some point in a future formed by conjecture", but rather what they are. Plunder island is a place with a chicken restaurant, a lemonade stand, a theatre, and a cartoon forest.

Right, and a jungle with a bush shaped like a dinosaur isn't cartoony at all. I did give you that the theater was out of place, and I feel Blondebeard's was pulled off as well as a chicken restaurant could've been pulled off, between the maggoty food and the backstabbing proprietor. As for the lemonade stand, I thought it was a nice touch that even the only child on the island was already a swindler.

They were definitely lazy and ridiculous, but they weren't a trio of singing barbers. Their overpowering character trait was "pirate"(or "pirate-skilled enough"), with Meathook's fear being an EXCEPTION to the otherwise pirate-y character traits rather than the freaking dominant aspects of his life. He didn't walk around, constantly talking about being horrified of parrots, never doing a pirate thing the whole time. That's a major difference between the great Monkey Island games and the mediocre ones. The pirates are first pirates with some odd quirks. The world is pirate-y with oddities and humor being an EXCEPTION, and it's all the funnier for the contrast. Curse and Escape are full-blown CARTOONS that HAPPEN TO FEATURE PIRATES, and I think that's the important distinction.

There's not much I can argue against here. The best I can say is that under the assumption that having the first island in the game be a retirement community for pirates was a mistake, turning the crew into seasoned pirates who became barbers in their retirement was about as good a way as they could've come up with to make them fit in with the rest of the island. Even assuming that the characterization of Plunder was a mistake, a bigger mistake would've been to have the crew be the only three "hardcore" pirates on an island of softer former pirates, pirate rejects, and pirates-to-be.

I would have preferred it, but not because I want Guybrush to be a kid somewhere. I just want an ending that doesn't feel like it's brushing aside the closing of Monkey 2. Does that mean that Monkey Island's "world" has to be fake and imaginary? By no means! There just should be an explanation that doesn't feel like "Well, magic!", just to re-establish a sense of status quo.

To be fair, Elaine's scene at the end of MI2 was pretty much a set-up for "well, magic!" You've got me wondering what sort of explanation would've satisfied you.

If I hate Curse, then I hate Curse.

I accept that, even if I can't agree with it. I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to convert you or anything, I'm just enjoying the "battle of wits".

[Chyron8472]

I still say that the arguments against Curse are grasping at straws.

Call me a Monkey Island fanboy if you want. I'm immune to it here.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by GuruGuru214

Sir, you are indeed a worthy intellectual opponent. This sort of battle of wits is exactly what I love about this place.

I have to say, this is an overall really good post and I have to respect just about the entirety of it.

I did say that it held better in the first two chapters and fell apart at the end.



I was referring to the cannon ball, not even thinking about the ring. Yes, LeChuck did bumble around quite a bit. If he was going to fire the voodoo cannon ball at Elaine, he should've done that right from the get go. The best reason I can figure that he didn't (other than "he's an incompetent cartoon character") is that it required some final preparation before it could be used.

As for the ring, consider this. LeChuck had the ring in his treasure hold, all of which he planned to give to Elaine. It's entirely likely that the entire opening was a ruse. Even if the cannon ball didn't work out (except in the unlikely event that someone below decks fired an unrestrained cannon, causing him to drop it), LeChuck may have planned on giving her the treasure and waiting for her to eventually put on the ring (and assuming her pride prevented her from taking the treasure, one can assume that 1. she would prevent the islanders from getting near it and 2. she could only allow it to sit there for so long before accepting that LeChuck had no intention of returning for it), at which point he would come back and collect the statue.

Okay, even I admit I'm just pulling this out of nowhere. I'm just trying to illustrate that he may have had a deeper plan. Even so, I'll give you that he was acting pretty out of character with the "lost puppy" thing, as you put it.

I suppose I mostly agree, and it's more a matter of "how much it bugs you" here. LeChuck wasn't in character, and the voice didn't sound in the least menacing to me. I didn't get it. Everything was funny and all, but it was less like meeting an old friend and more like meeting a nice person who also happened to be wearing a suit fashioned from your old friend's flesh. Very unsettling.

As for the resurrection, I wouldn't call it happenstance. It doesn't seem that there was any catalyst for it, he just didn't choose to regenerate until he had a ship. Unless the happenstance you're referring to is that he didn't spend eternity drifting on the ocean inside his boots, but was actually picked up by someone.

This is really relatively minor, and I actually have little problem with the finding of the boots scene. It's just that, well, why? In Secret, he was a ghost because he died. In LeChuck's Revenge, he was a zombie because he was "brought back from the dead" by voodoo. Voodoo, zombies, you know. It was odd to revive a ghost as a zombie, but that was half the fun. But his transformation into a demon felt...I dunno. Shallow. The last two games felt like they were going "Forms!" without feeling the need to explain anything about WHY. Tales actually did a great job with this(well, other than explaining the Walrus form...but I'll blame LucasArts on that one =P).

Disarmed, yes, distracted, I'm not so sure. Seems to me that he was deciding to finish off Guybrush once Elaine couldn't interfere anymore. As for the "I'm just not into you" bit, Elaine's excuses were the out of character bit, and LeChuck was relentless until the cannon ball incident, which was in character for him, even if the actual dialogue wasn't.

Eh, I suppose so, on a broad level. The problem is that he goes from attack to disarmed in a moment, gives up, and sends Guybrush to the brink. You don't get all of 2 seconds worth of time to fear for his life, and LeChuck is such a moron(throughout the first scene especially), I never felt threatened. It feels more likely that he'll trip over a banana peel and stab himself, starting the circle of reincarnation all over again. Or he'll say "DRAT! WHY DID I PACK THE RUBBER SWORDS?!"

Maybe his dialogue was a bit pathetic in the beginning, but also look at his actions. He had a pretty decent siege going, and if Guybrush hadn't reentered the picture, who's to say how that would've turned out?

The conjecture feels a bit empty. Maybe if we saw him actually sink at least a single ship, rather than get held back by one person manning 10 canons at once?

[quote]In the middle, he doesn't exactly do much less than he did in MI2, where he just shuffles around his fortress, ordering one clearly incompetent minion to stop Guybrush from doing whatever the hell he wants (and never takes matters into his own hands after Largo's repeated failures), and ordering a filler character to craft a voodoo doll he's apparently too lazy to make himself. In Curse, he spends the middle of the game regaining his power, returning to his stronghold, and ordering another incompetent minion to locate Guybrush (though to Dinghy Dog's credit, he did a better job of completing his mission than Largo did).
It's true that LeChuck has typically spent the middle of the games pacing around his base, giving orders. Gotta say, Largo's a bit more threatening than Dinghy Dog, whatever the success rate.

Also, I was always under the impression that LeChuck couldn't make a voodoo doll on his own. I just kind of assumed he was a bit inept at the actual rituals of voodoo, and he needed his own voodoo lady equivalent.

And yes, the explosion of exposition at the end was not the most elegant way to handle tying the game to MI2, but a lot of his story was more fitting with his character than most of the things he did in Curse. You have to admit, it does make a lot more sense that LeChuck was directly responsible for the deaths of Marley's crew than just pure misfortune, and murdering them all is definitely in character for him.

I don't think it's any more sensible. It feels almost a bit too "neat" to me, but it's definitely a livable thing that LeChuck actually went out and KILLED SOMEBODY at least.

I'm not sure how you got that feeling off Murray. My impression of him was a megalomaniac who's either too stupid or too insane to realize that as a talking skull, he really doesn't have much power to do anything. I suppose you could call that one definition of pathetic, but not in the way you're thinking.

I dunno, his secondary statement always sounded a bit defeated to me. You know, "Why do you have to take the fun out of everything", "Okay, ROLL!", et cetera.

Right, and a jungle with a bush shaped like a dinosaur isn't cartoony at all. I did give you that the theater was out of place, and I feel Blondebeard's was pulled off as well as a chicken restaurant could've been pulled off, between the maggoty food and the backstabbing proprietor. As for the lemonade stand, I thought it was a nice touch that even the only child on the island was already a swindler.

The thing I don't understand, though, is that people are fine with civilian pirates...when they're in Curse. Suddenly, though, when Escape is filled with pirates that are not pirates by profession, and when things take a turn for the horribly absurd, and when the puzzles are poor rip-offs...NOW, with Escape, they're despised. I just think the idea of a chicken restaurant, "El Pollo Diablo", and a lemonade stand don't work. Also, I hated the kid's voice, so that might not have helped. The actual puzzles around him were actually the better ones, too, it was just kind of..why?

There's not much I can argue against here. The best I can say is that under the assumption that having the first island in the game be a retirement community for pirates was a mistake, turning the crew into seasoned pirates who became barbers in their retirement was about as good a way as they could've come up with to make them fit in with the rest of the island. Even assuming that the characterization of Plunder was a mistake, a bigger mistake would've been to have the crew be the only three "hardcore" pirates on an island of softer former pirates, pirate rejects, and pirates-to-be.

Considering the idea of pirates whose business cards don't read "Pirate" is universally hated in Escape, it might be nice to see some consistency here. The whole idea sort of sounds right on paper, but when you go to execute it you realize you've kind of just set up a resort rather than a cool pirate location like a bar, or a forest, or underground, or a ghost ship.

To be fair, Elaine's scene at the end of MI2 was pretty much a set-up for "well, magic!" You've got me wondering what sort of explanation would've satisfied you.

It can be magic, though, is the thing. The issue is in execution. It felt like they were trying to get the MI2 ending "out fo the way". When writing a story, you don't try to drop story elements. When you're reading a series of books, you don't get to the end of one, just to start the next and have the big event of the last chapter get more or less ignored until the end, just to have the main antagonist reveal it was a trick. It's bad storytelling, because it was intended to nullify the second game's ending without organically integrating it into the story, because doing that might alienate the new audience.

Originally Posted by Kroms

At least quote me fully.

Alright. I'll do it next time.

Originally Posted by Kroms

Wedding Daze: caught this on TV at a relative's house; it was so horrible we couldn't stop. Ridiculous plot, ideas, acting, the whole-shebang, even for a romantic comedy. Just, done 100 times worse. It also has the world's most random, well, sex scene, I guess. "Jason said he was coming over." "Jason said what?" "That he was coming over." "That he was..." (scared) "...coming..." Then there's use of whipped cream. Yeah.

Though, nothing is half as bad as the crap Aaron Seltzer and Jason Friedman put out. I think they've cleared "terrible". They've come close to creating a new genre: "comedy horror: or comedy so bad you'll think it was a horror movie".

And the next time after that.

Originally Posted by Kroms

Tales is excellent, but some of the puzzles were a little too far removed from the story (the most obvious "I don't understand how this relates to the plot at all" bit being Nipperkin's). That, unfortunately, degrades it a bit, making my choice Sam and Max: Season Two (which also had the problem, but did have the excellent Chariots of the Dogs, as well as the greatest epilogue in any game ever made, ever).

You missed the point, where people don't walk around appending "Maybe, in my opinion, though I may be wrong and it's just my personal opinion" to everything they say. Not only does it make the person sound like they have no confidence in themselves or what they're saying. Nobody always puts the syntactical equivalent of giant neon signs in their sentences to declare "THIS IS A PERSONAL OPINION, PLEASE DO NOT BE OFFENDED", because most people have the ability to tell the difference.

I have beat it. I'm just saying it's ridiculously hard. Now it's four years later and I'm playing it again, and now I'm stuck.

Except it's supposed to be a little hard. Generally, if you're breezing through a game, it's an interactive storybook rather than a game. Disney has a really extensive line of those.

Clearly, based on what I said, this is the only logical conclusion. I totally agree with you.

[...]

I prefer CMI over LCR; empirically, I must prefer Phantom Menace over Citizen Kane. That's so ingenious it flirts with retarded. Or vice versa. Whicever applies.

I don't think empirically means what you think it means. Something along the lines of "ergo" would probably go better in there. Whatever the case:

First of all, the statement wasn't an answer to you, but to Chyron8472. And to keep from the same confusion arising with Chyron, I'd like to mention that the statement is due to the fact that the TECHNOLOGY used is given higher credence than actual design. For example, Citizen Kane and Wizard of Oz were made in the same year, and yet few film historians will say that Wizard of Oz is better than Citizen Kane simply because it has color. It is the same way with games and their design: if Curse does nothing new but add the new things that are in most games of the time, there are no risks being taken. And if non-interactive movie portions, which make up all of 15 minutes of time in total, are the big innovation of Curse...I'm not exactly impressed.

This sums-up your attitude. I think you know it's a great game, can't think of a halfway usable argument and then just drunkenly stumble across any excuses you can find. You've come across as the "I hate that Ron Gilbert was not involved in this" type. Which is why I will not bother arguing with you anymore.

I don't get this idea. Are my expressed opinions considered a sham to...well, certainly not to make people like me, so that's not going to work. Where's the benefit there? Perhaps you think I derive pleasure have having opinions different than others, and I consistently reprogram myself to fight against majority opinion. That I know that what I emphatically express is wrong and stupid, but I continue to proclaim the opposite because...what, I get my jollies like that or something? Perhaps you see me as some form of persistent troll. Whatever mechanism you've devised to explain my mind as a farce or self-delusion isn't accurate, though. In any case, I really doubt the problem was any singular, important man that could have turned the tide of production to something amazing. No, it was simply the faults of creating Curse after years with the intention of pandering to people that are new to the franchise. Someone else possibly could have done the job better, but the thing is that Curse was doomed from the start to fail as a direct sequel.

Neither did CMI, but you're clearly stuck on that point. LCR was the game with the "lit match in a room of dynamite", which I don't need to tell you is a staple of Saturday Morning Cartoons. It's best not to get your arguments mixed.

The problem is that these are entirely disparate from the real issue. A cartoonish joke is completely different from cartoonish storytelling. CMI always plays it safe. CMI's characters are loud caricatures, the story is a weak and dramatically-deprived shell, and the atmosphere is far too bright to evoke any real sense of reality and drama.

It's about what Monkey Island atmosphere is supposed to be. Despite the bizarre craziness around you, you should be able to feel like you're on an important adventure the whole time. It's hard for me to do that in Tales when everything's hopping around to say "Hey! Hey you! Look at me I'm goofy!", and the villain is a hopeless buffoon.

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

I still say that the arguments against Curse are grasping at straws.

I really don't think things like the entire personalities of the characters, the atmosphere of the world, copied puzzles, and poor storytelling can be called "strings". I'd call them "major, game-breaking issues".

Call me a Monkey Island fanboy if you want. I'm immune to it here.

I'm pretty sure I haven't called anybody a Monkey island fanboy in this thread, so that designation's all on you, buddy.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Tales actually did a great job with this

Lemme see.
"I Stab You - Oh, hey you are human now", "UNHOLY THIS - I am undead now", "I plunge a sponge in a rift - I am a demon now!" is an extremely good explenation, unlike "I have been blown up by a cannonball made of pure voodoo, reincarnating as some evil demon being"?
I ain't quite seeing it.

The problem is that he goes from attack to disarmed in a moment, gives up, and sends Guybrush to the brink.

I suppose he hasn't learned, because in ToMI he stills goes forward with plan A (Voodoo Bomb, Monkeys) instead of taking care of Guybrush.
Once again I ask, why is ToMI allowed, and CMI crucified for this?

Maybe if we saw him actually sink at least a single ship, rather than get held back by one person manning 10 canons at once?

I am pretty sure before that there's an "Incoming.... aaaargh" and everyone flees while LeChuck blows up a cannon preceeding that.

The thing I don't understand, though, is that people are fine with civilian pirates...when they're in Curse.

And LCR apparently, so much you don't even mention them. There is a laundry pirate after all, and a spitting contest and who knows what else I cannot remember just now.

Suddenly, though, when Escape is filled with pirates that are not pirates by profession, and when things take a turn for the horribly absurd, and when the puzzles are poor rip-offs...NOW, with Escape, they're despised.

You said it yourself. It took a turn for the horribly absurd. Personally, I can't see that myself in CMI. The barbers for example still act deadly serious, even if that can bring a smile to the gamers face by their singing, Guybrush comments etc.

but when you go to execute it you realize you've kind of just set up a resort rather than a cool pirate location like a bar, or a forest, or underground, or a ghost ship.

Or a souvenir shop, a big party, a woodcutter's worship, a library...

When you're reading a series of books, you don't get to the end of one, just to start the next and have the big event of the last chapter get more or less ignored until the end, just to have the main antagonist reveal it was a trick.

Actually, I would totally not mind if I hated the ending of the previous book (and hate is no understatement for the ending of LCR). Rather have it somewhat ignore it that actually continuing on to it, ruining the entire series, don't you think. That's probably why ToMI didn't continue EMI's story but started fresh.
Also, I once again wonder why, here too, ToMI gets no flak for what you think are horrible, horrible flaws in CMI.

A cartoonish joke is completely different from cartoonish storytelling.

Hmmm... are you sure you're not confusing "storytelling" and "drawing style". Just because it's drawn the way it is doesn't automatically make the characters act as cartoons with a similar style.

CMI's characters are loud caricatures

And LCR's aren't? The cook, stan, wally, largo, the woodcutter, elaine, the cook of the mansion, I could probably go on. The fact a large portion of actors in CMI come from LCR and/or SMI should already tell much.

the atmosphere is far too bright to evoke any real sense of reality and drama.

Bright colorscemes and are completely unrelated to lack of drama. Think LOST for example, set on a tropical island for crying out loud.
I once again, like a broken record, ask why ToMI is forgiven for this, yet CMI crucified. ToMI isn't dark at all. Yet it contrains drama and a sense of realism. Oh, just like CMI. Even if it's all showered in a comedy sauce.
Or did you hate ToMI after all...?

It's hard for me to do that in Tales when everything's hopping around to say "Hey! Hey you! Look at me I'm goofy!", and the villain is a hopeless buffoon.

Oh, nevermind. It looks like you already answered my question and dislike ToMI too. Sucks to be you, since it looks unlikely the next MI won't be season 2 and pretty much like ToMI as a result...

[Jen Kollic]

I think the arguing in this thread can pretty much be summed up with "do you like the cartoony turn that the series took with Curse, y/n?" Unfortunately for the naysayers however, I'm pretty sure that the majority of fans would vote 'yes'. Curse managed to bring new fans into the series while also keeping at least SOME of the old fans happy, and that's quite an achievement. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's been playing the games since 1991 and still liked Curse, but then again that might be because when Curse came out, I was still young enough to sit back and enjoy the game rather than sit back stroking my beard while analysing the plot and metaphors and judging them against LCR.

Now, I'm sure the next question will make some folk go 'are you retarded?' but if I actually cared what Internet People thought of me, I wouldn't write slashfic. Why exactly is LCR lauded as "omg greatest adventure game EVAR!!!111one1"? Don't get me wrong, I love LCR, but it's certainly not the best adventure game I've ever played. I like Secret better. I like Curse better. I like Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis better. And having played through all of these games recently, that's still my opinion.

Maybe it's because I first played LCR on an Amiga 600, and had to change the bloody disk every time the screen changed, maybe it's because I didn't like how Guybrush had become King of the Douchebags, maybe it's because I was scared shitless of Zombie LeChuck when the game came out, but I just don't think LCR should be the benchmark against which all the other games in the series should be judged. (if anything, it should be Secret) And the ending. I definitely wasn't going "gee, I wonder what kind of clever explanation Ron Gilbert has for this situation!", I was going "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT MEANT TO BE?!" No closure, no explanation, it was just a mindfuck that was only partially covered by the cut back to Elaine hinting that there was a spell involved during the credits.

I read an article by Someone On The Internet (can't remember who or where) that theorised that the ending to LCR was basically Ron Gilbert trying to make sure that they'd never be able to continue the series without him. That might be an unfair accusation, but it's still plausible. And to be brutally honest, his claims that he had the series all mapped out always smacked of revisionism to me. Suuuuuure you did Ron, you're not just saying that because they have managed to continue it without you. I could be wrong of course, but at the same time I don't really care.

Anyway, back to the point I've completely digressed from: yes, LCR is a great game, but I've never thought it was the GREATEST ADVENTURE GAME EVAR. Maybe its story is more complex (and naturally more complexity = better than *eyeroll*) than Curse's, its villains were definitely scarier, the tone was darker, the puzzles were harder etc etc, but I still know which game I enjoyed better, and it wasn't LCR. And if that makes me an idiot who doesn't appreciate true adventure games then hey, at least I'm a happy idiot.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

I think the arguing in this thread can pretty much be summed up with "do you like the cartoony turn that the series took with Curse, y/n?" Unfortunately for the naysayers however, I'm pretty sure that the majority of fans would vote 'yes'. Curse managed to bring new fans into the series while also keeping at least SOME of the old fans happy, and that's quite an achievement. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's been playing the games since 1991 and still liked Curse, but then again that might be because when Curse came out, I was still young enough to sit back and enjoy the game rather than sit back stroking my beard while analysing the plot and metaphors and judging them against LCR.

yes.

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

Why exactly is LCR lauded as "omg greatest adventure game EVAR!!!111one1"? Don't get me wrong, I love LCR, but it's certainly not the best adventure game I've ever played. I like Secret better. I like Curse better. I like Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis better. And having played through all of these games recently, that's still my opinion.

I never played the Indiana Jones games, but yes.

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

I just don't think LCR should be the benchmark against which all the other games in the series should be judged. (if anything, it should be Secret) And the ending. I definitely wasn't going "gee, I wonder what kind of clever explanation Ron Gilbert has for this situation!", I was going "WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT MEANT TO BE?!" No closure, no explanation, it was just a mindfuck that was only partially covered by the cut back to Elaine hinting that there was a spell involved during the credits.

agreed.

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

I read an article by Someone On The Internet (can't remember who or where) that theorised that the ending to LCR was basically Ron Gilbert trying to make sure that they'd never be able to continue the series without him. That might be an unfair accusation, but it's still plausible. And to be brutally honest, his claims that he had the series all mapped out always smacked of revisionism to me. Suuuuuure you did Ron, you're not just saying that because they have managed to continue it without you. I could be wrong of course, but at the same time I don't really care.

More likely he was on Meth when he thought of the idea in the first place. That would make more sense, considering the whole ending of the game makes no sense at all.

Originally Posted by Jen Kollic

Anyway, back to the point I've completely digressed from: yes, LCR is a great game, but I've never thought it was the GREATEST ADVENTURE GAME EVAR. Maybe its story is more complex (and naturally more complexity = better than *eyeroll*) than Curse's, its villains were definitely scarier, the tone was darker, the puzzles were harder etc etc, but I still know which game I enjoyed better, and it wasn't LCR. And if that makes me an idiot who doesn't appreciate true adventure games then hey, at least I'm a happy idiot.

Why do people say that LCR was better cuz it was darker? I don't get that.

...why is it that the posts on this thread are getting looooonger and loooonger and....

It's like I'm reading an online news article.

[GuruGuru214]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Everything was funny and all, but it was less like meeting an old friend and more like meeting a nice person who also happened to be wearing a suit fashioned from your old friend's flesh. Very unsettling.

Actually, that sounds exactly like the sort of thing LeChuck would do.

[quote]I don't think it's any more sensible. It feels almost a bit too "neat" to me, but it's definitely a livable thing that LeChuck actually went out and KILLED SOMEBODY at least.[/quote

At least it works better than "oh, I had Ozzie kill off Marley, so now I owe him one."

The thing I don't understand, though, is that people are fine with civilian pirates...when they're in Curse. Suddenly, though, when Escape is filled with pirates that are not pirates by profession, and when things take a turn for the horribly absurd, and when the puzzles are poor rip-offs...NOW, with Escape, they're despised. I just think the idea of a chicken restaurant, "El Pollo Diablo", and a lemonade stand don't work. Also, I hated the kid's voice, so that might not have helped. The actual puzzles around him were actually the better ones, too, it was just kind of..why?

Well, you can blame Gary Coleman for the voice. And I think the reason that people accept the pirates in Curse but not in Escape is that even if they're more domesticated, they're still more authentic than most of what you see in Escape. Maybe some of it is the art style, but a lot of it is that everything in Escape has a more commercial feel to it. Particularly the law offices, the bank, and the three establishments on Jambalaya Island. Lawyers, banks, franchise coffee shops, theme restaurants, and micro groggeries not only fail to capture any sort of piratey feel whatsoever, they feel out of place in the games' time period, not to mention Stan trying to sell freaking timeshares. This is a series known for silly anachronisms in unexpected places, but those locations are so prominent and so out of place that the suspension of disbelief totally disintegrates. Maybe the inhabitants of Plunder don't really act very piratey, but at least you get the feeling that most of them have either been or tried to be pirates in the past, and none of them are very good at their other endeavors. And none of them are running a damn perfume stall.

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

More likely he was on Meth when he thought of the idea in the first place. That would make more sense, considering the whole ending of the game makes no sense at all.

Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids.

Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island was very dissapointing.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Bagge

Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids.

Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island was very dissapointing.

-.-

It's a STUPID ENDING. It's just one big "what the f*ck?!"... I mean, seriously. Ambiguity be damned. To leave the storyline hanging like that with NO explanation why the carnival was even necessary to the story... for 6 years the story had ended that way.

Hell no, it doesn't make sense. What do you mean "like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong?" The reason why I dislike it is because it makes no sense. There is no connection between the carnival/corridors and the rest of the story of MI2. LeChuck saying he's Guybrush's brother is nothing more than using a Star Wars reference as a lame plot twist (I love Empire Strikes Back, but that reference was eye-rolling.) You also realize that LeChuck basically wins. At least he's defeated at the end of EMI, even with EMI's other faults.



If anyone says that a better explanation than CMI's would have been that Guybrush really is a kid in a theme park, I will kill you with a rubber chicken and a 50 foot tall ball of twine. There's already a thread or 5 about that theory, and a large number of people, including myself, have said that it might have been okay if it was part of Ron's trilogy, but now that Monkey Island has been around for so long that many of us have grown up with it... making it so that even Guybrush knows it's fake would ruin the whole blasted thing.

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

-.-

It's a STUPID ENDING. It's just one big "what the f*ck?!"... I mean, seriously. Ambiguity be damned. To leave the storyline hanging like that with NO explanation why the carnival was even necessary to the story... for 6 years the story had ended that way.

The best endings to all works of fiction are the endings that force the reader/viewer/player to think. If Guybrush had simply defeated LeChuck at the end of MI2, married Elaine and found a valuable treasure called Big Whoop, how many people would still care about the story? How many people would still remember the ending, almost 20 years after the game came out? MI2 reinforced the Monkey Island franchises mysterious and secretive atmosphere, giving the players a sense that there were more going on in this world than they were told, which has fuelled discussions and debates about the game for many, many years, and I believe has been largely responsible for the loyal MI fanbase that still existed a decade after the last game was relased. The MI world is filled with secrets and mysteries, and CMI ended up almost dispelling that atmosphere.

Hell no, it doesn't make sense. There is no connection between the carnival/corridors and the rest of the story of MI2. LeChuck saying he's Guybrush's brother is nothing more than using a Star Wars reference as a lame plot twist (I love Empire Strikes Back, but that reference was eye-rolling.) You also realize that LeChuck basically wins. At least he's defeated at the end of EMI, even with EMI's other faults.

Hence the title: LeChuck's Revenge. Besides, not all good works of fiction has to end with the hero defeating the villain. Ever read Brave New World? The Trial? Very few of my favourite books ends with the protagonist simply defeating the antagonist and going on to live happily ever after. I'll leave that to big-budget Hollywood movies aiming to please as large audiences as possible.

If anyone says that a better explanation than CMI's would have been that Guybrush really is a kid in a theme park, I will kill them.

Wow.

There's already a thread or 5 about that, and a large number of people, including myself, have said that it might have been okay if it was part of Ron's trilogy, but now that Monkey Island has been around for so long that many of us have grown up with it... making it so that even Guybrush knows it's fake would ruin the whole blasted thing.

Although Guybrush being a kid in a theme park is an absolutely credible answer to what happens at the end of MI2, that is not the only possible alternative to LeChuck building a theme park on Monkey Island. There have been several well though-out and sound theories by fans over the years, that are much more interesting and exciting than CMI's "carneval cop-out".

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Bagge

The best endings to all works of fiction are the endings that force the reader/viewer/player to think.

And the worst are the ones that make the viewer/gamer go... WHAT THE FUCK?
Think Indiana Jones IV, LCR, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, Fahrenheit.
Do people remember their "endings" because they were good? No... because they are horrible ways to end something decent (well, excluding Indiana Jones here, the videogames are).
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.

How many people would still remember the ending, almost 20 years after the game came out?

True, a well-done ending would have been forgetten sooner. The only way we still talk about it, more than anything else of MI2 is because it's such a darn let-down that it is hard to forget.

MI2 reinforced the Monkey Island franchises mysterious and secretive atmosphere

There was one before MI2? I cannot seem to recall.
Actually, I cannot recall any of the sort in MI2 either, and the ending doesn't give me "mysterious and secretive" more than, well... WTF?

which has fuelled discussions and debates about the game for many, many years, and I believe has been largely responsible for the loyal MI fanbase that still existed a decade after the last game was relased.

Have to agree a bit here. For example, KOTOR2 wouldn't have been talked about still if the original wasn't horribly mutilated and defiled. Hmmm, does that ring a bell with MI2's ending?

There have been several well though-out and sound theories by fans over the years, that are much more interesting and exciting than CMI's "carneval cop-out".

Name some. Humour me.

[techie775]

LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.

I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.

[doodinthemood]

I don't think quality would be much of an issue to worry about with telltale. It seems that their work is a labour of love at times. When you see all the extras the sam and max sets came with, and the many little side jokes and things added into TOMI, it makes me think that this company would be far too proud to release a TOMI2 that didn't live up to the first.

One thing though... I don't like endings. I dunno why, I just like to think there's something more. Part of me felt a tad disappointed at the end of Rise of the Pirate God, right up until that very last clip. If they do do a TOMI2, I wouldn't want it to finish off the Monkey Island story. I would want it to leave that last little Monkey Island puzzle that will never be solved, as TOMI did.

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

And the worst are the ones that make the viewer/gamer go... WHAT THE FUCK?
Think Indiana Jones IV, LCR, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, Fahrenheit.
Do people remember their "endings" because they were good? No... because they are horrible ways to end something decent (well, excluding Indiana Jones here, the videogames are).
LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.

Only people who weren't paying attention to the details could have been completely blindsided by Guybrush and LeChuck emerging as kids in a theme park. Hints that the Monkey Island world was basically a theme park was dropped thoroughout both MI1 and MI2, and everything that happens after Guybrush falls into the corridors below Dinky Island (Disney Land?) is a set-up to the final revelation.

The ending is really no different than, say, the final revelation in The 6th Sense, which also comes as a shock at first, but makes sense when viewed in context.

True, a well-done ending would have been forgetten sooner. The only way we still talk about it, more than anything else of MI2 is because it's such a darn let-down that it is hard to forget.

The ending of MI2 being a huge let-down was never really a widely held opinion until a few years after CMI, when the post CMI fans discovered MI2 and felt cheated because the game didn't end comfortably and light-hearted. For me, the "darn let-down" was the way CMI handled MI2's ending.

There was one before MI2? I cannot seem to recall.

Remember the titular Secret of Monkey Island?

Actually, I cannot recall any of the sort in MI2 either, and the ending doesn't give me "mysterious and secretive" more than, well... WTF?

Yeah, you keep repeating that you were completely taken amiss by MI2's ending, and that it is "WTF" (not an adjective, by the way). For starters, I don't see the conflict between an ending being surprising and an ending being mysterious. Also, there is no correlation between an ending being surprising or mysterious and and ending being bad.

Have to agree a bit here. For example, KOTOR2 wouldn't have been talked about still if the original wasn't horribly mutilated and defiled. Hmmm, does that ring a bell with MI2's ending?

Hmm, horribly mutilated? Defiled? No, that does definately not ring a bell with MI2's ending. You might be mistaking your own dissapointment over the unconventional twist at the end of MI2 for an ending which is actually badly written.

Name some. Humour me.

Read the thread. I already did.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by techie775

I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.

Have tried the Restoration mod already?

Originally Posted by Bagge

Hints that the Monkey Island world was basically a theme park was dropped thoroughout both MI1 and MI2

Yeah, I must have failed to pay any attention playing, since I recall none of them at all until the end of MI2. So, again, humour me. Tell some.
Also, I wonder why why you think MI would be all "mysterious and deep" if the story itself made it out it was all a themepark attraction. PoTC doesn't refer to the attraction in any way either, does it?

The ending is really no different than, say, the final revelation in The 6th Sense, which also comes as a shock at first, but makes sense when viewed in context.

I looked in context, and... well... found none to be quite frankly. Except maybe Walt the dog, but that's only because it was stolen from PoTC's ride.

The ending of MI2 being a huge let-down was never really a widely held opinion until a few years after CMI, when the post CMI fans discovered MI2 and felt cheated because the game didn't end comfortably and light-hearted. For me, the "darn let-down" was the way CMI handled MI2's ending.

Well, I don't know about "widely held" but I already had it when experiencing it, and that was before CMI was released at all...

Remember the titular Secret of Monkey Island?

Nope, not like you do apparently. No dark deep plot full of mystery there.

For starters, I don't see the conflict between an ending being surprising and an ending being mysterious. Also, there is no correlation between an ending being surprising or mysterious and and ending being bad.

I didn't say "suprising". A surprising ending would be good. I said "WTF". A WTF ending would be bad.
I would be perfectly fine with an ending being not what I expect, but quality. But not when the ending suddenly totally opposes the good buildup, like yellowish AI thingies (Fahrenheit), a total absent of teammates and not resolving the plot (KOTOR2) or... saying it was all a theme-park, nullifying whatever happened at the plot (MI2). Sure, it's a little more original than 'it was just a dream', but in no regards better than that...

Read the thread. I already did.

I read the thread. I even checked all your posts just now you said this. And all I can see are 2 examples; one being Guybrush really is a modern kid (which would TOTALLY suck for MI3) and CMI's storyline. No other examples given.

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Yeah, I must have failed to pay any attention playing

Ok

, since I recall none of them at all until the end of MI2. So, again, humour me. Tell some.
Also, I wonder why why you think MI would be all "mysterious and deep" if the story itself made it out it was all a themepark attraction. PoTC doesn't refer to the attraction in any way either, does it?

I looked in context, and... well... found none to be quite frankly. Except maybe Walt the dog, but that's only because it was stolen from PoTC's ride.

Off the top of my head, in addition to the obvious Walt (Disney) the dog reference:

• T-shirt as a prize for finding the treasure
• T-shirt as a prize for defeating the sword master
• There is a vending machine at Stan's place
• "Staff Only"-door on Melee
• Wiener hut on Scabb Island
• The treehouses on Booty Island are nearly identical to the Swiss Family Treehouse in Disneyland
• Big Whoop turns out to be an E-ticket, a ticket that gives entrance to theme parks after hours
• Dinky Island = Disneyland
• Everything that happens after you meet LeChuck at the end of MI2 takes place in theme park maintainance tunnels

I didn't say "suprising". A surprising ending would be good. I said "WTF". A WTF ending would be bad.

WTF is still not an adjective, and I think the distinction between a surprising ending and a "WTF ending" is pretty vague, only distinct in your mind because you dislike how MI2 ends. WTF is a pretty common exclamation when you are surprised by something.

I would be perfectly fine with an ending being not what I expect, but quality. But not when the ending suddenly totally opposes the good buildup, like yellowish AI thingies (Fahrenheit), a total absent of teammates and not resolving the plot (KOTOR2) or... saying it was all a theme-park, nullifying whatever happened at the plot (MI2). Sure, it's a little more original than 'it was just a dream', but in no regards better than that...

"Better" is a subjective term. I think the worst possible solution to an interesting and surprising ending like MI2's, was to blow it all off and turn LeChuck into a buffoonish cartoon villain with a theme park. If you take a look around the old Scummbar.com or some of the old Monkey Island forums (or even around here) you'll find tons of interesting theories as to what happens at the end of the game, several of them preferable to CMI's solution.

I read the thread. I even checked all your posts just now you said this. And all I can see are 2 examples; one being Guybrush really is a modern kid (which would TOTALLY suck for MI3) and CMI's storyline. No other examples given.

Here you go.

[Chyron8472]

I get the feeling that this is all an "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" thing for you Bagge. Nothing personal, but you're not going to convince any of the rest of us that MI2 had a good ending, as it also seems that we can't convince you that it sucked and that CMI did the best it could to explain it.

edit: Nor will I ever understand why anyone could hate CMI as Rather Dashing does.

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

I get the feeling that this is all an "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" thing for you Bagge. Nothing personal, but you're not going to convince any of the rest of us that MI2 had a good ending, as it also seems that we can't convince you that it sucked and that CMI did the best it could to explain it.

That makes very little sense. How is my opinion on MI2 any more "in-one-ear-and-out-the-other" than yours or Hassad Hunters?

[OzzieMonkey]

Originally Posted by Bagge

Ok


Off the top of my head, in addition to the obvious Walt (Disney) the dog reference:

• T-shirt as a prize for finding the treasure
• T-shirt as a prize for defeating the sword master
• There is a vending machine at Stan's place
• "Staff Only"-door on Melee
• Wiener hut on Scabb Island
• The treehouses on Booty Island are nearly identical to the Swiss Family Treehouse in Disneyland
• Big Whoop turns out to be an E-ticket, a ticket that gives entrance to theme parks after hours
• Dinky Island = Disneyland
• Everything that happens after you meet LeChuck at the end of MI2 takes place in theme park maintainance tunnels

Here you go.

Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.


:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.

:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.

:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.

: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.