The Next Chapter of TMI???

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by OzzieMonkey

Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.


:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.

:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.

:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.

: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.

See, although I don't neccesarily agree with that theory, this is the sort of cool speculation and theories that MI2 inspires.

[OzzieMonkey]

Originally Posted by Bagge

Ok


Off the top of my head, in addition to the obvious Walt (Disney) the dog reference:

• T-shirt as a prize for finding the treasure
• T-shirt as a prize for defeating the sword master
• There is a vending machine at Stan's place
• "Staff Only"-door on Melee
• Wiener hut on Scabb Island
• The treehouses on Booty Island are nearly identical to the Swiss Family Treehouse in Disneyland
• Big Whoop turns out to be an E-ticket, a ticket that gives entrance to theme parks after hours
• Dinky Island = Disneyland
• Everything that happens after you meet LeChuck at the end of MI2 takes place in theme park maintainance tunnels

Here you go.

Ok, I've got some more info about the ending to MI2 from andygeers' video 'The OTHER Secret of Monkey Island' which gives interesting info about what Guybrush's past could be.


:The feather pen you can buy in the shop on booty island when looked at Guybrush says 'That looks just like the one from my parents wedding!' suggests that Guybrush's parents were married after he was born.

:The skeletons of Guybrush's 'parents' may not be Guybrush's blood relation at all. It just prooves that 'Dad' is Lechuck's father, otherwise Largo could be Guybrush's brother, too.

:In the torture chamber, you can ask Lechuck 'where do babies come from' and he will reply 'In your case, the orphanage.' This suggests that maybe Guybrush is an orphan.

: Now, the last idea is that everyone in the monkey island universe is trying to help Guybrush unlock the big secret that his parents were murdered, and that the Vooodoo Lady is like a sort of psyciatrist.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Bagge

WTF is a pretty common exclamation when you are surprised by something.

Usually in the negative sense. You don't say "What the f***, that's such an awesome surprse" (well, most don't).

Here you go.

Yeah, that's what I said before, you only got 2 theories posted, and one is CMI's. You mentioned many other theories. Just 1 is pretty poor.

Also @ OzzieMonkey: So, you're saying the entire story of MI is made up by a lunatic in a madhouse?
I certainly hope not, that sounds pretty stupid. Maybe you guys would think that an epic ending, but I would pretty much think if the story of MI would be ruined like that.
"Oh, everything you did. Didn't made a darn difference. It was all a story in someone's head. Forget epicness! Who cares about that now, right?"

[Bagge]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Yeah, that's what I said before, you only got 2 theories posted, and one is CMI's. You mentioned many other theories. Just 1 is pretty poor.

There's three of them, just count them. Do a quick search on Google or on these forums to find dozens more.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Lemme see.
"I Stab You - Oh, hey you are human now", "UNHOLY THIS - I am undead now", "I plunge a sponge in a rift - I am a demon now!" is an extremely good explenation, unlike "I have been blown up by a cannonball made of pure voodoo, reincarnating as some evil demon being"?
I ain't quite seeing it.

Someone was apparently sleepwalking through the entire thing. LeChuck turned human due to an improvised Voodoo spell. It was intended to kill or vanquish LeChuck, so the spell was already intended to do SOMETHING. But one or a few of Guybrush's improv ingredients didn't work quite as well as the real thing, and we went from killing LeChuck to making him mortal. Certainly a step back, but hardly inexplicable, especially considering Guybrush's history with improvised voodoo ingredients(the Largo doll, for instance, only working at a distance).

I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue the assertion that BEING MURDERED makes you DIE. It's sort of self-evident. When you are killed, you die. In a world filled with ghosts, you become a ghost when you die. Hell, Curse had LeChuck building a ghost army by killing people, so even if you dismiss the plots of every other game in the series(as you seem to), and thus consider Curse to be the only valid and intelligent entry in the series history, then Curse does explain that you DIE when you are KILLED, and when you die in the Monkey Island universe you become a ghost. That I had to type this makes my head hurt.

The sponge is a Voodoo Sponge. It absorbs Voodoo. It was placed at the nexus of all Voodoo. Absorbing lots of Voodoo makes you powerful. The magic was passive, just sitting there, waiting to be taken in the purest possible form.

On the other hand, being blown up by a voodoo-powered weapon that is intended to kill and destroy, rather than act as either passive storage or an active aid, it just seems silly. It wasn't planned, LeChuck came back because he bungled into it, like some incompetent moron stumbling toward success.

I suppose he hasn't learned, because in ToMI he stills goes forward with plan A (Voodoo Bomb, Monkeys) instead of taking care of Guybrush.
Once again I ask, why is ToMI allowed, and CMI crucified for this?

Certainly, subterfuge and evil plots are a good deal different than "throw him in a box downstairs". And when he DOES reveal himself, and he's now the active and known antagonist, he's smashing Guybrush around the ship, just like the classic confrontations of the first two games.

So, Curse is crucified for that because they're completely different situations.

I am pretty sure before that there's an "Incoming.... aaaargh" and everyone flees while LeChuck blows up a cannon preceeding that.

Right. No real damage done, and LeChuck continues sobbing and being, in general, harmless. I suppose you could consider "he broke my cannon" to being equivalent to real damage and loss of human life, but I just don't see the equity.

And LCR apparently, so much you don't even mention them. There is a laundry pirate after all, and a spitting contest and who knows what else I cannot remember just now.

Wait, so spitting contests is a civilian profession now? Do pirates not spit? I'm sorry, I don't see this thing as something that doesn't fit.

Mad Marty is somewhat similar, I suppose. But I can probably forgive the guy, considering his huge eyeglasses and inability to hear. I'm also pretty sure he's not actually a pirate, considering he doesn't accept bribes. It's kind of like accusing Stan of being a pirate due to the hat. They're just themed shopkeeps, probably dealing with mostly pirate clients.

You said it yourself. It took a turn for the horribly absurd. Personally, I can't see that myself in CMI. The barbers for example still act deadly serious, even if that can bring a smile to the gamers face by their singing, Guybrush comments etc.

A freaking theatre troupe. Banjo-dueling. The other two barbers are mostly fine, except they're barbers. And they sing. Possibly the Cabana Boy, though as an employee of the resort he's probably not actually a retired pirate. The owner of a chicken restaurant. The island has a freaking kid selling lemonade on it.

Or a souvenir shop, a big party, a woodcutter's worship, a library...

Okay, I can see you thinking that Mad Marty is meant to be a pirate, but the LIBRARY LADY?

I'm pretty sure that the rest of them are just those things, not "pirates that do those things and have those act as their overriding defining character trait".

Actually, I would totally not mind if I hated the ending of the previous book (and hate is no understatement for the ending of LCR). Rather have it somewhat ignore it that actually continuing on to it, ruining the entire series, don't you think. That's probably why ToMI didn't continue EMI's story but started fresh.
Also, I once again wonder why, here too, ToMI gets no flak for what you think are horrible, horrible flaws in CMI.

The problem with Escape's ending was that it ACTUALLY didn't make sense. Not your version of nonsensical, but the real definition of the word. In which an ending doesn't make sense because it goes back and contradicts established series facts. LeChuck's Revenge didn't do that. For example, the Marley Revelation would have worked...if the plot of the games hadn't shown that this was actually impossible. That's why that aspect so disliked. Also, Tales takes place a good number of years after Escape, rather than right afterwards. You can assume that the problems "fixed themselves" in the interim. Not so with Curse, and you really couldn't "just do that" with Curse because it had a BIG REVELATION at the end that REQUIRED further exposition, where Escape cleaned up nicely at the end(and so it's acceptable to move on from it).

Hmmm... are you sure you're not confusing "storytelling" and "drawing style". Just because it's drawn the way it is doesn't automatically make the characters act as cartoons with a similar style.

While the art style is indeed a problem, no that is not what I was talking about in the slightest. I could forgive the art if it wasn't for the change in the way the story was told. LeChuck was a bungling villain, rather than actually scary. Guybrush changed in a more subtle(and fairly forgivable) way. The world itself became "goofier". The first two games were often funny and even bizarre, but the overall strokes of the story was "serious", if a bit simple for the most part. LeChuck was evil, and willing to do terrible things, and rarely felt like a stupid villain(there is the odd exception, like the wedgie joke which I'm not particular fond of in LCR).

And LCR's aren't? The cook, stan, wally, largo, the woodcutter, elaine, the cook of the mansion, I could probably go on. The fact a large portion of actors in CMI come from LCR and/or SMI should already tell much.

You mean the way many characters from the Prequel Trilogy are taken from the Original Trilogy? We have Obi-Wan, Yoda, Darth Vader, the Emperor. Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts N' Bolts is pretty widely disliked. Why? Obviously there is no difference, because a good deal of the original cast is back around again. The new Matrix films. Batman and Robin.

Cast says squat, especially when the cast drastically change appearance, are given voices for the first time, and their mannerisms are altered beyond recognition by a new script.

More than that, none of them were goofy as a rule. The thing that puts Largo on the list, for example, was a gag, and one that only worked because he otherwise is so threatening and tough. He did not go "WELL I AM GOING TO STOP YOU NO--DARNIT MISSED WELL I GUESS I'LL LEAVE NOW." You had to actively repel him with wits. He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics(by needing to stop him through a three-stage puzzle) and the story(by having him beat up Guybrush at the start, for one).

Bright colorscemes and are completely unrelated to lack of drama. Think LOST for example, set on a tropical island for crying out loud.
I once again, like a broken record, ask why ToMI is forgiven for this, yet CMI crucified. ToMI isn't dark at all. Yet it contrains drama and a sense of realism. Oh, just like CMI. Even if it's all showered in a comedy sauce.
Or did you hate ToMI after all...?

You can't tell a serious story in Bikini Bottom, nor in the vistas of a Dinsey toon where the scenery itself dances and smiles at the viewer. Let's look at the closing scenes of Secret, Lechuck's Revenge, Curse, and Tales.

Secret of Monkey Island's ending takes place back at Melee, at night. You've just crawled out of Hell and now you're going back to the start of the story to finish the job. Note that Secret has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes.

LeChuck's Revenge has an ending that occurs within dark maintenance tunnels. We have skeletons, and a zombie chasing after us, trying to kill the hero with voodoo. Note that LeChuck's Revenge has brighter scenes, but when it's time to get serious, the color palette and scenery change.

Tales takes place on LeChuck's ship, with a giant stone tower rising from the deck. The scene is dark. LeChuck's attacks are downright brutal, sending Guybrush flying. He's TOYING with you, savoring every hit. You know he can kill Guybrush at any moment. He's scary and intimidating for the first time since LeChuck's Revenge, and I really enjoy it.

Curse's ending..takes place in a theme park. With Guybrush as a kid. "BUT IT'S OKAY IN LECHUCK'S REVENGE, HYPOCRITE" is the obvious response, so I have to clarify that yes, there is a rather large difference between them. On one hand, the theme park after LeChuck's Revenge is AFTER the dramatic scene. It wasn't an ending, but the climax, which requires vastly different storytelling. Rather than a surprise and a mystery, it was one of your final puzzles. And rather than being something original, it was something ripped out of the ending to MI2 to try and tangentially link it to one of the first two games, like tossing the exact same swordfighting puzzle into it. So basically, it was bright, it was not tense, it it was not a mystery, and did not work as a climax.

You cannot possibly tell me that setting and lighting have absolutely no affect on the ability to pull off a dramatic story.

Oh, nevermind. It looks like you already answered my question and dislike ToMI too. Sucks to be you, since it looks unlikely the next MI won't be season 2 and pretty much like ToMI as a result...

Ah, crap. That was actually me putting Tales instead of Curse. My error. I'm actually pretty cool with Tales, on the whole. Good stuff. Needs better puzzles(something Curse actually did fairly well), but the story and voice acting work really well and the cinematography/setting design all works really well. Basically, a good step up from Curse and Escape.

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Why do people say that LCR was better cuz it was darker? I don't get that.

The same reason Citizen Kane is on the top of the American Film Institute list, along with The Godfather, and Casablanca...while The Graduate, Forrest Gump, and City Lights are lower. It is the dramatic story that involves you, it is the dark story that makes you think. Now, I would never call LeChuck's Revenge "dark", but it is relative to "Gumdrops and Rainbow Land" Curse. And it has a twist at the end that presents a mystery. "What was that?" is the first response, and in trying to figure it out, you think about the two games more intently. You get more out of it. Okay, the "you" is misplaced here, but I hope you understand the "you" to be a general more general "people" label.

...why is it that the posts on this thread are getting looooonger and loooonger and....

It's like I'm reading an online news article.

I know, isn't it awesome?

Originally Posted by GuruGuru214

At least it works better than "oh, I had Ozzie kill off Marley, so now I owe him one."

Haha, I suppose so. Granted.

Well, you can blame Gary Coleman for the voice. And I think the reason that people accept the pirates in Curse but not in Escape is that even if they're more domesticated, they're still more authentic than most of what you see in Escape. Maybe some of it is the art style, but a lot of it is that everything in Escape has a more commercial feel to it. Particularly the law offices, the bank, and the three establishments on Jambalaya Island. Lawyers, banks, franchise coffee shops, theme restaurants, and micro groggeries not only fail to capture any sort of piratey feel whatsoever, they feel out of place in the games' time period, not to mention Stan trying to sell freaking timeshares. This is a series known for silly anachronisms in unexpected places, but those locations are so prominent and so out of place that the suspension of disbelief totally disintegrates. Maybe the inhabitants of Plunder don't really act very piratey, but at least you get the feeling that most of them have either been or tried to be pirates in the past, and none of them are very good at their other endeavors. And none of them are running a damn perfume stall.

I suppose I can see that. I disagree, certainly, but it's understandable. I mean, the(admittedly agreed-upon) theatre troupe, a kid selling lemonade, a resort complete with annoying Cabana Boy, and a chicken restaurant. Seems to me the seeds of overindulgence in the anachronisms thing were pretty solidly planted in Curse, and Escape is maybe a couple steps further along.

Originally Posted by techie775

LCR, KOTOR2 and Fahrenheit are liked DESPITE their endings, not due to their WTF endings.

I've lost track how many times I played KOTOR2 cause it's a good game. I hate the anticlimactic ending and start to lose interest when I get to the last planet though.

KOTOR II is a really poor example. They had development pulled out from under them. They PLANNED another ending(a really cool, dark, epically depressing ending), and it was taken from them when LucasArts decided they needed SOMETHING out for Christmas. Also, Fahrenheit had really wacked-up storytelling throughout. While out there, I don't see much wrong with

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

"Oh, everything you did. Didn't made a darn difference. It was all a story in someone's head. Forget epicness! Who cares about that now, right?"

"Everything you did?" That's ridiculous.

Here, since the value of your "work" means so much for you, I'm going to crush your heart:

You sat on your ass for however long it took to complete a video game. Nothing you "did" mattered to anyone real. You were occupying yourself with mass-produced entertainment. Your reward for solving a puzzle was the advancing of another part of the story, and moving on to the next puzzle. You don't make any difference to the disk, to the world. Everything waits on the disk, the advancement of time and changes in the world are only thanks to a save file on your computer and a series of programming checks. "Did he do X? Then do Y". And so on, through a series of similar things. But I assure you, the world exists in all forms on the disk. Puzzles complete, puzzles incomplete. It just chooses what one to show you based on progression.

Guess what?

You are playing through a story in someone's head. Well, multiple people, who then put the story into code on commission. Sorry you can't get what you want. I suggest you learn the difference between fiction and reality quickly, because the distinction is going to be invaluable in the future.

The way I see it, unlocking a surprising ending at the end of a game is a far greater reward than being given the same god-damn feel-good ending that Hollywood has been spoon-feeding a mass market that can't handle more than focus-group approved, generic slop.

[GuruGuru214]

You know, there's a couple things bugging me about LeChuck in Tales after reading these arguments. If Guybrush turned LeChuck human by stabbing him, why wasn't LeChuck dead from being human and having a sword stuck in him? And if the sponge is a powerful voodoo object that sucks the voodoo out of anything it comes into contact with, how did LeChuck absorb the voodoo without it being pulled back out of him?

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by GuruGuru214

You know, there's a couple things bugging me about LeChuck in Tales after reading these arguments. If Guybrush turned LeChuck human by stabbing him, why wasn't LeChuck dead from being human and having a sword stuck in him? And if the sponge is a powerful voodoo object that sucks the voodoo out of anything it comes into contact with, how did LeChuck absorb the voodoo without it being pulled back out of him?

Monkey Island Voodoo has never been particularly well-explained. The first one is a bit harder to explain, other than "He was still changing form when the sword was pulled out" or some cop-out answer like that.

But the sponge seems a bit easier. For one thing, the sponge was pretty much filled to the brim. It didn't continue to grow, filling the entirety of the crossroads. It had a limit, and it hit that. When you squeeze one end of the sponge and take out a little pressure, it's going to equalize from the side that's constantly pumping out voodoo power rather than the side that just had some pulled out. Also, LeChuck's been planning this particular instance for awhile, and he apparently has been hoarding Voodoo magic for ages. He probably knows a thing or to about obtaining and retaining Voodoo.

[GuruGuru214]

I'm still seeing a few holes in that explanation. First, the physical size of the sponge isn't related to the amount of voodoo it's holding. It didn't grow when it absorbed Guybrush's pox, and it grew before absorbing the rest of the pox, not the other way around. Certain voodoo spells affect both its physical size and voodoo capacity, but other than that, the sponge's size is fixed. And second, isn't it mentioned more than once that the mature sponge has an "infinite capacity" for voodoo? You could argue that they don't know for certain that it has no limit, as nobody expected it to be exposed to a voodoo source as large as the Crossroads, but now we're just speculating.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by GuruGuru214

I'm still seeing a few holes in that explanation. First, the physical size of the sponge isn't related to the amount of voodoo it's holding. It didn't grow when it absorbed Guybrush's pox, and it grew before absorbing the rest of the pox, not the other way around. Certain voodoo spells affect both its physical size and voodoo capacity, but other than that, the sponge's size is fixed. And second, isn't it mentioned more than once that the sponge has an "infinite capacity" for voodoo? You could argue that they don't know for certain that it has no limit, as nobody expected it to be exposed to a voodoo source as large as the Crossroads, but now we're just speculating.

Ah, dammit. I suppose your thinking at what is 2 in the morning for me is a good deal better than mine is. But you're right, on all counts. The size relates more to the "Capacity" than anything.

Still, it obviously stops sucking up voodoo at some point. After all, all the Voodoo of the Crossroads isn't constantly flowing out while the sponge is in the rift. Why?

I think the most easiest explanation is that the sponge IN THEORY can soak up infinite voodoo, but its size correlates to its "appetite", and it can only "eat" so much at once/at a certain size.

Of course, we're all kind of pulling at strings to try and figure out something that may not have been adequately explained or thought out.

[GuruGuru214]

Eh, it's midnight here and I barely got any sleep last night, so my brain's pretty sluggish right now too. Add to that the fact that since yesterday, I've been constantly thinking about different designs to build a marshmallow gun out of PVC for a competition, and it's a wonder that I can discuss Monkey Island coherently right now.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Of course, we're all kind of pulling at strings to try and figure out something that may not have been adequately explained or thought out.

You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by GuruGuru214

Eh, it's midnight here and I barely got any sleep last night, so my brain's pretty sluggish right now too. Add to that the fact that since yesterday, I've been constantly thinking about different designs to build a marshmallow gun out of PVC for a competition, and it's a wonder that I can discuss Monkey Island coherently right now.

A worthwhile endeavor if I've ever heard one.

You're right, but at the same time, I feel like that statement can be applied to a large portion of the things we talk about on here. Besides, I'm no stranger to pulling at strings.

Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.

[GuruGuru214]

My friends and I originally wanted to try using Nerf guns (and as it turns out, Nerf's standard six-shooter, the Maverick, shoots marshmallows surprisingly well, though you have to pick ones fat enough to fit tightly in the chambers), but the person in charge of the rules of the marshmallow gun fight keeps changing the rules randomly, so it's looking like that won't be allowed.

But this is all neither here nor there. How about them monkeys?

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Oh sure, I could compare myself to you in this regard. But I'd rather not be pulling at strings so fervently and intently that I commonly get confused for a puppeteer.

Eh, the whole thing was just for fun, just to see if I could find evidence to support a claim that the entire Monkey Island series was a series of interconnected events in the Voodoo Lady's plot to do...erm...something... Plus I was sleep deprived and bored at the time.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Bagge

There's three of them, just count them. Do a quick search on Google or on these forums to find dozens more.

Originally Posted by Bagge

Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)

Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island (3 I guess?) was very dissapointing.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to argue the assertion that BEING MURDERED makes you DIE.

Yup, I know that. It's just kind of me wondering how killing GUYBRUSH made LECHUCK undead, as happens. Maybe I wasn't clear I was talking about LC all the time, making you miss that? Explain that...

On the other hand, being blown up by a voodoo-powered weapon that is intended to kill and destroy, rather than act as either passive storage or an active aid, it just seems silly.

It makes sense when you do not assume too much like you do. What says it's intended to kill and destroy? LeChuck wanted to marry Elaine, not outright kill her. And this voodoo ball would help in that. So it can be easily assumed it's not the killing device you make it out to be, more a device meant to... make Elaine his demon bride.
As such, wouldn't it make sense to transform him as it did?

Certainly, subterfuge and evil plots are a good deal different than "throw him in a box downstairs".

"Heya, Guybrush, you may be gathering ingredients for that spell of yours, go ahead... I wont stop you. Just like CMI I pay more attention to plan A. Of course this IS different, but I rather let Rather Dashing explain why because I don't grasp it myself either."

And when he DOES reveal himself, and he's now the active and known antagonist, he's smashing Guybrush around the ship, just like the classic confrontations of the first two games.

And there is no fighting around in CMI? I am sure I remember something about LC appearing, casting flames and time limits and stuff. Dunno about EMI, never finished that one...

So, Curse is crucified for that because they're completely different situations.

Aside from their similarity that's pretty close to complete equalness? Sure...

Right. No real damage done, and LeChuck continues sobbing and being, in general, harmless. I suppose you could consider "he broke my cannon" to being equivalent to real damage and loss of human life, but I just don't see the equity.

Oooooh... and how many did he kill in LCR? Lemme count on my 0 hands, becuase I am pretty sure the amount is a whooping 0. If you count evilness by human losses, your LCR comes out pretty bad compared to CMI, where plenty of people turned into skeletons by LeChuck's hand.
I never found him scary in LCR either to be honest, and I played it as a kid, but maybe I am just the exception.

But I can probably forgive the guy, considering his huge eyeglasses and inability to hear.

Yet you cannot forgive the CMI guys, for... well... arbitary reasons I suppose?

I'm also pretty sure he's not actually a pirate, considering he doesn't accept bribes.

Sorry, this rule doesn't count, since Kenny is crucified too even being "not an actual pirate". And the Cabana boy. And who knows who else.

Banjo-dueling.

Which IMO was brilliant.

And they sing.

Yeah. But that's more because they have VO now, because otherwise it probably wouldn't be possible (see previous MI's) unlike in a way as done in LCR. Fear the MI2:SE... It will have singing! From piratey parents!

The island has a freaking kid selling lemonade on it.

He sold lemonade? I would have never known if I hadn't switched glasses. Oh well...

Okay, I can see you thinking that Mad Marty is meant to be a pirate, but the LIBRARY LADY?

Well, you were opposing "non-piratey" thinks, no? Well, here is one. But if you mean pirates who pose as something else, then okay, this one doesn't hold...

Also, Tales takes place a good number of years after Escape, rather than right afterwards. You can assume that the problems "fixed themselves" in the interim. Not so with Curse, and you really couldn't "just do that" with Curse because it had a BIG REVELATION at the end that REQUIRED further exposition, where Escape cleaned up nicely at the end.

So you crucify CMI for ignoring what happened before, now say they had to and did, and ToMI is fine for that but CMI is not by definition of...
Wait... I got confused here for a moment...

LeChuck was a bungling villain, rather than actually scary.

As he was in the previous MI's if I recall. The few times he appeared in the first 2 MI's he was your generic foolish villain. CMI just gave him more screentime. Maybe that's your issue, their should have been less LeChuck?

the overall strokes of the story was "serious", if a bit simple for the most part.

Just as CMI. Save the damsel, defeat the villain. Hey; that sounds like SMI. The goofiness is build around it, as was the way with SMI and LCR.

and rarely felt like a stupid villain

Instead of killing you, I lock you in this UNESCAPABLE death-trap of which their is no escape and leave you all alone to escape and continue to do something else.
Could have been from Austin Powers. Or, well, LCR and CMI.
I think you give LeChuck too much credit. He always was the silly villain.

He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics(by needing to stop him through a three-stage puzzle) and the story(by having him beat up Guybrush at the start, for one).

He was a threat, and that was shown in the game mechanics (by needing to stop him through a several-stage puzzle in a rollercoaster ride) and the story (by having him shoot at Guybrush with a cannon at the start, for one).
Even *trying* to directly kill Guybrush is more threatning and villanous than what LeChuck did in both the previous games...

Curse's ending..takes place in a theme park.

Yet, the colour pallete is darker, and has become so throughout the game. Sunshine at Plunder, night at Blood, still night at the Park. If you were a fan of darker colour pallete's when things get more serious, why do you suddenly, for no reason whatsoever, exclude Curse?
As such...
"Note that Curse has a lot of brighter and goofier scenes, but when it comes time to get dramatic, the color palette changes."

And rather than being something original, it was something ripped out of the ending to MI2 to try and tangentially link it to one of the first two games, like tossing the exact same swordfighting puzzle into it.

So, to get this straight, CMI is damned because it ignores the previous 2 games, but OH MY... it tries to include things of the previous 2 games. That sucks SO much. It should not have included swordfighting or continuation from the MI2 ending, you know, even though I complain they didn't.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess?
Please, make up your mind.

So basically, it was bright

I recall no overt brightness during the final puzzle, but that may be just me.

I'm actually pretty cool with Tales, on the whole.

Okay. In that case, I revert back to my original question. Why is CMI crucified and ToMI "good stuff" if ToMI definitely proceeds along the line CMI set out. From "brightness" to the piratey theme. And the voices.

KOTOR II is a really poor example.

No, it's not. It's the perfect example of how a weak ending on a very good game (like LCR) allows for speculation for years to come.

You are playing through a story in someone's head. Well, multiple people, who then put the story into code on commission. Sorry you can't get what you want. I suggest you learn the difference between fiction and reality quickly, because the distinction is going to be invaluable in the future.

Odd argument from someone who claims storyline and deepness are everything, but I'll go along for now.
You (say you) like a good story, deep, dark, and stuff. Then would you prefer it if that ended with a sloppy weak ending nullifying everything. Take KOTOR (since you know it) would the ending be better if on the Star Forge Malak said "now witness the power of the Star Forge", a cutscene ran where you died, and the ending was a pre-determined 'doomed galaxy, whatever you did was pointless'... credits?
That would be bad storytelling. I don't need a happy ending, but atleast a resolution to the story, so everything that happens in the story isn't completely nullified. I wouldn't mind reading a book if the story ended with the hero getting killed or something similar, a dark ending where stuff went completely bad (See: Each ending of the series "24"). 24 Season 1 had a good ending, even if the hero found his wife dead in it. If it would have ended with a beeper going off, he wakes up, and all 24 hours where just a dream, then yes... I call a piss-poor ending.

The way I see it, unlocking a surprising ending at the end of a game is a far greater reward than being given the same god-damn feel-good ending that Hollywood has been spoon-feeding a mass market that can't handle more than focus-group approved, generic slop.

Don't say I disagree. For starters, I wasn't particular happy with ToMI's ending either, short, happy, etc.
A surprising ending, like he actually being stuck at the crossroads as some suggested, I would have preffered more.

[Bagge]

Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)

Personally I think the ambiguity makes it one of the best videogame endings ever made, and CMI's explanation that LeChuck actually built and managed a theme park on Monkey Island (3 I guess?) was very dissapointing.

Congratulations, you found them

[Astro Gnocci]

Go Dashing, go !

No matter where's anyone's preference , and while i'm far from being as harsh on Curse as Rather Dashing, I can't understand why so many people don't seem to get the fact that many of what caused Escape to basically suck indeed started in Curse. Up until Tales, Curse WAS more or less "the begining of the end".
I'm not talking so much about the actual story, though it did have some flaws, but more about, well, the general atmosphere and tone. I don't care about the cartoony graphics, but i wholly agree with dashing's points on the cartoony story.

LeChuck just can't possibly be taken seriously (he dies because of dropping his own voodoo cannonball... Heck, he even dies TWICE in the game!) and with him all sense of a real threat is gone. I do think he remains a cool character, but he's definitely not the the "real" LeChuck anymore.

And concerning the "more piratey feel" thing, this never meant EVERYONE has to be a real hardcore pirate !
Of course Revenge had that laundry guy and wally, secret had the shopkeeper and the circus brothers, stan's NEVER been a pirate by any means, and so on... Just because it's a pirate setting doesn't mean everyone's got to be a pirate, quite the contrary actually. You need those background characters, they add depht, realism or whatever to the setting.
The difference is that, in secret for instance, you had those "normal" blokes, AND some more serious pirates (the SCUMM Bar patrons, the guys wandreing the street...). Sure they've never been that threatening or serious, since it's always been about fun, but still, they had that "actual pirate" vibe.
Now starting in Curse, suddenly everyone is a pirate, and at the same time no one is a pirate. Retired pirate turned barber, pirate cook, pirate shakespearian actor... Everyone basically claims to be a pirate while definitely not BEING one. This got worse in Escape, and even to some extent in tales (pirate glassblower ??).

Basically, the goofyness which, sure, had always been part of the monkey island, became much more central in curse, and i can't see how anyone can deny it. It went from "let's have some fun with a pirate story" to "let's tell a story about funny pirates", and that's just not quite the same thing.

Now, as i said, i ain't nearly as harsh on Curse than Rather Dashing. Even if it all bugs me a little and if i do feel that some of that special thingie that made the first two games is gone, i still see these flaws as rather minor and they don't prevent me from enjoying the game. I think these "bad points" overall didn't go too far, and there's still SOME balance between serious and goofy, at least enough to retain a lot of the monkey island feel. But as i understand it, Dashing's point is not that Curse sucked, but that what made Escape suck started there. It's okay to prefer the Curse's atmopshere to the previous ones', but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.

Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses. That witch like old lady's betrayal was predictable right from the start but the actual betrayal didn't make any sense. I pretty much stopped paying attention to the story from then on and just considered the game a fun star wars hack and slash, so in the end the ending didn't bother me, since it all had stopped making sense way before that.
This is definitely not the same thing as Revenge's ending, which in itself might make no sense at all, but what came before did. Sure it is frustrating, and i understand why people could hate it, but it's definitely not due to actual storytelling flaw.
If anyone's studied music theory, they probably know than just like stories a lot of it revolves around tension and resolution. The easiest way to play around that in music is to play around with those chords called the I chord and the V chord : the later brings tension, and the former resolves it. An awful lot of music pieces, be it symphonies or stupid jingle tunes, will end with a V to I chord movement.
Well in one of the latest song we wrote with my band, we decided to end it on the V chord, and NOT resolve it to the I. We just stop there, and the song clearly doesn't sound finished. We set up tension and we chose not to resolve it. I personally think it's great (certainly not original, even though i can't think of any exemple right now it's definitely been done before, and it sure wouldn't work in any context), but i'm sure a lot of people are gonna hate that ending.
Well revenge's ending is exactly that. It doesn't only stops on the V chord, it switches to some totally unrelated key and leaves everything hanging there. This create an awful lot of tension and expectation, and it's definitely not a pleasing ending. It doesn't conclude anything, actually it's quite the opposite of a conslusion. And yes, it's frustrating, and just like my band's song, it's obvious some people are going to hate it. But no matter what you think of it, it's not lazyness or poor story telling. It's been said that the ending was Ron Gilbert's way of making sure the series couldn't continue without him. I don't care if that's true or not, but if it is, well he still did so in a very clever and thought out way. It MIGHT ruin the future of the series, but not the game itself.

Okay, that post is way too long already, so i guess i'll shut up now. I do enjoy reading this thread a great deal, even if i don't have so much to add. Reminds me, in a more focused way, of Sladdersomethin (can't remember his exact screen name) thread about the tone of monkey island. If anyone likes this thread and haven't already read that other one, i can only encourage them to check it out.

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Tales takes place on LeChuck's ship, with a giant stone tower rising from the deck. The scene is dark. LeChuck's attacks are downright brutal, sending Guybrush flying. He's TOYING with you, savoring every hit. You know he can kill Guybrush at any moment. He's scary and intimidating for the first time since LeChuck's Revenge, and I really enjoy it.

What really reminded me of LCR in Tales was the way LeChuck will randomly show up while you're looking for the Diet of the Senses ingredients in the physical world, mock you, and throw you back into the Crossroads. I don't know if he shows up in all the locations, but he certainly does in the Flotsam jungle and Club 41, and it really does give you the feeling that there's no escape from him.

[Hassat Hunter]

Originally Posted by Astro Gnocci

but this doesn't mean there HASN'T been a switch in tone, and i don't see the point in denying it.

Well, I certainly wont claim that is the case, but the 100% serious dark atmosphere LCR, 0% serious uber-goofy CMI point Rather Dashing seemed to make is a little too black & white.

Oh, and maybe i'm just dumb and didn't get it, but as far as i'm concerned it's not KOTOR II's ending that sucked, but the whole story. At least in the unifnished version that i played, i almost never even understood WHY i was fighting most of the games bosses.

Probably. If you want dark, deep and complex, you can't get better than KOTOR2 (well, there is Planescape: Torment). Even in it's unfinished state.
If you really need some explenation try the "Let's Play Kotor2" walkthrough (google it!). Not only does it excellently explain the story for those who didn't grasp it, it mentions what was cut, and is very funny to boot...

[Avistew]

Like it or dislike it, claiming that it doesn't make sense is absolutely wrong. There are several perfectly good theories floating around as to what happens at the end of MI2, ranging from Guybrush being a kid in a theme park (1) or Guybrush being trapped by LeChuck's magic to Big Whoop opening a portal to another world where Guybrush and LeChuck emerge as kids. (2)

Actually, the way I read it was:
- Guybrush is actually a kid (1)
- Guybrush is trapped by LeChuck's magic (2) (By the way, the way I see it that's Curse's explanation)
- Big Whoop is a portal to another world (3)

About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
It's a possibility.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by avistew

About the sponge thing. The sponge absorbed the pox of LeChuck. But if the voodoo lady is behind it all, her goal was proably that GB sucked the voodoo out of everyone so it could go back to LeChuck. As a result, it's quite possible she lied about the sponge. It's possible that the sponge works a bit differently. It absorbs the voodoo but then gives it back to the "owner", that is LeChuck in this particular case.
It's a possibility.

After reading this, I just had a thought that rather than LeChuck being the "owner" of the sponge, I think it likely that The Voodoo Lady, being in a jail cell adjacent to LeChuck's. had enough time to talk to him and... *ahem* "let slip" information to him about how to extract Voodoo from the sponge. She had time alone to talk to him, and even if he suspected that what she might say would be for her own plans, how could he pass up the chance to use it?