Boobs: an artistic discussion

[Jen Kollic]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

I decided to do some Morgan fanart, since I've barely contributed to this topic at all. And I used the opportunity to try a bit of a new style.

Sketch to Finished Product-

That looks great! I love Winslow's expression.

And I also agree that Thriller Guybrush needs to be an official smiley.

[Avistew]

She's, er, well endowed. I'm surprised they're looking at her behind, I'm sure even from where they're standing her breasts would be more obvious :P

[Irishmile]

its probably the sway.... who ever animated her gave her a pretty distinct walk in game.

[Secret Fawful]

Thanks for the nice comments, guys.

Originally Posted by avistew

She's, er, well endowed. I'm surprised they're looking at her behind, I'm sure even from where they're standing her breasts would be more obvious :P

What well-endowed is varies from character to character. For instance I'm working on fanart of Elaine right now, and even though she's well endowed, her face and hair takes up more of the viewer's attention, and the picture is more serene. Morgan is very well built, and becomes the "butt" of jokes for it, but Elaine is much classier. Morgan is destined to become the Jessica Rabbit of the pirate world, sultry and sly, but for now she's very young and naive and has a lot to learn.

[Scrawffler]

Guybrush and Winslow's expressions made me laugh the second the picture appeared on the screen. Nice one!!

[Irishmile]

I just spent too much time to see if anyone made a gif of Morgan walking... to illustrate what I was talking about when I mentioned "her sway"

but it may be for the best I do not want to be responsible for melting the internets

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

What well-endowed is varies from character to character. For instance I'm working on fanart of Elaine right now, and even though she's well endowed, her face and hair takes up more of the viewer's attention, and the picture is more serene. Morgan is very well built, and becomes the "butt" of jokes for it, but Elaine is much classier. Morgan is destined to become the Jessica Rabbit of the pirate world, sultry and sly, but for now she's very young and naive and has a lot to learn.

But... Morgan doesn't even have big breasts to begin with >.>
She's got wide hips and big sizes, but she's got some kind of chest-flattening corset or something. The kind that gives you cleavage but from the side you're all flat, you know?

Anyways, I was just making a joke there I wouldn't mind seeing your Elaine piece when it's over.
I really didn't see Morgan as anything like Jessica Rabbit, though, I have to say. She's not trying to seduce anyone and she feels pretty tomboyish to me. She just happens to be a woman, that's all.

[Jen Kollic]

I definitely don't see Morgan as the Jessica Rabbit type either. I agree with Avistew, the corset emphasises her cleavage, but she doesn't seem to have large breasts.

[Secret Fawful]

I don't think she's like that now, but I think if her character were 20 years older, and more experienced, I think she would become more like that, especially if she was still a pirate hunter.

And yeah, she didn't originally have big breasts. Its just how I tend to draw female characters, but I keep meaning to practice NOT doing that. In fact, in this picture, it kind of screws up the clothing; if I was trying to exaggerate it cartoonishly I should have had it flatten her breasts and make them sort of balloon upwards. I should probably fix it, or just reduce the size next time. I'll remember that if I draw her again, so I appreciate the observation. It all helps me learn and develop my style.

Thanks!

[Avistew]

No problem. And it's a common feature to accentuate so I can see how it can be hard not to. I think breasts are hard to draw, not from personal experience but because it seems to often be about extremes when I see other people's drawing: either huge ones or completely flat.
I think it's a bit like you tend to see males drawn either all skinny or all muscular, but more rarely with a more reasonable amount of muscles that's not all over the place.
Especially when you're less experienced.

Any way, it can be a style too, the question is just whether it's intended or nor :P
What seems the weirdest in the drawing his her head being small and her neck long, although that's the case in the game too, you just accentuated it.
I think her shoulders are too broad. My general rule tends to be to draw males with broader shoulders than hips and females with broader hips than shoulders (androgynous people with both the same width). That seems especially true for Morgan due to her hips/thighs area being her main "feature", let's say.
However she is strong an athletic so I guess the muscular shapes too. I'd say you can have somewhat broad shoulders, but I'd make them just a bit more narrow.

The arm that goes behind her back also feels a bit weird. It seems to be in front of her torso (not her breast, the side of her torso) but should it be behind it? As in, shouldn't her side hide part of her arm rather than the other way around? (That's y gut feeling but I could be wrong).

Also, it makes you wonder exactly where and how is her hand. I think it might have looked better if you could see just a bit of it.

Her waist looks very good, as does the cleavage (just so you don't think I hate everything about your drawing xD I like a lot of things about it actually but since you said you wanted comments...)

[Secret Fawful]

I wasn't going to post Elaine until tomorrow, but I was told that a job I want to apply for might have a deadline soon. I can't waste anymore time on fanart for now, so I'm just going to post it. It's a bit sketchier without texturing, but not really noticeably so.

Again, sketch to final-



High-Res Image

Okay, I lied a bit, she's well-endowed too, but I think this time her face and hair are the most defining features.

Originally Posted by avistew

No problem. And it's a common feature to accentuate so I can see how it can be hard not to. I think breasts are hard to draw, not from personal experience but because it seems to often be about extremes when I see other people's drawing: either huge ones or completely flat. I think it's a bit like you tend to see males drawn either all skinny or all muscular, but more rarely with a more reasonable amount of muscles that's not all over the place. Especially when you're less experienced.

I think the harder thing about drawing breasts is the weight. Trying to remember that large breasts are held down by weight and that small ones aren't is hard to portray on paper, and I have a much harder time with that. Also keeping them proportionally correct and sitting how they normally would; very tough. As far as drawing more unique breasts that are in-between the extremes, I think a lot of webcomic artists tend to do this and do it very well, especially the artist for the webcomic Questionable Content.

Any way, it can be a style too, the question is just whether it's intended or not :P

In my case, it usually is, unless the character calls for something different.

I think her shoulders are too broad. My general rule tends to be to draw males with broader shoulders than hips and females with broader hips than shoulders (androgynous people with both the same width). That seems especially true for Morgan due to her hips/thighs area being her main "feature", let's say. However she is strong and athletic so I guess the muscular shapes too. I'd say you can have somewhat broad shoulders, but I'd make them just a bit more narrow.

Very good observation. This is a common mistake I make quite often, and one of my biggest foils as an artist. I constantly tend to draw the shoulders too broad, because I have a hard time sensing what is too slouched and what is too raised. Although in this case, it was because I made the upper half of her torso so wide. It's something I'll watch for in the future, and something I think I've managed to avoid in the fanart of Elaine.

The arm that goes behind her back also feels a bit weird. It seems to be in front of her torso (not her breast, the side of her torso) but should it be behind it? As in, shouldn't her side hide part of her arm rather than the other way around? (That's my gut feeling but I could be wrong).

It's not in front of it, but next to it, and as far as the arm being behind the back, that's due to the "sway" she does as she walks, as Irishmile described. However, I think I gave her a bit TOO MUCH sway, and as I look at it, and even tried to walk that way myself to test it, if she walked with her hip extended that far compared to the swing of her arms, she would instantly fall over. Because I instantly fell over.

Also, it makes you wonder exactly where and how is her hand. I think it might have looked better if you could see just a bit of it.

Yeah, I agree. The arm was a bad design decision. I probably should have outlined her fingers where she is holding her sword as well.

Her waist looks very good, as does the cleavage (just so you don't think I hate everything about your drawing xD I like a lot of things about it actually but since you said you wanted comments...)

Well, I admit if someone told me "That looks like crap! Never draw that again!" I would feel bad, but it would just make me try harder. I appreciate all critique. I post art partially to get constructive criticism, and if I don't, it actually disappoints me a bit. I'm glad you liked it.

EDIT: Just to note, I'm better at drawing well-endowed women than I am at drawing muscular men.

[Irishmile]

I think they are cool man

[Leak]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

You know, if you'd have asked me who drew this I'd have sworn it was a certain Phillip M Jackson (compare to this, for instance... )

np: Autechre - Perlence (Quaristice)

[Avistew]

Very nice drawing of Elaine. (Why do you sketches say "Mac"?)

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

I think the harder thing about drawing breasts is the weight. Trying to remember that large breasts are held down by weight and that small ones aren't is hard to portray on paper, and I have a much harder time with that.

I think you're doing fine. Some people draw them much too round or pointing in front of them or something and it can look pretty weird. While you remember that the nipple is lower than the middle and to the outside, not to the front, so they do look rather natural, if pretty big.
For Elaine, the only thing I'd add is to remember the skin of the breast goes under the arm. what I mean is, on her right breast (right for us), the line almost goes up to where her arm starts, I think it would look more natural for it to be lower than that, or point towards her back a bit rather than towards her neck.

Here, to show you what I mean:


Other than that, and that's going to sound bad, just remember breasts are sacks of fat. Think water balloon. It's filled with liquid, pretty much (behaves like it at least). So when the breasts are a smaller size, movement is limited because there isn't much skin, it's tightly contained if you will. When they get bigger, though, they have more room for movement so they're going to behave more liquidy.
For instance, if a woman is on her back, her breasts will spread and flatten. So less breast on top of the torso (and more importantly not seeming to point up in any way, unless you're drying to draw fake breasts such as implants), more on the sides (but remember the clothes will limit movement too.) If the breasts are rather small they might just seem to vanish, if they're huge they'll pretty much go completely to the sides.
When standing, it's kind of the same principle starting at a certain size. They're going to be weighed down as you said (more or less depending on their clothes, think sports bra vs no bra for instance) but they'll also tend to go to the sides, away from each other (there again, more or less depending on the clothes).

But you probably know all of that already >.>

In the Elaine drawing, apart from the earlier modification I mentioned, I would probably draw the left (our left) nipple a bit lower (not by a lot).

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

However, I think I gave her a bit TOO MUCH sway, and as I look at it, and even tried to walk that way myself to test it, if she walked with her hip extended that far compared to the swing of her arms, she would instantly fall over. Because I instantly fell over.

That's possible, although remember she's a woman and you're not. Because of wider hips, the center of gravity is placed differently: men having narrower hips, their feet are closer together, are the closer the feet, the less balance you get (try swaying with your feet glued together, you'll see :P). So women can sway more than men without falling (women with broad hips at least).


I notice that in the two drawings you posted, there are 4 people altogether and only one visible hand. Now, hands are tricky but if you never draw them it can look like you're avoiding that on purpose, making sure they're right out of the drawing and such (which might be what you're doing).
Plus, they can be really useful. Think hand on hips, crossed arms, scratching a head, etc. Not showing hands limits what the character can do since it also limits their arm movements.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Leak

You know, if you'd have asked me who drew this I'd have sworn it was a certain Phillip M Jackson (compare to this, for instance... )

np: Autechre - Perlence (Quaristice)

Good thing I'm not the only one who spotted that.

That style reminds me of Jollyjack too much, it's uncanny.

[Joop]

Originally Posted by avistew

Very nice drawing of Elaine. (Why do you sketches say "Mac"?)



I think you're doing fine. Some people draw them much too round or pointing in front of them or something and it can look pretty weird. While you remember that the nipple is lower than the middle and to the outside, not to the front, so they do look rather natural, if pretty big.
For Elaine, the only thing I'd add is to remember the skin of the breast goes under the arm. what I mean is, on her right breast (right for us), the line almost goes up to where her arm starts, I think it would look more natural for it to be lower than that, or point towards her back a bit rather than towards her neck.

Here, to show you what I mean:


Other than that, and that's going to sound bad, just remember breasts are sacks of fat. Think water balloon. It's filled with liquid, pretty much (behaves like it at least). So when the breasts are a smaller size, movement is limited because there isn't much skin, it's tightly contained if you will. When they get bigger, though, they have more room for movement so they're going to behave more liquidy.
For instance, if a woman is on her back, her breasts will spread and flatten. So less breast on top of the torso (and more importantly not seeming to point up in any way, unless you're drying to draw fake breasts such as implants), more on the sides (but remember the clothes will limit movement too.) If the breasts are rather small they might just seem to vanish, if they're huge they'll pretty much go completely to the sides.
When standing, it's kind of the same principle starting at a certain size. They're going to be weighed down as you said (more or less depending on their clothes, think sports bra vs no bra for instance) but they'll also tend to go to the sides, away from each other (there again, more or less depending on the clothes).

But you probably know all of that already >.>

In the Elaine drawing, apart from the earlier modification I mentioned, I would probably draw the left (our left) nipple a bit lower (not by a lot).



That's possible, although remember she's a woman and you're not. Because of wider hips, the center of gravity is placed differently: men having narrower hips, their feet are closer together, are the closer the feet, the less balance you get (try swaying with your feet glued together, you'll see :P). So women can sway more than men without falling (women with broad hips at least).


I notice that in the two drawings you posted, there are 4 people altogether and only one visible hand. Now, hands are tricky but if you never draw them it can look like you're avoiding that on purpose, making sure they're right out of the drawing and such (which might be what you're doing).
Plus, they can be really useful. Think hand on hips, crossed arms, scratching a head, etc. Not showing hands limits what the character can do since it also limits their arm movements.

Wow, this is the second best breast description I've ever read.
You seem to know quite a bit about them.
And good of you to notice the hand thing.
Hands are tough, but if they work, they pay... (What a strange sentence.)

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by avistew

Very nice drawing of Elaine. (Why do you sketches say "Mac"?)

My name. Micheal Allan Cross. The initials spell Mac. I was going to put "Drawn by Secret Fawful" again, but it didn't watermark the images well enough to suit me, so I used my initials instead.

I think you're doing fine. Some people draw them much too round or pointing in front of them or something and it can look pretty weird. While you remember that the nipple is lower than the middle and to the outside, not to the front, so they do look rather natural, if pretty big.
For Elaine, the only thing I'd add is to remember the skin of the breast goes under the arm. what I mean is, on her right breast (right for us), the line almost goes up to where her arm starts, I think it would look more natural for it to be lower than that, or point towards her back a bit rather than towards her neck.

Here, to show you what I mean:


Other than that, and that's going to sound bad, just remember breasts are sacks of fat. Think water balloon. It's filled with liquid, pretty much (behaves like it at least). So when the breasts are a smaller size, movement is limited because there isn't much skin, it's tightly contained if you will. When they get bigger, though, they have more room for movement so they're going to behave more liquidy.
For instance, if a woman is on her back, her breasts will spread and flatten. So less breast on top of the torso (and more importantly not seeming to point up in any way, unless you're drying to draw fake breasts such as implants), more on the sides (but remember the clothes will limit movement too.) If the breasts are rather small they might just seem to vanish, if they're huge they'll pretty much go completely to the sides.
When standing, it's kind of the same principle starting at a certain size. They're going to be weighed down as you said (more or less depending on their clothes, think sports bra vs no bra for instance) but they'll also tend to go to the sides, away from each other (there again, more or less depending on the clothes).

But you probably know all of that already >.>

I didn't actually. I've always just drawn breasts how I see them in real life or how I've seen them drawn, I've never known WHY they do what they do. I know some basic principles like weight, but only BASIC principles. Thanks! I agree, you know quite a lot.

In the Elaine drawing, apart from the earlier modification I mentioned, I would probably draw the left (our left) nipple a bit lower (not by a lot).

Okay.

That's possible, although remember she's a woman and you're not. Because of wider hips, the center of gravity is placed differently: men having narrower hips, their feet are closer together, are the closer the feet, the less balance you get (try swaying with your feet glued together, you'll see :P). So women can sway more than men without falling (women with broad hips at least).

Oh, but doesn't it hurt to walk with THAT much sway?

I notice that in the two drawings you posted, there are 4 people altogether and only one visible hand. Now, hands are tricky but if you never draw them it can look like you're avoiding that on purpose, making sure they're right out of the drawing and such (which might be what you're doing).
Plus, they can be really useful. Think hand on hips, crossed arms, scratching a head, etc. Not showing hands limits what the character can do since it also limits their arm movements.

I wasn't avoiding them, I can post a drawing where I've drawn hands if you like.

Originally Posted by Falanca

Good thing I'm not the only one who spotted that.

That style reminds me of Jollyjack too much, it's uncanny.

Good eye. I draw a lot of inspiration from Jollyjack, but I'm not NEARLY as good as he is nor is my style so clean. We tend to draw women in a very similar way, though. Also, while I might draw well-endowed women, if I drew women nearly as well-endowed as he does (Example) I would probably have a long lynch mob at my door. Another difference between me and him; I don't draw nudes or erotic art. Another artist I tend to draw a lot of inspiration from is Bruce Timm(I have always tended to look at how he draws women then draw them similarly but more well endowed), as well as Utility Pole Spirit, Edward Gorey, the art style in the comic strip Blondie, Herge, Antonio Prohias, Brett Helquist, Steve Purcell, Bill Tiller, and various anime and manga artists.

About 70% of the artists listed affect how I draw male characters, and about 30% of them affect how I draw female characters. Basically, if I don't study great styles, I'll never improve my own.

Originally Posted by Irishmile

I think they are cool man

Thanks!

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

Oh, but doesn't it hurt to walk with THAT much sway?

Mh, it's probably not very comfortable. I can't say I've tried

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

I wasn't avoiding them, I can post a drawing where I've drawn hands if you like.

My point was more that
a) it makes it look like you're avoiding to draw them (probably because a lot of people do)
b) hands can be pretty expressive so it feels (to me) like a shame to have them off-screen.

I don't need proof of anything, but you're welcome to post more drawings of course.

[Irishmile]

I hate drawing hands..... I also hate drawing animals.. just saying

[Secret Fawful]

Originally Posted by avistew

My point was more that
a) it makes it look like you're avoiding to draw them (probably because a lot of people do)
b) hands can be pretty expressive so it feels (to me) like a shame to have them off-screen.

I don't need proof of anything, but you're welcome to post more drawings of course.

I dunno, I get too much great critique here so far, and hardly anywhere else will people stop and analyze art like that where I've been, so I'll be hard-pressed not to post more. In a way, the fact that everyone is pointing things out like this is a sign that I'm doing great.

EDIT: @Irishmile: I love drawing animals. In fact I draw more anthropomorphic characters than human, and the first things I drew were animals.