Did Curse destroy Monkey Island?

[Ash735]

Clearly there are a few people here that view Curse as the actual down point of the series, really laying into it, saying that the series would be better off dead than to have the Curse/Escape/Tales stories. Now, strong views, could be because of how they perceive the story or it could be something to do with the lack of Ron Gilbert being the main series runner once MI2 ended, but here's a coin flip thread, for anything that was done/explained in Curse, I'm going to take a look at why it was BAD and why it was GOOD. So let's get started:

THE BIG ONE: It was all a Dream/Curse??
BAD: In Monkey Island 1 and 2 we have many modern day references, as Monkey Island 2 progresses further into weirdness at the end we learn that LeChuck and Guybrush are brothers and are really kids at some amusement park, we're lead to believe that the series was actually in the head of a child with an over active imagination, as the credits roll we see Chuckie's eyes glow and somewhat resemble LeChuck facial features, but hey, this is just a cheeky nod to the gamer right? If we believe this route, then there would never be a Monkey Island 3, the idea is out, why would gamers want to play a game storyline they know is just the imagination of some kid, any threatening things in such story wouldn't matter anymore (which is odd seeing as Guybrush can Die in both Monkey Island 1 and 2). There were loads of book titles in the library that mention why Trilogies suck, etc so even though the idea was mentioned afterwards, Monkey Island 2 WAS meant to be the final story, the shock ending was meant to show the gamer that this amazing world they've been in for so long was actually just the dreams of a little boy.

GOOD: But wait, Chuckie's face turns into LeChuck as Guybrush and his parents walk away from him, and let's talk about Big Whoop, in the story, we already know that Four Crewmen and even LeChuck himself have seen Big Whoop and how terrible it is, yet here, in this odd tunnel, the crate is smashed, there is nothing in this crate except for a single E-Ticket, somethings not right here. Then we start seeing things from Melee Island and even the street from Melee Island itself, this is all getting weirder by the minute. Then comes the moment when Guybrush finally rips apart LeChuck, but wait, he's our Brother, our Kid Brother? And this Janitor appears telling us to get out? Then we get our weird ending, with the sinister glance from LeChuck to the player letting us know something is not right. And of course during the end credits we flash back to the Monkey Island universe where Elaine is waiting for Guybrush and comments that she hopes LeChucks hasn't put some kind of Curse on him and this is what Curse and essentially the rest of the series has built upon, has the rest of a series continued on from a throw away joke at the end of MI2, or was Guybrush really cursed and everything from waking up in the tunnels fake?


-- Coming Soon, LeChuck is a Cartoon Villain? The Four Map Pieces Explanation? An Amusement Park?? Continuity Problems? --

[doodo!]

What I liked about Curse is that it has that fun/ cartoon appeal that Day of The Tentacle and Sam and Max Hit The Road have. The humor is just so much more wetter for me.

Which reminds me of Broken Sword 1 and 2, also great games with the same heart.

The puzzles were good, the cartoon animation lend itself beautifully to the puzzles and story. The atmospheres were beautifully painted backgrounds. To be honest the first two games give me a head ache some times because of the pixels.

The cartoon look reminds me of my youth/ child hood, Disney movies that I watched with my sister. The pixel look also reminds me of my youth, Fate of Atlantis, Last Crusade, Loom, Wolf 3d (etc etc)

I personally feel that the third game was a breath of fresh air and one of the best games released in its day for it's comedy, puzzles, beautiful graphics.

That's what I think about CMI.

No, I did not read the OP, but I figured that I'd talk to you anyways. WHATS UP!?

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, the major problem CMI faced was LCR's ending, which IMO sucked. It wasn't clear wheter it was a curse (CMI) or really just his mind (but then, why the flaming eyes and elaine)?

Personally I think CMI did great in explaining that mess of an ending (I don't believe Ron ever planned a MI3), but some, like Rather Dashing definitely disagree.
That the "qualities of CMI" for some boil down just to it taking the interpretation of LCR's ending they personally dislike is unfortunate. But I guess I can relate somewhat in how now BioWare makes TOR completely throwing away the plot KOTOR2 hinted at for KOTOR3.

[SHODANFreeman]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

But I guess I can relate somewhat in how now BioWare makes TOR completely throwing away the plot KOTOR2 hinted at for KOTOR3.

I am not sure that TOR's existence means that KOTOR 3 couldn't happen, and even if they decided to never make a KOTOR 3, any storyline they had ever intended for KOTOR 3 could easily be worked into TOR, since it's a constantly evolving experience with hundreds and hundreds of quests.

[Hassat Hunter]

Since TOR is hundreds of years later, with the Exile and Revan dead and the True Sith invading the galaxy, probably not.

It's very likely the True Sith would have been defeated too, something TOR wouldn't allow for continuity and canon sake, altering the plot substantially by just being there...

A possible KOTOR3 would be the like the mythical "Ron Gilbert MI3".

[MonkeyMania]

CMI is my baby. Always preferred style of Monkey Island.

[SHODANFreeman]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Since TOR is hundreds of years later, with the Exile and Revan dead and the True Sith invading the galaxy, probably not.

It's very likely the True Sith would have been defeated too, something TOR wouldn't allow for continuity and canon sake, altering the plot substantially by just being there...

A possible KOTOR3 would be the like the mythical "Ron Gilbert MI3".

LOTRO has quests that happened hundreds of years before the story in-game. You just play as another character in the past for the duration of the quest. It's still a possibility.

[Tacobob]

Bleh. Curse is still the best MI game in my opinion. Awesome animation (Award winning even!) perfect voice casting, fun puzzles (No over reliance on maze puzzles like the first two MI games) and it's actually really funny.

[Planeforger]

Curse was a fun game, but definitely set a different tone for the series, both graphically and moodily-ily.

I've always disliked what they did to Guybrush (although ToMI changed my mind about that) and LeChuck (they turned him into an even more comical/foolish villain, rather than a fearsome-ish undead one), but on the plus side their voices were perfect.
The game itself was extremely well done - great music, locations, puzzles, etc - but I wouldn't call it the best Monkey Island game.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Planeforger

Curse was a fun game, but definitely set a different tone for the series, both graphically and moodily-ily.

I've always disliked what they did to Guybrush (although ToMI changed my mind about that) and LeChuck (they turned him into an even more comical/foolish villain, rather than a fearsome-ish undead one), but on the plus side their voices were perfect.
The game itself was extremely well done - great music, locations, puzzles, etc - but I wouldn't call it the best Monkey Island game.

This is more or less the way I see it, though I'm a bit harsher on the stylistic elements. I still don't like Bananahead Guybrush, or the overall change in his and Elaine's characterization. I also didn't like Curse's horribly unpiratey atmosphere, with Puerto Pollo being the very lowest point in the series' history, possibly tied with a certain old guy being related to a certain other character as revealed at the end of a certain other game.

[metroidreborn]

In my opinion, I think Curse was the best thing to happen to the series. I know many will hate me when I say this, but I think that I would've liked the story Curse went with over the one Ron was planning on doing. Don't get me wrong, Ron Gilbert is a great game designer and I love all his games and have a lot of respect for him, but there are certain plot points in Monkey Island that I didn't like that he was planning to do.

To start with, Ron said Big Whoop was never going to be elaborated on hence the name. Okay, the name suggests that it is nothing, but come on! The whole second game was about finding it and the Voodoo Lady suggested that it was the gateway to another world. I don't understand why Ron would put all that info in the game if it were meant to be no matter of importance at the end. Also, the whole dream thing would've been such a let down to me although Ron probably had more planned than just that.

Since Curse, we have gotten five solid (yes I love Escape and think it is a fantastic game) games as opposed to just three. We would not have gotten what I think is the best in the series Tales of Monkey Island or the great voice work of Dom, Earl, or Alexandra, all who have made these characters so much more alive and evolved. The answers to the secrets in the first two games I thought were answered perfectly in the next games and added more to the character back-stories. So basically, starting with Curse, this series has really evolved from a simple point and click potential trilogy series to a great and expanded series of mystery and great stories. Even Ron himself thought that Curse was a fantastic game and that is saying quite a bit since he was the creator of the series itself. I say Curse was the real turning point of this series, a turning point I loved and still do.

[plrichard]

I just think it's really hard to look at the flaming eyes and Elaine as "just a throw-away joke." I just feel like people who want to have developed theories for "it all being a dream" always want to over-analyze every little thing but just completely dismiss those two events as "throw-away jokes." Especially when people use "C'mon, Guybrush, that's how everyone talked back then!" as an actual point of emphasis that the game is a dream. That seems like a very convenient "I hear what I want to hear" kind of situation.

I'm not saying 100% that it wasn't a dream (although I am pretty against that theory), but I just hate it when people write off what Elaine said as something that shows no importance.

[Jenny]

Originally Posted by plrichard

I just feel like people who want to have developed theories for "it all being a dream" always want to over-analyze every little thing but just completely dismiss those two events as "throw-away jokes." Especially when people use "C'mon, Guybrush, that's how everyone talked back then!" as an actual point of emphasis that the game is a dream. That seems like a very convenient "I hear what I want to hear" kind of situation.

Agreed, I don't believe that it was going in the "dream" direction. You can't just write off that much foreshadowing and hints at the end of the game and assume that there wasn't more to the story. I think CMI explained it well. I have no real problem with Curse, except how they changed the characters and made them far more cartoonish (but I know that is just my own personal artistic preference).

But to say that Curse is what made the series, really disregards the first two games. And without the first two games, there would never be a Curse. The humor, the characters, everything was established in the first two games. I think Curse is a great game, I enjoyed playing it, and I thought the voice acting was superb! But the mood is completely different, it did change the series completely. Whether for better or worse is always going to be subjective. It took it in such a new direction, it really isn't even plausible to compare them any longer.

[Jen Kollic]

I love the first two games, and played them years before Curse came out. And I never had a problem with Curse, when it came out I loved it too. I don't remember going 'wah, this does not respect Ron Gilbert's vision!', but that's probably because I was busy enjoying the game. Yes, it's different from the first two but it was also similar to other Lucasarts adventures of the time, like Day of the Tentacle and Sam & Max Hit the Road, (toony graphics, voice acting) so I didn't find the different art styles and controls too jarring. So in short, in my opinion Curse did not destroy Monkey Island.

And to be fair on Escape, I replayed it recently after finally getting it to work on my laptop, and it's actually better than I remember, rating higher than all of the King's Quest games except for KQVI. But maybe that's due in part to Tales convincing me that yes, adventure games really do work in 3D. Maybe now I'll finally pick up the Sam & Max episodes...

[Steky]

I for one didn't like the ending of the second game. I remember being really disappointed with the ending after completing the game and it really spoiled it for me. The whole dream thing has been done to death and never done well. I think Curse did a great job on fixing this. I loved the hand drawn animation and art direction

[petethepanda]

Curse certainly isn't what Ron's original plan for 3 must have been, but it's still a great game, and a worthy successor. The only real downside is that it loses the creepy edge that the first two had, but it's funny, the music is great, the art is great. It's a great game.

The interactive abortion that was Escape is what killed the series (until its revival a few eps into Tales).

[plrichard]

Originally Posted by petethepanda

The interactive abortion that was Escape is what killed the series (until its revival a few eps into Tales).

Le sigh...

[SHODANFreeman]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

I also didn't like Curse's horribly unpiratey atmosphere, with Puerto Pollo being the very lowest point in the series' history

...Jambalaya?

[Secret Fawful]

I hate that damn theory that its just a little kid in a theme park. If that was truth I'd swear off the first two games for good. I mean I REALLY hate that damn theory. Monkey Island is just fine as games about pirates with voodoo magic and sorcery. I don't want it to suddenly end up being in present day with Guybrush at a theme park.

I like the ending of the second game. But I hate that theory.

[Epic Kiwi]

Originally Posted by plrichard

I'm not saying 100% that it wasn't a dream (although I am pretty against that theory), but I just hate it when people write off what Elaine said as something that shows no importance.

I like the "Guybrush was in a mental hospital this whole time and the Monkey Island games were his schizophrenic delusions" theory. Then again, that's my favorite theory for like, everything.