Theology

[Giant Tope]

hm... Well I was just asking a question out of curiosity. Honestly, I find myself to be more curious about why people believe things, though I can understand why some agnostic/atheist folk may be more vocal. When you're a minority, you tend to speak up about you believe otherwise you won't be heard. Especially if you're a minority that is demonized by a good majority. If you don't say anything, you'll just get swallowed up.

Some things said might seem harsh, but I've seen harsh words said from just about any point of view, and one harsh comment from one person may be the right thing to say to another.

[doodinthemood]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Why is that it seems the agnostics and atheists are the most vocal/confrontational/belittling/belligerent on this thread? It's like you think you have something to prove and are therefore compelled to try to get a rise out of people.

Fortunately, it hasn't been very successful, but my point still stands.



...Whatever happened to trying to have an intelligent and civil conversation?

Dunno who that was directed at, but I cannot see many posts aiming to get a rise out of people. Indeed, I rarely see said posts anywhere. I think it would just be because atheists disagree with you, that you end up perceiving them as belligerent. For an atheist, it would likely be the other way around.
There is also that religions are pretty established, so often don't need to do much shouting to get noticed or heard.

[Fishstick_Kitty]

Originally Posted by doodinthemood

Dunno who that was directed at, but I cannot see many posts aiming to get a rise out of people. Indeed, I rarely see said posts anywhere. I think it would just be because atheists disagree with you, that you end up perceiving them as belligerent. For an atheist, it would likely be the other way around.
There is also that religions are pretty established, so often don't need to do much shouting to get noticed or heard.

Is it safe for everyone to assume that you didn't find the Jewish Zombie post offensive and that you actually consider that copied/pasted remark to be a valid contribution to an intelligent, rational discussion?

[doodinthemood]

Hrrrm. I didn't find it offensive, no. It's not the most intelligent, but it does demonstrate the poster's view point (that christianity is absurd, and thus incorrect.)

[Lena_P]

I'd like to point out that it's possible to be offensive and demonstrate your point of view. I could tell my friend I don't think that dress suits her, or I could tell her it makes her look like a water buffalo. Technically, they both come to the same thing, but if she got pissed with me for the second comment I wouldn't blame her. I don't think Chryon's statement was very fair either, since it made it sound like he was judging all athesists and agnostics by Pale Man's behavior, and because it is also unfair to judge them as one group since they are quite different.

People, let's keep this civil, and by civil I mean do not belittle someone's beliefs. Just because you don't agree with someone doesn't means you can make fun of their way of thinking. If you have issue with their statements or beliefs, state you issues in a non-aggressive way that invites a non-aggressive response.

[Fishstick_Kitty]

I'm Christian and personally I found it very offensive.

I'm not the best Christian around as being a feisty redhead, learning to "turn the other cheek" is a big obstacle for me.

[doodinthemood]

@Lena, I'm not sure that makes total sense. If the belief is offensive, that's ok, but the reaction cannot be?

[Lena_P]

If you are offended that people believe in Christianity, that's your problem. People have the right to believe in what they believe. Just as the forums agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, Jews and Hindus have the right to believe what they like, so do the forum's Christians.

This is meant to be a discussion. No one has the right to tell any one else they're wrong for believing what they believe. No one has the right to make fun of someone's beliefs. No one has the right to attack any other forum user personally.

[Fishstick_Kitty]

I have one more belief I'd like to share...

I believe that the blackberry ice cream I made today is going to be heavenly

[SHODANFreeman]

I don't understand how posting something which accurately describes how I feel about what Christianity is could offend someone, but here's another quote that accurately reflects why I think it's silly to believe in the Christian idea of a god.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus

[Alcoremortis]

I'm Catholic and even I think that some of the stuff we Christians believe in is sort of ludicrous. But that's why it's called belief. It doesn't need to make sense as long as it's good enough for people (Flying Spaghetti Monster for example).

As for Epicurus, I personally love that quote. But, as far as philosophers go, I prefer Bentham. He's stuffed.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Lena_P

I'd like to point out that it's possible to be offensive and demonstrate your point of view. I could tell my friend I don't think that dress suits her, or I could tell her it makes her look like a water buffalo.

Everybody's got a water buffalo
Yours is fast but mine is slow
Oh, where do you get them I don't know
But everyone's got a water buffalo-oooooooooo
I took my buffalo to the store
Got his head stuck in the door
Spilled some lima beans on the floor
Oh everybody's got a water buffalo...

[Avistew]

I personally found Pale Man's post obviously provocative. It seemed to me it was meant to offend people who are Christians more than state his position on the subject. While I can't say I was personally offended, I wasn't impressed either.

I understand why that post would be shocking, but I see no reason to turn it into

Originally Posted by Chyron

Why is that it seems the agnostics and atheists are the most vocal/confrontational/belittling/belligerent on this thread? It's like you think you have something to prove and are therefore compelled to try to get a rise out of people.

Which I personally found confrontational, addressing agnostics and atheists as a whole ("you") and making a blanket statement (the agnostics and atheists).
I feel if you want to respond to Pale Man's post instead of ignoring him, then do so, but I really don't see why you should turn that into "the atheists and agnostics". It seems to me most people here, no matter what their beliefs are, have been keeping it civil.

[Chyron8472]

Point taken. I'm sorry.


On topic, for the record I don't believe that the Earth is only ~10,000 years old, nor do I believe that everything in the Bible is meant to be taken literally (eg. the Adam and Eve creation story.)

I do have specific beliefs on the subject, but with that being said, I also believe that God could have created the universe and everything in it in any manner that he wanted to. If he wanted to create the universe in 6 24-hour time periods, he could have. If he wanted create everything over the span of hundreds of billions of years (or more) then he could have. Either way, I would say the important thing is that he did.

For societies to literally get into wars and stuff over how he did it (or other similar doctrinal minutia) seems absurd to me.

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Either way, I would say the important thing is that he did.

Why's that? (in the most sincere way possible)

[Tor]

About the 6000 year old Earth thing; I've heard that the bible makes no such claim. The idea comes from an estimate made by an Irish bishop in the 17th century, which he based on his interpretation of the genealogical records in the bible.

I find it strange that some christians are so intent on unconditionally believing this claim. Were bishops hundreds of years ago infallible? Really?

[Alcoremortis]

I find it funny, especially because a lot of the Old Testament people lived like eight hundred years or something.

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Point taken. I'm sorry.

Thanks I was worried we'd end up in a big argument, and I know sometimes it's easier than going "okay let's shake ends" so I appreciate that.

Originally Posted by Giant Tope

Why's that? (in the most sincere way possible)

Because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation?

More seriously, from a theoretical point of view, I can see how the details might not matter. On the other hand, if God is all powerful and did create the universe, and we end up having an idea of how, it might be interesting to analyse. I mean, he could do it in any possible way, maybe he did it that way for a reason.

This being said, I don't think we can randomly come up with the way he did it, or say that because it's written that way it has to be that way even if there seems to be evidence against it. As Chyron said, it could be a metaphor. There is also the possibility that the Bible being written by men, they misinterpreted things. And finally, some things could have been lost in translation. So while I'd understand, once there is a reason to believe things happened a certain way, the idea of talking about why, I don't think it's worth killing each other because you don't agree about how you think things were done.

To give an example, we have reasons to believe Earth is spherical (or close to). So I understand saying that it's so all life is connected and there is no beginning and end, and so people are closer to one another, as opposed to the flat idea.
However I don't think it was worth torturing people over what shape they thought the Earth might be before we knew.

[Giant Tope]

Originally Posted by Avistew

Because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation?

I... what?

I wanted to hear what he believed in greater detail. I wanted to further the conversation.

Originally Posted by Alcoremortis

I find it funny, especially because a lot of the Old Testament people lived like eight hundred years or something.

This was always kinda weird to me.

[The Highway]

*insert apostle's creed here*

There ya go!