Did Curse destroy Monkey Island?

[KuroShiro]

Originally Posted by dthoupis

I did not say that ppl should hate it. In MI World I am sorry but yes Ron Gilberts' word is the gospel. period, because he is the original creator. As in Star Wars George Lucas word is the gospel and in Jurassic Park Steven Spielbergs' word is the gospel e.t.c. e.t.c. I specifically said that I meant no offence to anyone of the creators of Curse or Escape and I loved both games (curse more) although my favourite is MI2 Lechucks' revenge. The writer of a book or a series or something (original creator) is one whose opinion should not be taken light hearted. Prince of Persia movie they got the creator to put info in the story together and they made a hell of a movie. Tales got input from Ron Gilbert and they made a great job. Harry Potter movies are greatly overviewed by the writer e.t.c e.t.c. The original creators' word is the gospel no matter how harsh it sounds.
Demetris

I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree. BTW, Jurassic Park was based on books by Michael Crichton, and I doubt he agrees with every single thing Spielberg did with the franchise. But you didn't know that and hence call Spielberg's word gospel -- it's the same thing. It's true that ultimately the creator of a story should have final say over what happens to that story, but just look at the horrendous mess Lucas made out of the prequels. I'm not saying that Gilbert would have done the same thing, just that nobody is infallible.

If somebody enjoys something in a story not created by the original author, or which was outside of his/her intentions, then why attack them for it? I certainly enjoyed Knights of the Old Republic (game) a hell of a lot more than any of Lucas' personal visions of Star Wars after the originals.

[dthoupis]

I forgot to mention Michel Creaton yes. As well as Godfather films with Mario Puzzos' input e.t.c. I did not claim that Curse destroyed MI. On the contrary it reboosted it. I just mentioned things I did not like and perhaps not a gospel but the original creator input is very important to the storyline. I started playing the games from MI1 in EGA version. I think that older fans and more sentimentaly attached than newer fans with no offense to anyone.
Demetris

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by dthoupis

You really can't be serious can you? For years and years Ron Gilbert has been saying that probably the ONLY thing he did not like in Curse was the way LA handled the relationship between Elaine and Guybrush as he said that Elaine sees Guybrush as her annoying brother and not as a lover!!!

This makes no sense. In fact, the more I think about it, the more it infuriates me.

I've played SoMI a LOT of times and did it seem then like they had a brother-sister relationship then?

In a word: NO. -.-

Guybrush : Who would have known, or even cared, if
you'd let me drown?
Governor : I would have, Guybrush.
Guybrush : (walks away) Oh, Governor...
Governor : (comes closer) Oh, Threepwood...
Guybrush : (comes closer) Oh, Elaine!
Governor : (comes closer) Oh, Guybrush!
Guybrush : (comes closer) Love muffin!
Governor : (comes closer) Sugar boots!
Guybrush : (comes closer) Honey pumpkin!
Governor : (comes closer) Plunder bunny!
Guybrush : Kiss me!
Governor : (turns away) No! We mustn't!
Guybrush : What?
Governor : Not here, where everyone can see us.
Guybrush : Why, are you ashamed of me?
Governor : No, no, it's not that at all... It's just that many of these
pirates have made advances toward me. And to avoid hurting their
feelings, I've always told them that my father made me promise
never to fall in love with a pirate. If they see us together,
they'll know I was lying.

Guybrush : Okay then, let's go to your place.
Governor : Okay.
(take some steps) But finish your trials first. I don't want you to
be... ...preoccupied.
Guybrush : But...
Governor : (walks away)
Guybrush : I feel this sudden urge to complete the trials... ...quickly.

This is not a brother-sister relationship. I totally agree with DonCopal saying that that aspect of MI2 makes little sense, while CMI got the relationship back where it should have been.

If Ron Gilbert thinks that CMI messed up their relationship because they should have had a more sibling type of relationship, then he shouldn't have had them making sexual advances toward each other in the first game! I mean, seriously. It makes me mad how stupid it sounds to suggest that they didn't love each other as consenting adults.

[coolsome]

thats the weirdest brother and sister evar lol.

even in MI 2 Guybrush was saying how he wants to win her back with the love bomb and other lines mention guybrush having feelings for her. Elaine allmost got back with him till he mentioned the map. I never once thought of them as bro and sis relation more just a rough patch

[Barnabus]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

If Ron Gilbert thinks that CMI messed up their relationship because they should have had a more sibling type of relationship, then he shouldn't have had them making sexual advances toward each other in the first game! I mean, seriously. It makes me mad how stupid it sounds to suggest that they didn't love each other as consenting adults.

If I remember Gilbert's quote right he was saying more that she saw him kind of like a little brother, not that they had a sibling relationship. The second game makes it pretty clear that Elaine has some attraction to guybrush but doesn't really respect him as an adult, hence the relationship not really working at all. The third game abruptly giving them a traditional trouble-free romance without even acknowledging the development of her character in the previous game was simply poor storytelling, there's really no two ways about it.

[Chyron8472]

Well, I think that Curse, Escape and Tales fit more with the idea of their relationship that was developed in Secret than Revenge does. As was said earlier in this thread, he is a pirate after all. He's not a conventional pirate, but that was part of his charm: "Why do you want to be a pirate? You don't look like one, your face is too... sweet."

Personally, I don't feel that Revenge sufficiently explained why she was mad at him in the first place, and for him to want the map is just part an adventure he was on. In Secret, she didn't seem to care that he was working on the trials and so needed the idol. Why then should she be mad at him for wanting the map?

Also, in Revenge, she ridicules him for giving a too-long explanation, but I was always rather mad at her for not interrupting him long enough to get him out of that hole.To force him to explain himself in full before she even considers helping him was, I think, rather selfish. And again, it's not made entirely clear exactly why she's so mad at him as to make him do that. For him to want the map is just his modus operandi. She should know him well enough not to be mad about that.

Near the end of Secret, it's made clear that she felt she had the situation with LeChuck well in hand without Guybrush's help but I would think that, as a woman, she would appreciate the gesture and think it valiant and romantic. In Revenge, however, it seems that she thinks he's inept and is wasting his time with pointless adventures instead of paying more attention to her. She wasn't so selfish in Secret to treat him that way, she was more independent than that, and so the same for the later games where she seems to understand him better then.

[thatdude98]

-----^ Yes.

[Chyron8472]

In fact, I would add that at the end of Curse, she seems to have redirected the roller coaster, knowing full well that Guybrush would make his way there in an effort to stop LeChuck. Her doing so helped him in creating a way to stop LeChuck, which is in line with both Tales and Secret in that she seems to have been making plans. The only difference with Secret is that she had her own plans in that game, hadn't included Guybrush in them and so didn't expect him to mess them up. By Curse and Tales however, she knows him well enough to plan around and for his usual method of operation. It makes perfect sense to me.

I think Revenge is the one that doesn't make sense. In that game, she seems to be completely oblivious that he's been hanging by a rope over a giant hole for 3 days, makes no effort to help Guybrush or stop LeChuck after Guybrush falls (she only says "What could be keeping Guybrush? I hope LeChuck hasn't put some horrible SPELL over him or anything",) and gets mad at him for doing something that she ignored completely in Secret, perhaps even encouraged back then.

[metroidreborn]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

In fact, I would add that at the end of Curse, she seems to have redirected the roller coaster, knowing full well that Guybrush would make his way there in an effort to stop LeChuck. Her doing so helped him in creating a way to stop LeChuck, which is in line with both Tales and Secret in that she seems to have been making plans. The only difference with Secret is that she had her own plans in that game, hadn't included Guybrush in them and so didn't expect him to mess them up. By Curse and Tales however, she knows him well enough to plan around and for his usual method of operation. It makes perfect sense to me.

I think Revenge is the one that doesn't make sense. In that game, she seems to be completely oblivious that he's been hanging by a rope over a giant hole for 3 days, makes no effort to help Guybrush or stop LeChuck after Guybrush falls (she only says "What could be keeping Guybrush? I hope LeChuck hasn't put some horrible SPELL over him or anything",) and gets mad at him for doing something that she ignored completely in Secret, perhaps even encouraged back then.

I agree with most of what you said. However, the reason why Elaine probably got so upset over him wanting the map piece was because she thought he truly wanted to apologize to her. In Secret, Guybrush came to the mansion solely for the purpose of wanting the idol and it makes more sense for Elaine not to get mad at him then because he didn't try to use his attraction to her as a disguise for what he really wanted. She does get upset though when he could not form a cohesive sentence, showing that even though she didn’t get upset for stealing the idol, she still wanted manners from him.

In Revenge, she had stopped seeing him, but obviously still had feelings for him. By the time of Revenge, she had developed a lot of feelings for him and for him to come in saying he is sorry only for her to find out that he wants the map was a crushing blow to her emotions. Even if many people think that she should’ve realized that it is part of who he was to want the map and should not have taken it personally, emotions always get the better of you. When you are emotional, it overrides any type of logic. People are much more prone to illogical actions when they are emotional, especially if it deals with intimate feelings, such as Elaine demonstrated when she threw the map piece out the window.

[MonkeyMania]

If anything, CMI saved Monkey Island.

[thin029]

Epic post above

[dthoupis]

Originally Posted by dthoupis

I did not claim that Curse destroyed MI. On the contrary it reboosted it.

I think I said the same thing above. Typical Guybrush is willing to ruin someones' life just to get his job done. Remember the cook and the rat? How about him stealing poor Wallys' monocle to get out of the island? Disturbing the dead for a piece of map? Stealing a dog for searching for a map piece to get his job done? Fooling the poor guy at Booty Island by blowing a ships horn just to change the flags? How about nailing a coffin seller into a coffin with no worry if anyone will find out or if he dies in the coffin? Or accusing Kate of being Guybrush and putting her into prison? Is our good Guybrush not such a good guy afterall?

[Chyron8472]

I don't understand your point, or what you're referring to in quoting yourself.

The title of the thread says "Did Curse destroy Monkey Island," and there are people who say that Ron Gilbert says that CMI got off track with the Guybrush+Elaine relationship, while I believe that it's Revenge's depiction of their relationship that doesn't fit, rather than CMI. The other recent posts besides yours discuss that debate, so I'm not sure what you're agreeing with. I'm also unsure what Guybrush being a jerk on a regular basis has to do with "reboost(ing) CMI."


I do understand and can agree with the idea that, in Revenge, Elaine may have been hurt by Guybrush's insensitivity, but that still doesn't sufficiently explain why she made him completely explain himself in the hole (and rather than interrupting him long enough to help, she only chastized him later,) didn't help him or stop LeChuck when he fell, or why Ron would say that she sees Guybrush more as a little brother when she might as well have said she loved him and wanted to have sex with him in the first game when she came to rescue him after being thrown off the dock. This doesn't sound little-brother-ish to me.

[thatdude98]

...Can I have a cookie?

[Barnabus]

In the second game she ditched him because she decided their relationship wasn't really going to work, and was angry about the business with the map back because it showed that she was right all along and he was more interested in his silly quests than in her. Nothing about this is inconsistent with the first game at all. She changed because sometimes fictional characters are allowed to, you know, develop.

Their relationship in curse is more or less consistent with the first game, yes. But the second game moved the characters and their relationship in a different direction, and if you do that it's bad storytelling to reset them to how they were before without giving any convincing motivation for them doing so. When the viewer is forced to come up with their own speculation to explain away inconsistencies in characterisation, the writers aren't doing a good job.

He spends days explaining his whole backstory while hanging from a rope because doing so is funny. And you're still taking the 'little brother' thing painfully literally.

[dthoupis]

The thing is that Curse had a hard task of revamping the series and HAD to come up with a valid story for the ending of MI2. And as I said, Guybrush is shown in a complete different way in the first two games rather than the later. In reality he is more... evil... shall we say in the first two games while in the later two he is shown more naive and silly like. I especially did not like the way LeChuck was treated in Curse as a woos. But I do not think that Curse destroyed MI. And I agree with the above poster regarding everything.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by MonkeyMania

If anything, CMI saved Monkey Island.

I really, really do very much agree with this.

I would bet real money that, without CMI, there would only be 2 MI games made. Ever. I'm convinced that even if Ron did have an MI3 in mind (which I'm not sure I believe,) then he still would never have followed through with making it.

Consider that, even now, the last adult/family-oriented adventure game (ie. one not targeted for small kids) that Ron helped to make before Penny Arcade Adventures and DeathSpank (which isn't even out yet) was MI2 itself and that was 19 years ago. This says something to me about his intent (or lack thereof) to have ever followed up on MI2 with another sequel, even if CMI had never been made.

So I praise CMI both for continuing the series and for giving us Dominic and Earl.

[Barnabus]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

I would bet real money that, without CMI, there would only be 2 MI games made. Ever. I'm convinced that even if Ron did have an MI3 in mind (which I'm not sure I believe,) then he still would never have followed through with making it.

That's exactly what I wish had happened. MI2 should've been the end.

[dthoupis]

Could it be?!!!!

http://n4g.com/news/539624/legendary...roject-on-gttv

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Barnabus

That's exactly what I wish had happened. MI2 should've been the end.

Blasphemy, sir.

Then we wouldn't have Tales either, and without Tales I wouldn't have bothered to investigate Telltale long enough to ever buy episodic Sam & Max, yet now I have all 3 seasons of it.