Did Curse destroy Monkey Island?

[MonkeyMania]

Originally Posted by dthoupis

Could it be?!!!!

http://n4g.com/news/539624/legendary...roject-on-gttv

0% chance that it's Ron Gilbert with his "Monkey Island 3"

[SHODANFreeman]

Originally Posted by Barnabus

That's exactly what I wish had happened. MI2 should've been the end.

You apparently hate playing good adventure games.

[Barnabus]

I like playing good original adventure games. Sequels that push things in interesting new directions are fine; sequels that just reheat the same old ideas I can live without. I love MI2 because it took what was established in the first game and expanded and built on it, and then finished in an interesting way. The rest of the series is generally enjoyable but basically needless.

The popular idea that every good thing needs to be a franchise extending into infinity kind of depresses me. What I used to love about vintage Lucasarts was that, until the later Monkey Islands, they never sequelized anything unless there was a solid creative reason to do so.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Barnabus

What I used to love about vintage Lucasarts was that, until the later Monkey Islands, they never sequelized anything unless there was a solid creative reason to do so.

So... you're saying you're glad that they cancelled Sam & Max: Freelance Police in favor of more Star Wars shovelware?

The fact is that Monkey Island, Maniac Mansion and Indiana Jones are the only things I can thing of right off the top of my head that they made sequels for at all. If there are more, I bet you could only count them on one hand. Star Wars doesn't count.

Besides, a person can make any excuse at all and call it a "creative reason" for doing something. More often, LEC would cancel something creative in favor of Star Wars and blame it on the gaming market.

Telltale doesn't need "creative reasons" to make Sam and Max or Tales, but I love these games and think it ridiculous to suggest they're a waste because the furtherance of the story is unneccessary. These aren't crappy direct-to-video Disney sequels we're talking about, these are wonderful guaranteed-classic adventure games.

If anything, I would say that the end of MI2 is so stupid and random that it required a sequel that I still am not convinced Ron would ever have made, even without CMI. CMI is necessary for the story to continue after what happened in MI2's ending, same as Tales is necessary to continue after EMI in general. As has been said that EMI is better as a black sheep if it's a middle title instead of at the end, so I would say that MI2's ending is more tolerable when it's not the end of the story either.

I've been told by instructors that when listening to/playing music, that "the first impression and the last impression are the most important." I would say the same goes for good storytelling, even in video games and as such, having the story end with MI2's carnival or EMI's monkey robot would be quite lame.

Tales works perfectly fine as an end to the series with how awesome it ended (though I really do want more games and keep the awesome going.) Sure, it has a cliffanger, but it's a good cliffhanger not a stupid one that makes you wonder what the hell just happened.

[Chyron8472]

To further my previous post, I think I should add that there are games that do require a sequel, yet don't have one and suffer greatly for it. Torin's Passage is a good example. As it stands, I would never recommend this game. I liked it alot, but the ending is anticlimactic. He learns that he's a prince and heir to the throne, and then he rescues his adoptive parents and goes home with them to their small farm house... and that's it. Roll credits. Al Lowe, who is a great game designer by the way, has said himself that the game was designed with a sequel in mind.

So the same apparently goes for Ron Gilbert. Ron claims that he wrote MI2 with an MI3 in mind (again, I'm not convinced that he isn't just saying that, but still.) Yet, the MI3 that Ron claims to have originally planned for never got made, never will be made, and never would have been made even without CMI.

For the record, I love the MI universe. I love the characters, the voice acting, the humor and everything else. But with how random and nonsensical the end of MI2 was, if the MI series had stopped with that game, I would never ever tell anyone to play MI2. SMI, yes of course that game is awesome, but it can stand on its own. As it stands now though, I plan on getting my nephews (and my own kids when I have them) hooked on the entire MI series. I probably wouldn't even bother with telling anyone about any of it, if it were that MI2 was the last game.

In short, I think MonkeyMania said it best with:

Originally Posted by MonkeyMania

If anything, CMI saved Monkey Island.

[Barnabus]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

So... you're saying you're glad that they cancelled Sam & Max: Freelance Police in favor of more Star Wars shovelware?

The fact is that Monkey Island, Maniac Mansion and Indiana Jones are the only things I can thing of right off the top of my head that they made sequels for at all. If there are more, I bet you could only count them on one hand. Star Wars doesn't count.

Did you even read what I said? I said I *liked* the fact that vintage Lucasarts was more interested in exploring original ideas and only tended to return to old games on special occasions.

I'm slightly more forgiving of something like Sam & Max being continued because the whole set up there is geared for a series format; only the two main characters have to be there and otherwise there's a lot of freedom in what can be done. Likewise as crap as most Star Wars games are, the universe itself is the only constant factor - the story itself can in theory be about pretty much anything. But post MI2, the Monkey Island series has had the same core characters in the same roles more or less playing out the same simple story with minor variations. There's no real point there beyond providing 'a bit more monkey island'.

I honestly don't get what was so nonsensical about the MI2 ending. There are hints throughout the games that all isn't quite what it appears, then in a twist it turns out that it was two kids playing in a theme park, with another hint that maybe it's all a magic spell - the player is left to decide. It's really not that hard to understand. Have you people never seen a movie with an ambiguous ending before? I get the sense that gamers have difficulty dealing with even mildly challenging or unexpected storytelling approaches. The painfully literal explanation for MI2s ending in Curse certainly didn't do either game any favours.

[SHODANFreeman]

Originally Posted by Barnabus

I honestly don't get what was so nonsensical about the MI2 ending. There are hints throughout the games that all isn't quite what it appears, then in a twist it turns out that it was two kids playing in a theme park, with another hint that maybe it's all a magic spell - the player is left to decide. It's really not that hard to understand. Have you people never seen a movie with an ambiguous ending before? I get the sense that gamers have difficulty dealing with even mildly challenging or unexpected storytelling approaches. The painfully literal explanation for MI2s ending in Curse certainly didn't do either game any favours.

I honestly don't get why people make the ending out to be this huge deep thing when it was just a corny Star Wars reference and intentionally anti-climactic beyond reason. I'm fairly certain that Tim has even said at some point that it was supposed to be anti-climactic and not mean anything. It's not like Ron, Tim and Dave were like "oh man, this would be so epic if we had this killer ending open to interpretation" It was ridiculous and over the top to make fun of movies that have big "reveals" at the ending (for example, Darth Vader being Luke's father, blatantly referenced in the ending scene of MI2), but it was still a crap ending.

There aren't "hints" throughout the games. You're finding hints where there are none, because the ending was made as a joke, not some super-serious conclusion to some amazing dramatic storyline. The storyline in MI has always existed solely to provide the possibility of jokes. It was never meant to have some deep serious story that would blow your mind or something ridiculous like that, and if "oh, uh... they're kids in a theme park" blows your mind, you're pretty easy to amuse. (Not to mention that Ron has publicly stated that the whole kids in a theme park thing isn't a correct theory at all)

[VoodooDerina]

I don't know why is it so hard to accept that the MI2 ending is deliberately anticlimatic and parodic. For me it's brilliant and ingenious because it is so simple and yet almost 20 years later we still discuss it over and over again

[Phobius]

The Curse of Monkey Island is one of the best in the series. More than a game, I treat that part as a work of art. It *is* a work of art. Beautifully hand-drawn animations and backdrops, a brilliant soundtrack (Michael Land FTW), funny, clever. Jesus, that game rocked. It is my number two on the "Best Games of All Time" list. I understand some people have a purist view on the subject, wanting future games (>= 3 (CMI)) to be canon to the story of the previous part, but I reject the notion that CMI ruined the series. It brought the series into the modern age and I believe it shows what LucasArts is capable of if the just stop making those god-damned Star Wars games all the time!

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Barnabus

Did you even read what I said? I said I *liked* the fact that vintage Lucasarts was more interested in exploring original ideas and only tended to return to old games on special occasions.

Yes, and what I said in response was that, most often, they wouldn't not-create-sequels to games merely because the story didn't require it, but rather they didn't create them because LEC thought Star Wars was more worth the effort of milking the hell out of. This is to say that I'd have preferred more classic adventure game sequels and less Star Wars shovelware.

[SRTie4k]

I loved Curse myself, just as I love all of the MI games (yes, even EMI, although it was definitely the low point of the series), and I honestly couldn't care less whether Ron has a hand in making any more MI sequels. He made his own decision to kick that license to the curb years ago, and we've all seen how a director with a few great works of art can try to recreate the magic years later and fail horrendously (the LucasArts namesake...what a coincidence).

His ship sailed off into the sunset long ago.

[jaden551]

make a movie detailing the carnival,how he escaped and how his memory was lost.

[thin029]

Man, and I thought I had the weirdest preferences on these forums (since only a few here seem to agree with me on Escape being awesome or Tales' soundtrack being lacking, for example), but this Barnabus guy easily beats me.

[Commander_Keen]

Curse was just a bit pointless. MI2 ended the story perfectly, although I realise a lot of people like nice neat conclusions.

It's not a bad little game, don't get me wrong, but to me it's not Monkey Island. I don't treat it or anything after it as canon. Its feel, its (cartoonish) graphical style, the characterisation, even the fact that the characters are voiced rather than having text, well it all feels wrong somehow.

I almost group it in the same category as Quest for Glory 5 or Gabriel Knight 2: a graphical adventure from the end of the genre's golden age, when games companies were trying to do new things with them to make them more appealing in a very different landscape and, for the most part, failing.

Originally Posted by Barnabus

I honestly don't get what was so nonsensical about the MI2 ending. There are hints throughout the games that all isn't quite what it appears, then in a twist it turns out that it was two kids playing in a theme park, with another hint that maybe it's all a magic spell - the player is left to decide. It's really not that hard to understand. Have you people never seen a movie with an ambiguous ending before? I get the sense that gamers have difficulty dealing with even mildly challenging or unexpected storytelling approaches. The painfully literal explanation for MI2s ending in Curse certainly didn't do either game any favours.

I completely agree. It's quite a daring concept in a computer game, I think. It's almost like some people would rather not have any depth or experimentation in storytelling, from the violent reactions against it.

Originally Posted by SHODANFreeman

I honestly don't get why people make the ending out to be this huge deep thing when it was just a corny Star Wars reference and intentionally anti-climactic beyond reason. I'm fairly certain that Tim has even said at some point that it was supposed to be anti-climactic and not mean anything. It's not like Ron, Tim and Dave were like "oh man, this would be so epic if we had this killer ending open to interpretation" It was ridiculous and over the top to make fun of movies that have big "reveals" at the ending (for example, Darth Vader being Luke's father, blatantly referenced in the ending scene of MI2), but it was still a crap ending.

There aren't "hints" throughout the games. You're finding hints where there are none, because the ending was made as a joke, not some super-serious conclusion to some amazing dramatic storyline. The storyline in MI has always existed solely to provide the possibility of jokes. It was never meant to have some deep serious story that would blow your mind or something ridiculous like that, and if "oh, uh... they're kids in a theme park" blows your mind, you're pretty easy to amuse. (Not to mention that Ron has publicly stated that the whole kids in a theme park thing isn't a correct theory at all)

It's not meant to be "super serious", and the themepark theory doesn't exclude it ALSO being intended as a funny Star Wars reference. I think the hints throughout actually introduce another level of fun, making you see the games in a new light as well.

I think you're doing the series a bit of a disservice, to be honest.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

I'm just gonna ignore most of the posts in here cause really, I don't need to read every last theory out there. Most fans have their own take, and since this thread is called "Did CoMI destroy Monkey Island?" I'll give my own take.

The short answer: No.

The long answer: Nooooooooooo- okay, sorry, had to toss that joke in there.

In all seriousness, I actually enjoyed Curse of Monkey Island the most. It had just the right amount of difficulty, even if a couple of the puzzles left me agonizing for an hour or more before I had to - in frustration - go and quickly look it up, then slap myself on the forehead going "how the hell did I miss that?". Where as when I played Monkey Island 2 Special Edition, I sadly found myself having to get a "hint" on about a third of the puzzles, cause I just wasn't able to put 2 and 2 together on a number of them. They were, again, more of those "how did I miss this?" moments, but a few of them I just didn't even know I could do a couple of those things. I think one of the more humbling ones was not realizing I could use the bucket of mud on Largo's door; I so rarely ever close doors, it never even occurred to me to have anything to do with it.

Someone I recall once threw out the phrase "Monkey Island Logic", and I think that really does apply. Monkey Island 1, however, I never needed a single hint. That felt good. I felt .. well, I honestly felt like I was trying to run up a very steep hill with Monkey Island 2, and the tedious back-tracking was rather annoying. I enjoyed the commentary where they even admitted that "having to visit all islands to solve all puzzles" was something they weren't super happy about afterwards.

Honestly, if you listen to the commentary, you'd quickly realize that Ron Gilbert not only was okay with the sequels, but they all even stated that Monkey Island 2 is listed as both one of the Top 10 Best Endings AND Top 10 Worst Endings. They pretty much stated they simply came up with an idea over dinner one night and started putting several twists onto it and came up with the ending. They were both rather pleased with it, but also disappointed because they knew, later on, that it was gonna divide the fans down the middle. That wasn't what they'd intended, but it was what happened, and they were saddened by it.

I will also make a confession. While I had played all the King's Quest games in the late 90's via the King's Quest Collection, I never was able to get copies of Monkey Island or Grim Fandango, or many other great games of the genre. So the first game I finally got to play (although I'd long known about the series) was Escape From Monkey Island.

To sum it up, I loved the game, hated Monkey Fu or whatever it was called, and desperately wanted to play the others. Sadly, it wouldn't happen for years. While I chuckled and even laughed out loud playing Monkey Island 1 and 2 on the Xbox 360 for the first time, Curse of Monkey Island made me laugh the hardest, really sealed up most of the plotholes, and enjoyed poking a bit of fun at the ones that remained. I loved the artwork, the voice acting was great, and I loved all the nods and references to the previous games.

In no way did Monkey Island 3 hurt the series. If anything, it saved it, because love it or hate it, there's no question that Monkey Island 2 had.. as TVTropes would call it.. a GAINAX Ending. Where there are almost NO answers to the many questions, more questions are made, and in general the player is left feeling unsatisfied, disappointed, and likely wanting to know WTF just happened.

Monkey Island 2 is essentially like Monty Python & the Holy Grail. It's super, fun, and great all the way up until the heavily WTF ending, and it just feels.. almost like a cop-out, I guess. If anything, it feels like the odd man out in the series. I loved playing it, I enjoyed the humour, and I still like the notions and theories that have sprung up to explain it..

But guys (and gals), you have to face facts. Curse, Escape, and Tales ARE official canon. Ron was in no way upset by their creation, and unlike Metroid when it's creator left, the sequels to Monkey Island have only made the characters more interesting, more endearing, and given the series exactly what it needed.


EDIT: Noticed someone mentioned Lucas and StarWars in conjunction with Ron and Monkey Island. I should point out that Lucas has pretty much destroyed StarWars with constant retcons, remakes, and expanded universe crap which, in my opinion, watered down so much of what made the original trilogy great.

Don't always say the creator would do better, or that the creator always knows best. The example of Lucas and StarWars is the other side of the Author Coin. I personally think Nintendo has destroyed the Metroid series after Gunpei was dishonoured and left the company. I did find Fusion to be good, but after knowing that Sakamoto had Other M's storyline in mind back when Fusion was made.. I can't even play it without thinking of that abomination, and what the bastard did to a series (and a character) I loved growing up.

So yeah.. be careful what you wish for guys. Ron seems like a pretty intelligent guy, I doubt he'd make all the mistakes some have made, and I would think he's happy people still play new Monkey Island games and love the characters he created.

[SHODANFreeman]

I don't know who you are, but I love you.

[OzzieMonkey]

Originally Posted by SHODANFreeman

I don't know who you are, but I love you.

I second that. A post like that make me wish this forum had a 'like' option.

[floweroftheforest]

Originally Posted by SHODANFreeman

I don't know who you are, but I love you.

me too!
Can you make a new tomi happen?
Purty please?

[wellgolly]

The thread title threw me off, so it's nice to see other folks consider the third game their favorite.

Man, that game ruled.

[Hiroshi Mishima]

Responses like those make me feel all warm and demonic inside.

In-joking aside, if I can make a post like that and not only remain unflamed, but actually agreed with, it certainly makes me feel better about the MI community. I've been in other communities where people just don't know how to handle posts like mine. Many thanks.