Question about Herman *Escape, MI2 spoilers*

[thin029]

So, ever sinced I registered on these forums and started reading about Monkey Island on the internet as a whole I was actually very surprised MOST people either hate or have big issues with Escape from Monkey Island. As a huge fan of the game, I tried to listen to some people's explanations. The most common reasons I heard for bashing it are its keyboard controls and Guybrush 3D model, which, in my humble opinion, doesn't make the game worse than any other of its series, they're more like personal issues. The only acceptable, elaborate logic I heard from Escape haters so far is that it destroyed Herman Toothrot's story, and since I had never played MI2, I couldn't doubt anything.
Now that I've finally completed MI2, I've got to ask! What's the problem with Herman being Horacio Torquemeda Marley? It's even hinted on MI2 that a Marley captain disappeared while racing, and the parrot kept repeating lines that were used on Escape from Monkey Island! Everything fits perfectly! Did I miss a detail that creates a plot hole or something?

[MusicallyInspired]

Go play Secret. Herman didn't have a big role in MI2. It was much bigger with more story in Secret.

[thin029]

I played Secret when the Special Edition was released. I remember he ended stuck at Monkey Island, but he's at Dinky on MI2. Ok, but that should be a reason to hate MI2, not Escape!

[OzzieMonkey]

Originally Posted by thin029

I played Secret when the Special Edition was released. I remember he ended stuck at Monkey Island, but he's at Dinky on MI2. Ok, but that should be a reason to hate MI2, not Escape!

Its also how Escape ignored what was explained by Lechuck at the end of Curse of what happened to Captain Marley that doesn't make the Herman=HT Marley possible.

[metroidreborn]

Yeah, LeChuck explained in Curse that he tortured Marley, left him for dead, and sent his ship into a whirlpool. This was supposedly almost a year before Secret started. This explanation fit pretty well and kept the storyline going in a nice and clear direction, though some hated this explanation simply because it wasn't what Ron intended. Anyway, when Escape came out, it not only shattered this whole plot point, but also Herman's story.

Herman gives a detailed explanation of how he came to be stranded on Monkey Island in the first game. Escape contradicts that saying he was Elaine’s grandfather, mentions that Ozzie was the one who pushed his ship into a whirlpool, and that whirlpool is the reason why he got stranded. Some claim that Ozzie was actually enlisted by LeChuck to help him, but this also makes no sense because Herman specifically states that he was pushed into the whirlpool over 20 years ago. That makes no sense because that would mean LeChuck had been stalking Elaine for at least 20 years by the time the game starts and I highly doubt Elaine is any older than mid twenties. Both Secret and Curse state that LeChuck had only been obsessed with Elaine for a few days before becoming undead, making this whole Herman thing a huge mess.

With that being said I also love Escape, but there is no question that this plot point really did mess up the story. The best thing I can think of is that Herman is her great grandfather, but that's only something I personally think so the storyline still makes sense. On a side note, the resaon why Herman is on Dinky Island in the second game when he was standed on Monkey Island (There is actually another ending if you sink your ship where the crew is standed on the island and Herman is rescued) is explained by the fact that Dinky and Monkey are connected by underwater tunnels shown at the end of Monkey 2.

[doodinthemood]

Also, in his log, he sails to Monkey Island with a mate who calls him toothrot.
In MI4, he washes up on the beach of Monkey Island then adopts the name.

Escape is a great game by the way, just the weakest in the series.

[Davies]

I don't really want to get bogged down in another 'why EFMI sucks' type of thread but I should point out that the Herman Toothrot revelation isn't the only thing that I (and quite a few others) disliked. It was also the Mecha King-Kong at the end of the game, it just doesn't fit into the Monkey Island world at all...

Some people argue that a robotic monkey was originally a concept for SOMI (which is true) but lets face it, they dropped that idea for a reason! Also, in SOMI the giant monkey head leads to an underground network of lava and caves, so how on Earth does it change to a buried robot in EFMI. It makes no sense at all.

And before someone suggests that a giant robot is acceptable in a Monkey Island game because of the other forms of modern machinery (e.g. the grog vending machine, neon signs etc.), I hardly think those things are at the same level as a massive frikin' robot. The other technologies seen in the MI series are technologies we have access to in todays world (and quite basic technology at that). Since when do we have oversized mechs in todays world?

People who claim that the robot monkey fits in, by their own rationale, must also believe that a star fighter (x-wing stlye), or at least a space shuttle would also fit in the MI world... of course it bloody doesn't.

That darn 50 foot monstrosity is the prime reason I so strongly dislike EFMI, I just can't take the game as canon.

...hey, I guess I did get bogged down in another 'why EFMI sucks' thread... D'oh!

[Borracho]

*deep deep sigh*

You guys are so missing the point.

These are meant to be fun, entertaining surreal distractions from life.

Your insistence of maintaning "canon" in such things only goes on your permanent S.A.D record.

Monkey Island is the cool fantasy pirate place with the adult injokes and our inner eternal teenager goofing it up, constantly.

It's pure escapism, not rocket science.

Roll with it.

[Davies]

Originally Posted by Borracho

*deep deep sigh*

You guys are so missing the point.

These are meant to be fun, entertaining surreal distractions from life.

Your insistence of maintaning "canon" in such things only goes on your permanent S.A.D record.

Monkey Island is the cool fantasy pirate place with the adult injokes and our inner eternal teenager goofing it up, constantly.

It's pure escapism, not rocket science.

Roll with it.

For the record I think we should be entitled to our own opinions, no?

Anyway, maybe you're right. I look forward to playing the second season of TOMI, where Guybrush launches into space, flies through an alternate dimension and does battle with an enourmous, metallic space octopus, declaring he is 'Guybrush Threepwood, mighty space ranger'...

*deep, deep sigh* indeed Sir.

Okay, I'll stop being facetious but seriously, surely you would agree that there has to be some boundaries on what can and can't take place in a Monkey Island game? Otherwise, it would be a franchise without definition.

[Gman5852]

Originally Posted by thin029

I played Secret when the Special Edition was released. I remember he ended stuck at Monkey Island, but he's at Dinky on MI2. Ok, but that should be a reason to hate MI2, not Escape!

noncanon ending. He sailed with guybrush if you sunk guybrush's ship which was considerd canon by escapes means due to carla, otis, and meathook talking aobut how guybrush stranded them.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by metroidreborn

LeChuck explained in Curse that he tortured Marley, left him for dead, and sent his ship into a whirlpool. This was supposedly almost a year before Secret started. This explanation fit pretty well and kept the storyline going in a nice and clear direction, though some hated this explanation simply because it wasn't what Ron intended. Anyway, when Escape came out, it not only shattered this whole plot point, but also Herman's story.

Herman gives a detailed explanation of how he came to be stranded on Monkey Island in the first game. Escape contradicts that saying he was Elaine’s grandfather, mentions that Ozzie was the one who pushed his ship into a whirlpool, and that whirlpool is the reason why he got stranded. Some claim that Ozzie was actually enlisted by LeChuck to help him, but this also makes no sense because Herman specifically states that he was pushed into the whirlpool over 20 years ago. That makes no sense because that would mean LeChuck had been stalking Elaine for at least 20 years by the time the game starts and I highly doubt Elaine is any older than mid twenties. Both Secret and Curse state that LeChuck had only been obsessed with Elaine for a few days before becoming undead, making this whole Herman thing a huge mess.

Originally Posted by doodinthemood

Also, in his log, he sails to Monkey Island with a mate who calls him toothrot.
In MI4, he washes up on the beach of Monkey Island then adopts the name.

If I think about it... in Curse, LeChuck talks about how he murdered the four men with the map pieces, and how he used the money made from selling the Goodsoup Family diamond to buy a ship. This would put those events close together, and it couldn't have been 20 years ago because Griswold (owner of the hotel) said that he personally locked the door of the room Charles De Goulash was staying in after he died from being trapped in the murphy bed for too long. And anyway, if entering Big Whoop (or rather the gates of Hell) killed LeChuck and he did so to gain unholy power and win Elaine, it can't have happened that long ago either as Elaine is not that old.

In Secret, there is a Captain's Log in the captain's quarters of the Sea Monkey wherein the (unnamed) captain of the ship travels to Monkey Island with his first mate, who goes by the name of Toothrot during the whole voyage there. Herman says that he likes the view from on top of the cliff even though he's "been looking at it for over 20 years now" which means he would have to have been there longer than the time that had passed since Captain Marley and company set out to find Big Whoop.

In Revenge, the guy who lives in the house where Rum Rogers died in his bathtub says that he moved in a couple of months ago and everyone comes by looking for treasure. If Rum Rogers had died 20 years ago, why had his house been vacant all that time up until just very recently? Also, Rapp Scallion was killed by a flash fire in his Weenie Hut, and Rapp asks you to turn off the gas. It's highly unlikely that the gas would have been left on for 20 years by the time Guybrush got there.

The timeline proposed by Escape completely ignores any of this, and so throws the whole thing out of whack. It makes more sense to say that Toothrot either was lying or is insane and so manufactured the whole tale, perhaps just to get Guybrush to stop repeatedly throwing stuff as his head.

Originally Posted by Davies

the Herman Toothrot revelation isn't the only thing that I (and quite a few others) disliked. It was also the Mecha King-Kong at the end of the game, it just doesn't fit into the Monkey Island world at all...

Some people argue that a robotic monkey was originally a concept for SOMI (which is true) but lets face it, they dropped that idea for a reason! Also, in SOMI the giant monkey head leads to an underground network of lava and caves, so how on Earth does it change to a buried robot in EFMI. It makes no sense at all.

My primary issue with the Monkey Robot in Escape isn't as much as it's stupid and doesn't fit (though that's true), but more so that it destroys the Giant Monkey Head in more ways than one.

The Giant Monkey Head is (presumably) either the fossilized head of an actual giant monkey or made of stone (not metal), as seen here:



and here:



As you can clearly see, there is a giant skeletal structure directly below the Giant Monkey Head. Is there any room for a giant robot to be there? No. The robot's head is suppose to either be part of or inside the Giant Monkey Head, and this giant skeleton is obviously in the way of where its body should be.

So the robot being activated not only physically destroys the Giant Monkey Head, but its very existence contradicts the existence of the skeleton which appears to be physically attached to the head.

Suffice it to say the Monkey Robot not only is stupid, but also make no sense.

[Davies]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Suffice it to say the Monkey Robot not only is stupid, but also make no sense.

That's what I meant when I said "...in SOMI the giant monkey head leads to an underground network of lava and caves, so how on Earth does it change to a buried robot in EFMI. It makes no sense at all".

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Davies

That's what I meant when I said "...in SOMI the giant monkey head leads to an underground network of lava and caves, so how on Earth does it change to a buried robot in EFMI. It makes no sense at all".

Well, in Escape, Toothrot says that the caverns were sealed off and disappeared, but that still doesn't explain where the giant skeleton went.

[Farlander]

Let's face it, the only game that didn't have any contradictions with MI1 and 2 is, well, MI1 and 2. Oh, and, IRRC, ToMI.

[Davies]

Originally Posted by Chyron8472

Well, in Escape, Toothrot says that the caverns were sealed off and disappeared, but that still doesn't explain where the giant skeleton went.

Indeed it doesn't but I'm guessing that the implication is that someone built the robot post-SOMI. Um, what a load of old tosh! Who exactly was supposed to have build this robot and more importantly, why?! Methinks, the developers were making this crap up as they went along. Surely, I'm forgetting some important plot point?

[Epic Kiwi]

It's possible that Captain Marley went crazy during his long sea voyage and fabricated the Herman Toothrot persona in his mind who then became a separate personality... 8D I'm not sure why I'm defending Escape for pulling random plot twists out of its rear-end, though.

[doodinthemood]

I was honestly fine with the robot thing. Sure, it doesn't seem very monkey islandy, but it doesn't really contradict anything. The catacombs were constantly changing, remember. They could easily have been voodoo'd away or voodoo'd into hiding. Or they could still be there, and different opening mechanisms for the giant head causes different parts of it to be revealed.
As for the Herman Toothrot thing, I'd be happy to accept that he's crazy and so made up that entire story, but then we need to explain the seal thing he has.

[Borracho]

Give it a rest already!

It's a goddamn videogame!

Videogames are supposed to be ENTERTAINING. Fun.

I've been gaming since the very beginning and loved the Golden Geek Years but seriously I remember Toothrot as the funky hermit weirdo from Monkey Island.

Who cares who he is or isn't, he's not real, he's there to add to the madness.

And you know what? Guybrush is Guybrush even if he declares himsefl a fine leather jacket salesman.

It's all about being FUN not being CANON.

Otherwise go write the Monkey Island Bible and worship while life passes you by.

[metroidreborn]

Originally Posted by Borracho

Give it a rest already!

It's a goddamn videogame!

Videogames are supposed to be ENTERTAINING. Fun.

I've been gaming since the very beginning and loved the Golden Geek Years but seriously I remember Toothrot as the funky hermit weirdo from Monkey Island.

Who cares who he is or isn't, he's not real, he's there to add to the madness.

And you know what? Guybrush is Guybrush even if he declares himsefl a fine leather jacket salesman.

It's all about being FUN not being CANON.

Otherwise go write the Monkey Island Bible and worship while life passes you by.

Yeah, I always figured that when the catacombs were sealed, it allowed Guybrush to actually explore the head and find the passage. As for the Herman thing, it's a shame that they just never made him Elain'e great grandfather. It would still fit with him having the seal and Elaine is young enough to have a great grandfather still alive and Herman does look pretty damn old.

[Davies]

Originally Posted by doodinthemood

As for the Herman Toothrot thing, I'd be happy to accept that he's crazy and so made up that entire story, but then we need to explain the seal thing he has.

Why should the consumer have to come up with vague reasons for a big plot point instead of the developers? It's not like they thought it through or anything and have a secret reason for all of this...

Afterall, the game may contain tropical islands but it's still 'Monkey Island', not 'Lost'.