Movie plotholes/ The only thing that doesn't add up

[Laserschwert]

Originally Posted by hamza721

i never understood the end of the third movie. Marty and Doc have to get back before Mad Dog kills one of them but after Mad Dog is taken to jail Marty and Doc have all the time in the world to go back to 1985 but instead go immediately

But they have to catch the train!... of course, they could have also waited for the next one.

[Sinaz20]

Originally Posted by Dangeresque

the only thing that think didnt add up in this movie was the fact that Marty's parents doent remember him. i mean sure its 30 years later (speaking of the 1st movie) but even if for only a week he was still a huge influence in both their lives right? when he started getting older wouldnt they start saying, hey wait a minute, this guy looks really familiar.

Worse yet wouldn't george suspect loraine of cheating on her with marty? i mean calvin marty in the late 60s?

just a stupid point. it might make no sence but its something that popped to my head and figure i'd share it. of course dont mean no offence to the trilogy

Who's to say they don't know?

Maybe George and Lorraine wisened up sometime early in Marty's childhood when he accidentally set fire to the living room. Maybe they suspected-- certainly a sci-fi author like George could imagine the possibility.

Maybe Lorraine one night broached the subject with George-- they laughed at first, then sat in silence for half an hour processing it.

Lorraine suggests they ask Marty about it. George, being well versed in such science fiction concepts says "No! We can't... he doesn't even know about it yet! One day, when the time is right, he'll feel the need to tell us. Until then, we can't warn Marty or acknowledge it... his very existence may depend on it!"

dun DUN DAAAAAAA DA-DA-DA-DAAAA-DA-DAAAAAaaaaaaaaa

...

I'm not sayin'-- I'm just sayin'

[ttg_Stemmle]

Originally Posted by Sinaz20

Who's to say they don't know?

In my heart of hearts, I always believed that the penny eventually dropped for George and Lorraine. Considering how much they'd built up their "kiss of destiny" BEFORE Marty altered the timeline, it would be weird if they completely forgot about "Calvin Klein" in the new timeline.

I figure the "WTF" moment would occur either sometime in 1977, when they go see Star Wars, or in early 1985, when Lorraine is out buying new underwear for Marty...

And yes, they WOULD keep it a secret.

Mike "'Cause the Dinner Conversations Would Be AWK-ward" Stemmle

[Javi-Wan Kenobi]

Originally Posted by ttg_Stemmle

I figure the "WTF" moment would occur either sometime in 1977, when they go see Star Wars...

Maybe George McFly meet George Lucas somewhere and told him the story of the "real" Darth Vader, and then Back to the Future is actually the source of Star Wars, in one of these funny filmic time paradox (the soldier of the future being John Connors' father, Captain Kirk pawning in Star Trek IV the glasses that Dr. McCoy give him in Star Trek II, etc...)

[Sinaz20]

Originally Posted by Javi-Wan Kenobi

Maybe George McFly meet George Lucas somewhere and told him the story of the "real" Darth Vader, and then Back to the Future is actually the source of Star Wars, in one of these funny filmic time paradox (the soldier of the future being John Connors' father, Captain Kirk pawning in Star Trek IV the glasses that Dr. McCoy give him in Star Trek II, etc...)

I actually imagine that the Star Wars films were very traumatic for George. Like his friends are all, "oh man, Star Wars is such an amazing epic movie!" And George is like, "I don't like horror movies." And his friends just stare at him.

Similar... I imagine George watching Star Trek and, with wide eyes, mouthing "Planet Vulcan???"

I'm sure Marty's stunt turned out to be totally therapy worthy.

[Katsuro]

Originally Posted by Sinaz20

I actually imagine that the Star Wars films were very traumatic for George. Like his friends are all, "oh man, Star Wars is such an amazing epic movie!" And George is like, "I don't like horror movies." And his friends just stare at him.

Similar... I imagine George watching Star Trek and, with wide eyes, mouthing "Planet Vulcan???"

I'm sure Marty's stunt turned out to be totally therapy worthy.

Yeah I was always wondering about that...
On the other hand, I wonder if he remembered the names right while writing, considering his book getting released in 1985 (quite some time after the initial appearence of marty).
The Calvin Klein thing, I imagine, would turn out to be a nice anecdote "Maybe he was that guy from back then".

[Laserschwert]

What I found strange though was how Marty was the only one who didn't change at all, while his parents and siblings did. Surely growing up with a completely different family would make you different person. But that's where Lorraine and George might come into play... knowing that Marty HAS to meet up with Doc at that night in 1985 (maybe Doc even told them before Marty was born) to even exist, they might have steered his life towards that moment.

[Sinaz20]

Originally Posted by Laserschwert

What I found strange though was how Marty was the only one who didn't change at all, while his parents and siblings did. Surely growing up with a completely different family would make you different person. But that's where Lorraine and George might come into play... knowing that Marty HAS to meet up with Doc at that night in 1985 (maybe Doc even told them before Marty was born) to even exist, they might have steered his life towards that moment.

That's because the Marty we follow into the new 1985 never lived that life. The Marty that experienced the new and improved life jumped back to 1955 the night before, just before Doc revealed the taped up letter to our Marty.

We've discovered that the Back to the Future time travelling relies less on sciency accuracy and more on dramatic presentation.

The whole one timeline vs. multiple timelines is a particle/wave sort of theory in the movies. Sometimes you fade in and out as though you are effecting your own timeline, and sometimes you are trapped in another timeline even though the general circumstances are the same.

Consider that when Marty first goes back to 1955, he is worrying about his own future and fading in and out, suggesting that he is effecting the timeline he came from and not the new one he created.

However in BttF2, when they go back to 1985B, they some how go back to Biff's altered timeline rather than their own... then Doc goes ahead and explains a time travel theory that seems to contradict their current predicament-- they should have initially traveled back to their non-rich-Biff past rather than into 1985B, 1985B should have been a timeline inaccessible to them... in Biff's new timeline, time-travelling Marty and Doc should have been a non-issue.

...but, dramatic effect dictates otherwise.

Particle/wave.

This is something we are constantly reminding ourselves in story meetings-- It's ok that so-and-so doesn't quite gel with timelines because the dramatic payoff outweighs the tiny plot discrepancy.

[LuigiHann]

Originally Posted by Sinaz20

That's because the Marty we follow into the new 1985 never lived that life. The Marty that experienced the new and improved life jumped back to 1955 the night before, just before Doc revealed the taped up letter to our Marty.

We've discovered that the Back to the Future time travelling relies less on sciency accuracy and more on dramatic presentation.

The whole one timeline vs. multiple timelines is a particle/wave sort of theory in the movies. Sometimes you fade in and out as though you are effecting your own timeline, and sometimes you are trapped in another timeline even though the general circumstances are the same.

Consider that when Marty first goes back to 1955, he is worrying about his own future and fading in and out, suggesting that he is effecting the timeline he came from and not the new one he created.

However in BttF2, when they go back to 1985B, they some how go back to Biff's altered timeline rather than their own... then Doc goes ahead and explains a time travel theory that seems to contradict their current predicament-- they should have initially traveled back to their non-rich-Biff past rather than into 1985B, 1985B should have been a timeline inaccessible to them... in Biff's new timeline, time-travelling Marty and Doc should have been a non-issue.

...but, dramatic effect dictates otherwise.

Particle/wave.

This is something we are constantly reminding ourselves in story meetings-- It's ok that so-and-so doesn't quite gel with timelines because the dramatic payoff outweighs the tiny plot discrepancy.

Now I'm worried! The guy designing the game doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the "Time Ripple Effect" by which the newly created timeline gradually replaced the old timeline, expanding slowly "outward" from the point of divergence, and generally reaching the time travelers themselves last. It doesn't make real-world sense, but it makes Back to the Future sense.

And the Time Ripple Effect did eventually catch up with Marty. In his confused argument with Old Biff in the Cafe 80s in BTTF2, he agitatedly defends his father (not realizing that Biff was talking about Future Marty). He very specifically says "George McFly was never a loser," words chosen to suggest that by this point, our Marty remembers growing up in the new, cool-George timeline.

Marty's fading out in BTTF1 is the result of the Time Ripple Effect as well, as the new timeline he created when he stopped his parents from meeting, the timeline in which he was never born, began to replace the timeline that he came from, erasing him from existence. Marty and Doc faced basically the same issue in 1985A: the world had already been "replaced," and if that ripple caught up to them, the time machine itself risked eventual erasure as well. I don't quite understand why you think that Marty and Doc should have landed in the timeline that they left from... although depending on the "speed" of the time ripple they could easily have landed in 1985 before it changed or while it was changing. But the speed of the time ripple does seem to vary at the movie's convenience.

Oh God why do I even know this? Carry on

[Sinaz20]

Originally Posted by LuigiHann

Now I'm worried! The guy designing the game doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the "Time Ripple Effect" by which the newly created timeline gradually replaced the old timeline, expanding slowly "outward" from the point of divergence, and generally reaching the time travelers themselves last. It doesn't make real-world sense, but it makes Back to the Future sense.

Respectfully, I believe I do have a grasp... and that grasp is that the rules change based on what the story needs. There are those that argue for multiple parallel time lines, and those (like Bob Gale) who argue for just one timeline that keeps getting rewritten... even though it tends to go both ways.

And the Time Ripple Effect did eventually catch up with Marty. In his confused argument with Old Biff in the Cafe 80s in BTTF2, he agitatedly defends his father (not realizing that Biff was talking about Future Marty). He very specifically says "George McFly was never a loser," words chosen to suggest that by this point, our Marty remembers growing up in the new, cool-George timeline.

You should watch that scene again (btw, I have the movies instantly available to review... so I'm double checking everything ,) because he's getting ready do defend George McFly who just yesterday he had finished helping converting from a loser to a winner. He's still quite the original Marty who is still adjusting to his new family.

Marty's fading out in BTTF1 is the result of the Time Ripple Effect as well, as the new timeline he created when he stopped his parents from meeting, the timeline in which he was never born, began to replace the timeline that he came from, erasing him from existence. Marty and Doc faced basically the same issue in 1985A: the world had already been "replaced," and if that ripple caught up to them, the time machine itself risked eventual erasure as well.

...and by that logic, wouldn't Marty sort of fade to Switzerland, and Doc fade to an asylum? Are they separate from the timeline or part of it? There was no indication that Doc was worried about time ripples catching up with them. He just felt they had to go back to 1955 to remove the almanac from play.

I know there was supposed to be a scene where Biff fades out in 2010 and Hill Valley starts to transition as Doc and Marty flee... But in 1985B, what's taking the ripples so long to take effect? (I have this interesting idea I'll explain further down.)

I don't quite understand why you think that Marty and Doc should have landed in the timeline that they left from... although depending on the "speed" of the time ripple they could easily have landed in 1985 before it changed or while it was changing. But the speed of the time ripple does seem to vary at the movie's convenience.

When Doc explains that they are in timeline B, he states that going forward in time would result in 2010B, and so you've got to go back to 1955 just as timeline B is beginning to diverge to remove the catalyst. So, going back from 1985B, you end up in 1955-proto-B.

Therefore, if you went back in time from 2010A, you should just end up in 1985A, because 1985B is an entirely different timeline... If the timelines were highways, Marty and Doc are driving down I-10 west, while Biff drives back up I-10 east, then he turns around at the I-210 west junction. If you drive back to some intermediate mile marker to intercept Biff... you are still on I-10, while Biff is on I-210.

What I was getting at is that Doc specifically describes discrete timelines and doesn't say anything about "time ripples." However, he totally ignores the idea, when he draws his timeline diagram, that they should have time jumped back to 1985A. The simple diagram totally suggests that that would happen... he draws the skew from 1955, but doesn't draw some sort of 'ripple' showing the DeLorean leaping from timeline A to B. Watch that scene again... it is a plot hole.

4th dimensionally it makes sense to me... but then, I took a philosophy class in college devoted to the study and perception of time in media and culture... so I've been trained to overthink it. But if you have something to cite, let me know... change my mind!

Oh God why do I even know this? Carry on

So, that idea about ripples... I had brought up the idea that photos and stuff go fading in and out because the results of the photograph are based on decisions being made by people... if they are convicted to a destiny, then the photo is perfect. If they are convicted to something other than their destiny, then the photo is erased. If convictions are wishy-washy, then things fade in and out.

However, if someone does something decisive, then the future just changes-- BAM. George shoves the guy at the dance and kisses Lorraine, and BAM, Marty is 100% all of a sudden. Again-- dramatic effect.

Particle/wave.

[LuigiHann]

I won't concede any of my arguments, but your ability to argue it on this level has given me a lot more faith in the project (Although your use of 2010 instead of 2015 is alternately worrying and intriguing)

I will comment on this though:

When Doc explains that they are in timeline B, he states that going forward in time would result in 2010B, and so you've got to go back to 1955 just as timeline B is beginning to diverge to remove the catalyst. So, going back from 1985B, you end up in 1955-proto-B.

I understand what you were going for, now. Thing is, you can't exactly follow any one person's timestream, you can only follow the time machine. And in that case, the issue isn't that it took Marty and Doc back to 1985-A, the issue is that it took Biff forward to 2015 Prime in the first place. It should have taken him to 2015-A, by Doc's very logic, so Marty and Doc couldn't have gotten the time machine back at all if the timelines were really split like that.

Although that does fit pretty well with the "there's only one timeline" theory, it also fits with your "when it's convenient" theory

(oh hey, that was brought up earlier in the thread. context has changed, though)

Also pretty interesting is the fact that Doc felt comfortable enough to leave Jennifer in 1985-A, believing (apparently correctly) that the world would "change around her." It's made clear that Marty-A and Doc-A are far away and unable to interfere, but no real mention is made of Jennifer-A. Her dad's car from the first movie is at the house, suggesting that it's still her house, so how weird would that be if her alternate self or alternate dad found her out there. Strange that Doc didn't even bring that up given how worried he was about her meeting her future self, but I guess he just figured that the problem would either resolve itself when they restored the timeline, or just wouldn't matter at all if they failed

[Sinaz20]

Originally Posted by LuigiHann

<snip>

Also pretty interesting is the fact that Doc felt comfortable enough to leave Jennifer in 1985-A, believing (apparently correctly) that the world would "change around her." It's made clear that Marty-A and Doc-A are far away and unable to interfere, but no real mention is made of Jennifer-A. Her dad's car from the first movie is at the house, suggesting that it's still her house, so how weird would that be if her alternate self or alternate dad found her out there. Strange that Doc didn't even bring that up given how worried he was about her meeting her future self, but I guess he just figured that the problem would either resolve itself when they restored the timeline, or just wouldn't matter at all if they failed

I know! The more you argue it, the more you find inconsistencies. This is our daily chore. :P

Also, yeah-- I meant 2015. I've got 2010 on the brain because... well... it is 2010 right now.

[StevenMcFlyJr]

@ LuigiHann:

Also, in a deleted scene, it was shown that Old Biff seemed to collapse and then vanish after getting out of the time machine, because his changed past resulted in his death sometime before 2015, so his old self was erased from existence... but the scene was removed because it was confusing.

How you figure it's confusing? Taking that OUT & not leaving it in IS te confusing part. Dangeresque made a point ... and, had they left that in the movie, a lot LESS people would have been scratching their heads walking out of a theater years ago & still today. LOL

[LuigiHann]

Originally Posted by StevenMcFlyJr

@ LuigiHann:

How you figure it's confusing? Taking that OUT & not leaving it in IS te confusing part. Dangeresque made a point ... and, had they left that in the movie, a lot LESS people would have been scratching their heads walking out of a theater years ago & still today. LOL

I didn't decide that it was confusing, the producers and test audiences apparently did.

[Sp1ke]

Just one stupid question... does the Doc from BTTF 1 (the one who gets shot by the lybians and wears the bulletproff vest) already knows that he'll be end up in 1885 and that he was going to build a new time machine? (the train, of course)

[thesporkman]

Originally Posted by Sp1ke

Just one stupid question... does the Doc from BTTF 1 (the one who gets shot by the lybians and wears the bulletproff vest) already knows that he'll be end up in 1885 and that he was going to build a new time machine? (the train, of course)

No, he wouldn't know, because Doc and Marty (and Old Biff) haven't gone back to 1955 a second time yet.

[Strayth]

I'm not sure it's a huge inconsistency or not, so I'm asking here, among fans .

Doc states, when they're in hell-1985, that while there are several alternate timelines, they can only go in the past, or the future, of the one they are in.

He states that going "back to the future" while being in hell-1985 would lead them to hell-future, and not the one they visited earlier, where Biff got the almanac.

So, how is it even possible that Biff went to the past, gave himself the almanac (which creates the new timeline, "hell") and then COMES BACK to the original future ?

Also, what a dumb person, obviously I wouldn't have cared about giving back the only thing that could stop my evil plan to the only people that could ever stop me, but hey ;D .

[Udvarnoky]

Originally Posted by Strayth

So, how is it even possible that Biff went to the past, gave himself the almanac (which creates the new timeline, "hell") and then COMES BACK to the original future ?

Whatever ramifications caused by Biff's actions that spilled into the year 2015 wouldn't necessarily be noticeable, at least not in such a way that a movie with BTTF's tone and running time restrictions could have realistically conveyed to the audience. And even if Biff giving the almanac to himself in 1985 did make Hill Valley 2015 a significantly different place visually than it was when Marty and Doc first saw it, they would never have noticed it because the timeline would have changed around them and they would only have memory of the new timeline (as Doc explains when Marty protests leaving Jennifer and Einstein behind when they realize they have to go back to 1955). Obviously, it doesn't all add up under close scrutiny, but it works in a movie logic kind of way.

The movie did address the alteration of the 2015 timeline in a deleted scene where Biff fades out of existence. In the final cut, Biff is seen collapsing in pain shortly after returning to 2015 in the Delorean. Originally, this went on a bit longer, showing Biff literally disappearing the same way Marty almost did in BTTF1. The reason was because he'd returned to a future where he didn't exist anymore, because in the timeline where he is rich and powerful, he ends up getting shot (as speculated by Bob Gale) by Lorraine in the 90s.

[Strayth]

The movie did address the alteration of the 2015 timeline in a deleted scene where Biff fades out of existence. In the final cut, Biff is seen collapsing in pain shortly after returning to 2015 in the Delorean. Originally, this went on a bit longer, showing Biff literally disappearing the same way Marty almost did in BTTF1. The reason was because he'd returned to a future where he didn't exist anymore, because in the timeline where he is rich and powerful, he ends up getting shot (as speculated by Bob Gale) by Lorraine in the 90s.

Wow I had no idea! Thank you. It's great stuff !

Whatever ramifications caused by Biff's actions that spilled into the year 2015 wouldn't necessarily be noticeable, at least not in such a way that a movie with BTTF's tone and running time restrictions could have realistically conveyed to the audience. And even if Biff giving the almanac to himself in 1985 did make Hill Valley 2015 a significantly different place visually than it was when Marty and Doc first saw it, they would never have noticed it because the timeline would have changed around them and they would only have memory of the new timeline (as Doc explains when Marty protests leaving Jennifer and Einstein behind when they realize they have to go back to 1955). Obviously, it doesn't all add up under close scrutiny, but it works in a movie logic kind of way.

It's not really possible they couldn't notice change. If they didn't notice the future changed, that means they had knowledge of what happened in the new past too. If the future becomes their reality that means the past of this future also his (in my opinion). If, for exemple, they don't notice in the future that, Biff is all mighty, why would they in the past?

The only thing possible is, as you said, that they didn't see anything different, not that they couldn't. And that's actually a good explanation, since the second they got Jenifer out, Biff came back. They couldn't see if George was dead or something.


And now that you mention it, since Biff was affected by the changes, shouldn't Marty and Doc change too ?


As for Jennifer, I'm not really sure about that but... Letting her in an alternate timeline and going back to the past to change it...

Does that mean there aren't alternate timelines but only ONE timeline and no matter what if something changes it replaces everything ... ? O_o

They can only travel to one timeline but I wouldn't say the others just get erased or whatever ...

Now what's weird, is that if Jennifer is affected by changes in the past, why aren't Marty and Doc when Biff changed it ?

Their past selves had pretty different lives (and probably never time travelled).

We know that a past self affects the future self... So we have to guess that the past Marty and Doc aren't the real Marty and Doc but the ones from another reality, but doesn't that mean Marty also created an alternate timeline in the first movie, and didn't really go back to his ?

[duelistjt]

What puzzles me about this is that if Biff was all powerful or dead in the future, he wouldn't go back in time to give the almanac to his younger self. If his younger self didn't get the book, then wouldn't time correct itself or possibly cause a paradox?