Telltale Games

Falanca · 09/02/2010, 10:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakushun

None of those are very funny either. I don't think 'overuse of gun' even counts as a joke at all.

You basically didn't try to threaten Frankie the Rat multiple times. There are such jokes hidden.

I don't also count that as having a sophisticated sense of humor if you don't find those bits funny, fyi. Sam and Max franchise is alive and kicking mainly thanks to its humor and entertainment factor and Telltale has never been put it in disregard. However, it's your loss if you expect an apology or something like that just because they tried to add something more than humor. Even the best comedy series add some stuff to be interesting, artsy, or even just for the sake of doing a different thing. What Telltale has done is just that, and I appreciate. If you can't see those, I'm really sorry, but I just pity.

Rakushun · 09/02/2010, 10:22 am

Calm down kiddo. It's not like my life is ruined because I didn't enjoy that part. You don't need to 'pity' me.

Hassat Hunter · 09/02/2010, 11:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pantagruel's Friend

No - and even, for me, "totally serious" and "genuinely serious" aren't the same. I'm not native English, so I may be wrong about the subtleties, but for me, only "totally", "completely" or "utterly" serious is without any humour.

Your terminology confuses me. I am genuinely confused. Or was it somewhat? I always confuse these 2

.

HappyCoincidence · 09/02/2010, 04:44 pm

Pastiche - n. - a literary, musical, or artistic piece consisting wholly or chiefly of motifs or techniques borrowed from one or more sources.
Rocky Raccoon by the Beatles isn't straight up funny, but it is a style parody of rambling American tall tales and the anti-heroes that populate them. Likewise, there were moments in Sam & Max that transcended the black-and-white of it has to be either funny or serious. Setting mood is another goal for writers to achieve. There are films that are neither dramas nor comedies, we call them noir. Certainly you'll allow Telltale to create a few scenes that fall into this category.

Pantagruel's Friend · 09/03/2010, 02:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Your terminology confuses me. I am genuinely confused. Or was it somewhat? I always confuse these 2

.

I think it's safest to leave this at that. Before you get irreversibly confused

Falanca · 09/03/2010, 02:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rakushun

Calm down kiddo. It's not like my life is ruined because I didn't enjoy that part. You don't need to 'pity' me.

I pity because you weren't able to get the maximum fun out of the composition of such elements mainly because of your distinct view. All about empathy, I wouldn't really like to see it in your eyes, that is why I used that word.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyCoincidence

Pastiche - n. - a literary, musical, or artistic piece consisting wholly or chiefly of motifs or techniques borrowed from one or more sources.
Rocky Raccoon by the Beatles isn't straight up funny, but it is a style parody of rambling American tall tales and the anti-heroes that populate them. Likewise, there were moments in Sam & Max that transcended the black-and-white of it has to be either funny or serious. Setting mood is another goal for writers to achieve. There are films that are neither dramas nor comedies, we call them noir. Certainly you'll allow Telltale to create a few scenes that fall into this category.

That's a very good explanation.

feverfew · 09/03/2010, 07:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake

The time machine was built to travel to anyones birthday. Maybe Season One Max was able to somehow use it to travel to his day of death instead, and found Sam there. I just made that up, but its probably what happened.

Sorry Jake, but it still doesn't make me like the ending

Voodoo Cannonball · 09/03/2010, 11:43 pm

TTG, I really enjoy your work, however I don't normally stop by here to tell you how much.
Having just finished 305, I have got to tip my hat to you guys. It just continues to be a smooth upwards progression in the quality of your product.
I was really blown away by ToMI and didn't really think that S&M S3 would exceed it, but I have to say that I think it left it for dead! Absolutely amazing - interesting characters, intriguing gameplay (loved the movie reel thing in ep 2 and the noir bit of ep 3) not to mention the brilliantly quirky (and tear jerking at times) story.
Bravo.
The only problem you guys have now is that you have to top it! Good luck and thank you for some of my favourite games of all time

Breakman · 09/05/2010, 04:12 pm

There's no doubt, I'm going to be burnt to the stake for my opinion. I may be the only person who would outright say that I don't like, borderline hate, Season 3. Sure, there were many good points to this season, but there were too many bad ones that stuck out. Everyone is raving about it and it boggles my mind. (I guess this is how the people who hate the cartoon feels.)

So here’s my very general review of Season 3. Let's start with the characters…

Flint Paper
In Season Two, I hoped and prayed that he wasn't featured or spoke too much. I love the character but the mystery and untouchable/unapproachable nature of him was what made him awesome. He was like the cool kid on the playground everyone wanted to be friends with but too intimated to talk to. Season Two kind of kept that mystery. He did have more screen time than I hoped, he was always portrayed as a guy who, though with a round-a-bout way, able to take care of and solve cases himself. In Season Three, he started acting a little goofy and incompetent, especially in 304. It was saddening to me where his character was going.

Bosco
Turned into a male stripper in Vegas with a cover-up story to his mom that he got married? Geez, joke or not, that's a pretty hateful way to write a character out...

Sal
I actually have mixed feelings about him. On one hand, he is a very lovable character. He's a rather mellow, helpful, and, at the same time, "just-doing-my-job-and-doing-it-well" guy. I can't see him getting angry about anything and there were many instances that he doesn't want to be involved with any illegal activity. On the other hand, he doesn't belong in the Sam & Max universe. I can't think of any main or supporting character that is totally innocent or non-offensive to Sam or Max. He mentions he apparently has a checkered past in 305. I guess that's a plus... but still, he's way too squeaky clean. Also, whenever I hear the name “Sal”, I think of Sal Manella…

The Mole People and the Elves (I'll just group them all up since there are too many characters)
Okay, the new Elves were not very important other than for a couple of puzzles. So I'm not too disappointed with them. It's the Mole People I have a problem with. They get introduced, used for one or two episodes (depending on the mole person), then totally ignored in 305 (passing name mentions doesn't really count). It would have made sense to at least have one of them to make a cameo in 305 since they seem to know a lot about the Apocalypse and Elder Gods. I can't really see where they can be used again in future episodes (other than Harry) since they were pretty tied to this season. I liked Nefertiti (annoying but odd in a good way), Obadiah, and Jebediah (I liked how they played off each other, almost "Tweedledee and Tweedledum" like). Seems like a waste...

Max
Overall, Max is Max and I’m glad he didn’t change all that much in Season 3. But he did have a few odd moments that seemed a bit uncharacteristic. A big one was the microwave comment in 304 (it would be exactly what Max would do but probably not with leftovers…). I also don’t understand his sudden love for corndogs. If anyone was probably addicted to them, it would be Sam since he’s been seen eating or holding them in the past (going by the comics and cartoon). I guess it was just another sexual innuendo needed to be put across in this season.

Sam
Quite frankly, and this has been slowly noticeable since Season 1, he's been getting more soft and emotional. Just like Max in Season 3, I found him saying and doing things uncharacteristic. This is not the same Sam who would willing put his buddy in danger to solve puzzles in the comics and Hit the Road. Season 1 had him shooting at Max playfully, throwing him, making him eat an object (and forcing him to throw it up), etc. I didn’t and can't see him doing anything negative to Max in Season 3 (other than the preset "if you get too close, I'll hit you" if the player is walking around with Max).

Also, many sexual and innuendo jokes were surprisingly coming more from Sam than Max (can’t have enough since they are much funnier in bulk apparently). When seeing the season as a whole, I felt these weren't meant to be interpreted as jokes this time around unlike other incarnations and seasons. They were more like inner thoughts mistakenly said out loud. Coupled with the endings of 301 and 305, this all points to Sam being gay (at least in the Telltale games). I’m sorry, this is not at all how I interpret Sam in his previous incarnations or even in previous seasons. But the forced associations and hints in this season made it feel that is the conclusion or at least tried to strongly imply this. Similar to my beef with TTG’s Flint Paper, this should have been a mystery as it always was in the past and open to interpretation for the fans.

There’s another point I hated about Season 3’s Sam which I would later point out when I’m talking about the endings.

The Desoto
Oh, what happened to you, Dear Desoto? This season was relatively good to you. You were able to get to some interesting places and you brought the wonderful Map back from the grave. Why were you mutilated in 305? Seriously? I guess (and hope) you will join your sisters in the scrapheap...

To breakup the negativity, I've got some positive reviews on other characters.

Mama Bosco
She turned totally awesome. I always have a soft spot for female inventors and she doesn't show much hostility towards Sam and Max as most characters are. (Though I think her change in opinion started back in 205...) I liked that she was bald in 304 (though I still don’t know why she got a dress than just underwear when she was freshly cloned). She could kick some serious butt if she wanted to, which was a great addiction to her character, and had a right amount of sass.

Anton Papierwaite and Yog-Soggoth
As separate characters, I didn't like them at first. Yog-Soggoth, a disembodied voice telling Max what to do, seemed like a pompous jerk. Anton was a jerk (in more ways than one) and a wimp. It was in 304 and 305 I started to appreciate these characters. When they were literally put together, I liked their interactions with each other (like Obadiah and Jebediah's). Yog-Soggoth became more likable as he was constantly criticizing/commenting on his host and seemed to genuinely want to help save Earth in 305. He was an interesting father-like character. Anton was still a wimp but he became comical with Yog-Soggoth's jabs at him and his comments and actions in 305 (one being my favorite from the very beginning “Those fools! Why did they insist on running that independent film festival?”)

Now to other elements of the season…

I admit, the many references to the previous seasons and Lucas Arts game made me giddy. But these felt tacked on to make the season feel familiar. It's similar to what Sega is trying to do with Sonic. (Oh, so Sonic remembers he loves chili dogs now?) Throw as many references into a “revitalized” game so people can get distracted from what they did to the characters. Where were all these references in the previous seasons? A few repeated ones in the office and a couple somewhere every other episode if lucky. Why? Because these seasons didn’t need to constantly remind the fans previous stories or illustrations.

What really bothered me about this season is the major emotional factor. If a Sam & Max story makes you cry, then something is wrong. There were too many moments where I didn't know whether to "take a moment" or laugh at the over depressive situations in a game that is suppose to be a “sitcom“. (The first time I saw and heard the ending of 305, I would have betted the song in the background would be this song. Which was why I was laughing wryly as he was walking alone.) Their stories shouldn't be taken seriously. That doesn't mean to say there aren't some serious moments in, say, the comics. But they weren't stretched out episodes at a time nor was there really any permanent consequences for Sam's or Max's actions (or any that effects them directly or cared about).

The ending was a nail in the coffin since there is not one, but two endings. This is not a good ending for a game series that is planning on making new seasons in the future. (Megaman X5 is a good example.) Not only does it confuses the fans, but shows the indecisiveness of the writing team. The only good reason to have multiple endings would be if it was the final game or one-shot games. Plus, in this particular series, I don’t think it shows Sam in a good light. Let's say Max Alternative didn't come and if Sam was able to, he would attach himself to any Max of past or future? The main theme of this season was people change for the better or worse. Maxes of the Past, Future, or even Max Alt are not his Max and especially since they never experienced ultimate sacrifice. I really wanted Sam Prime to commit suicide and have the Alternative Sam and Max from 102 come in their time machine. Then we would have to play as the Alternatives. That would have closed the story for the Primes (and not make Sam Prime seem so... superficial) and have a clean start with the “new” Sam and Max.

I do have to say, this is one beautiful game. (Too bad I couldn’t run it at full graphics.) The added textures, the shine, mist/smoke, and glow effects where nice icings on the cake. The character models and environments were well-done and impressive. My favorite room is The Cloning Chamber as it really did a wonderful job of showing space and depth. and my favorite model as the top of his hat shifts as he walks. The facial and action animations are by leaps and bounds over Season 2 and Season 1 hands down. I forgot what scene it was, but there was a time where Max was trying to keep his anger down by a twitching smile. Or how about the many times Sam used his eyebrows? Awesome sauce right there.

As much as I love the graphics, I don't understand why there was a grain filter in this season (other than for 302 as it was perfect for that episode). It certainly didn't make me feel like I "was in control" as The Narrator put it. To me, it made me feel the opposite, like I was watching a dream or movie. Not to mention, some people had a hard time loading the game with the added aesthetic. We were able to remove other added visuals (glow and extra textures), but not the grain filter? Very odd.

Everyone seems to love the music in this season. The only songs that stuck out for me were the intro/outro and the final boss puzzles in 304. I vaguely remember the theater music in 302. Other than that, I can’t see myself listening to this soundtrack since nothing is very memorable. I loved the soundtracks of Season 1 and 2 since they had many varied music styles (though most songs were strong with jazz, which is a good point to me). I also stress, the previous seasons had lyrical music! It really showed off how talented Jared Emerson-Johnson is (making me forget Peter McConnell, for shame on me!).

So that ends my short essay about Season 3. It was all beauty, but strayed too far from the original. I haven't been this disappointed since the last season of 'Ed Edd n Eddy' (which I think suffer similar faults). On a personal note, it really hurt me as I can’t stop thinking how disappointing it was and it just added to life’s problems I had to go though last month. (When it rains, it pours. It’s never just a mildly cloudy with light showers…) I really wanted to get this off my chest (and I hope it would release some pressure off me), so I wrote this. Sorry if I rambled a lot and thank anyone who actually read it...

You can now give me my D- and "See me after class" note.

xbskid · 09/05/2010, 06:59 pm

Did anyone notice Dr. Norrington's Exotic Pet License Number?

Gohaku · 09/05/2010, 10:47 pm

The writing this season seems to have taken a new course and dabbled in drama, am I right? Well I loved it! Just a few questions regarding the plot.
Why not 6 episodes like season one?
And did you all expect the ending to happen the way it did? I mean was there a plan for the paradoxical clones?

Hassat Hunter · 09/06/2010, 04:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakman

Where were all these references in the previous seasons? A few repeated ones in the office and a couple somewhere every other episode if lucky. Why? Because these seasons didn’t need to constantly remind the fans previous stories or illustrations.

They did that though to actually get closer to the comics and series, dirtying the streets and such unlike the cleanliness it was in the first 2 seasons.
The ones before were more individual sitcom episodes like you say (the series doesn't do this either after all).

Cheri · 09/06/2010, 09:47 am

Breakman, how does caring about your best friend being in trouble and/or possibly dying make you gay? I just don't get that train of thought.

Falanca · 09/06/2010, 10:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakman

There's no doubt, I'm going to be burnt to the stak...

Generally I disagree with you. You have some good points, yes, but I felt like you are kind of nitpicking and/or talking about only one scene/aspect of the game as if it's seen constantly in the game.

Flint Paper wasn't made fun of, or anything similar. Actually, his character was portrayed far more badass than his apparence in Season 2. It's most apparent in 305. He solved the case of Stinkies just by himself, and pummeled a bunch of gorilla clones one by one. And in other episodes where he is in, he's shown to be a kickass detective (people giving him jobs, him teaching Sam about interrogation, etc). Remember the first scene of 204, where Flint admits the only thing he knows about being a detective is waving his gun around? Okay, THAT was downplaying the character.

Max didn't just develop a sudden love for corn dogs. He always had a love for snack food, and it's a fact that snacks + meat in them = awesome. It still fits the character, and we know that his hunger is rivaling Sam's (he had his gluttony vice in Season 1, backed up with various other important aspects of the character such as shooting everything in sight and being a couch potato). If you check personal bios of characters, Sam has more of a sweettooth so he'd go for Fudgie Freezes instead of corndogs. Wait, he DID go for fudgie freezes! Oh and. Corn dog =/= sexual innuendo. You're pushing it.

Using Max for puzzles... Well, sorry. Max's psychic powers were handy enough to put anyone in danger. It wasn't a necessity. Sure, Sam and Max shouldn't have an ethical code for this situations, but for the record Max either had many dangers behind him, or he was, like, already turned into a giant monster. For the record, we did electrocute giant Max. You don't count that? We also did turn Maximus into a cow bunch of times.

I still think the sexual jokes are distributed between characters equally, but if you think it like that, I believe it's mainly because Sam had more lines than Max in the episode, since Max was nearly absent from the game for one episode and a half, if you don't count 8-10 lines. Sam had more jokes than Max in total, not only the sexual ones.

Sam being gay... Er, I don't get it. People making sex jokes are gay? Cracking a sexual joke near your best friend is gay? Pal, Max hinted the possibility of being the parents of both of their young selves in Season 2. Compared to THAT, I couldn't catch anything hinting it.

How was Desoto mutilated? She (Desoto is a she, right?) only got some temprorary changes in order to be able to cruise in Max's innards. I wouldn't say he was MUTILATED. And for some reason people are saying that he got blown up in Max. He did not. He was sneezed out with the rest of Max's rescue team.

Don't dare saying that Telltale treats Sam and Max how Sonic Team treats Sonic. It's a cold insult which isn't true at all. References are made in previous seasons as the BASE STRUCTURE of the series, because they were just fresh sequels of Hit the Road. Look at season 1: Apart from the new storyline, the whole game was a reference to Hit the Road. It was still good, fresh, series didn't have that anxiety back then. Now creators know that they should bring the new stuff, and they didn't disappoint by delivering it. Well, at least I wasn't disappointed at ALL. I'm sorry you feel this way.

If a Sam & Max story makes you both laugh, cry, think and empathize, all with balanced timing, it only means it's created by human beings that hold some creativity. As for the musics, I guess the storyline and the scenery was too action packed you weren't really able to appreciate the good timing and composition of the music of this season. It was splendid, fitting EVERY character and EVERY location, all different but the same inside, and in the end a great full circle, entertaining our ears as the game entertaining our brains and visuals entertaining our eyes.

I'm sorry, I know that I've been a little too RAGEOUS to the people on forums that leave negative feedback, I should respect opinions more. It's just that, I don't think this season deserves most of those words.

Pantagruel's Friend · 09/06/2010, 10:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakman

(long post on Season 3)

Well... That was a massive post. Funny thing, I agree with 80% of what you said (I'll mark some exceptions), and I love Season 3. Well... Priorities may differ, huh?

A few important points where I don't agree:

I think Sam and Max acted pretty much consistently in character, with one exception to note ("Save Sybil"). The more serious tone of the game was a bit of a challenge, but I grew to like it, and you can't say that all the seriousness didn't happen in a horrible convoluted manner, true to the best traditions of S&M.
About Sam: one big difference in this season was that Sam was actually exposed to getting on without Max - this didn't really happen earlier. From the results, I'd rather say it looks like a massive co-dependency (see my sig), and not a sign of being homosexual. Not explicitly, at least
The endings: well, were they really that different? Season 4 can go anywhere from any of the two endings. I don't see an issue here. What I don't understand actually is why people putting so much emphasis on prime and alternate versions of Sam and Max.
The music. There were fewer "hit songs" in 301 than in the previous episodes, and even less in the subsequent ones. However, when you replay the episodes, and focus more on the environment than on the story, it really starts to shine. Give the music more chance - it may not stand alone that well as the soundtrack of the previous seasons, but together with the visuals and the events of the games, it's really really awesome.

That's it - as I said, I almost invariable agree with the other stuff you've written, save a few minor details here and there. I don't think those are such a great deal, though, and I'm a bit surprised that these ruined the season for you (it's easier to understand when people complain about the lack of difficulty), probably it's worth to give the episodes a replay chance?

JedExodus · 09/07/2010, 06:54 am

I can't believe Breakman picked Momma Bosco as a positive, Momma Bosco was terrible!! Her techno jibber jabber really really started to grate on me, by the time they finally cracked a joke about it, it was too late, the damage had been done

. She's really just there to tell Sam & Max what to do with one of her craaaazzzyyeeee inventions.

Basically The Geek, but old, and black, and kinda dead

Gohaku · 09/07/2010, 08:41 am

@ Breakman and @ Falanca
Lol at the innuendo subject. Max got quite a few jokes himself. If I recall his third favorite thing to do to things is touch them. Second is licking. I laughed so hard at that line.

Breakman · 09/07/2010, 03:12 pm

Thanks to you all for commenting on my review. As weird as it sounds, I want to be proven wrong with some of my points. Since I have no one to talk about Sam & Max offline, I depend on you guys to help me figure all this out…

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

They did that though to actually get closer to the comics and series, dirtying the streets and such unlike the cleanliness it was in the first 2 seasons.

I forgot to mention that attention to detail on the environments (I vaguely touched upon it). I absolutely loved that the background was “alive” and detailed. The scurrying rats and chilling pigeons hanging around the streets, the crawling scorpions, the flaming torches, the glowing jukebox and fish tank, and etc… I loved it all!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheri

Breakman, how does caring about your best friend being in trouble and/or possibly dying make you gay? I just don't get that train of thought.

You are correct. Just that doesn’t. It looks like so when considering parts and comments scattered around the season. Here’s a quick list of my “evidence” (there’s probably more but these are the obvious ones that comes to mind right now):

Remember the list of questions The Narrator asked at the end of 301 ? All the questions were answered clearly except for the “true love” part. Throughout the season, there was no love interests, infatuation, crushes, attractions, or slight interest in anyone (though he seems a bit impressed with Mama Bosco in 304). So who’s the only person that he cares anything about? Odd choice of phrase for just best friends.

The ring thought in 301.

In 305, finding an egg inside Max, watching it hatch, and the roach call you “Daddy” was odd. Kinda reminded me of That Darn Gator.

In 305, Sam commenting on the Fitness Max’s fit physique and wondering if it would be disturbing for him to ask him to turn around. (I believe you can get this dialog after Sybil leaves the room, somewhere in middle end of the episode.)

The ending of 305 doesn’t really imply anything (other than I really thought Sam was going to kill himself). It only failed to be the last chance of answering the “true love” question if it wasn‘t Max.

Of course, there’s plenty other things that can go either way from passing jokes to hinting something (such as the jump cables comment in 301) . And, surprisingly, I didn’t find 303 all that suggestive. Obsessive, yes. In love, no. ::shrugs::

Quote: