Multiple Paths through the game?

[TechnoGoth]

Should Back to the Future games bring back the adventure game idea of multiple solutions and multiple paths through the game? A lot of the old Lucas arts games like the Indian Jones series had several ways to solve puzzles and even multiple routes through the game. Don't you think the tell tale games could benefit from this?

[Hassat Hunter]

I quote myself from another post (since I am too lazy to type it again now):

So, multiple solutions to problems, and then which you take has influence in later episodes?

While that's a great idea, it would require having to keep savegames for said data (some apparently seem to uninstall episodes after completing them), and would complicate matters for people who did not play the episodes before that.
I guess they could use a system that would randomly pick one of the solutions if these conditions are not met or there is a "canon" version though.

[corruptbiggins]

I don't think multiple paths would work in an episodic series, or at least it would take too much work to get it to work compared to the relative gains.

I suppose it would be possible to create multiple paths that are contained to a single episode so that the start & end points would be the same for everyone but the journey could be different.

[TechnoGoth]

For ease it would make sense that the different paths would be contained within a single episode.

For instance let's say the game gave you 2 standard approaches to the main puzzles in the episodes
- Wise Cracking
- Creative

So you are given the problem of like. Biff has stolen the Deloren and locked it in a warehouse, and is currently standing guard.
- Wise Cracking approach - After first retrieving your trade mark skateboard you confront Biff. Then Using a variety of carefully chooses insults you get him to chase you leading to an skateboard chase mini game that inevitable results in Biff crashing into a manure truck.
- Creative approach - Using your knowledge of pop culture, quick thinking, and a collection of seemingly random items you manage to obtain a spare key to the warehouse and lure Biff away long enough to steal back the Deloren.

Ideally episodes allowing you to import a pervious save game that alters some events or aspects of the current episode. Maybe giving you an extra item that can help you solve a certain puzzle, or simply changing some events subtly.

[Strayth]

Or not.

Why would puzzle solving should change anything in the next episodes ?

You obtain the same result. So the episodes will just take taht into consideration.

[tredlow]

Originally Posted by Strayth

Or not.

Why would puzzle solving should change anything in the next episodes ?

You obtain the same result. So the episodes will just take taht into consideration.

ditto

[Hassat Hunter]

Say; Ep 1 is in 1990.

You solve puzzle #1. Solution 1 is kicking in a window. Solution 2 is luring someone away with a false call.

Cue Ep 2. 1998.
Solution 1 caused a break-in, deal with the consequences, which stole the item you needed to solve a current puzzle.
In solution 2 your mother suddenly fell in love with the wrong guy (think BTTF1). Paradox. Fix it.

As such not even episodes are replayable, but the entire season. Works better for a full game, but it could work fine for episodic too. Thinking not is just shortminded, and less awesome .

[russell19831983]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

Say; Ep 1 is in 1990.

You solve puzzle #1. Solution 1 is kicking in a window. Solution 2 is luring someone away with a false call.

Cue Ep 2. 1998.
Solution 1 caused a break-in, deal with the consequences, which stole the item you needed to solve a current puzzle.
In solution 2 your mother suddenly fell in love with the wrong guy (think BTTF1). Paradox. Fix it.

As such not even episodes are replayable, but the entire season. Works better for a full game, but it could work fine for episodic too. Thinking not is just shortminded, and less awesome .

I was thinking that, have a problem solved 2 different ways then it would have an alternate ending, then the next episode asks you what option you chose, that would make the games different depending on what you chose in the first one. Also who in their right mind would play the second episode first, i say tough if they don't know what option to choose, just play the first one first and problem is solved.

[Cyrus7]

I certainly hope they would use this idea. Not many adventure games have this, so it would be terrific to include multiple solutions in BTTF.

[Xavian]

While it sounds good on paper, one of the reasons I've seen stated in the past why many of the programmers don't favor this approach is because it means putting a lot of work in to content that only a fraction of the players are going to see. Let's say there's three ways to get past a puzzle. And one approach gets 55% of players, one gets 30% and the last only gets 15%. That last way through is hardly worth the work to program. If people want multiple playthroughs, there's some advantage, but historically adventure games have a very low replay value. Even in those Indiana Jones games mentioned, very few people replayed them just to solve the puzzles in a different way.

The programmers have stated they'd rather not divide things in such a way that they're making content that a significant portion of their audience is guaranteed to never see, and choices that may be out of character (Would Marty really approach the situation with solution B? or solution C? or is solution A clearly most in character for him?) and instead put that effort into making more content that reaches the majority of players in a logical manner.

Would you rather play a 4-hour game with an hour's worth of content that varies, or a coherently plotted 5-6 hour game?

[Hassat Hunter]

RPG's have done that for years.

And guess what; the linear non-choice shooters take 5 hours, while they still take 20+ hours.

[Xavian]

that's RPGs. not adventure games. RPGs are about letting you tailor a character to your own preferences, so multiple paths are preferable.

Adventure games are not about character customization. They're about puzzle solving and while there may be many ways to solve a puzzle there's usually only one best/funniest/most interesting way to do it. Why bother with the rest?

If the game has multiple paths, then great. I'm only trying to list the reasons I've seen programmers from Telltale state in the past why we're not likely to see it. And it's not a dumb reason. Do you want them to work on more content you probably won't see or content you probably will?

[jp-30]

Multiple puzzle solutions would be fine, but I can't see the point in multiple paths to be honest. Telling multiple stories at once seems to me to be a waste of resources.

And they would need to all resolve and re-integrate by the end of each episode, as there are logistical issues in reading savegame data on consoles from the previous episode.

[Hassat Hunter]

Mass Effect can do it.

@ Xavian; so why not Adventure games? Isn't "lack of replayability" because it's always the same one of the big cons of the genre. How are you going to alter that if it stays on it's pre-defined path of 'one puzzle, one solution'?

Like said, RPG's do it since, well, forever. Adventure games can really benefit from this too.

[leon101]

It would be interesting for some (not me). It would just take more time to put together. Since more ideas are needed. In an episodic adventure series, where it couldn't carry over into the next (with out confusion) would be pointless though.

Why would I go back and solve the puzzle a different way, I already would have completed the story, time to move on. Heck, I don't even replay any RPGs that do stuff like that. When I beat a game, I want to move on.

[doggans]

Originally Posted by jp-30

I can't see the point in multiple paths to be honest. Telling multiple stories at once seems to me to be a waste of resources.

So, King's Quest 6, Fate of Atlantis, (arguably) Last Crusade, Maniac Mansion...all wastes of resources?

I agree there are several reasons it wouldn't work in an episodic game, but for adventure games in general, I think multiple story paths not only adds replayability, but added value for different player levels. Someone a little less comfortable with adventure games can complete the story from the "easiest" path, and someone who wants to dig a little deeper can get a more complex story.

I understand why more adventure game designers don't do it--it's a LOT of hard work--but I always get excited when I realize there were multiple story options in an adventure game.

[jp-30]

I meant a waste of resources in an 2-3 hour episodic game.

[Xavian]

Originally Posted by Hassat Hunter

@ Xavian; so why not Adventure games? Isn't "lack of replayability" because it's always the same one of the big cons of the genre. How are you going to alter that if it stays on it's pre-defined path of 'one puzzle, one solution'?

I'm not sure you can alter it. My point is that it works well with RPGs. In RPGs, you have the potential to create different kinds of characters with different advantages, disadvantages and possibly different philosophies. There it might make sense to let you bypass a dangerous situation by attacking, talking your way out of it, or sneaking past it. That's great for an RPG.

But in an adventure game, not so much. Will people go back and replay it JUST to see the alternate solutions? Die-hard gamers, certainly. They're the same people who will probably replay it just to see dialogue choices they didn't click. But the casual gamer? Not nearly as likely.

Someone mentioned the Indiana Jones games having multiple solutions. That's great. But are all the solutions really something Indiana Jones would do? Did they all really feel like something you'd see in the movies? Some of them yes, others probably not.

There's no point in offering us multiple ways to bypass a puzzle if one or more of those ways doesn't feel like something Marty would do or if it wouldn't belong in the movie. If there's only one clear obvious approach that's suitable for Marty McFly, then I'm fine if the programmers want to focus their attention on that. And if having less alternate paths means more puzzles/more content in the main linear path, then that's fine with me too.

Before we worry about a game that's entertaining to replay, let's remember the important thing is to make a game that's entertaining to play.

[doggans]

Originally Posted by jp-30

I meant a waste of resources in an 2-3 hour episodic game.

Well, in that case, I agree.

Originally Posted by Xavian

But in an adventure game, not so much. Will people go back and replay it JUST to see the alternate solutions? Die-hard gamers, certainly. They're the same people who will probably replay it just to see dialogue choices they didn't click. But the casual gamer? Not nearly as likely.

But that's okay; replay value isn't the only reason to have multiple solutions/storylines. Multiple solutions are great for gamers with different levels of experience/different ways of thinking, and having those solutions have different consequences just makes the story and the world deeper. And while the effort required to make that happen will be lost on a lot of people, the effort behind EVERY aspect of any piece of entertainment is lost on most people. :P

Originally Posted by Xavian

Someone mentioned the Indiana Jones games having multiple solutions. That's great. But are all the solutions really something Indiana Jones would do? Did they all really feel like something you'd see in the movies? Some of them yes, others probably not.

It's been a long time since I've last played them, but I don't remember any solutions sticking out in my mind as un-Indy-like. Of course, maybe I just never found those particular solutions. :P

[Hassat Hunter]

Meh, I disagree.

Who cares if casual players only play a game once? Are we going to let our games suffer in name of pseudo-gamers?
I don't mind them, but if my games are molested to make it friendly for them, and hence unfun for me, I really don't want it anymore.

TTG already makes most games unable to get 100% of all content in a single playthrough. According to your philosophy they should throw these side-gags away for something that everyone get to experience? How would it be different with this, except the effort is spend on something else than merely a gag (think the excellent golden pantaloons scene in 304)?

Episodic might even make it easier and better to do this, cause if you want to change something in ep #3 you don't HAVE to do #1 and #2 too, unlike full games, to get a new savegame with the changes you wish for.

Stagnation is devolution...