Telltale Games

wilco64256 · 03/14/2011, 02:07 pm

I keep seeing comments from Telltale about how they use the model they do for games to keep from alienating players, but the more I see that concept the more I wonder about it. It seems that the more effort you put into "not" alienating players, the more players start showing up who start to get bothered by things being simplified. Back to the Future didn't alienate me because it was too difficult, it alienated me because it was far too simple.

I'm of the opinion that the best games knowingly take that risk of alienating people and accept that they're not going to please everyone. Some of the best games I've played in the last year (Demon's Souls, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy XIII) turned off a lot of people because of their mechanics, but I absolutely loved them.

I wonder what the balance is between not alienating people and still making a game that people enjoy playing.

antoniomsg · 03/14/2011, 03:04 pm

I completely agree with you, wilco. The best games Lucasarts made were occasionally very hard, but they were memorable also because of their complexity. The early Monkey Islands are an example of that. If they don't want to alienate people, the in-game hint system's there exactly for that.

I think that one problem is having only one clicking icon. It dumbs down the experience. I wish Telltales at least brought back something like what was used in Curse of Monkey Island: when clicking on something, being able to decide if you want to interact with your mouth, eyes, or hands. Apart from giving more depth to the gameplay, it opens up a lot of possibilities for humorous responses.

zounds! · 03/14/2011, 04:23 pm

I would love to see what they could do with a full on game, and not just episodes. I think that limits it somewhat in the complexity department.

antoniomsg · 03/14/2011, 04:27 pm

Yeah, you're right, having more freedom to explore really makes things more complex. I don't know, however, if it'd be a good idea for them, commercially speaking. But I'd sure love it too for them to come up with a full, undivided, game.

Simo Sakari Aaltonen · 03/14/2011, 08:31 pm

Ideally, creative works should not just avoid alienating (a negative goal), they should attract, compel, enchant, interest and draw in (a positive goal). Focusing too much on the former may hinder managing the latter - and the starting point should be the latter, anyway.

joek86 · 03/15/2011, 07:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilco64256

I keep seeing comments from Telltale about how they use the model they do for games to keep from alienating players, but the more I see that concept the more I wonder about it. It seems that the more effort you put into "not" alienating players, the more players start showing up who start to get bothered by things being simplified. Back to the Future didn't alienate me because it was too difficult, it alienated me because it was far too simple.

I'm of the opinion that the best games knowingly take that risk of alienating people and accept that they're not going to please everyone. Some of the best games I've played in the last year (Demon's Souls, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy XIII) turned off a lot of people because of their mechanics, but I absolutely loved them.

I wonder what the balance is between not alienating people and still making a game that people enjoy playing.

Funny you should mention FF XIII, seeing as how it goes against the point you're trying to make. The main reason it turned off fans of the series was because it had been dumbed down in plot and mechanics to try to appeal to a mass market. Not because it was taking a risk. The risk in that case would have been to release as a traditional JRPG style game. It had nothing to do with the game being to difficult for the casual crowd.

However, that said, I do agree with the basic point your trying to get across. I would have stated Heavy Rain as a good example. It was a great game that took risks as far as story, maturity, and mechanics and it paid off in a big way for the developer.

Also, seeing as this is in the Kings Quest forum, I think it should be stated that instead of worrying about alienating POTENTIAL fans of a series, worry about alienating the ones it already has.

I would hope that with TTG's usual respect towards established series will still hold true. I was one of the few who felt the same about Sam & Max as many do about King's Quest. They didn't let me down for S&M why would they on KQ?

chucklas · 03/16/2011, 05:05 am

I think "not alienating people" is straight lip service. What it comes down to is that the large masses prefer to have things handed to them. As sad as this sounds it is true. Most people do not want to work for anything. Telltale is in the business to make money (not games as people might think). It makes them more money to make games that are not difficult. If they make diehard fans (a relativelty small number of people) upset, it doesn't bother them because it doesn't really hurt their bottom line.

*Irishmile* · 03/16/2011, 01:53 pm

To some extent YES TTG is a business that has investors, partners, and families to think about every time they make a game... and yes that means they have a responsibility to them to reach as many gamers as they can and make it accessible to many different level of gamers.. While some of you may complain that the games are too easy and they are not enough like (insert rival game company here) you have to realize that TTG is not (insert rival game company here) they are making the games they would want to play themselves, and that they think others would enjoy.

Claims that they are selling out or just interested in making loads of money are pretty ridiculous... if that was the case lets be honest here they would NOT be making adventure games.

I can understand if you do not like an episode here or there or elements in a series.. but I think when its all said and done and you have played an entire season that the end experience is still something pretty unique and special... this includes the atmosphere on these boards...

Now I know this may make me sound like a Fanboy... BUT keep in mind I have not been afraid to say something negative about TTG in the past... But I still believe that as a whole TTG is a company that deserves my money and they make games I look forward to playing.... I do not see that changing anytime soon.

Giant Tope · 03/16/2011, 02:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucklas

I think "not alienating people" is straight lip service. What it comes down to is that the large masses prefer to have things handed to them. As sad as this sounds it is true. Most people do not want to work for anything. Telltale is in the business to make money (not games as people might think). It makes them more money to make games that are not difficult. If they make diehard fans (a relativelty small number of people) upset, it doesn't bother them because it doesn't really hurt their bottom line.

Have you ever heard of eustress? Counterpart to it's cousin, distress, eustress is the good kind of stress. This is the kind of stress people seek out because it gives them the feeling of excitement and accomplishment. In fact, we as humans almost entirely center our lives around it. We come up with goals all the time in life and when we don't meet them, we don't really feel good about it.

The reason we spend hours on end trying to get a worthless achievement is the same reason we run marathons or maintain a floral garden. More likely than not for this reason, more people want at least a bit of a challenge in a game.

chucklas · 03/16/2011, 03:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irishmile

Claims that they are selling out or just interested in making loads of money are pretty ridiculous... if that was the case lets be honest here they would NOT be making adventure games.

It is actually quite profitable to have a monopoly over a niche market. Nowadays, that seems to be the most successful new business model; find a niche group that does not have a specific product and exploit it. If there were other adventure game companies out there making a mark in the adventure game market, they might have to rethink what they are doing, but for now, while there is little competition, they can continue as they are. I think that is why they went after KQ in the first place. If AGDI or someone else were to make KQ games it would effect their bottom line (for other games as well). They are a business, and the bottom line is the $$ they make. Even if you don't like that, it is true. They don't make adventure games because they aren't profitable.

antoniomsg · 03/16/2011, 03:04 pm

I love TTG and support them, having bought most of their games. But they have yet to release something as good as the classics from the golden era of adventure games, and I feel a part of this comes from some lack of complexity and options when interacting with the environment. I wouldn't be criticizing them if I didn't think they could make even better games.

Lambonius · 03/16/2011, 05:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoniomsg

I love TTG and support them, having bought most of their games. But they have yet to release something as good as the classics from the golden era of adventure games, and I feel a part of this comes from some lack of complexity and options when interacting with the environment. I wouldn't be criticizing them if I didn't think they could make even better games.

This. I would say that the lack of interactivity and larger explorable areas is the MAIN reason why the games don't feel as deep or immersive as the old classics. The simplistic puzzles don't help either.

icedan · 03/16/2011, 11:46 pm

Isn't this the dilemma of games we have been seeing a lot in just about every genre these days?

Imagine if Roberta Williams or Al Lowe were to make a game that looked and played exactly like one of their best games but with a new story, would you rush to it with drooling mouths? I think you would. Isn't it ironic that companies don't give what the fans want because it sounds economically stupid - who would make a game that looks like it came out of the early 90's, who would expect it to sell? This is exactly the kind of stigma that is probably hurting sales in the first place. Someone, somewhere has to take that "leap of faith", trust the fans arguments and see where it takes you, maybe the fans are right, maybe giving us what we want is actually more profitable.

chucklas · 03/17/2011, 03:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giant Tope

The reason we spend hours on end trying to get a worthless achievement is the same reason we run marathons or maintain a floral garden. More likely than not for this reason, more people want at least a bit of a challenge in a game.

I agree that I want challenge in a game. Most people who spend time on forums want that too. The problem is that most people who buy games don't want a challenge. They want the have the achievement and they will use walkthroughs to get it and then they feel "acomplished." And for what? Being able to repeat what you saw in a youtube video with someone much smarter than them telling them exactly what to do. The problem is that it is the guy making the walkthrough that wants more of a challenge, not the thousands of people that end up using the walkthrough. Way more people want to be given the solution with no work on their part. They at times will post questions on a forum because they don't want to do the work of reading through previous posts where the answer is already sure to be found.

Giant Tope · 03/17/2011, 12:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucklas

The problem is that most people who buy games don't want a challenge.

..:( you didn't read my post. The entire reason why people play games is to give them a little extra something to do. IE: Giving themselves an unnecessary challenge in life.

Chyron8472 · 03/17/2011, 01:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucklas

The problem is that most people who buy games don't want a challenge.

Whoa, I totally disagree. Games that handhold you through difficult puzzles, or else have no difficult puzzles to speak of, are boring and forgettable. A feeling of accomplishment only comes from having to work to get the desired outcome.

This is why people are saying BTTF and JP are closer to "interactive movie games" than adventure games.

chucklas · 03/17/2011, 01:31 pm

I don't think you guys get my point. I understand what you prefer, it is everyone else (not on the forums...etc.) that I am talking about. Everyone here on the forums is quite different from the general population. Most people who take the time to actually discuss games want quite a bit more from them. Once you go outside of the internet world and our choice of friends (who tend to be similar to ourselves) then you will find the majority of people; who are quite different from us. I want a challenge, so do the large majority of people here. The problem is, there are many many more people who do not want that kind of challenge. Step outside of your own perspective and you might actually see that the majority of people are lazy, stupid, and prefer for someone to tell them what to do while thinking they are great for doing nothing.

MusicallyInspired · 03/17/2011, 01:38 pm

I understand what Chucklas is trying to say. At some point the game industry discovered that if they made their games easier, or offered hints and handholding through the entire process, people would feel smarter and feel like they're actually good gamers. That means more sales.

Chyron8472 · 03/17/2011, 01:55 pm

I want to disagree. I really do. And I don't generally hang out with the kind of people you're referring to... but I have a fear that you may be right.

It's the same type of person that would stockpile Potassium Iodide for themselves in the United States as a result of a nuclear emergency halfway around the world in Japan.

zounds! · 03/17/2011, 02:01 pm

The adventure game market isn't what it once was. A lot of games back then were expected to also have hint books associated with them. Some games were practically impossible without them. Even if I got stuck in a game I would keep trying and trying. These days, however there are a lot more options and game styles. I don't think overall people would appreciate the old style difficulty or have the patience to complete it when there are hundreds upon hundreds of other excellent distractions. I know that this is not what everyone thinks, and I know that I could still appreciate an old style game, but getting friends to play one of these old Sierra/Lucasarts games is tough, especially if they've never even played one. My friend said he played through Sam and Max Episode 1 and thought it was too hard. I don't agree but I've been playing these games for a looong time.

So I understand both sides of the argument and while I'm open to some new features and maybe even some slightly more "streamlined" puzzles, I think that if I ever want to play a game like the ones I remember, I'm going to have to actually go back and play those games. That genre isn't totally dead though, the genre of games we have now is just more prominent, and still looking for its niche.

03/14/2011, 02:07 pm	#1
wilco64256 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 156	Risking Alienation I keep seeing comments from Telltale about how they use the model they do for games to keep from alienating players, but the more I see that concept the more I wonder about it. It seems that the more effort you put into "not" alienating players, the more players start showing up who start to get bothered by things being simplified. Back to the Future didn't alienate me because it was too difficult, it alienated me because it was far too simple. I'm of the opinion that the best games knowingly take that risk of alienating people and accept that they're not going to please everyone. Some of the best games I've played in the last year (Demon's Souls, Resonance of Fate, Final Fantasy XIII) turned off a lot of people because of their mechanics, but I absolutely loved them. I wonder what the balance is between not alienating people and still making a game that people enjoy playing.

03/14/2011, 08:31 pm	#5
Simo Sakari Aaltonen Touchie Feelie Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Tampere, Finland Posts: 201	Ideally, creative works should not just avoid alienating (a negative goal), they should attract, compel, enchant, interest and draw in (a positive goal). Focusing too much on the former may hinder managing the latter - and the starting point should be the latter, anyway. __________________ King's Quest & Space Quest albums www.adventurecompanion.com

03/16/2011, 01:53 pm	#8
Irishmile The Skipping Dead Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: WI, its a paradise 3 months of the year Posts: 6,542	To some extent YES TTG is a business that has investors, partners, and families to think about every time they make a game... and yes that means they have a responsibility to them to reach as many gamers as they can and make it accessible to many different level of gamers.. While some of you may complain that the games are too easy and they are not enough like (insert rival game company here) you have to realize that TTG is not (insert rival game company here) they are making the games they would want to play themselves, and that they think others would enjoy. Claims that they are selling out or just interested in making loads of money are pretty ridiculous... if that was the case lets be honest here they would NOT be making adventure games. I can understand if you do not like an episode here or there or elements in a series.. but I think when its all said and done and you have played an entire season that the end experience is still something pretty unique and special... this includes the atmosphere on these boards... Now I know this may make me sound like a Fanboy... BUT keep in mind I have not been afraid to say something negative about TTG in the past... But I still believe that as a whole TTG is a company that deserves my money and they make games I look forward to playing.... I do not see that changing anytime soon. __________________ unholy THIS! I am a community moderator, here to assist, keep the peace, and keep these boards clean and friendly for all. I am a volunteer, and not a Telltale employee, and my opinions are my own.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03/14/2011, 03:04 pm	#2
antoniomsg Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 19	I completely agree with you, wilco. The best games Lucasarts made were occasionally very hard, but they were memorable also because of their complexity. The early Monkey Islands are an example of that. If they don't want to alienate people, the in-game hint system's there exactly for that. I think that one problem is having only one clicking icon. It dumbs down the experience. I wish Telltales at least brought back something like what was used in Curse of Monkey Island: when clicking on something, being able to decide if you want to interact with your mouth, eyes, or hands. Apart from giving more depth to the gameplay, it opens up a lot of possibilities for humorous responses.

03/14/2011, 04:23 pm	#3
zounds! Just this guy, ya know? Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 233	I would love to see what they could do with a full on game, and not just episodes. I think that limits it somewhat in the complexity department.

03/14/2011, 04:27 pm	#4
antoniomsg Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 19	Yeah, you're right, having more freedom to explore really makes things more complex. I don't know, however, if it'd be a good idea for them, commercially speaking. But I'd sure love it too for them to come up with a full, undivided, game.

03/16/2011, 05:05 am	#7
chucklas Quester for Infamy Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 134	I think "not alienating people" is straight lip service. What it comes down to is that the large masses prefer to have things handed to them. As sad as this sounds it is true. Most people do not want to work for anything. Telltale is in the business to make money (not games as people might think). It makes them more money to make games that are not difficult. If they make diehard fans (a relativelty small number of people) upset, it doesn't bother them because it doesn't really hurt their bottom line.

03/16/2011, 03:04 pm	#11
antoniomsg Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 19	I love TTG and support them, having bought most of their games. But they have yet to release something as good as the classics from the golden era of adventure games, and I feel a part of this comes from some lack of complexity and options when interacting with the environment. I wouldn't be criticizing them if I didn't think they could make even better games.

03/16/2011, 11:46 pm	#13
icedan The Dagger under the Rock Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: New Zealand Posts: 52	Isn't this the dilemma of games we have been seeing a lot in just about every genre these days? Imagine if Roberta Williams or Al Lowe were to make a game that looked and played exactly like one of their best games but with a new story, would you rush to it with drooling mouths? I think you would. Isn't it ironic that companies don't give what the fans want because it sounds economically stupid - who would make a game that looks like it came out of the early 90's, who would expect it to sell? This is exactly the kind of stigma that is probably hurting sales in the first place. Someone, somewhere has to take that "leap of faith", trust the fans arguments and see where it takes you, maybe the fans are right, maybe giving us what we want is actually more profitable.

03/17/2011, 01:31 pm	#17
chucklas Quester for Infamy Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 134	I don't think you guys get my point. I understand what you prefer, it is everyone else (not on the forums...etc.) that I am talking about. Everyone here on the forums is quite different from the general population. Most people who take the time to actually discuss games want quite a bit more from them. Once you go outside of the internet world and our choice of friends (who tend to be similar to ourselves) then you will find the majority of people; who are quite different from us. I want a challenge, so do the large majority of people here. The problem is, there are many many more people who do not want that kind of challenge. Step outside of your own perspective and you might actually see that the majority of people are lazy, stupid, and prefer for someone to tell them what to do while thinking they are great for doing nothing.

03/17/2011, 01:55 pm	#19
Chyron8472 Killer Walrus Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tulsa, OK, USA Posts: 4,070	I want to disagree. I really do. And I don't generally hang out with the kind of people you're referring to... but I have a fear that you may be right. It's the same type of person that would stockpile Potassium Iodide for themselves in the United States as a result of a nuclear emergency halfway around the world in Japan.

03/17/2011, 02:01 pm	#20
zounds! Just this guy, ya know? Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 233	The adventure game market isn't what it once was. A lot of games back then were expected to also have hint books associated with them. Some games were practically impossible without them. Even if I got stuck in a game I would keep trying and trying. These days, however there are a lot more options and game styles. I don't think overall people would appreciate the old style difficulty or have the patience to complete it when there are hundreds upon hundreds of other excellent distractions. I know that this is not what everyone thinks, and I know that I could still appreciate an old style game, but getting friends to play one of these old Sierra/Lucasarts games is tough, especially if they've never even played one. My friend said he played through Sam and Max Episode 1 and thought it was too hard. I don't agree but I've been playing these games for a looong time. So I understand both sides of the argument and while I'm open to some new features and maybe even some slightly more "streamlined" puzzles, I think that if I ever want to play a game like the ones I remember, I'm going to have to actually go back and play those games. That genre isn't totally dead though, the genre of games we have now is just more prominent, and still looking for its niche.