What they left out of the 3rd edition of the King's Quest Companion...

[Akril15]

Originally Posted by Valiento

I'm pretty sure this reference is taken from an obscure fairy tale story, that had a similar ice queen to the one in Han's Christian anderson. But involved a human that was changed into a wolf, and forced to be the queen's companion. It might have been part of the 'Mannikan/Genesta' story, but its been a decade or two since I read the fairy tale.

Is the Mannikan and Genesta story an actual fairy tale? I did some searches on the names, but couldn't find anything.

Originally Posted by Valiento

The idea of fairy's shapeshifting into animal forms, originates from mythology and fairy tale as well (thus the whole Genesta/leopard thing). The book as I recall does point out that its a trait from English fairy stories.

I looked at the KQC 2nd Edition, and it doesn't say that the shape-shifting is from English fairy stories -- it just says that they "come from and dwell in the Land of Faerie". I've read a lot of mythology and traditional fantasy stories, but I've never encountered the shape-shifting concept before. It is interesting, though.

Originally Posted by Valiento

If you want to talk about something bizarre from mythology, the book discusses the mythological Gwydion, and how he and his brother were turned into animals, one male and one female, and forced to sleep with each other! Homoerotic, incest and bestiality all in the same myth!

...
And to think I noticed all those other excerpts, yet failed to notice that one...I think I'll have to wear my brain in a cast for several weeks now.

[Valiento]

Is the Mannikan and Genesta story an actual fairy tale? I did some searches on the names, but couldn't find anything.

The fairy tale is called 'Heart of Ice' it seems;

here

looked at the KQC 2nd Edition, and it doesn't say that the shape-shifting is from English fairy stories -- it just says that they "come from and dwell in the Land of Faerie". I've read a lot of mythology and traditional fantasy stories, but I've never encountered the shape-shifting concept before. It is interesting, though.

It might not be English fairies specifically, but Wikipedia mentions it a bit more;


Shapeshifting

British and Irish
"Fairies, witches, and wizards were all noted for their shapeshifting ability. Not all fairies could shapeshift, and some were limited to changing their size, as with the spriggans, and others to a few forms and other fairies might have only the appearance of shape-shifting, through their power, called "glamour," to create illusions.[38]

Ya, its interesting alot of peter spear's stranger ideas in the book actually originate from obscure fairy tales! Though he tossed in a few modern fantasy references as well!

"Well Mother and Father, I'd really love to spend more time with you after spending nearly 18 years as a slave to an evil wizard, but right now I've got to go sic an Elder God on some rude pirates who stole my things before they brought me here. Bye!"

Well in the book IIRC, he also took the time to write a couple of books on magic, taught magic at the university, and took time to explore Mordack's castle!

Hmm, IIRC, one of the novels, The Floating Castle, had something just as strange! One passage said that Alexander had been on a journey away from Daventry, for something like six months to a year?

Too bad she never told him something like...say, the location of the Kingdom of the Green Isles?

Interesting point!

It begs the question though, if they were in communication, did she know where the location was of the Kingdom of the Green Isles in relation to where Alexander lived? Without geographical information it might have been difficult for her to say, where exactly she lived!

Remember she didn't really even know where Mordack's Island was in relation to her homeland!

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Valiento

The fairy tale is called 'Heart of Ice' it seems;

here




It might not be English fairies specifically, but Wikipedia mentions it a bit more;


Shapeshifting



Ya, its interesting alot of peter spear's stranger ideas in the book actually originate from obscure fairy tales! Though he tossed in a few modern fantasy references as well!



Well in the book IIRC, he also took the time to write a couple of books on magic, taught magic at the university, and took time to explore Mordack's castle!

Hmm, IIRC, one of the novels, The Floating Castle, had something just as strange! One passage said that Alexander had been on a journey away from Daventry, for something like six months to a year?

Interesting point!

It begs the question though, if they were in communication, did she know where the location was of the Kingdom of the Green Isles in relation to where Alexander lived? Without geographical information it might have been difficult for her to say, where exactly she lived!

Remember she didn't really even know where Mordack's Island was in relation to her homeland!

KQ6 makes it seem like the Green Isles are pretty much completely isolated from the rest of the world, so it would make sense for her not to know WHERE her homeland was, at least in relation to Daventry or anywhere else. Even in KQ5, the Green Isles is implied to be remote; Cassima thinks she's HEARD of Daventry--something legendary.

The idea of Mordack taking Cassima to his Castle by them riding on a bird would be a nice explanation for her locket landing in the Roc's nest.

Also, something I find interesting: Quite a few people (the Hermit, Crispin, Madame Mushka) seem to know about Mordack, at the very least, that he's a powerful and evil dude. I wonder how--Did he terrorize the land of Serenia at one point? Did he live there?

I also always wondered who the Hermit was. What his story was. Maybe he was an elderly John the Wanderer.

[Valiento]

The idea of Mordack taking Cassima to his Castle by them riding on a bird would be a nice explanation for her locket landing in the Roc's nest.

In KQ5, I think she vaguely mentions she lost it somewhere, when she was brought to Mordack's castle, but never specifcally mentions how! So ya the explanation does work.

KQ6 makes it seem like the Green Isles are pretty much completely isolated from the rest of the world, so it would make sense for her not to know WHERE her homeland was, at least in relation to Daventry or anywhere else. Even in KQ5, the Green Isles is implied to be remote; Cassima thinks she's HEARD of Daventry--something legendary.

Ya, but you know what's stranger? She may not have known how to get back to where she was from, but apparently Crispin knew where to send her back! KQ5 nor KQC explains how he knew where send her back though.

really like the latest edition. I never read the earlier ones. And based on the examples cited, I think lack of space may not have been the only reason the Encyclopedia was removed. A much more agreeable read this way.

I'm pretty sure its mainly for lack of space, considering that KQ6 actually added like another 220 pages to the book or so (with both the novel, and the hintbook section in the back). 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition have the same number of pages more or less (slightly more because of the rather huge KQ6 strategy section), and same paper stock.

4th Edition switched to really cheap paper stock... very thin, can and does fall apart easily.... Just so they could add in another 150 pages of chapters, and still fit in into a book as thick as 3rd edition. But really the binding in that edition is crap.

Actually, you'll find quite a bit of the King's Quest specific material from the encyclopedia (referring to family, or important details in the game) is mentioned in novels or related chapters. Some material specific to minor characters sometimes shows up in the novels as well, like the whole "Medusa" may be the same medusa that Perseus killed, is suggested in the KQ3 novel (However this relates to an explanation on how to deal with her).

All that stuff about Alexander making trips to various places for whatever magical reasons, like going to Mordack's castle, or teaching at the academy? Those are also mentioned other chapters such as the Sorcery of Old and the Iconomancy chapter. The Cthulu spell is mentioned in one of those chapters as well (though not specifically that Alexander had used it on the pirates).

The encyclopedia just broke it down, a bit more.

Interesting enough, the KQ7 novel in 4th edition actually makes a reference or two to the encyclopedia chapter. There is a comment that Valanice stood infront of the door to Rosella's bedroom with a sword; in order to keep Graham from taking their daughter to the dragon! That's taken from either the Valanice or Rosella articles in the encyclopedia!

Quite a bit stuff from the encyclopedia (such as Pegasus and the name of the monastery in Kolyma) also made it into the King's Quest Collection, trivia program via Josh Mandel (which was published some time after the 3rd Edition)!

Beyond that the encyclopedia was a great source of information, because it gives accounts many of the tales that inspired elements of the KQ series. It's a great resource for people who may not have knowledge of the more obscure references in the series! Like for example, how many people know about the 'Heart of Ice' tale, and that Genesta wasn't a creation by Roberta? Its very obscure, but by adding it in, he may have introduced people to it for the first time! This kind of information, about what inspired the KQ series, actually made 2/3s of the encyclopedia (if anything needs to be cut for space, that is is the kind of material to cut, since it is largely tangential to a book focusing on being a strategy guide).

How about the fact that the names of Rosanella and Valanice, may be inspired by the characters from the fairy tale, "Rosanella", which was about a princess named Rosanella, and her mother Balanice! I'm pretty sure that's more than a coincidence! See here.

[Akril15]

Originally Posted by Valiento

The fairy tale is called 'Heart of Ice' it seems;

here

Thank you very much! And wow, all these years and I had no idea that Genesta was based on a pre-existing fairy tale character. Amazing.

It might not be English fairies specifically, but Wikipedia mentions it a bit more;

Shapeshifting

Ah, I see. I should have said that I'd heard about fairies and other related magic entities having the capability of shape-shifting, but the KQC's statement that fairies (in the KQ universe) must spend one day a week in the form of an animal is a concept I haven't come across in any traditional fairy tales yet.

Well in the book IIRC, he also took the time to write a couple of books on magic, taught magic at the university, and took time to explore Mordack's castle!

Hmm, IIRC, one of the novels, The Floating Castle, had something just as strange! One passage said that Alexander had been on a journey away from Daventry, for something like six months to a year?

Wow...and wasn't the gap between KQ4 and 5 just one year? That Alexander is one incredibly busy young man.

It begs the question though, if they were in communication, did she know where the location was of the Kingdom of the Green Isles in relation to where Alexander lived? Without geographical information it might have been difficult for her to say, where exactly she lived!

Actually -- remember how in KQ6, Alexander tells Alhazred that Cassima invited him to visit her? The problem is that in KQ5, she doesn't invite him, he asks her if he can visit her kingdom (in the second sentence he speaks to her). If they were communicating between games, perhaps she could have formally invited him...maybe.

Ya, but you know what's stranger? She may not have known how to get back to where she was from, but apparently Crispin knew where to send her back! KQ5 nor KQC explains how he knew where send her back though.

Hmm...since Crispin is the only one who apparently knew where the Isles were, maybe he was teleporting letters between Alexander and Cassima but unfortunately forgot how to transport other people to different locations after sending Graham and his family home? This is making for some promising fan fiction material here...

How about the fact that the names of Rosanella and Valanice, may be inspired by the characters from the fairy tale, "Rosanella", which was about a princess named Rosanella, and her mother Balanice! I'm pretty sure that's more than a coincidence!

I was pretty astonished when I found that story. I guess the statement that everything in the KQ games has a connection to a myth or a fairy tale is far from exaggeration.

I was wondering where Roberta might have heard of these obscure stories in the pre-Internet age, but then I realized that the Mannikan/Mannikin story and the Rosanella story are both found in Andrew Lang's Green Fairy Book (first published in 1892). They're even both by the same author. (And wow, the story about the white snake [the same thing that Crispin gives Graham in KQ5] is in there too!)

[Valiento]

I was wondering where Roberta might have heard of these obscure stories in the pre-Internet age, but then I realized that the Mannikan/Mannikin story and the Rosanella story are both found in Andrew Lang's Green Fairy Book (first published in 1892). They're even both by the same author. (And wow, the story about the white snake [the same thing that Crispin gives Graham in KQ5] is in there too!)

Interesting observations I had actually noticed the Green book connection between Heart of Ice and Rosanella. Didn't know about the white snake though!

I've been thinking more about Crispin though. The KQC suggests that Crispin may or may not be a persona he has adopted and that he may or may not have once been Merlin and that Cedric is Archemedes.

Well in KQ6 we learn of yet another mysterious wizard which some think died, others think poofed himself into an Aardvark. He was the only wizard he land knew! There is also a myth that the Isle o Wonders was created by a wizard according to the Guidebook, but I'm digressing.

Could it be possible that Haroun alRashid was just another persona for Crispin? He neither died nor shapeshifted. This could explain why he knew of he Islands location!

In KQC the court wizard (Haroun?) knew were Serenia was, and sent Derek there from the Green Isles!

If the wizard is Crispin/Haroun, it would certainly explain why he would both know where Green Isles is, and also why he would know where Serenia is!

but the KQC's statement that fairies (in the KQ universe) must spend one day a week in the form of an animal is a concept I haven't come across in any traditional fairy tales yet

As for the one week thing, I'll look into it, there must be some kind of inspiration behind it. Most of Peter Spear's material has something inspiring it. If I discover anything I'll post my findings. It would be funny though, if it turned out to be another idea taken from the Green book, or the other fairy books by that author!

Edit: Well, I did come across this reference to a 14th c. french fairy tale, something about the Legend of the Fairy Melusine.

She was a fairy who was married to a human. She would transform into a half-serpent creature one day out of every week, in this case because of a curse.

It certainly seems to share similarties to the rules mentioned about fairies in KQC, and could be the inspiration for the idea (there may be similar stories elsewhere though). See here.

Edit 2: Apparently, the idea of shape shifting Snow Leopards is a common theme in ancient myths... So Peter could have gotten that idea from assortment of stories. See here, for more information!

Seriously don't underestimate Peter Spear, or the various KQ authors for dredging up obscure Fairy Tales and sources of myth!

[Brainiac]

Originally Posted by Valiento

Seriously don't underestimate Peter Spear, or the various KQ authors for dredging up obscure Fairy Tales and sources of myth!

Speaking of that, I find it rather hard to believe that at least one of the writing duo known as Kenyon Morr wasn't aware of this little ditty when Kingdom of Sorrow was written.

[Valiento]

Fascinating, thanks for that!

Hmm, we should start a thread, just on trying to track KQ characters/events/etc, and the myths they are connected to!

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by Valiento

Fascinating, thanks for that!

Hmm, we should start a thread, just on trying to track KQ characters/events/etc, and the myths they are connected to!

I believe the KQ Omnipedia has already noted this, but the Magic Fruit which Rosella seeks out in order to save Graham's life in KQ4 is taken from the Tale of the Three Princes in the 1001 Arabian Nights, wherein a prince, one of three brothers, saves the life of a dying princess with a magic fruit.

(Funny thing: there was a TV miniseries version of the Arabian Nights about a decade ago, which featured this story... but in the TV version, the prince must save his own father's life, instead of saving a princess.)

[Valiento]

The Magic Fruit is actually devised from several legends.

The Tree of Life (see KQ4 AGI?), from the Garden of Eden (not to be confused with the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil). It is also connected to the magical fruit of the Garden of Hesperides, guarded by the giant serpent!. Of course, the fact that it is a serpent, could also roughly be connected back to the the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, in a round about way!

Wow...and wasn't the gap between KQ4 and 5 just one year? That Alexander is one incredibly busy young man.

Well, 'nearly a year' to a 'year' depending on the source.

[ATMachine]

Looking back at the Narnia books, in The Magician's Nephew there's a magical tree in a walled garden, on which grow silver apples. The tree is guarded by a phoenix nesting in its branches. The book's hero, Digory, gains a fruit from the tree and gives it to his seriously ill mother, who is healed by eating it.

There's also a Golden Apple from the Tree of Life in The White Snake, a story in The Green Fairy Book (the same tale, in fact, which provided the magical white snake, the talking-to-animals motif, and even the helpful Ant King seen in KQ5). The hero of The White Snake is told by a princess that he must bring her such an apple if he hopes to win her hand; with the help of animals he befriended earlier, he succeeds in the quest, wins the princess's heart, and becomes king.

The Green Fairy Book is very interesting, in fact, and seems to have provided a LOT of inspiration for KQ.

For instance, in its tale Prince Narcissus and the Princess Potentilla the hero uses a magic ring, which when worn grants invisibility, to court a princess without being observed by an evil enchanter, who also covets her hand. This may well have inspired the magic ring of invisibility in KQ1. (As in KQ1, and most unlike the One Ring in Lord of the Rings, this ring is not malevolent in any way.)

There's also Prince Featherhead and the Princess Celandine, whose heroine hails from the Summer Islands. Possibly this was an inspiration for the Green Isles, home of Princess Cassima, first mentioned in KQ5.

[Valiento]

Looking back at the Narnia books, in The Magician's Nephew there's a magical tree in a walled garden, on which grow silver apples. The tree is guarded by a phoenix nesting in its branches. The book's hero, Digory, gains a fruit from the tree and gives it to his seriously ill mother, who is healed by eating it.

This actually was likely inspired directly from the Biblical Tree of Life, C.S. Lewis was known for inserting a large amount of Biblical allegory into his stories. The walled off garden is inspired by Eden. Infact, much of the Magician's Nephew is inspired from the story of Creation!

For instance, in its tale Prince Narcissus and the Princess Potentilla the hero uses a magic ring, which when worn grants invisibility, to court a princess without being observed by an evil enchanter, who also covets her hand. This may well have inspired the magic ring of invisibility in KQ1. (As in KQ1, and most unlike the One Ring in Lord of the Rings, this ring is not malevolent in any way.)

Magic Rings are a dime a dozen in fairy tales actually.

Tolkien's one ring, originally wasn't 'malevolent' that's a retcon made in LOTR Trilogy. Originally it was inspired by many of the traditional invisible rings of legend. In the original edition of the Hobbit, there was nothing malevolent about it (and how Bilbo obtained the ring was different), and the story was intended to be a children's fairy tale..

LOTR then drew inspiration from the Ring of Nibelung, which presented one such ring as a ring of world domination.

Peter Spear suggests that the inspiration behind the invisible ring in KQ is a fairy tale in which a ring is given to Rosimond by a fairy he encountered in the woods and talked to (not unlike Graham encountering an elf, and receiving a ring after talking to him).

"Rosimond was given an enchanted ring by a fairy. This ring was gold with a diamond in its center, if the diamond were turned, it would render the ring's wearer invisible. The ring also had the power to give its wearer the shape of the king's son. At first the ring seemed a great gift, but grief and sorrow followed it everywhere. In the end, Rosimond returned the ring to the fairy, saying that it is dangerous to have more power than the rest of the world."

Note that Rosimond's ring is also one of the rings that suggest to have world powerful connotations, but also negative aspects (brings grief and sorrow). Albeit its not near as negative as the one in LOTR.

Rosimond also originates from the Green Book, the story is, 'The Enchanted Ring'! Other titles of the story include 'Rosimond and Braminte'.

There's also Prince Featherhead and the Princess Celandine, whose heroine hails from the Summer Islands. Possibly this was an inspiration for the Green Isles, home of Princess Cassima, first mentioned in KQ5

I think there may also be inspiration from island hopping tales like Gulliver's Travels and Voyage of the Dawn Treader, in which each island visited includes progressively interesting cultures, and themes.

Obviously each island also is drawn upon various fairy tales and myth as well.

[galbyman]

Wow, there are a lot of really dumb things listed here from the KQCs. But one that really stands out is the concept of the theory of evolution existing in a world based in Fantasy. That and the lizard people being a high tech race.

[Valiento]

That's actually a DND reference or so I've been told actually. Along with the reference to Talanore and the multiverse.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizardfolk
Actually wikipedia discusses the spacefaring lizardfolk variant there. It's the obvious inspiration, and confirms the author was a total nerd, lol.

There was also a fantasy cartoon from the 80's or 90's that had a similar premise.

As far as evolution in KQ, KQ6, more specifically the Guidebook claims that the Winged Ones evolved from the Ancient Ones!

Evolution can easily be adapted into a fantasy setting.

[galbyman]

I see what you are saying and I will say that Spelljammer was an awesome campaign setting. But I still think that both takes way from the fairy tale feeling of King's Quest, but that could just be me. BTW, I belive the show you are talking about is Dinosaucers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uhZ8l56_p8

Correct me if I am wrong.

[Valiento]

I don't think it bothers me personally since most of the lizardfolk references applies more to Earth's history (the world of the editor) as opposed to the World of Daventry itself. The book has a kinda Longest Journey vibe to it, world of science vs the world of fantasy. Great series if you haven't played it.

I suppose Narnia also has the touch of real world and alternative fantasy world as well. So it's a common fantasy concept.

Chronotrigger and Chronocross also pulled the the whole technologically advanced lizard race/evolution/fantasy premise with the Reptites. so maybe this concept isn't as alien to me...outside my personal suspension of disbelief.

As for dinosaucers that may very well be it!

[Kiramin]

The thing to remember as far as the truth of anything in the compendium is concerned... it is written by Derek Karlavaegan.

Anything said in it represents things he believes or simply heard and wrote down. In that sense, anything he says can be wrong. And if the games contradict it, we can choose to see that as being to case.

Therefore, the companion *could* be both completely canon and contain misinformation. Nothing he *says* in it need be true for the book to be canon, because if it is canon, it simply means the authors have created this character in Daventry, by the name of Derek Karlavaegan, and he wrote this fictitious book... which could be full of rumors, superstitions or even lies! (though I don't think Derek is actively trying to deceive).

And if the authors were trying to do this creative device justice (the fictitious author device) there probably would be some falsities because being an imperfect author writing about something he has little ability to verify, they are bound to make their way in there!

[MusicallyInspired]

I believe he's the one who came up with idea that Hagatha is the third sibling to Mordack and Manannan. Something Roberta refuted.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I believe he's the one who came up with idea that Hagatha is the third sibling to Mordack and Manannan. Something Roberta refuted.

Yeah but it was also included in King's Questions, which was a Sierra product not designed or written by Peter Spear. So the idea comes from SOMEWHERE.

Consider also: Roberta didn't even know the Black Cloak Society made it into the final version of KQ6 until fans began asking questions about it; It was only an idea loosely bandied about in early story sessions.

And: In the KQC, Edgar is speculated as being the son of a fisherman. In early ideas for KQ8, Roberta had the idea that Connor would be the son of a fisherman.

Also, in the KQC, it's mentioned that Castle Daventry is rumored to have secret entrances as well as portals which allow for teleportation to other parts of the world. In KQ8, the main Castle Daventry has secret entrances (the waterfall) and the Old Castlekeep of Daventry has a portal which allows for teleportation to other parts of the world.

Also, InterAction Magazine claimed Roberta had detailed biographical and general personality information on all her characters; It claimed, for example, that she could even tell you such minutia as what Rosella's favorite color is.

Spear was not only in touch with Ken and John Williams, who were really in favor of it, but also in touch with Jane Jensen and Eluki bes Shahar (another Sierra employee). And the book got it's blessing from Roberta and if I recall correctly, Spear was allowed access to Roberta's personal notes on the games.

[BagginsKQ]

Ken Williams has mentioned on his website before, IIRC, that Roberta even got a chance to read through the King's Quest Companions to help give her input before it was even published (that's why the first edition went to print with her approval stamped on the back).

Infact, in the acknowledgements page, Peter Spear claims he worked with Roberta on at least the first, 2nd and 3rd editions! Especially on the KQ5 edition, and the 3rd Edition. Roberta went as much to give her own support of the books, which were printed on the backcovers!

He also claimed to have worked with her and Lorelei Shannon on the KQ7 material in the KQ7: Authorized Guide/4th Edition. This is also why he knew of several behind the scenes details, and cut material for the games!

It's interesting that some of his material actually made it into the games, directly referenced for example, Cedric turned to stone, appears in the updated script by Roberta used in the KQ5 for the NES...

KQ5 also makes references to the 'royal physicians' who weren't able to find a cure for Graham's Heart Attack, which was first established in his KQ4 novelization!


Peter Spear had a relation with the Williams that many of only wish we could have had! He sort of became a kind of PR for Sierra, let in on all kinds of projects, largely before anyone else got to see them! A strong friendship developed apparently, or so I've been told (when I had a chance to interview him).

The book even goes into that they first met, when Peter was sent in to interview her at a trade show about new game she had developed back in 1983 or so. After that they started inviting him to Sierra for many other things.

Yeah but it was also included in King's Questions, which was a Sierra product not designed or written by Peter Spear. So the idea comes from SOMEWHERE.

As I understand it Josh Mandel wrote most of the questions for that game! The artwork in the game (which is based on the world of Daventry as established in the Companion) was done by Michael Hutchison, the senior artist from KQ6...

And: In the KQC, Edgar is speculated as being the son of a fisherman. In early ideas for KQ8, Roberta had the idea that Connor would be the son of a fisherman.

BTW, the book never says that Edgar was the 'son of a fisherman', it says that 'people rumored he was the son of a drugged slave or a malevolent wizard".... I.E. it states clearly these were only 'rumors".

Eluki bes Shahar (another Sierra employee).

She was not a Sierra employee... Never was... She is a professional novelist (fantasy, scifi and romances), her real name Rosmary Edghill (eluki bes shahar is one of her professional pseudonyms, or vice versa, not sure which)... She had no connection to Sierra, except that Sierra commisioned her to write the KQ6 novel for the Companion. Actually she was commisioned by Jane Jensen from what I've been able to find out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Edghill

http://www.sff.net/people/eluki/

You can find more, plus cited editorial information here;
http://kingsquest.wikia.com/wiki/The...7s_Involvement