Legends, Myths, and Fairy Tales- what lore tickles your adventure bone?

[Sinaz20]

Hi everyone. I just wanted to spark a new conversation as some of us swirl visions of Daventry in the backs of our minds (while working on current projects.)

I have been thinking a lot about the source inspiration for the King's Quest games. Roberta Williams developed a rich world of twisted fairytales, classical myth, and fantasy conventions. She pulled from so many sources that by the end of the series, it really felt like she was running out of material. She had begun to dip into more contemporary literature like Lewis Carroll.

I want to know what kind of material interests you. What stories, myth, legend, or fairytales do you feel got left behind or went unexamined?

I'm trying to compile a lot of research material to build a reference library for the eventual team.

I recently finished reading The Once and Future King followed up by Le Morte d'Arthur and have been feeling, "well, now, there's a King's quest!" This has actually spurred me on to more medievalist self-study, as I've begun to read some historical essays concerning the lives and cultures around European medieval cities and castles. I'm also revisiting some of my Norse mythology studies.

I'm going to be reading through the complete works of the Brothers Grimm to freshen up on my fairytales.

Obviously The Lord of the Rings is topical, so I'd like to hear some opinion about the themes and setting of Middle Earth. Appropriate? Relevant? No, no, stay away?

King's Quest has mostly been centered on European folklore, later reaching out to the Arabian Nights tales and nonsense (as in surreal) literature. Are there any other ethnic folklores/literature that I should consider? Would these other folklores feel off brand? I am partial to Chinese and Japanese legend, but that just seems totally out of left field for a King's Quest game. What do you think?

[GuybrushWilco]

I do not feel like it HAS to draw only from European myths and legends. Daventry is certainly based around that, but most of the games involve the player character traveling to some other place that is very different from Daventry. I'm not expert of fairy tales, and can't think of specific examples of anything left out. Drawing from Greek mythology would be neat, which was already done somewhat in KQ6 with the minotaur. Maybe Gulliver's Travels would be a good source of inspiration. I've always loved the Sinbad movies by Ray Harryhausen (and all of his movies) and I feel those could be a good source for inspiration.

[JuntMonkey]

You might want to take a look at the Smax graphic novel by Alan Moore. Characters journey through a fantasy world that has every myth imaginable incorporated in it, up to and including adventure games. You could glean some inspiration I'm sure.

Asian myth is an interesting idea - perhaps better saved for a sequel or a single episode though...the main setting of this first new proper KQ game in 17 years should probably be traditional "European" fantasy.

In another Alan Moore comic series, Promethea, there is a brief cameo from The Pied Piper in which he is a complete badass, yet still completely consistent with the myth (not an American McGee situation). Maybe look for "edgy" angles like that from more traditional characters who are at first glance uninteresting.

Certainly some things such as trolls from Norse mythology could be cool (they've been done already in some form throughout the series, but there's room to explore there).

I definitely think you're on the right track with the stuff you're looking into, especially re-reading all of the Grimm stories. As I alluded to with the Pied Piper comment, see if there are versions you could incorporate closer to the "real" versions that might be more interesting than what we're used to.

Try to watch Pinocchio if you haven't seen it in a while...really great aesthetic in addition to more superficial elements that you could take from that.

Not a fan of incorporating any major elements from LotR, but that's me. I'd rather you draw from The Black Cauldron series (Chronicles of Prydain).

[Akril15]

I'm not against branching out into mythology and folklore from other parts of the world, but I think that European stories should definitely take the center stage. Grimms' fairy tales and the Arabian Nights are both large collections of stories, and there are still many that haven't been incorporated into a KQ game.

Speaking of which, Valiento, ATMachine and I recently discovered that several characters and elements from the original series (i.e., Genesta, Lolotte) actually originated from several obscure fairy tales that were all from a single collection of fairy tales compiled by Andrew Lang. There are eleven other books by the same author. Some of the stories contained in them are very familiar (Rumpelstiltskin, The Three Little Pigs, etc.), while others are completely new to me. I'd be interested in seeing bits of these more obscure stories making an appearance. I'd also be interested to see some lesser-known mythical creatures from European folklore appear, and even something as small as a superstition about the supernatural could play a part in a puzzle (e.g., stepping into a fairy ring during a full moon, four-leaf clovers allow a person carrying it to see fairies and can also break enchantments). I'm sure the Rip Van Winkle story would also fit in fairly well.

[Sinaz20]

I should point out, that the purpose of this is not to cobble together pieces of other stories, but to expand our pool of literary knowledge and research. King's quest isn't about stapling the various stories together into a Frankentale. I don't want to convey such an idea as a strategy to designing the game.

More so, I just want to see what kind of themes and styles you'd want to experience in a KQ game.

So-- yeah, you're not going to riddle Gollum for the Ring, but riddling a creature for something is certainly on brand. There may be thematic elements or perhaps artifacts lifted out of such stories... Mythril anyone? A shattered sword needing to be mended?

What I like about the Arthurian Legend, in particular, is the sense of building an ideology around virtue and questing for artifacts, also the incestuous nature of villainy and revenge in the stories. There's also the satire of questing for the sake of questing that comes up a lot in The Once and Future King.

Andrew Lang is a great reference-- gonna have to try to find some collections to purchase.

Sinbad is part of Arabian legend... well before Harryhausen. But yeah, again-- Arabian legend is a good source that had begun to be tapped by Roberta Williams.

[Lambonius]

As much as I love Lord of the Rings, I think that a Tolkein-inspired take on the standard fantasy creatures is very UN-King's Quest. There are really no instances in the series (aside from a few general character archetypes) that even approach Tolkein-esque material, so I'd stay away from Middle Earth as source material. It's not a direction that any game in the series has taken yet, and personally, I think any Tolkein references, even obscure ones, would feel very out of place. KQ was more the realm of fairy tales and mythology rather than the high fantasy of Tolkein.

Concerning mythology, I think it's important to stick to the mythology of Western civilization. Classical myth has already been done to death in KQ games, but Norse mythology could fit, if done right. KQ6 had a touch of an Arabian Nights feel, but it was pretty much confined to character archetypes (genie/vizier) and Moorish architectural style. The game never delved into the realm of actual Arabian mythology, and the visual aesthetic and character archetypes were incorporated into a decidedly western setting. Anything that was more richly Arabian would probably feel out of place, and would be in danger of feeling like a retread of Quest For Glory II.

[GuybrushWilco]

I wouldn't go near any of Tokein's works for King's Quest. King's Quest has always been built around well known general fairy tales and legends rather than from any specific literary work. I just pointed out Gulliver's travels as a source of inspiration for weird creatures and situations he finds himself in.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm against Tolkien lore as well. Tolkien lore is another level of fantasy that I don't believe King's Quest can really approach given that its own lore is now set and its own feel presented.

I like the idea of incorporating elements of Norse mythology, though, as Lamb mentioned, if done correctly could be neat.

[ATMachine]

I also agree that drawing much inspiration from Tolkien would be bad for KQ. The Lord of the Rings has a very "high," melancholy tone in which the imminent passing of the heroic age, the time of elves and demigods, is always keenly felt. I'm not sure KQ should ever be so elegiac (although, admittedly, Roberta wanted to do something Tolkienesque with Mask of Eternity).

In fact, King's Quest is an embodiment of much that JRR Tolkien hated about the fantasy of his era--e.g., there are diminutive, mischievous elves and winged fairy godmothers, the sort of simple characters and deus ex machinas the Victorians loved putting in children's tales and which Tolkien despised. In KQ the powers of good also invariably win out over evil, whereas Tolkien preferred to emphasize that even the biggest victories over the forces of darkness come only at a great price.

That doesn't mean there can't be some more "adult" things done with the lore, though. For example, the KQ Companion and the KQ novels all make clear that fairies and elves can be evil, or at least chillingly indifferent to human sensibilities. Although good elves and fairies do exist, humans should approach any such encounter with great caution.

Two good 20th century book series to look at, in terms of the proper background for KQ, would be CS Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia and Lloyd Alexander's The Chronicles of Prydain, both of which were important inspirations to Roberta Williams.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by ATMachine

Two good 20th century book series to look at, in terms of the proper background for KQ, would be CS Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia and Lloyd Alexander's The Chronicles of Prydain, both of which were important inspirations to Roberta Williams.

I've mentioned the Chronicles of Prydain time and time again, so I'll go ahead and second this recommendation one more time. Seriously, those books are great, and personally, I've never read any literature that reminded me more of a King's Quest game.

[thesporkman]

I really like the idea of incorporating elements of Arthurian legend into King's Quest. I'm actually really surprised that there weren't more obvious Arthurian references in the old King's Quest games, because, as you said, it seems like such a perfect fit for the series.

The Brothers Grimm stories were obviously a huge part of the King's Quest world. And incorporating Norse mythology makes a lot of sense to me, since it's an extension of that same family of ancient Germanic religion and folklore.

Greek mythology has always been a big part of the King's Quest world too. It's interesting to note, though, that most of the Greek influences in the earlier King's Quest games come from the Perseus myth in particular: KQ3 has Medusa, whose severed head Perseus needed in order to defeat the sea-monster Ceto and save Andromeda (who was being sacrificed to said monster just as Rosella was being sacrificed to the dragon); KQ2 has Pegasus, who was born from Medusa's dripping blood; and the single-eye-sharing witches in KQ4 are clearly inspired by the single-eye-sharing Graeae, whose eye Perseus held ransom in order to learn Medusa's location. And I think it's pretty clear that Roberta Williams was a big fan of the original Clash of the Titans movie, as her portrayals of these characters seem more influenced by that film's version of the Perseus story than, say, Ovid's. And I think Cedric was pretty clearly inspired by the robotic owl sidekick thing in that movie too. Obviously KQ6 incorporated other Greek myths as well -- the labyrinth and the minotaur from the Theseus and Minos stories, the very Greek-inspired Underword sequence, complete with Charon and the River Styx, etc. -- and so I'm not saying that all of your Greek mythology influences need to come from the Perseus story or from Clash of Titans, I'm just pointing things out.

[MusicallyInspired]

You forgot Pandora's Box. And there WAS a mummy in there as well with hieroglyphics and ankhs everywhere. A bit of Egyptian lore as well?

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

And there WAS a mummy in there as well with hieroglyphics and ankhs everywhere. A bit of Egyptian lore as well?

I always thought the mummy was more a nod to classic horror films than actual Egyptian lore.

[MusicallyInspired]

That's true.

[Blackthorne519]

Something, also, to keep in mind is to remember not to stick SO HARD to fitting a genre on King's Quest - what is important, really, is "story". The details are what flavor it, but the essence has always been on story - Sir Graham aids his ailing King in finding three lost treasure; King Graham searches a strange new land to save a fair maiden; Gwydion struggles to free himself from the yoke of oppression and find his way home; Rosella races against time to find a cure for her father..... The story can be simple, but strong.

Mucking it up with TOO much lore, or literary reference, really strays away from King's Quest. The makeup of the world should have the weight of some reality, but also the whimsy of fantasy.


Bt

[Lambonius]

Actual ancient Egyptian elements could work if done correctly. You'd probably want to stylize the designs so that they were more Egyptian-INSPIRED than incorporating real Egyptian mythology. The straight adaptation of real-world historical cultures really isn't something that has been done in any KQ game yet, though the subtle incorporation of design motifs and such shows up now and again.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne519

Something, also, to keep in mind is to remember not to stick SO HARD to fitting a genre on King's Quest - what is important, really, is "story". The details are what flavor it, but the essence has always been on story - Sir Graham aids his ailing King in finding three lost treasure; King Graham searches a strange new land to save a fair maiden; Gwydion struggles to free himself from the yoke of oppression and find his way home; Rosella races against time to find a cure for her father..... The story can be simple, but strong.

Mucking it up with TOO much lore, or literary reference, really strays away from King's Quest. The makeup of the world should have the weight of some reality, but also the whimsy of fantasy.


Bt

Good points, Bt. But you really have to be careful when you say the emphasis is on story. I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, but I get what you are trying to say. The stories are simple, straightforward, and powerful, and not bogged down by ridiculous lore indulgences. There's a HUGE difference between a KQ story, and say...Gabriel Knight 2. Fan games like KQ2+ and TSL have shown just how awkward the KQ world becomes when you try to add too much backstory to it. These characters have to remain archtetypes. They aren't real, and they shouldn't be treated as such. It's the same with the lands and their "histories." KQ6 is just about as deep as any KQ game should ever go in terms of backstory, and even that felt like it was too much at times.

[Feazy]

I've always had an interest in Arthurian legends, as well as Greek, and to a lesser extent, Roman mythology. King's Quest 6 was my first KQ game, and I liked the Arabian vibe of the Isle of the Crown, and the Greek influences on the Winged Ones. When I played KQ7 I liked how the first area you start in seemed like it was ripped straight out of the American Southwest.

As others have said, I don't believe that Tolkien-esque lore really fits with King's Quest. I know that I personally feel as if Tolkien's works have become the standard for most fantasy settings. It really feels overused.

You mention Asian mythology...I don't have much experience with it, and as you say, it seems a little strange given KQ's previous settings, but I think if it's done right it could work out nicely. Every KQ game has taken us to a new setting, why couldn't there be one that's based on Asian mythology? Yes, this is something of a cliche in games, but it's an interesting thought at least.

[Lambonius]

Personally, I think any kind of East Asian setting would be a major no-no for a KQ game. However, I think an Asian character could work--like maybe a traveling merchant "from distant lands," and perhaps he could send you on a quest that was somehow related to Asian mythology. Given the predominantly Western settings and mythology of the series, the only way East Asian stuff would fit is if it were treated as some kind of exotic "other" in the context of the game itself.

[Valiento]

I don't know KQ8 moved towards Babylonian/Mesopotamian mythological inspirtation (Dimension of Death, Sun Mask ('Mask of Eternity'), Bull-headed underworld god, etc)...

Who knows what Roberta would have done if she had been given a chance at another game?

Their actually already a couple of allusions to 'Asian' themed fairy tales in the games already! The nightengales for example, the Mechanical Nightingale especially is based on The Nightengale (a story by Hans Christian Anderson). The caged nightengale is more of an allusion to the The Nightengale a story collected by Andrew Lang in one of his Fairy Books.

Albeit they have each been reinterpreted into middle-eastern, and westernized lands...

Actually in the Barren Region in KQ8, there is alot of Tibeten/Nepal/Himalyan (East Asian), as well as Siberian/Northern China (and border of East Russian/North-East Asian) influence surrounding the Hillmen. Actually some of the music in the Barren Regions associated with the Hillmen has an Eastern Asian flare to it. The gongs near the Stone of Order as well.

There is actually even an optional 'great wall' in one section of the Barren Region, guarded by a lone Hillmen that can be explored (but serves little purpose except to find an extra potion or two).

The Weirdlings themselves live in Mongolian-style yurts and are shown to have Mongolian style shamanism. Also as I recall the music style played near their village is Eastern Asian in origin. Some aspects such as their clothing resembles the clothing worn by the Sherpa people of Nepal.