Gameplay Analysis: Episode 3 (Spoilers!)

[Gman5852]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Iwata asks article.

Wow that actually is a well planned idea. Never once did I think that this is how you learn to play.

[Avistew]

I thought about something while unloading the dishwasher. It might sound to you like the same thing I said above, but it seemed different to me so I thought I'd share.

I was thinking about what existing fans of the genre have some to expect from adventure games. For me, the first things that come to mind are puzzles, item combinations and clicking stuff. That's what defines an adventure game for me.
Now, I realise that the title has "adventure" in it. And I'm not saying that I don't think of a sense of humour, strong characters and a compelling story when I think of adventure games, but to me an AG can be an AG without them. Probably not a good AG, but still one. While without them, it starts feeling like something else, even if it has the story elements (which are hardly exclusive to AGs anyways).

I was thinking, when releasing an AG, AG fans who get it are going to expect a certain thing. Now, people might have different expectations than I do, but I guess I feel mine are reasonable ones.
When creating BTTF to attract new gamers and making it different from what "old-timers" have come to expect, there is a disconnect, of course, and that's what you're seeing here with our reactions.
But also, that means you're building a new set of things that the newcomers will learn to expect.

So if afterwards you throw an AG that's different, one that use oldies would like and want and recognise as familiar, there is going to be that new group who is going to have the same reaction as we're having right now ("why are you changing things? I bought that game because I expected it to be like your other stuff!")

And so it seems to me this "step" is not playing in your favour, unless the change is permanent.
So my worry is that it's the case. That the change is permanent. If you do get a new audience, wouldn't you want to keep it by doing things they have liked in the past and want in the future? And if you create two distinct types of games, the one I consider AGs and the one I'd be more likely to call interactive movie, don't you run the risk of disappointing everyone if you don't label them differently in a very clear way?

@Dashing: that Miyamoto article was very interesting, but I'm not convinced I needed to read it twice in a row.

[waroftheworlds01]

You should do this for the Jurassic park episodes when they come out.

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by waroftheworlds01

You should do this for the Jurassic park episodes when they come out.

That would require him to get them, though, so he won't.

[Jon NA]

Aren't you going to write another analysis for Episode 4, Rather Dashing?

[Avistew]

Originally Posted by Jon NA

Aren't you going to write another analysis for Episode 4, Rather Dashing?

The answer is "No, because he'd have to play it".

[Jon NA]

Why? He doesn't want to? He has bought the whole season ...

[Trenchfoot]

I've been waiting for his review since the new episode was released. It has gotten so extreme reviews (excellent or terribly bad) that I would love to read what he thinks about it.
I imagine that it will be something along the lines of Andrei's review, but more detailed.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Jon NA

Why? He doesn't want to? He has bought the whole season ...

We all do some mistakes in life. You profit whenever you turn back while you're riding on the pathway of mistake.

[Martin McFly]

Originally Posted by Falanca

You profit whenever you turn back while you're riding on the pathway of mistake.

Never give up! Never surrender!

[Rather Dashing]

I tried playing the fourth game when it came out, but it intersected with me obtaining Portal 2. I tried to play it after I finished Portal 2's campaign, but that intersected with me moving out of my dorm and being generally busy with school and intern-related tasks. I tried to play it yesterday, and then I ended up playing Plants vs Zombies for ten straight hours. And then I tried to play it today.

....I honestly can't do it. I can't bring myself to want to continue playing this series. I ran into an open door that I couldn't walk through without clicking on it, and an open fence with an invisible wall in front of it. While the "pill puzzle" requires something that could, potentially, be considered "thought", I just am not compelled to continue this game.

Part of me wants to do a full analysis, to explain why this sort of thing is simply not okay in a measured, intelligent way. Maybe cut back on the sarcasm and jabs this time around. But I honestly do not have the drive anymore. Back to the Future: The Game is easily one of the worst things I have ever played, a sterling interactive example of how not to make a game. If this is the future, I want no part in it. I don't know if I'll ever finish playing these games, I don't know if I'll play episode 5 at all. It's just so dull, so without flavor. There is only so long that terrible can remain fascinating, and I haven't run into enough wholly new atrocities to examine.

I entirely expect that my analysis of Episode 4 will remain a small word file and selection of screenshots detailing the start of the game through Doc Brown's escape.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Understandable reasons

Well, you can do it WITH someone.

The thread we're talking in right now was such a success, people working in Telltale actually gave a damn; a big one, and this is important. Harsh and legit criticism; not everytime someone does that -and does that well. It just, shouldn't be left right in the middle. It's your choice, but I think people need what you may offer.

EDIT: I also want your analysis threads in my BttF:tG DVD.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Falanca

Well, you can do it WITH someone.

I would if I could think of anyone. Honestly, I don't know anyone who would help out with this sort of thing. I know a couple people I could count on to snag a few odd screenshots for me, and I talked with some people about bugs and other minor flaws when making the first game, but the act of actually playing through and noting all my observations was more or less a singular task for me, and a rather daunting one that really had me stressed and exhausted by the end of it.

The thread we're talking in right now was such a success, people working in Telltale actually gave a damn; a big one, and this is important. Harsh and legit criticism; not everytime someone does that -and does that well. It just, shouldn't be left right in the middle. It's your choice, but I think people need what you may offer.

I know that, and honestly that was my main reason for wanting to continue. I felt like that kind of impact was important, and I really appreciated the time the lead designer put into reading it.

EDIT: I also want your analysis threads in my BttF:tG DVD.

Obviously I should fire up fraps, play through the entire series, and create my own running commentary, heh.

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

I would if I could think of anyone. Honestly, I don't know anyone who would help out with this sort of thing. I know a couple people I could count on to snag a few odd screenshots for me, and I talked with some people about bugs and other minor flaws when making the first game, but the act of actually playing through and noting all my observations was more or less a singular task for me, and a rather daunting one that really had me stressed and exhausted by the end of it.

I was thinking of someone playing it FOR you (at least for a portion of it so that you won't get as stressed) while you watching it and catching on the weak points. Not like showing you a quickrun of the episode, but pressing on the obvious issues for you or letting you see the bad decisions in game design. It may be kind of... artificial, perhaps, as you're not always the main player (although I think you're good enough at emphatizing so it may not be that big of a problem) but it'll be surely less tiresome. You still have to sit through it, though :/

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Obviously I should fire up fraps, play through the entire series, and create my own running commentary, heh.

Well, Majus fired up Adobe Flash instead. So why not just firing up your Microsoft Word?

I know I'm delusional.

[Jon NA]

I ran into an open door that I couldn't walk through without clicking on it

Yeah, I found that ridiculous too.

Maybe cut back on the sarcasm and jabs this time around.

I really do prefer to read your articles without the sarcasm, not just for me founding it good to my tastes but so I can share your analysis' with the great people at notgames.org forums. (check that website out, you'll like what they're trying to achieve there, read what not-games.org is all about here. I like to know what are your thought on the not-games project)

I understand all the reasons you gave, but I still suggest you finish it.
Why?
This episode feels a little bit more like an adventure game, all a bit still a flawed one. But you can see some things have changed.

There are some ridiculous things like Marty counting alt1986's Doc as an unreliable person stranger to give Original Doc's notebook to ... but yet there are some good points that make this game at least feels like an adventure game. Like being able to use an item on all characters (the green biscuits) though it's not required of the player to do so to get the plot going. (you can do so just for fun and the good thing about it is that you don't get a predefined absurd reply).

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Falanca

I was thinking of someone playing it FOR you (at least for a portion of it so that you won't get as stressed) while you watching it and catching on the weak points. Not like showing you a quickrun of the episode, but pressing on the obvious issues for you or letting you see the bad decisions in game design. It may be kind of... artificial, perhaps, as you're not always the main player (although I think you're good enough at emphatizing so it may not be that big of a problem) but it'll be surely less tiresome. You still have to sit through it, though :/

I can't see that working. So much of my process for this analysis involved very direct contact with the thing. It was less a methodical stab at every possible action(at least later on) and more a targeted "Can I do this? What if I did THAT first? Can I press this button instead?" Being able to switch gears fairly quickly was somewhat important to being able to try so many options in a short period.

Well, Majus fired up Adobe Flash instead. So why not just firing up your Microsoft Word?

I know I said "Word File", but I actually only use Google Docs or OpenOffice(which I then upload to Google Docs later).

...also, wait, what are you saying here?

Anyway, does anyone know if I can take the existing controller support for BttF: The Game and map the screenshot key to some unused button on my 360 controller?

[Falanca]

Oh yeah, I also want to know what you think about the storyline, Dashing. Mostly because you seemed pretty frustrated when Marty and Young Emmett rejoined in the second episode, and, well, it's the second reunite.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

I know I said "Word File", but I actually only use Google Docs or OpenOffice(which I then upload to Google Docs later).

Uh, I mean, your Word software. My bad.

What I'm saying is that I'd be gladly ordering the DVD just to read long .DOC files. No need for all the video and sound and all that, it would take a lot of work that I wouldn't want, for example, even my greatest enemy to suffer through.

[Jon NA]

Originally Posted by Falanca

Oh yeah, I also want to know what you think about the storyline, Dashing. Mostly because you seemed pretty frustrated when Marty and Young Emmett rejoined in the second episode, and, well, it's the second reunite.

Indeed.
There's a truly interesting emotional conversation between young doc and Marty towards the end al la first episode's strongly performed rendered dramatic scene between Marty and young Emmet.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by Jon NA

I really do prefer to read your articles without the sarcasm, not just for me founding it good to my tastes but so I can share your analysis' with the great people at notgames.org forums. (check that website out, you'll like what they're trying to achieve there, read what not-games.org is all about here. I like to know what are your thought on the not-games project)

I read the thing you linked to and the "About" section, as well as a couple blog entries, and honestly I still don't know exactly what this is about. It came off to me as a lot of pretentious wording adding up to, well, nothing, but obviously that was not the intended perception. It could be that my brain feels somewhat preoccupied at the moment, in which case it might just be that I'm having trouble digesting any slightly vague messages.

I understand all the reasons you gave, but I still suggest you finish it.
Why?
This episode feels a little bit more like an adventure game, all a bit still a flawed one. But you can see some things have changed.

There are some ridiculous things like Marty counting alt1986's Doc as an unreliable person stranger to give Original Doc's notebook to ... but yet there are some good points that make this game at least feels like an adventure game. Like being able to use an item on all characters (the green biscuits) though it's not required of the player to do so to get the plot going. (you can do so just for fun and the good thing about it is that you don't get a predefined absurd reply).

Actually, that's part of the problem, in a way. A lot of what kept me going when going through Episode 3 was the fact that the entire period of player interaction was filled with examples of how to make one of the worst games ever made. Every step of the way was so broken that it was fascinating to look at WHY it was so broken. From what I've played, Episode 4, on the other hand, it just...bad, in a boring way, rather than bad in a fascinating example sort of way, if that makes sense. It's technically better, but less interesting, heh.

Originally Posted by Falanca

What I'm saying is that I'd be gladly ordering the DVD just to read long .DOC files. No need for all the video and sound and all that, it would take a lot of work that I wouldn't want, for example, even my greatest enemy to suffer through.

Oh, okay. Right now, my file only covers the portion of the game set in the Citizen Plus...uh, "prison"? It is probably the Bureau of Discipline. Anyway, right now it'd be a relatively short read, though obviously a good deal longer than many of the reviews in the Review Thread.

[Jon NA]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

I read the thing you linked to and the "About" section, as well as a couple blog entries, and honestly I still don't know exactly what this is about. It came off to me as a lot of pretentious wording adding up to, well, nothing, but obviously that was not the intended perception. It could be that my brain feels somewhat preoccupied at the moment, in which case it might just be that I'm having trouble digesting any slightly vague messages.

I'm sorry. I should have introduced the origin of that project better then.
The design challenge that not-games.org offers is originated from the heads of the "tale-of-tales" company whom made "The Path".
I suggest reading the forums.The notgames.org's forums introduces the project better than the blog post since they are not vague and are simple discussions so you can read them in your present condition.

All in all, it's a place in which creative and successful indie developers (like the developers of Amnesia: The dark decent) and other creative yet-to-be-successful developers and people interested in the cause gather around and discuss re-inventing games and game design. Visiting the forums is the best way to get to know the inquisitive.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Actually, that's part of the problem, in a way. A lot of what kept me going when going through Episode 3 was the fact that the entire period of player interaction was filled with examples of how to make one of the worst games ever made. Every step of the way was so broken that it was fascinating to look at WHY it was so broken. From what I've played, Episode 4, on the other hand, it just...bad, in a boring way, rather than bad in a fascinating example sort of way, if that makes sense. It's technically better, but less interesting, heh.

It perfectly makes sense. I understand completely.

Although you can still pull analysis-worthy bits out of it, like you mentioned the door problem earlier.
I was so interested by the story's twist and it's dark theme that I forgot that door problem but you can, say, control yourself, you can manage to stay focused to find the analysis-worthy bits.

I have to say that even if it's not analysis worthy, it has an interesting emotional conversation between young doc and Marty towards the end of the episode which is very similar to the first episode's strongly performed rendered dramatic scene between Marty and young Emmet which I've heard you thought was the only good thing about the 1st episode.

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

Oh, okay. Right now, my file only covers the portion of the game set in the Citizen Plus...uh, "prison"? It is probably the Bureau of Discipline. Anyway, right now it'd be a relatively short read, though obviously a good deal longer than many of the reviews in the Review Thread.

I'd like to read that article too.