The Newly Regenerated Doctor Who Thread

[tabstis]

Originally Posted by Tjibbbe

From this topic, a couple of pages back (can't claim I found this out by myself, sadly):

Sorry but the woman on the left is definitely NOT Frances Barber who plays Madame Kovarian. On a related note, a check on Wikipedia reveals that Kovarian will be appearing in Let's Kill Hitler. Also, I'm betting now that the adult River Song is the one in the space suit who kills the Doctor in the first episode for reasons unknown but I highly doubt that he is dead permenantly.

[Ribs]

Moffat has, however, succesfully created a character that people will 'The new companion is River regenerated!' to. Because we've seen the last river and the first one, but not the in between ones.

[coolsome]

River Song must be Rose Tyler in one of her regenerations

[dumpling321]

I just finished the space museum arc and I have a question about the doctor changing history...

It's said very clearly in the aztecs arc that the travelers cannot change history, the doctor further explains to vicki in the romans arc that even if he hadn't given nero the idea of burning rome, he would have gotten the idea anyways, from another source...

So I was wondering, during the future arcs, where they're on alien planets, or on the future earth, aren't they technically changing history? When they help the menoptra fight the zarbi, or when they help the xerons defeat the Moroks... heck in the space museum arc the xerons literally tell vicki that if they hadn't helped fight the moroks they would never have defeated them... doesn't that change history, even if it isn't the travelers history?

Even the dalek invasion of earth was messed up, are you seriously going to tell me the rebels would have beaten the daleks without the help of the doctor or his companions? The daleks were so close to hitting the core of the earth, and the humans were still fiddling around with their little acid bomb that didn't work...

It's like the writers of the show didn't even realize that the future episodes were history, even if they were only history to people in the distant future, except that can't be true, espeially since vicki specifically mentions learning about the dalek invasion of earth in her history books...

xDD maybe i'm just overanalyzing this, maybe it would have all worked out without the doctor and his friends, but it's still something I've been thinking about for half of season 2 =D

[Friar]

Originally Posted by dumpling321

I just finished the space museum arc and I have a question about the doctor changing history...

It's said very clearly in the aztecs arc that the travelers cannot change history, the doctor further explains to vicki in the romans arc that even if he hadn't given nero the idea of burning rome, he would have gotten the idea anyways, from another source...

So I was wondering, during the future arcs, where they're on alien planets, or on the future earth, aren't they technically changing history? When they help the menoptra fight the zarbi, or when they help the xerons defeat the Moroks... heck in the space museum arc the xerons literally tell vicki that if they hadn't helped fight the moroks they would never have defeated them... doesn't that change history, even if it isn't the travelers history?

Even the dalek invasion of earth was messed up, are you seriously going to tell me the rebels would have beaten the daleks without the help of the doctor or his companions? The daleks were so close to hitting the core of the earth, and the humans were still fiddling around with their little acid bomb that didn't work...

It's like the writers of the show didn't even realize that the future episodes were history, even if they were only history to people in the distant future, except that can't be true, espeially since vicki specifically mentions learning about the dalek invasion of earth in her history books...

xDD maybe i'm just overanalyzing this, maybe it would have all worked out without the doctor and his friends, but it's still something I've been thinking about for half of season 2 =D

I've always thought that too. It's best not to think about it.

[Rather Dashing]

Originally Posted by dumpling321

I just finished the space museum arc and I have a question about the doctor changing history...

It seems that the rules about time travel have loosened since the Time War. A few major events are still "fixed" in time(the 2057 Mars incident, the Time War itself), but time seems to be "in flux" and changeable a great deal more in the post-2005 series. The Doctor seems to have a pretty good handle on what events are so important that they can't be altered, though. It seems that saving things is more okay when other time travelers are involved, and it seems the "intended" line of events is very nice to humans for some reason.

[Darth Marsden]

When it comes to the example in The Aztecs, that's quite easily explained. The Doctor knows that Barbara cannot change the very nature of an entire culture, and is attempting to convince her not to try by telling her that history will always happen the way it's been recorded.

When it comes to other events in history being changed... wibbly wobbly, timey wimey.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by Rather Dashing

It seems that the rules about time travel have loosened since the Time War. A few major events are still "fixed" in time(the 2057 Mars incident, the Time War itself), but time seems to be "in flux" and changeable a great deal more in the post-2005 series. The Doctor seems to have a pretty good handle on what events are so important that they can't be altered, though. It seems that saving things is more okay when other time travelers are involved, and it seems the "intended" line of events is very nice to humans for some reason.

You know, the guy above hasn't watched the new series at all and was basing it on the early Hartnells, so maybe saying things like The Time War is a bit much.


Here's my interpretation of it: The Time Lords were not Time Lords at a point. The universe existed before the Time Lords as well, but when the Time Lords were first created that was The Definitive Universe. Now, the Time Lords have a specific rule to not interfere. However, the Doctor knows he can hop from planet to planet and make sure this alien menace doesn't get away because in the long run it doesn't change the basic timeline. However, there are moments (say for example, the French Revolution, seeing as that was in season one) where time has to go one way. The Doctor cannot change the outcome of these key moments, no matter how much he wants, or else he would completely change the time stream, to the point where it would turn into a paradox because perhaps the fact that that one movement did not occur led to the Time lords never existing. It's really complicated, in any way, and the new showrunner has a much easier philosophy to follow: It's Timey-Wimey spacey-wacey stuff.

[coolsome]

I think that eye patch bitch's plan to to swap Melody with a flesh ganger was thought up when she watched Eastenders.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by coolsome

I think that eye patch bitch's plan to to swap Melody with a flesh ganger was thought up when she watched Eastenders.

I was thinking for a minute we'd get ANOTHER ganger swap out, but this time with The Doctor realizing he had been taken during the black out thing and was being thrown into a supernova or something as the Cliffhanger.

Also: the only cameo that surprised me was Danny Boy. It did make me cheer though.

Also: Big Finish sale. Yay! I also chose to get the First Lost Story as well, the Nightmare Fair, for some reason.

[ShaggE]

About the last episode:

WHAT.

That is all.

[LuigiHann]

Bunches of tiny mid-sentence spoilers just makes your posts annoying to read, guys.

Huge spoiler blocks are where it's at.

Spoilers for "A Good Man Goes To War" and the couple episodes before that:

I was a bit disappointed that River's identity was exactly what I thought it'd be. I was hoping they'd come up with an answer that would surprise me.

Also, this is the second episode in a row to end in a "game-changing cliffhanger" that, at least for me, loses a bit of thunder due to the minute or so of build-up before it. I didn't see the "Amy is fake" thing coming through the whole Almost People story, until the Doctor started talking and talking about it. I just think they could have cut that down a bit to make the actual zap-sploosh bit somewhat more shocking. Same thing this episode with River's identity: through all her talking, there's really only one way it could go. Her conversation with the Doctor was reasonably ambiguous and left me guessing for a minute, but I think her conversation with Amy should have had the reveal first and then the explanation, since putting the explanation first spoiled the reveal.

In fact, using that prop with Melody's name sewn into it, you could have had the doctor figure it out, and gleefully declare that everything is okay, while Amy is freaking out, and then have Amy start to read it as the (dying?) Lorna explains the words she chose... And just as Amy starts to understand, then River shows up. Of course really, it doesn't matter quite what order they reveal it in, since the basic premise of "episode about saving Amy's baby" and "episode where we find out who River is" being the same episode kind of spoiled itself for the most part.

Also, random thought here, spoilers for the Almost People storyline and major spoilers for the Silence in the Library story if you missed that one:

The Flesh is usually used to create avatars of living people who control them in real-time, whether or not they're aware of that. But in the Rebel Flesh story we see that data input into the Flesh can create doppelgangers that function independently even after the original person dies. The Doctor even says something to the effect of the Tardis is able to stabilize these gangers to the point where they're effectively human.

And...

River "dies" in the Library story, but thanks to the neural relay and the virtual computer world, her consciousness is saved forever.

Soo...

If he really felt like it, the Doctor could probably "save" River by going back to the library and using the neural relay system to take her back out of the computer and create a Flesh version of her, and then make that being human.

Granted, I don't particularly expect them to follow up on that because A) they could have brought her back as an Auton or something earlier if they really felt like it and B) the series doesn't usually pull elements that specific from episodes that were that long ago and C) since we know the doctor can meet her again and again at different points in her timeline, bringing her "dead" self back wouldn't serve much narrative purpose other than to give her an opportunity to die again, which wouldn't be much fun

But still, I wonder what might happen if Amy gets a hold of either the Doctor's or River's blue notebook, now that she knows. I imagine she won't be very happy if she knows that the Doctor knows how River dies, so she might force him to revisit that.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by LuigiHann

lotso text bear

Or... Maybe the River is SotL is a ganger, who was taken by The Doctor at The Singing Towers who instantly woke up at some safe location with The Doctor. HAPPY ENDING.

[FitzoliverJ]

Peter Darvil-Evans, the editor of the Dr Who novels in teh 1990s, argued that the Time Lords were the first civilisation in the universe. Therefore, everything after their time period is the future, and is therefore up-for-grabs UNLESS somebody has already been there and 'crystalised' it. So, since the Doctor has been to Earth in the year 3000, he can't change anything in the year 2000. But if he's never been to Planet X, he has a free hand.

[Friar]

I also don't get the non-interference policy. They killed the second doctor for it, and almost killed sixie for it, yet he seemed to do it all the time!

[coolsome]

Originally Posted by Friar

I also don't get the non-interference policy. They killed the second doctor for it, and almost killed sixie for it, yet he seemed to do it all the time!

They where politically motivated rather then leveling justice. The sixth doctor's one was to cover up why they moved earth they covered it up really well cos I have no idea why they did it.

[Friar]

Originally Posted by coolsome

They where politically motivated rather then leveling justice. The sixth doctor's one was to cover up why they moved earth they covered it up really well cos I have no idea why they did it.

So I wasn't the only one who was a tad confused by that series? That's good to hear! I really must rewatch that soon, and the special features.

Oh yeah, I took some screenshots from saturdays episode, for use as backgrounds.
Spoilers, Obviously.
One
Two

Bonus one from last year

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by coolsome

They where politically motivated rather then leveling justice. The sixth doctor's one was to cover up why they moved earth they covered it up really well cos I have no idea why they did it.

The funny thing is they moved it literally nowhere. They moved it to somewhere barely different. It's like the Time Lords accidentally nudged it just a little bit. From TV Tropes: Sci-Fi Writers Have no Sense of Scale - Probably the most spectacular example in is in this story, where Earth was apparently hidden by moving its entire solar system several million miles, which is the celestial equivalent of hiding from your date in an empty movie theater by leaning an inch to the left. For scale, Mercury never comes within 28 million miles of our Sun, despite being its closest planet.

Also, I didn't intend to but I listened to most of the Marian Conspiracy. It's really quite good.

Also: The mysterious astronaut from Puzzle Agent has new significance thanks to Doctor Who.

[Friar]

Wow. I just had to post this. (A good man goes to war minor spoilers)
It seems Moffat was an avid fan back in the 90's and participated in online discussions. Here's him talking about what became a plot detail on saturday's episode.

So that awesome speech of River's was 16 years in the making.

[coolsome]

I think the cot said Sweetie that's why when Melody showed him what it said he realized who she was with out it saying anyone's name on it.