Alice: Madness Returns to include Alice 1

[Elvenmonk]

Because the game was bad.

And it felt like I was playing a Tim Burton movie.

[Martin McFly]

Originally Posted by Elvenmonk

Because the game was bad.

And it felt like I was playing a Tim Burton movie.

It's hard for me to compare American McGee's Alice and Alice in Wonderland (2010). When I heard Tim Burton was doing Alice in Wonderland, I expected American McGee's Alice in terms of film plot and atmosphere. I was quite disappointed with Tim Burton's take on Alice but I suppose since Disney was attached, he couldn't exactly go all out. American McGee did feel a little like a Tim Burton movie but after seeing the actual movie, it goes to show that they're nothing alike.

Back on topic, it's really a toss up on whether you'd like Madness or not. Graphically and story wise, Madness is superior to its predecessor but the general theme and characters remain constant. I also find that the controls are more suited to a console making it easier to play however that is just my take on it. Perhaps watch the first ten minutes of the game and make a judgement call.

[Irishmile]

I just can not get excited about this game... I never liked the alice story and the gothic makeover does not interest me... the game play seems pretty generic.

[Elvenmonk]

Originally Posted by Martin McFly

It's hard for me to compare American McGee's Alice and Alice in Wonderland (2010). When I heard Tim Burton was doing Alice in Wonderland, I expected American McGee's Alice in terms of film plot and atmosphere. I was quite disappointed with Tim Burton's take on Alice but I suppose since Disney was attached, he couldn't exactly go all out. American McGee did feel a little like a Tim Burton movie but after seeing the actual movie, it goes to show that they're nothing alike.

Back on topic, it's really a toss up on whether you'd like Madness or not. Graphically and story wise, Madness is superior to its predecessor but the general theme and characters remain constant. I also find that the controls are more suited to a console making it easier to play however that is just my take on it. Perhaps watch the first ten minutes of the game and make a judgement call.

I'm not saying Alice and Wonderland 2010. I'm saying it felt like a Timburton movie. Not the Alice movie, it just felt like a Timburton movie.

[Martin McFly]

Originally Posted by Elvenmonk

I'm not saying Alice and Wonderland 2010. I'm saying it felt like a Timburton movie. Not the Alice movie, it just felt like a Timburton movie.

Ah, in that case, I'll have to agree with you on that one.

[Elvenmonk]

Originally Posted by Martin McFly

Ah, in that case, I'll have to agree with you on that one.

Which I find pretty funny because if you go to the American McGee forums all they do is shit on Tim Burton and talk about how McGee is so much better and is nothing like Burton at all.

[dumpling321]

Originally Posted by Elvenmonk

Which I find pretty funny because if you go to the American McGee forums all they do is shit on Tim Burton and talk about how McGee is so much better and is nothing like Burton at all.

Yes mcgee is like burton in the fact that he does these creepy gothicy type games, however, I believe that when mcgee does something right his work has a completly different feel...

I love some of burton's works, but mcgee's works take on a bit more of a psychological edge to them, you can actually analyze AMA using Freudian psychology... and you can also invest yourself in the characters, which is something i've almost never been able to do with any of burton's movies...

it's like comparing God of war and devil may cry, from a laymans point of view they might look similar, but when you actually get into them, DMC is much more complex, whereas GoW is just flashy...

[Elvenmonk]

Originally Posted by dumpling321

Yes mcgee is like burton in the fact that he does these creepy gothicy type games, however, I believe that when mcgee does something right his work has a completly different feel...

I love some of burton's works, but mcgee's works take on a bit more of a psychological edge to them, you can actually analyze AMA using Freudian psychology... and you can also invest yourself in the characters, which is something i've almost never been able to do with any of burton's movies...

it's like comparing God of war and devil may cry, from a laymans point of view they might look similar, but when you actually get into them, DMC is much more complex, whereas GoW is just flashy...

I'm going to highlight some problems I had.
See, I've played Alice and Grimm and both felt bad. Actually, both were bad. They both felt like original-esqe concepts but failed to achieve that. As I oftent felt like I've seen this before, and better.

the second part I highlighted I don't quite understand. It really feels like that he's just mashing crap together to be "more disturbing". I don't get the more psychological part, especially after taking some Psych classes and having a Psych major for a brother who constantly lectures me on that crap.

The third part I've a huge problem with as that man was insane. He also gets way too much credit for getting almost EVERYTHING WRONG, or unprovable. Infact just about anything he has "proven" right someone else did and he either took credit or they gave it to him post-death.

4th part: I can't seem to connect with the characters. They all seem so bland and generic it's pretty laughable to me.

Part 5: DMC is nothing but flash. GoW is nothing but violent flash. Sure the first DMC had a bit more then flash, as did GoW, but once both of them hit the second installment (not counting GoW's phone game) they both became all flash.

Too add: Not a Burton fan either.

[Martin McFly]

Originally Posted by Elvenmonk

the second part I highlighted I don't quite understand. It really feels like that he's just mashing crap together to be "more disturbing". I don't get the more psychological part, especially after taking some Psych classes and having a Psych major for a brother who constantly lectures me on that crap.

If you read the Casebook that came with the original game, you'll see that it centers around the concepts of ego, superego and id. It's very interesting to read and deals with Alice's more psychological issues; something that you're unable to fully experience within the game itself.

4th part: I can't seem to connect with the characters. They all seem so bland and generic it's pretty laughable to me.

Unless you feel guilty about your parent's untimely death or perhaps enjoy making cyborgs out of living creatures, I can't imagine you'd be able to identify with the characters on a personal level. Personally, I think identifying with the characters isn't a priority with this sort of game. Seeing the pain that Alice is going through and wanting to help her overcome her madness is what drives the game.

Too add: Not a Burton fan either.

Yeah, that might be where your main dislike of the game stems from. As much as I enjoy the games, I can admit that it does feel Burton-esque and if you're not interested in that sort of idea, I can understand how that might be a turn off.

[dumpling321]

Originally Posted by Martin McFly

Unless you feel guilty about your parent's untimely death or perhaps enjoy making cyborgs out of living creatures, I can't imagine you'd be able to identify with the characters on a personal level. Personally, I think identifying with the characters isn't a priority with this sort of game. Seeing the pain that Alice is going through and wanting to help her overcome her madness is what drives the game.

xD you basically responded the way I was going to respond...

I think I can basically connect with alice because my father died when I was pretty young, It was really hard for me, and I've always felt a little guilty that I wasn't at the hospital when he actually passed away...

[Elvenmonk]

Originally Posted by dumpling321

xD you basically responded the way I was going to respond...

I think I can basically connect with alice because my father died when I was pretty young, It was really hard for me, and I've always felt a little guilty that I wasn't at the hospital when he actually passed away...

If you were going to respond that way then why did you say "you can invest your self in the characters". That's the same as you can releate and such. They all felt like genericly drawn out characters, with some bland voice acting thrown on too.


Eh, I had my grandfather die when I was young. Didn't care. My dad went to prision before that, also didn't care.
So while different experinces I still don't find that as a reason to connect.

Originally Posted by Martin McFly

If you read the Casebook that came with the original game, you'll see that it centers around the concepts of ego, superego and id. It's very interesting to read and deals with Alice's more psychological issues; something that you're unable to fully experience within the game itself.



Unless you feel guilty about your parent's untimely death or perhaps enjoy making cyborgs out of living creatures, I can't imagine you'd be able to identify with the characters on a personal level. Personally, I think identifying with the characters isn't a priority with this sort of game. Seeing the pain that Alice is going through and wanting to help her overcome her madness is what drives the game.



Yeah, that might be where your main dislike of the game stems from. As much as I enjoy the games, I can admit that it does feel Burton-esque and if you're not interested in that sort of idea, I can understand how that might be a turn off.

The third part first: Well, this was incase anyone came up and tried to call me a Burton fan. Which I find funny as the guy above me, forget the name too lazy to scroll up, basically just went on of how they're different and how Burton < McGee. You however seem to agree with me on that argument.

Second part: While I am not russian (or where ever Niko was from) I felt for Niko from GTA4. He was actually the first GTA character I liked[and the only reason I continue to play that crappy game]. I never went through what he went through but I could atleast feel something for him and somehow feel relateable, or identifiable if you wish. It doesn't matter if you went through the same experiences or not. It's all about how well the story is written, how the characters are fleshed out, and such. If everything feels so fake, over the top, and etc. Even if you went through the same exact experiences it's highly unlikely you'll feel for the character(s), or even the media that's trying to entertain you.

First part: (also sorry for going backwards) I don't have the casebook as I didn't get the game when it came out. You shouldn't put a main story aspect of the game in something that can be lost, or ignored, from the original purchase. While I can not honestly give points for what may or may not be in the casebook I can deduct points, as it's not something I possess. I can't judge a game based on something I don't have that's apparently supposed to make it better.

[dumpling321]

Originally Posted by Elvenmonk

If you were going to respond that way then why did you say "you can invest your self in the characters". That's the same as you can releate and such. They all felt like genericly drawn out characters, with some bland voice acting thrown on too.


First part: (also sorry for going backwards) I don't have the casebook as I didn't get the game when it came out. You shouldn't put a main story aspect of the game in something that can be lost, or ignored, from the original purchase. While I can not honestly give points for what may or may not be in the casebook I can deduct points, as it's not something I possess. I can't judge a game based on something I don't have that's apparently supposed to make it better.

Note: I mentioned that that was how I was going to respond, THEN I qualified it by explaining why I could personally relate to the characters...

The casebook was included in EVERY copy of the game (minus used copies, and the ps3/360 release, which AMR has a short plot guide under the extras) however you didn't really need it, the game itself was something extremely special, it had enough story to make you think, and the casebook was there to expand on what you played and make the game more enjoyable... to tell the truth, even without the casebook it's incredibly obvious that alot of the plot is based around psychoanalysis, heck you can even analyze it with jungian psychology if you try hard enough.

To tell the truth, I don't see me changing your mind, I've said my piece... I enjoy the game, the first time I played it was a very special moment in my life, I couldn't stop grinning the day they announced AMR. however you might not, it's your call, I probibly dislike some things that you're passionate about =D So Que Sera Sera =)

[Martin McFly]

Originally Posted by Elvenmonk

Second part: While I am not russian (or where ever Niko was from) I felt for Niko from GTA4. He was actually the first GTA character I liked[and the only reason I continue to play that crappy game]. I never went through what he went through but I could atleast feel something for him and somehow feel relateable, or identifiable if you wish. It doesn't matter if you went through the same experiences or not. It's all about how well the story is written, how the characters are fleshed out, and such. If everything feels so fake, over the top, and etc. Even if you went through the same exact experiences it's highly unlikely you'll feel for the character(s), or even the media that's trying to entertain you.

I should have clarifed but I meant to relate on a literal level.

By what you're describing, it sounds like you dislike the characterization of the characters themselves. I can't change your opinion on the characterizations since everyone will view the characters differently.

On that same note, when you consider the source material, you'll have to expect some over-the-top scenes/characters. Alice doesn't try to blur the lines of reality and fiction but is inspired the original stories and keeps that concept in mind.

Again, this is just my personal view on the matter. I'm not going to try and force you to like the game.

First part: (also sorry for going backwards)

Don't worry about it. I'm actually glad that I'm able to have an educated debate with someone; usually all I see is either 'OMG Alice rox! How could you hate this game, you troll!' or 'This game blows and anyone who likes it is an idiot.' so thank you for your points.

I don't have the casebook as I didn't get the game when it came out. You shouldn't put a main story aspect of the game in something that can be lost, or ignored, from the original purchase. While I can not honestly give points for what may or may not be in the casebook I can deduct points, as it's not something I possess. I can't judge a game based on something I don't have that's apparently supposed to make it better.

Have you thought about reading the case book online? Of course, if you're uninterested in the game, it's unlikely to change your mind but it certainly shows the thought behind the game and it does enhance the story itself.

Before you deduct points, you have to realise that when it originally came out, everyone owned the casebook if they purchased the game. Since you purchased the game later on, you can hardly blame the game for not providing you with a casebook; blame your seller. I'm certainly not suggesting that you give the game 'points' for the casebook but until you read it, you are lacking information that completes/enhances the game.

Sorry, I got a little carried away.

[DAISHI]

Freud is getting way too bad of a rep these days. The whole point of the new school was to standardize his findings in somewhat repeatable testing conditions.