About the end...

[puzzlebox]

I just edited your thread title, so people who haven't finished the game yet won't get spoiled scrolling through the forum.

[mirroman478]

Oh sorry about the title. Should be more careful.

[mirroman478]

huh? why have these two threads merged? One thread is about the three Marty's the other is about Kid and Edna

[DAISHI]

Remember guys, when in doubt: Science is magic; or, A Wizard did it.

[Vainamoinen]

Both threads are about the ending of the game, and the title still fits, hamza.
Same spoilers for everyone.

On topic:

Originally Posted by mirroman478

1.Edna burned down Kid's Speakesy and tried to burn down another one of his
2. Edna hates alcohol enough to burn down its establishments, why would she get together with someone who makes them?
3. Kid tried to kill Edna, why would she want to get married to him?

I can think of a lot. Kid Tannen had, in 1931, already killed countless people who were in his way (as evidenced in the speakeasy caricatures). We simply must assume that (a) in 1931, he would have to get at least life in prison and no chance of parole, (b) Edna knew this and would never even come close to this murderer and (c) even if Tannen did get out of prison and Edna would somehow start to like him, we're still looking at some solid 30 to 40 years in prison, leaving Edna alone in that time; and that beats the psychological purpose of this story development. Edna was "given" Kid to lessen Marty's and the player's possible bad conscience by taking Doc "away from her". This failed; and possibly as point (d) Biff Tannen is still conceived, so according to TTG's established history, Kid would still have to break out of prison for three hours in ca. 1937, thus lengthening his incarceration.

Secondly, also from a storytelling point of view, the character of Kid Tannen is beyond repair. Even if Tannen miraculously found his way to a better self, the player would have to SEE that development, at least the beginning of it, in the game. Nothing like that occurred here, making the Edna-Kid pairing even harder to swallow.

[daeva0123]

I can see the possibility that these three marty's are some how a consequence of 1986 having been changed 3 times with the temporal duplicate throughout the episodes.

1st Marty: - kind of how regular marty should turn out; married to jen and has er... 12 kids(?) = result of episode 5 version of 1986.

2nd marty: - blue marty talks about being married to tiff tannen. He could be from the future of FCB timeline who never marries jen.

3rd Marty: - this could be the one from the timeline ruled by the tannen family. All the running from mob thugs have toughened him up.

Or it could all be a joke, which I enjoyed just as much

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

I've been debating several times whether or not alternate futures can affect the past. Ultimately I came to the conclusion they can;

In the trip back to 1955 in part II we see Marty from part I (twin pines mall) as well as biff from 2015 lone pines mall timeline despite the fact that both these timelines were not current one and biff may be dead by 2015 in that timeline.

In episodes 3 and 4 of the game which were FCB timeline, there is plenty of evidence of 'old doc' still making the trip to 1931 (him being in FCB's picture, the fact everyone still remembers Carl Sagan)

So I'm sure we are in agreement that 2015 will not play out the same way we saw in part II due to changes to the timeline. So lets say in the current version of the timeline, biff gets a time machine again in 2015 and travels back to november 12th 1955, we'd have 2 different versions of Biff from 2 timelines. So this is the same rationale you can use for the 3 marty's.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by Michael J Fox is Canadian

I've been debating several times whether or not alternate futures can affect the past. Ultimately I came to the conclusion they can;

In the trip back to 1955 in part II we see Marty from part I (twin pines mall) as well as biff from 2015 lone pines mall timeline despite the fact that both these timelines were not current one and biff may be dead by 2015 in that timeline.

In episodes 3 and 4 of the game which were FCB timeline, there is plenty of evidence of 'old doc' still making the trip to 1931 (him being in FCB's picture, the fact everyone still remembers Carl Sagan)

So I'm sure we are in agreement that 2015 will not play out the same way we saw in part II due to changes to the timeline. So lets say in the current version of the timeline, biff gets a time machine again in 2015 and travels back to november 12th 1955, we'd have 2 different versions of Biff from 2 timelines. So this is the same rationale you can use for the 3 marty's.

I agree with you 100%. This is the same example I use to explain how multiple timelines can affect the final timeline, even if those timelines have been erased.

Hell, even in 1885 in BTTF3, Doc and Marty have both arrived from different timelines. Doc has arrived from the repaired Lone Pine timeline (where the ravine is named Clayton Ravine, the Delorean wasn't in the mine and there was no tombstone). Marty arrives from the 'Shonash' timeline (where the ravine is named Shonash Ravine (though Marty remembers the original timeline), the Delorean was in the mine and there was a tombstone). The arrival of Doc from the Lone Pine timeline, combined with that of Marty from the Shonash timeline, results in the Eastwood timeline. Now, the timelines both Doc and Marty arrived from have been erased, and yet their actions (and in Marty's case, what he learned in the erased Shonash timeline) are instrumental in the creation of the Eastwood timeline.

[WareKurt]

The confusing thing with your examples are that those alternate timeline people are different people. Like its Doc&Marty or Doc&Biff&Marty but never the same guy.

Yes there were 2 Martys in BTTF2 1955 but there's a question too; which Marty was that on the stage, TP or LP or even another Marty?

I personally think LP has to get erased with his first trip because if he didn't, TP Marty would eventually have to get erased. Also if LP didn't get erased, events in 1955 would now be slightly different since LP Marty is a slightly different guy. This would mean with every trip of the next alternate, events in the past are slightly changed so it renders things much more complex, more suitable for paradoxes. Therefore I guess we all believe it was TP Marty in BTTF2 1955 on the stage.

So I think this alternate selves coexisting issue never took place in the movies.

Also I always believed that there has to be an "original" who is making the first trip in BTTF universe. And alternate younger selves somehow get erased when they reach that moment in their life spans. If original somehow endangers his existance, he gets erased.

So I really don't get how is it possible. 2 of those Martys shouldn't be able to appear at the end of the game.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

think of it this way; at one point in time there was a timeline where only only one future marty shows up in 1986. Then the timeline changed (probably through time travel) so that a second marty showed up. Then it changed again so a 3rd marty shows up.

Yes i'm well aware normally we see things from the earliest version of the timestream but remember the future always trumps the past. So from docs perspective he wouldnt remember the original timeline where he's not visited by marty in 1955. Likewise even though a timeline existed where marty is not visited by his future self in 1986, marty would remember this (or the timelines where he was only visited by 1 or 2 versions of himself). If you asked these future martys what they remember on June 15th 1986 they'd each remember either not being visited by a future self or only 1 or 2 future selves growing up.

Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty

Now keep in mind that because they are time displaced, they wouldnt fade out. So silver marty would return to his present and find it's now the blue timeline and then bue marty would return to his present and find its the black timeline. Depending on what events cause the timelines to change, it's possible this 3 keep going back and back to restore their respective timelines. Eventually they all arrive on this date because it is the earliest they can go (they dont want to intercept marty before he leaves for 1931 to risk a paradox)

4) this is the timeline we see. 3 marty's come from the future. So it's possible that upon seeing the future marty's individual timelines, marty will be able to choose the one he likes best based on the decisions he makes.

[Shadowknight1]

Let's also remember this. Even Doc Brown was confused as **** as to how all that was happening. If the Doc can't figure it out, what chance do we have?

[WareKurt]

Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty

The problem is this. In BTTF1, TP Marty goes to 1955 and alters his life. BUT, when that altered LP Marty goes back to 1955 at the end of the film, now there aren't 2 Martys back in 1955! In BTTF2, we don't see 2 younger Martys TP and LP together. For some reason, selves who travel past don't stack up there, only one survives. Others get erased, merged or whatever, but only 1 remains.

Therefore if silver Marty is the earliest one, Blue and Black should have been vanished when they travelled just like LP did. What if Blue and Black are from slightly different life spans? That cannot be because if silver one is the earliest, next alternates have to follow his steps somehow.

Let's also remember this. Even Doc Brown was confused as **** as to how all that was happening. If the Doc can't figure it out, what chance do we have?

Yeah I hope TTG explains this in the future because if this was just a joke, I don't like it. The ending of the TV series Lost was the worst ending that I hated most in my life and now this would become the second, if it's just a joke.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by Michael J Fox is Canadian

think of it this way; at one point in time there was a timeline where only only one future marty shows up in 1986. Then the timeline changed (probably through time travel) so that a second marty showed up. Then it changed again so a 3rd marty shows up.

Yes i'm well aware normally we see things from the earliest version of the timestream but remember the future always trumps the past. So from docs perspective he wouldnt remember the original timeline where he's not visited by marty in 1955. Likewise even though a timeline existed where marty is not visited by his future self in 1986, marty would remember this (or the timelines where he was only visited by 1 or 2 versions of himself). If you asked these future martys what they remember on June 15th 1986 they'd each remember either not being visited by a future self or only 1 or 2 future selves growing up.

Think of this possibility
1) marty from the regular silver delorean is from the earliest timeline. From his memory once he and doc return to 1986 they go and do whatever they were going to do inside with no future visits
2) marty is visited by silver delorean marty and they go time traveling. Something which happens during their travels changes his past or future timeline but either way he ends up becoming blue delorean marty
3) marty is visited by silver and blue delorean marty and goes time traveling. His path gets changed again and he becomes black delorean marty

Now keep in mind that because they are time displaced, they wouldnt fade out. So silver marty would return to his present and find it's now the blue timeline and then bue marty would return to his present and find its the black timeline. Depending on what events cause the timelines to change, it's possible this 3 keep going back and back to restore their respective timelines. Eventually they all arrive on this date because it is the earliest they can go (they dont want to intercept marty before he leaves for 1931 to risk a paradox)

4) this is the timeline we see. 3 marty's come from the future. So it's possible that upon seeing the future marty's individual timelines, marty will be able to choose the one he likes best based on the decisions he makes.

I could have sworn I'd posted a lengthy reply to this earlier buut it seems to have gone missing

Anyways, there is a simple example to prove how two alternate versions of a character from the same approximate point in the future can both co-exist in the past...

Suppose, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty (whether he's TP Marty or LP Marty at this point is irrelevant) is injured escaping Biff or somehow and for some reason cannot make the trip back to 1955 with Doc. But Doc runs into the Marty of 1985-A, the one who's supposed to be in Switzerland and enlists his aid to help repair the timeline (kinda the same thing we see in the game, albeit with Marty and Doc's roles reversed)...so Doc and Marty-A go back to 1955...and everything happens as we see in the film (albeit we're following a different Marty)...up until the Enchantment Under the Sea Dance...and then...Marty-A would see TP Marty on stage, doing all the things we saw Marty do in BTTF1...he would be a totally different version from TP Marty and wouldn't remember doing any of that stuff, yet both Marty's would be able to co-exist until 10:04 pm when TP Marty has to return to the future...

[WareKurt]

Suppose, in BTTF2, 'our' Marty (whether he's TP Marty or LP Marty at this point is irrelevant) is injured escaping Biff or somehow and for some reason cannot make the trip back to 1955 with Doc. But Doc runs into the Marty of 1985-A, the one who's supposed to be in Switzerland and enlists his aid to help repair the timeline (kinda the same thing we see in the game, albeit with Marty and Doc's roles reversed)...so Doc and Marty-A go back to 1955...and everything happens as we see in the film (albeit we're following a different Marty)...up until the Enchantment Under the Sea Dance...and then...Marty-A would see TP Marty on stage, doing all the things we saw Marty do in BTTF1...he would be a totally different version from TP Marty and wouldn't remember doing any of that stuff, yet both Marty's would be able to co-exist until 10:04 pm when TP Marty has to return to the future...

Ok but with this example, there also is another question. It would be Doc who brings those Martys together. Any alternate Marty can not travel in time unless Marty prior to him does so. So in the game, there has to be someone else who caused those 3 Martys to go back in time. Like someone going back and forth, altering things and then telling those alternate future Martys to go back to 1986. Who could it be? I couldn't really get any implication for such individual but I believe Marty alone can not cause such effect.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

Originally Posted by WareKurt

Ok but with this example, there also is another question. It would be Doc who brings those Martys together. Any alternate Marty can not travel in time unless Marty prior to him does so. So in the game, there has to be someone else who caused those 3 Martys to go back in time. Like someone going back and forth, altering things and then telling those alternate future Martys to go back to 1986. Who could it be? I couldn't really get any implication for such individual but I believe Marty alone can not cause such effect.

Look at it this way;
in 1955 marty showed up twice on the same day. The second time doc was there with him but he didn't have to be.
In 1931 we also see an instance of 2 marty's at the court house in episode 2.

So at this point if marty were to revisit either november 12th 1955 or june 13th 1931 we'd have the same result; 3 marty's from 3 different timelines.

Let's use the 1955 example and add to it a 3rd marty which would be the one at the end of episode 5 (let's assume thats where doc and marty go at the end of episode 5)
part I marty is from the timeline twin pines mall exists
part II marty is from the timeline with lone pine mall where kid and edna do NOT get together
game marty is from the timeline where kid and edna hook up which is the current timeline.

Doc can restore either of the timelines which have been overwritten; he can restore part I marty's timeline by preventing marty from saving George from getting hit by Lorraines car (then marty would simply hide in docs house in 1955 for the week and go back to the future)

Doc could also return the timeline to part II marty's timeline. To do this he'd have to go back to 1931 and stop young emmett from getting together with edna; maybe he'd find a way to prevent danny parker from finding 'Carl Sagan' at the beginning of episode 2 so Danny doesn't go crazy and arrests Kid properly.



Keep in mind we dont know what the junction points which splits the path of these 3 marty's we see in the game are. At one time they all had the same timeline and presumably that was after 1986 that the junction point happen. The first one is rambling about his great great grandkids (so probably late 21st century) which likely means one of 2 things; he either went to a rejuvination clinic and is over the age of 100 or he's traveled to his own future and found problems. For instance he could be from the 2040's and travelled to the 2080's and found out there's a problem with his great great grandkids.

[WareKurt]

in 1955 marty showed up twice on the same day. The second time doc was there with him but he didn't have to be.
In 1931 we also see an instance of 2 marty's at the court house in episode 2.

But as far as I know they are the same Martys, not from 2 different original timelines. Their ages are slightly different but both of them supposed to remember TP timeline.

So at this point if marty were to revisit either november 12th 1955 or june 13th 1931 we'd have the same result; 3 marty's from 3 different timelines.

I don't think so, the Marty on the stage has to be TP, the one travelling also is TP and the Marty in the game is supposed to be the TP Marty we known from the movies. Without someone else directing an alternate one, the alternates cannot decide to travel some time different.

Think about this, TP Marty travels and alters past so TPMall becomes LPMall. And we have a LP Marty up to the point TP travelled, he has known the mall as LPMall all along. So without someone interfering and telling him what had happened, can LP Marty make a trip on his own? Can the events be changed only by the actions of the alternates? I believe alternates has to follow prior one's actions. So for example without anyone telling him, LP Marty can not decide to put plutonium case in the car while recording. Or without anyone telling him, he can not change the time on the circuits to a closer time where it wouldn't be much trouble for past Doc to repair them. For alternates to be meeting like this, there has to be someone who directed them.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by WareKurt

But as far as I know they are the same Martys, not from 2 different original timelines. Their ages are slightly different but both of them supposed to remember TP timeline.


I don't think so, the Marty on the stage has to be TP, the one travelling also is TP and the Marty in the game is supposed to be the TP Marty we known from the movies. Without someone else directing an alternate one, the alternates cannot decide to travel some time different.

Think about this, TP Marty travels and alters past so TPMall becomes LPMall. And we have a LP Marty up to the point TP travelled, he has known the mall as LPMall all along. So without someone interfering and telling him what had happened, can LP Marty make a trip on his own? Can the events be changed only by the actions of the alternates? I believe alternates has to follow prior one's actions. So for example without anyone telling him, LP Marty can not decide to put plutonium case in the car while recording. Or without anyone telling him, he can not change the time on the circuits to a closer time where it wouldn't be much trouble for past Doc to repair them. For alternates to be meeting like this, there has to be someone who directed them.

I agree the TP-LP issue is a bit confusing...for my part, I've always believed that in BTTF1, we're following TP Marry, in BTTF2 and 3 we're following LP Marty (who was formerly TP Marty, and still remembers the original timeline) and in the Game we're following Eastwood Marty (formerly TP and LP Marty, who remembers both previous timelines)...the ripple effect catches up with the time traveller's whenever they return to their own time and updates their memories.

In BTTF2, when 'our' Marty is back in 1955, he doesn't start fading from existence at the time when his past self from BTTF1 must have started to fade, just before George and Lorraine kiss...its because he's LP Marty...George and Lorraine almost not getting together is part of his extended personal timeline...whereas, for TP Marty on stage, they're not kissing was a deviation from his personal timeline and so he was fading...

But I agree, the problem with TP Marty and LP Marty is that, after LP Marty goes back to 1955 and TP Marty returns FROM 1955, there is only one Marty left ergo they have essentially 'merged' and become one person.

Which is why I used the example of Marty-A who hypothetically must have existed in BTTF2.

I don't see why there would HAVE to be someone else to cause those Marty's to go back in time...

Let's look at it this way...

(For simplicity's sake we'll call the three Marty's Marty1, Marty2 and Marty3)...

In the 'original' timeline, our Marty grows up to become Marty1. He discovers something wrong with the future, so he goes back to 1986, creating a new timeline.

In this second timeline, owing to whatever changes made by Marty1, our Marty grows up to become Marty2...for some reason, even HE ends up going back to 1986, at precisely the same point of time he remembers Marty1 visiting him (maybe to warn his younger self not to listen to Marty1). This creates a third timeline.

In the third timeline, both Marty1 AND Marty2 appear, and owing to the changes they make, our Marty grows up to become Marty3...even HE decides to go back to 1986, at the time he remembers being visited by Marty1 and Marty2, because he wants to warn his younger self against them. This creates the timeline we actually see at the end of the game.

Now, obviously, the future isn't written for 'our' Marty...so he can choose to become either of the three or none of them...but the past HAS been written for each of the future Marty's...the problem is that there is only one timeline (at a time anyway) and all of them has come from different timelines which have been erased...but being outside their time, they are immune to the ripple effect.

I think sometime after the three Marty's return to the future, it will be a future which at least two of them are unfamiliar with (or possibly all of them are) based on the choices 'our' Marty makes...and after a while, unless they can restore their own timelines, they will all be erased...

[WareKurt]

In this second timeline, owing to whatever changes made by Marty1, our Marty grows up to become Marty2...for some reason, even HE ends up going back to 1986, at precisely the same point of time he remembers Marty1 visiting him (maybe to warn his younger self not to listen to Marty1). This creates a third timeline.

But what their reasons can be? In Marty2 and Marty3's POVs, everything is normal. There's no way for them to know if anything is changed, unless a third party informs them. Or perhaps Marty1 met them somehow, but Marty3 said "we meet at last" didn't he? I think it is the first time he is seeing the other two.

[sn939]

Originally Posted by WareKurt

But what their reasons can be? In Marty2 and Marty3's POVs, everything is normal. There's no way for them to know if anything is changed, unless a third party informs them. Or perhaps Marty1 met them somehow, but Marty3 said "we meet at last" didn't he? I think it is the first time he is seeing the other two.

Marty2 and Marty3 may have had other reasons to make their jumps back.

The three Marty's are a somewhat different case from TP Marty and LP Marty...in that case, LP Marty makes the same trip back as TP Marty did and so the two 'merge' in a sense (as in, LP Marty is erased and replaced by TP Marty, who will later gain the erased LP Marty's memories)...whereas, with the 3 Marty's, they've each made seperate trips.

Let's look at it this way...suppose Marty2 remembered being visited by Marty1 as a teenager...Marty1 asked him to do something which resulted in his current timeline; but Marty2 isn't satisfied with how his life has turned out thanks to Marty1's interference...so he decides to go back in time to just after he remembers meeting Marty1 as a teenager...to warn his past self against Marty1...

So he goes back and does so...now, because of the presence of two future versions of himself, 'our' Marty has a different future from both of them...he becomes Marty3. But for some reason, even he is unhappy with how his life has turned out and blames Marty1 and Marty2 for messing up his life when he was a teenager...so he goes back to just shortly after he remembers them showing up...which leads to the end of the game.

[Michael J Fox is Canadian]

here's another way to think about it; biff went back to 1955 from 2015 of a timeline which has been destroyed. But that time travel still happened as we did see it. Let's say right now (which is a different timeline) 2015 biff goes back to 1955; you'd have two different 2015 biffs in the same 1955. The timeline changes again to a different 2015 and THAT biff goes back to 1955 as well; pretty much the exact same scenario as what we saw at the end of the game.

And also keep in mind we have no clue at what point in the future those marty's come from; they may not be the same age or from the same year