KQ7: Underrated?

[Cez]

I personally always thought an interface shouldn't really make a game. If a game is too "easy", it's not the single cursor interface what makes it easy, but more the puzzles in the game. KQ7 was easy, but I don't think that had to do with the actual interface, but with the level of difficulty of the game.

I've played some really hard games that are single cursor. That difficulty comes from the puzzles and the puzzles challenges.

If anything, multiple cursors give you variety of "narrations". But when most games do away with the narrations these days, there's no need for them.

[thom-22]

Multiple modes of interaction -- a verb menu -- might not make any individual puzzle more difficult, but having those kinds of options adds to the overall complexity of a game. The more ways to interact you have, the less likely you are to stumble on solutions rather than arriving at them with forethought.

Of course designers need to build puzzles that take advantage of less-than-obvious combinations of interactions and use them sparingly so they remain less-than-obvious, but I guess designers don't want to do that these days. Imagine Bernard walking into the surveillance room in the mansion, clicking on Edna and just pushing her, without giving the player an opportunity to talk to her first, and maybe not even trying to push her until they realized why they might have reason to.

I've never thought of the verb menu or verb icons as "the interface". I think of them as my character's abilities, in the same way a shooter has combat capabilities or a character in a platformer has various ambulatory abilities. Designers of those kinds of games are constantly looking for ways to give players more options, but we adventure gamers are stuck with one click and watch the character do what needs to be done.

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by thom-22

Multiple modes of interaction -- a verb menu -- might not make any individual puzzle more difficult, but having those kinds of options adds to the overall complexity of a game. The more ways to interact you have, the less likely you are to stumble on solutions rather than arriving at them with forethought.

This. Plus, if the writing is good, there's a whole lot of interesting little game world tidbits that are really interesting to read/hear. Extremely witty and funny responses, in Space Quest's case.

[DAISHI]

What adventure game companies still use the verb menu?

[BagginsKQ]

But, at the same time, SQ6 didn't really need a narrator it is so detailed, but it kept one... I'm glad it did.

There are tantalizing things to see in KQ7, that I would have liked to know even more about. Narrator often gave you backhistory, and details about a world's culture that the character wouldn't know.

SQ6 does that, with its narrator!

Freddy Pharkas did that, Gabriel Knight 1 did that! KQ6 did that...

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by DAISHI

What adventure game companies still use the verb menu?

None to my knowledge. It's all left click = action and right click = examine. If that.

[thom-22]

Originally Posted by DAISHI

What adventure game companies still use the verb menu?

The Next Big Thing has dual interaction modes implemented as cursor cycling. (I'm assuming you didn't literally mean a menu as it should have been clear I didn't.)

What Makes You Tick: A Stitch in Time, an engaging indie adventure that recently picked up a publisher, has look/use/talk modes in a LucasArts-style verb-coin thing.

Gemini Rue has a little popup box with hand/eye/mouth/foot (yes, four!) icons not unlike the Sierra set.

I believe A Vampyre Story has multiple interaction modes, plus the flying thing. (Or am I confusing that with something else?)

While not the traditional kinds of verbs/modes we're used to seeing, Machinarium -- what seems to me to be the most talked-about adventure game in non-adventure gaming communities in recent years (and it's still selling like hotcakes on the Mac App Store) -- has the functional equivalent in that the character can change size and extend limbs, innovative abilities that add complexity to interactions with the environment.

That's just off the top of my head, mind you.

[MusicallyInspired]

Oh wait, Hector has a couple extra icons/verb controls doesn't it?

[thom-22]

Doh! I just played that two weeks ago and didn't think of it -- shows you how efficient the top of my head is. Yes, Hector, a Telltale-published game, has dual modes -- click and double-click, as befits its iOS origins.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by thom-22

Multiple modes of interaction -- a verb menu -- might not make any individual puzzle more difficult, but having those kinds of options adds to the overall complexity of a game. The more ways to interact you have, the less likely you are to stumble on solutions rather than arriving at them with forethought.

Of course designers need to build puzzles that take advantage of less-than-obvious combinations of interactions and use them sparingly so they remain less-than-obvious, but I guess designers don't want to do that these days. Imagine Bernard walking into the surveillance room in the mansion, clicking on Edna and just pushing her, without giving the player an opportunity to talk to her first, and maybe not even trying to push her until they realized why they might have reason to.

I've never thought of the verb menu or verb icons as "the interface". I think of them as my character's abilities, in the same way a shooter has combat capabilities or a character in a platformer has various ambulatory abilities. Designers of those kinds of games are constantly looking for ways to give players more options, but we adventure gamers are stuck with one click and watch the character do what needs to be done.

Best post of the thread.

This is EXACTLY what is wrong with Telltale's approach to adventure games.

So yes, Cez, this absolutely is something that many dislike about all of Telltale's games. And something I utterly despise about KQ7 (though to be honest, the terrible interface is probably the LEAST offensive element of that awful turd of a game, in my opinion.)

The prospect of another KQ game that feels anything like KQ7 is the main thing that makes me throw up in the back of my mouth every time I think about Telltale working with the KQ license.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

Best post of the thread.

This is EXACTLY what is wrong with Telltale's approach to adventure games.

So yes, Cez, this absolutely is something that many dislike about all of Telltale's games. And something I utterly despise about KQ7 (though to be honest, the terrible interface is probably the LEAST offensive element of that awful turd of a game, in my opinion.)

The prospect of another KQ game that feels anything like KQ7 is the main thing that makes me throw up in the back of my mouth every time I think about Telltale working with the KQ license.

I never understand all the hate for KQ7...It's a beautiful game, beautiful worlds, a fun story with not too much depth, but which is well in keeping with the KQ storymold (save a world, help all the people in it, get help back, etc), it has Rosella (my second favorite KQ character next to Graham) starring in it again, it's light and not overly dark and Jane Jensen-ish like KQ6, it has great and wild and wacky characters, it was a pioneering sort of game in terms of technology like KQ5 was, I also much prefer the song in KQ7 to KQ6's Girl in the Tower.

[MusicallyInspired]

It's a decent enough atmosphere....for a non-King's Quest game. It's just the fact that other King's Quest games were so much better in tone, style, writing, and interaction.

And I absolutely do prefer Girl in the Tower.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

It's a decent enough atmosphere....for a non-King's Quest game. It's just the fact that other King's Quest games were so much better in tone, style, writing, and interaction.

And I absolutely do prefer Girl in the Tower.

But it is a King's Quest game...and I don't see how KQ7 is all that different in tone than say, KQ5. Style? I guess graphics are up to the viewer but I never saw anything wrong with Don Bluth style artwork. Writing? The writing is about on par with KQ1-5. The only major difference is the interface.

[MusicallyInspired]

I can't describe it. It's just not the same to me. Maybe they were always meant to be the same style I don't know, but KQ7 is just a heck of a lot more obvious. I just dislike everything about it as a King's Quest title. I can't see KQ7's writing as the same as KQ5. It's just so much more lighter. KQ5 was pretty light, granted, but it wasn't so.....KQ7-ish. lol

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I can't describe it. It's just not the same to me. Maybe they were always meant to be the same style I don't know, but KQ7 is just a heck of a lot more obvious. I just dislike everything about it as a King's Quest title. I can't see KQ7's writing as the same as KQ5. It's just so much more lighter. KQ5 was pretty light, granted, but it wasn't so.....KQ7-ish. lol

What about "Queen Beetrice", "King ANThony", "Queen ICEbella", the happy ants marching song into the haystack, the jollyness of the town, just the overall light hearted spirit of the game? Serenia is a very light land.

The only darkness in the game is Mordack's castle and that's not darkness from a story standpoint; it's just dark because of the creepiness of Mordack's castle.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker

What about "Queen Beetrice", "King ANThony", "Queen ICEbella", the happy ants marching song into the haystack, the jollyness of the town, just the overall light hearted spirit of the game? Serenia is a very light land.

The only darkness in the game is Mordack's castle and that's not darkness from a story standpoint; it's just dark because of the creepiness of Mordack's castle.

I definitely have to disagree here. Take a look at some of the fantasy artwork that inspired the art style of KQ5. When you compare them, it's easy to see that a certain level of grit went into every aspect of KQ5's visuals that just doesn't exist in any other KQ game (well, maybe KQ1SCI and KQ4, but in a different way.)

The artwork in KQ5 always reminds me a bit of the paintings of guys like Boris Vallejo (see link below), but without all the naked titties.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...og&sa=N&tab=wi

[MusicallyInspired]

None of the content of KQ5 is the same as KQ7's incredibly zany, other-worldly, and cartoony characters and locations. KQ5 is whimsical, sure. But KQ7 is like....ultra-super-mega whimsical. And nothing else.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

I definitely have to disagree here. Take a look at some of the fantasy artwork that inspired the art style of KQ5. When you compare them, it's easy to see that a certain level of grit went into every aspect of KQ5's visuals that just doesn't exist in any other KQ game (well, maybe KQ1SCI and KQ4, but in a different way.)

The artwork in KQ5 always reminds me a bit of the paintings of guys like Boris Vallejo

Fantasy artwork that (supposedly) inspires a game is different from the feel of the game itself. It's like saying The Secret of Monkey Island is gritty because it is inspired by the book On Stranger Tides. You might make some case for MI2 with this, but not MI1. The art of MI1 might be dark in places--especially in "hell" but the overall tone of the game is comedic and silly.

The background art isn't all that goes into (nor does it have to be the largest part of) a game's overall feel. In an adventure game, the characters and dialogue play a large part in the feel of a game---even moreso with the advent of ingame speech. Additionally, the nature of the game's puzzles also play a part. In my opinion, the character portraits, dialogue, voice-acting and puzzles (pie in the face, anyone?) are so blatanly lighthearted in KQ5 that it's silly to the point of being laughably absurd.

In King's Quest 7, an entire area of the game is allocated for people who admit to being dead. Certainly, KQ6's Land of the Dead it is not, but it's still dark and foreboding-- especially considering the route to it from the forest passes by Malecia's creepy house, a carnivorous fly-trap plant and and a swamp monster. Now... given that I did just say that the puzzles, characters and dialogue make up a large part of the feel of a game, and KQ7 does have many lighthearted elements as such, but they are not near as laughably absurd as those in KQ5 unless they are intentionally absurd as in the town of Falderal. But then even the word falderal itself is defined as "foolish nonsense."

I would say that KQ7 is appropriately silly in places on purpose while KQ5 is absurd in places by mere ineptitude (a poooiisonous snake!)

[BagginsKQ]

KQ5 was pretty light, granted, but it wasn't so.....KQ7-ish. lol

KQ5 has its Black Cauldron edgier moments actually... the Dark Forest, the incredibly evil Wizard's Island and Castle... Even the desert and icy mountains, and open ocean have their lonely darker feel to to them...

Then the whole cannibal subplot on the Harpy Island...

The art style is realism full detailed painted characters, rather than feature film cell style animation...

Even the narrator gives KQ5 a more somber tone!

The artwork in KQ5 always reminds me a bit of the paintings of guys like Boris Vallejo (see link below), but without all the naked titties.

Careful, if this was POS forums you might be banned !

King's Quest 7, an entire area of the game is allocated for people who admit to being dead. Certainly, KQ6's Land of the Dead it is not, but it's still dark and foreboding-- especially considering the route to it from the forest passes by Malecia's creepy house, a carnivorous fly-trap plant and and a swamp monster. Now... given that I did just say that the puzzles, characters and dialogue make up a large part of the feel of a game, and KQ7 does have many lighthearted elements as such, but they are not near as laughably absurd as those in KQ5 unless they are intentionally absurd as in the town of Falderal. But then even the word falderal itself is defined as "foolish nonsense."

Sorry, but the swamp was not that creepy to me... KQ4 has a creepier swamp... Your examples with the canivorous plant... and the 'swamp monster''' You take out the swamp monster in an amusing manner with a perfume bottle, and its not generally that threatening of an enemy really (the Yeti in contrast was much more threatening creature, looked more threatening due to its more detailed appearance... yes, you do still take it out in a silly manner, but as a monster its much more believably threatening)... The carnivrous plant is probably one of the most sillly characters in the game (being eaten gives them the Butter crown... from the old 1980's parkay commercials)... Sorry the lighthearted, come here sugar plum, so we can eat you, doesn't creep me out at all. Malicia is probably the least threating villain in the series, and its undermined by the silly dog...

There is very little in Oogga Booga graveyard that I would consider 'dark and creepy'... Almost everyone there is silly beyond all levels of sillyness.. the Deaths are incredibly silly there too... The boogeyman jumping out at you is a cheap thrill... The Land of the Dead in KQ6 and the graveyard in KQ4 have much darker foreboding feel to them...

Being dead doesn't make somethign more 'dark'... Just look at the old movie Dracula: Dead and Loving It!

As far as artwork... KQ7's style has a far more exaggerated look to it, on the side of Alice in Wonderland, with maybe some of Tim Burton's iconic style (without Tim Burton's trademark dark moody anxiesty character style)...

I much prefer the realism of KQ5 and KQ6's style...

Rosella (my second favorite KQ character next to Graham) starring in it again

It also screwed up her character turning her from a strong willed, polite, heroinne willing to think of everyone but herself into to an overly selfish, pompous, and rude snot, more interested in herself than others...

It was not the same Rosella seen in KQ4...

[thom-22]

Originally Posted by BagginsKQ

Then the whole cannibal subplot on the Harpy Island...

Yeah, Cedric almost died and I was very upset about it -- annoying though his voice-actor was, he's still an owl and owls are cool.

Originally Posted by BagginsKQ

It also screwed up her character turning her from a strong willed, polite, heroinne willing to think of everyone but herself into to an overly selfish, pompous, and rude snot, more interested in herself than others...

It was not the same Rosella seen in KQ4...

This was my biggest problem with KQ7. I can enjoy a game even though the graphics aren't my cup of tea (and KQ7's aren't). But I didn't really like Rosella very much, for exactly the reasons you gave, or for that matter Valanice either.