When can we expect to see SOMETHING about Telltale's KQ?

[PirateGamer]

All that is important for King's Quest is that they take their time to tell a good story. I would prefer a little drawn out, longer, more complex story even if they keep the difficulty the same as / simpler than they always have. King's Quest always felt more about the adventure, so I hope they focus on a good story for it. Something a la KQ5 or KQ6. If they do that I would be happy.

[Cez]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

I doubt it. Telltale has already proven that they don't think their customers are capable of complex thoughts. Why would they put any stock in their customers' ideas about gameplay?

However, it is this formula what has made them stay successfully afloat in a market where every other commercial adventure company has horribly failed in the 2000s.

At the end of the day, they've found a balance that has allowed them to SURVIVE, and produce what can be considered the best adventure games of this generation, with a constant flux of releases, while reviving old gems that we hold dear.

We HAVE to get over the 90s, really. That was a great time, we got our gems, there will never be anything produced that can (or should try to) replace them. No matter how close they aim for it, it will be a game for this generation. And it has to be in order for Telltale to continue to be successful. And we can kick and cry and want KQ4, 5 or 6, and we'll be disappointed and whine. me thinks we should just enjoy it. Some of the things we are asking, we KNOW already we are not going to get, and that has nothing with Telltale wanting or not to listen, it has to do with making games that make back as much money as they put into them. And KQ5, in this generation, will not do it.

Name ONE company that does adventure games, and that comes as close as Telltale's success in how they've been able to grow in the way they have, that can have better and better production values with every new series. There's none. None. It doesn't work anymore. Blame today's economy, blame bloated salaries, blame the longer to produce technology, the days of Sierra and LucasArts models of adventure games are gone and they will stay gone until the technology changes enough that allows them to become popular again. And until that happens, I'm not going to hold my breath.

I'll just be happy to return to Daventry once more, done with the better technology that it's ever going to get up to this point.

But if you are unhappy, go and play Black Mirror 3, Memento Mori, The Whispered World. Those are true adventures like those of the 90s. Sans the production values. And developers and publishers struggle and struggle to keep afloat. And in the meanwhile, Telltale continues to grow.

Really, are we truly thinking that a company will risk so much? I for one, don't really want them to. I have a lot of friends there I'd hate to see get laid off because of a title failing to perform as well as it could because of not being accessible to the masses. And, at the end of the day, they find ways to balance accessibility and fans, which shows they care and listen within the model that works for them. Tales of Monkey Island is the perfect example of that.

Bottom line is that adventure mechanics of the 80/90s and production values of the current decade are mutually exclusive --at least for a profitable successful formula within the current market. Asking Telltale to do that is like complaining to Ubisoft because Assassins Creed is nowhere as hard, nor as unforgiving as the original Prince of Persia.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Cez

Bottom line is that adventure mechanics of the 80/90s and production values of the current decade are mutually exclusive --at least for a profitable successful formula within the current market. Asking Telltale to do that is like complaining to Ubisoft because Assassins Creed is nowhere as hard, nor as unforgiving as the original Prince of Persia.

That's not really a good comparison at all. Assassin's Creed is significantly more complex in its mechanics than the original Prince of Persia--not LESS. We're talking about Telltale actively making its games less playable, less interactive, less explorable, and ultimately MUCH less engaging than ever before. Not only are they sounding the death knell of adventure games as they have traditionally been known, they are actively removing the GAME portion of their games, to the point where calling them games starts to become something of a stretch. And I think it's complete BS to act like Telltale's approach is the "wave of the future" or something, because it's not new. Games like Dragon's Lair and Space Ace did the same thing 25 years ago, minus the punishing timing-based sections. And those games are now little more than novelties relegated to the figurative dust bin of gaming history. Time will tell if this approach to games will fail as badly as I hope it does. BttF proved that this methodology can, and often does, produce terrible games. Jurassic Park will be the real test though--it goes much farther than BttF in terms of the way it deviates from traditional gameplay. Its own developers have admitted that they were going for "interactive movie" over "graphic adventure game," so we'll see how it goes. If it does bomb, though, I hope they will rethink their strategy--I do agree that some of their earlier games have been excellent. And I also agree that Tales of Monkey Island has, so far, been their crowning achievement. We'll see if they can reach those heights again...so far it has been a steady downhill slope.

[Cez]

And then there's something like Heavy Rain, which manages to be more of a "movie" than BttF, and remove all and any challenge from a game, and manages to sell millions of copies.

I don't think that Telltale games are killing the adventure genre. They were already dead. If anything, they are bringing them back to the mainstream. Regardless of the reason, BttF has been their most successful game yet in terms of sales.

The mechanics of AC have been expanded, yes, but they have also been incredibly dumbed down. You were talking about complexity of puzzles and that was what I was responding to: the fact that things have become easier in our generation. Apparently, nobody wants to become frustrated by having to think in a game. Exploration, that's another topic and I agree that AC has evolved the gameplay of PoP into a vast and very interesting open world. But, again, we were talking about difficulty.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Cez

Regardless of the reason, BttF has been their most successful game yet in terms of sales.

The mechanics of AC have been expanded, yes, but they have also been incredibly dumbed down. You were talking about complexity of puzzles and that was what I was responding to: the fact that things have become easier in our generation. Apparently, nobody wants to become frustrated by having to think in a game. Exploration, that's another topic and I agree that AC has evolved the gameplay of PoP into a vast and very interesting open world. But, again, we were talking about difficulty.

On BttF--I have to wonder how much of the "success" in terms of sales is purely due to the game carrying the BttF license and billing itself as the next installment in the classic series, rather than on the merits of the product as a game itself. I wonder how many of those sales actually finished all episodes of the game after spending that initial $29.99 on the season. I know I didn't. I stopped after episode 3 and have absolutely no intention of going back to it. I just have to wonder how the statistics would change if we were talking about customer satisfaction after playing through the completed final product. People were willing to take a leap of faith with BttF, mostly because Telltale hadn't yet released anything so utterly terrible before--many made the mistake of assuming it would be up to the same level of quality as their previous games. I know I sure did, and I regret it.

On adventure games in general--I certainly was talking about more than puzzle difficulty. BttF wasn't JUST bad because of easy puzzles--it was bad because you couldn't do shit in it. The entire game was set in an invisible hallway, with only a handful of side rooms and only the slightest amount of photographs hanging on the wall, metaphorically speaking, of course. By that, I mean that it completely and utterly lacked any sense of exploration and interaction, beyond the handful of interactions necessary to solve the "puzzles."

That's where a game like Assassin's Creed shines, despite the lack of any really punishing difficulty.

Personally, I don't think high difficulty is a requirement for a good adventure game. But I absolutely DO think that the ability to explore and interact with the world, beyond the meager interactions necessary to simply advance the core plot, is indispensable. And that's where Telltale has failed--miserably.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm not wishing we were back in the 90s. That has nothing to do with it. I know times have to move on. I'm not pressuring Telltale to adopt a 5-icon interface or anything. I just want King's Quest to be at LEAST as good Tales of Monkey Island was. But not with TMI's game design elements, because those were purely Monkey Island inspired. No, it must have King's Quest's game design elements (not 90s adventure design elements).

Yes, Heavy Rain sold well but it wasn't a continuation on a beloved franchise and it wasn't an adventure game. If they turn King's Quest into an "interactive movie" I will not buy it. I won't even give it a chance.

[Lambonius]

King's Quest is an interesting animal, and unlike anything Telltale has tried to tackle before.

One the one hand, it really IS synonymous with 90s adventure game design elements. Trying to separate the two completely would be a mistake. On the other hand, there are certainly ways to update and modernize those elements (WITHOUT DUMBING DOWN THE EXPERIENCE--listen closely, Telltale!) that really could bring the franchise into line with today's gaming standards.

Another thing that makes King's Quest unique is that each installment in the franchise is quite a bit different, either in terms of game design, interface, story, etc. So which installment do they try to emulate? KQ5 or 6--generally considered to be the pinnacles of the series? KQ7--with its horrid interface and chapter setup that is closer to the traditional Telltale format? KQ8 with its action elements? Some amalgam of all of the above? It's hard to say.

One thing all KQ games have in common is a sense of nonlinear exploration. This is an element that is almost entirely absent from Telltale's games, and one that I think will be crucial to figure out and capture, if they want to mimic the style & tone of King's Quest.

I strongly disagree that KQ games have been or should be primarily about story--I'm sure Telltale could expand on the usual bare bones KQ storylines successfully--story is one of their strong points--but it shouldn't be the SOLE focus of the experience, as it has been in most Telltale games.

[Cez]

I'm interested to see how/if Telltale will pull that off, but that's another thing you are asking that may be something that Telltale cannot deliver: a vast world to explore. They may do a big forest where they can reuse environments, a-la jungle in Monkey Island, but again, a vast explorable world, especially highly expandable upon each episode, I find it nearly impossible for Telltale to pull off knowing how their production model works.

So, again, you cannot expect something that the genre can't offer. You may get something similar, but never the worlds of the 90s. Those, these days, belong to games like Skyrim or AC or Dragon Age. or maybe even something like Heavy Rain. But, a point and click adventure?

And thus is why Telltale tries to modernize the genre so that they can draw masses in again, so they can offer bigger worlds eventually... or I'd guess that'd make sense.

[MusicallyInspired]

Everything you've said seems to kind of prove many people's whole point on the whole issue. And that is that it shouldn't be attempted. Many would say it would be better if it stayed in the 90s than to be tarnished into something unrecognizable.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Cez

I'm interested to see how/if Telltale will pull that off, but that's another thing you are asking that may be something that Telltale cannot deliver: a vast world to explore. They may do a big forest where they can reuse environments, a-la jungle in Monkey Island, but again, a vast explorable world, especially highly expandable upon each episode, I find it nearly impossible for Telltale to pull off knowing how their production model works.

So, again, you cannot expect something that the genre can't offer. You may get something similar, but never the worlds of the 90s. Those, these days, belong to games like Skyrim or AC or Dragon Age. or maybe even something like Heavy Rain. But, a point and click adventure?

And thus is why Telltale tries to modernize the genre so that they can draw masses in again, so they can offer bigger worlds eventually... or I'd guess that'd make sense.

Sigh... I'm not talking about a world the size of Assassin's Creed II or Skyrim. Clearly, nobody expects that. I'm talking about a world that SEEMS large and expansive.

KQ5 and 6 had worlds that SEEMED large an expansive without actually being so. It was all a cleverly veiled illusion.

To put it another way, it's not the SIZE of the world, but how INTERACTIVE it is. If players have the ability to comb through every background object (at least to the degree of KQ5 or 6), the world doesn't actually need to be that LARGE. It just has to be fleshed out. The object is to make the player FEEL like they have a greater latitude to explore as they see fit. Even KQ5, arguably the most expansive FEELING of the series, has fairly confined areas. KQ7 also feels large and explorable (though to a lesser degree thanks to the crap interface), and it is even broken into episodes! What I'm talking about is absolutely possible. All they need to do is make fleshed out areas with lots of extraneous interactions, and create a list of tasks that do not necessarily have to be completed in a specific order. Those smaller tasks can be part of a larger puzzle that unlocks the next area (or ends the episode.)

Seriously, I can't believe you of all people are arguing that this is impossible. TSL pretty much has done it already!

[Cez]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

Sigh... I'm not talking about a world the size of Assassin's Creed II or Skyrim. Clearly, nobody expects that. I'm talking about a world that SEEMS large and expansive.

KQ5 and 6 had worlds that SEEMED large an expansive without actually being so. It was all a cleverly veiled illusion.

To put it another way, it's not the SIZE of the world, but how INTERACTIVE it is. If players have the ability to comb through every background object (at least to the degree of KQ5 or 6), the world doesn't actually need to be that LARGE. It just has to be fleshed out. The object is to make the player FEEL like they have a greater latitude to explore as they see fit. Even KQ5, arguably the most expansive FEELING of the series, has fairly confined areas. KQ7 also feels large and explorable (though to a lesser degree thanks to the crap interface), and it is even broken into episodes! What I'm talking about is absolutely possible. All they need to do is make fleshed out areas with lots of extraneous interactions, and create a list of tasks that do not necessarily have to be completed in a specific order. Those smaller tasks can be part of a larger puzzle that unlocks the next area (or ends the episode.)

Seriously, I can't believe you of all people are arguing that this is impossible. TSL pretty much has done it already!

I understand what you are saying, and I know TSL has done it. But I've worked at Telltale, as well. Telltale's model doesn't fit the number of screens TSL has. It would be way too much for their production cycles.

If you compare TSL to Tales of Monkey Island, for example, TSL's world is much bigger. A world the size of TSL would cost Telltale a lot of money. That's what I'm saying.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Cez

I understand what you are saying, and I know TSL has done it. But I've worked at Telltale, as well. Telltale's model doesn't fit the number of screens TSL has. It would be way too much for their production cycles.

If you compare TSL to Tales of Monkey Island, for example, TSL's world is much bigger. A world the size of TSL would cost Telltale a lot of money. That's what I'm saying.

So basically you're saying that a professional company with paid workers and a budget couldn't accomplish the same level of gameplay depth and quality as a group of amateur fan developers with no budget or compensation?

Why does that statement not seem to make sense to me?

[Cez]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

So basically you're saying that a professional company with paid workers and a budget couldn't accomplish the same level of gameplay depth and quality as a group of amateur fan developers with no budget or compensation?

Why does that statement not seem to make sense to me?

Because we had years to make it happen. And we didn't care how much we "spent". That makes a huge difference. Producing that same amount of content in a year period, would have been next to impossible, even with a big budget. Note that I'm talking just about quantity (number of screens, number of characters, number of actions you can perform, etc), they will definitely have better quality.

We are talking about x number of months to craft the first episode, but then it goes down to a timeline of roughly one to two months to put together a full episode. Trust me, I've been there, that times passes FAST. You could insert 40 more people to create more content, yes, but 1) that's money, 2) in such a short amount of time it becomes extremely chaotic to manage, because you still want only a few people managing a huge team in order to hold the vision into something coherent.

Remember, a game like Mask of Eternity, or even Gabriel Knight 3 took 2-3 years to make. Those are 2-3 years of spending a lot of money maintaining a team. That's a hit that Bioware could take these days, but it would ruin a "small" company like Telltale. Professional has nothing to do with it --again, we are not in the golden years of adventure anymore where Sierra was one of the lead developers, they had a PR monster machine and their games were the popular ones. All that has changed immensely. And so, in order for a game like King's Quest to survive in this time, it would have to adapt to a lot of things.

What I'm hoping we get is what Tales fans got when you compare it to something like Curse of Monkey Island. Still, a lot less scenes/characters, but it was done in such a smart way that they managed to keep the feeling of Monkey Island. But, like you've said before, King's Quest is about exploration. Maybe Telltale will come up with a way where they give us a big forest that they manage to create within their budget, I don't know, I really don't know what's going on in there anymore, and they have scaled up since I left. But I'm setting my expectations accordingly to the amount of content they have created for all of their games, because that's probably what we are going to get for King's Quest.

I'm talking from personal experience as I've been delving a lot into that lately. If we were to do a commercial project, it would be hugely scaled down from the size of TSL --TSL would probably cost 2-3 millions dollars or so to make or more with a timeline of 2 years or so (if graphics were updated to latest technology). That's just development money and not counting in any Publicity/Publishing/Licenses related costs. Unfortunately, I don't think any adventure game would make that kind of money back.

[Cez]

And, in general, that's why I say that we have to get over the 90s, with these big adventure games, with these big worlds to explore, with them being much less accessible, etc. My comment was oriented towards all that. Telltale is the ONLY company in the whole world that has managed to succeed, and it's not only because of dumbing down their games, it has to do with a lot of smart decisions they have made, including the perfect size and amount of content in their games.

Look at a game like Dreamfall. Big, huge, pretty and fun. Where's the sequel? Where's the next adventure game from Funcom? It didn't sell enough. Telltale's game won't carry the headlines news. That's space is reserved for other games these days, so you either sacrifice a lot in order to make these games, or you fail miserably, like 95% of adventure developers in the 2000s. And then, for better or worse, we had Telltale coming along, and finding a way to steadily put out products every year. We can say whatever about their games, but damn, we got to applaud them in how they've managed to do this successfully where everyone else has failed.

[Cez]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Everything you've said seems to kind of prove many people's whole point on the whole issue. And that is that it shouldn't be attempted. Many would say it would be better if it stayed in the 90s than to be tarnished into something unrecognizable.

I don't think that way. Honestly, if it's not my cup of tea I won't play it, but that won't change my feelings about King's Quest. Mask of Eternity certainly didn't make me feel different about King's Quest V or VI. If anything, it just reinforced what masterpieces they were.

If it's not what you want, let a new generation enjoy it. It may even get them interested to go to the past and experience the old games.

If we didn't want it brought back officially, maybe we shouldn't have worked so hard in keeping it alive with our fan games

[puzzlebox]

Originally Posted by Cez

Telltale is the ONLY company in the whole world that has managed to succeed

There's an enormous amount of sense in what you've been saying, but this statement is a bit of an exaggeration. Look at Her Interactive for example. They've churned out a couple of entries in the Nancy Drew adventure game series every year, across multiple platforms, for a good number of years now. Pendulo Studios was founded in 1994, and while not exactly prolific, they still seem to be making games (and games that are fairly well rooted in old adventure traditions at that).

While Telltale certainly stands out in terms of rapid growth, I wouldn't say they are the ONLY company in the WHOLE WORLD that is doing ok.

[Cez]

Originally Posted by puzzlebox

There's an enormous amount of sense in what you've been saying, but this statement is a bit of an exaggeration. Look at Her Interactive for example. They've churned out a couple of entries in the Nancy Drew adventure game series every year, across multiple platforms, for a good number of years now. Pendulo Studios was founded in 1994, and while not exactly prolific, they still seem to be making games (and games that are fairly well rooted in old adventure traditions at that).

While Telltale certainly stands out in terms of rapid growth, I wouldn't say they are the ONLY company in the WHOLE WORLD that is doing ok.

Yeah, but Her Interactive's games are not something you would find as being hyped or wanted as a Telltale game. It depends on the public, I guess, but there's in general, from players and press, a huge gap when it comes to interest level from both companies games. There's a quality to Telltale Games that you don't find in other studios.

I did say constant release of games, as well. So, yes, I know about Pendulo and I know about other companies out there, but there's nothing that scratches Telltale Games when it comes to a steady, growing, successful formula. Everyone else is just gasping for air, or producing low quality products. That's what I meant.

[Lambonius]

I think ultimately what it boils down to is this:

Telltale is going to have to try a different approach with the KQ license, or it won't be King's Quest.

At least not in the eyes of fans of the old games. I firmly believe that it will be impossible to capture the spirit and tone of the original KQ games using the format Telltale has used with the majority of their adventure games--games like Tales or Sam & Max.

It's just that simple.

Now, despite my negative outcry, I don't think that it is TOTALLY outside the realm of possibility that they could do King's Quest justice, but it won't be with a game formatted like Tales of Monkey Island or Sam & Max. And CERTAINLY not one formatted like BttF. *shudders and crosses himself*

Telltale has shown with Jurassic Park that they are willing to experiment with new formats--they are even bringing down the episode count to four (presumably to flesh out each episode.) So maybe they will surprise us with something new for King's Quest.

That's what I'm hoping. Otherwise, it's already over.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Everything you've said seems to kind of prove many people's whole point on the whole issue. And that is that it shouldn't be attempted. Many would say it would be better if it stayed in the 90s than to be tarnished into something unrecognizable.

Well, one must remember, Cesar probably has an agena saying what he does. After all, his team was bucking hard to get the license themselves so we could get Angst Quest I, II, III starring the emotionally tortured King Graham and the creepy, whipped, anime-esque Alexander.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Cez

Because we had years to make it happen. And we didn't care how much we "spent". That makes a huge difference. Producing that same amount of content in a year period, would have been next to impossible, even with a big budget. Note that I'm talking just about quantity (number of screens, number of characters, number of actions you can perform, etc), they will definitely have better quality.

We are talking about x number of months to craft the first episode, but then it goes down to a timeline of roughly one to two months to put together a full episode. Trust me, I've been there, that times passes FAST. You could insert 40 more people to create more content, yes, but 1) that's money, 2) in such a short amount of time it becomes extremely chaotic to manage, because you still want only a few people managing a huge team in order to hold the vision into something coherent.

Remember, a game like Mask of Eternity, or even Gabriel Knight 3 took 2-3 years to make. Those are 2-3 years of spending a lot of money maintaining a team. That's a hit that Bioware could take these days, but it would ruin a "small" company like Telltale. Professional has nothing to do with it --again, we are not in the golden years of adventure anymore where Sierra was one of the lead developers, they had a PR monster machine and their games were the popular ones. All that has changed immensely. And so, in order for a game like King's Quest to survive in this time, it would have to adapt to a lot of things.

What I'm hoping we get is what Tales fans got when you compare it to something like Curse of Monkey Island. Still, a lot less scenes/characters, but it was done in such a smart way that they managed to keep the feeling of Monkey Island. But, like you've said before, King's Quest is about exploration. Maybe Telltale will come up with a way where they give us a big forest that they manage to create within their budget, I don't know, I really don't know what's going on in there anymore, and they have scaled up since I left. But I'm setting my expectations accordingly to the amount of content they have created for all of their games, because that's probably what we are going to get for King's Quest.

I'm talking from personal experience as I've been delving a lot into that lately. If we were to do a commercial project, it would be hugely scaled down from the size of TSL --TSL would probably cost 2-3 millions dollars or so to make or more with a timeline of 2 years or so (if graphics were updated to latest technology). That's just development money and not counting in any Publicity/Publishing/Licenses related costs. Unfortunately, I don't think any adventure game would make that kind of money back.

The only reasons KQ8 and GK3 took 2-3 years were largely technical issues and the fact that Sierra's new management had no faith in adventure games. Consider that that KQ8's production started in 1996, and was planned to be released for Christmas 1997--Only Dynamix's failures and the new management having no faith in adventure games and trying to control Roberta stopped that.