When can we expect to see SOMETHING about Telltale's KQ?

[Cez]

Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker

The only reasons KQ8 and GK3 took 2-3 years were largely technical issues and the fact that Sierra's new management had no faith in adventure games. Consider that that KQ8's production started in 1996, and was planned to be released for Christmas 1997--Only Dynamix's failures and the new management having no faith in adventure games and trying to control Roberta stopped that.

That may have been part of it, I won't talk about MoE because I don't know the story, but GK3 took 3 years because it needed them (and I had a conversation with Jane Jensen about it). Granted, there were a lot of technical issues why this happened, but that's all part of the complexity of systems since 3D was implemented. The truth of the matter is that as developers get their hands on better and better technology, times also increase. For the 3D technology, you have to do your 2D passes, but then, when you get to the modeling part, that normally takes more time than 2D. Nowadays with Normal Maps which brings the ability of doing extraordinary detail on things, a character that you could do in 5 days prior to this technology, now can take 15. The more detail and features you can add, the more time game making is going to take.

The development cycles of Sierra games in the 90s were about a year each with a mid size team. You would not be able to do that in less than 2 years today and you would need double or triple the team. Just look at a credits list of a game of today and compare it to a game from the 90s. Look at the absurdity of Uncharted or Assassins Creed lists. They never end, they keep rolling and rolling and rolling. Making AAA titles is absurd in how expensive it can be today. In the same way, GK and MoE were pushing the technology back in their day, and MoE was basically their first adventure product where they did this. They might as well thought that it was going to be easy, and then they hit the reality, and complexity of it. Which is the point I'm trying to make, you can't compare the production time of VGA games from the 90s to 3D games, not from today, and not from the late 90s either. I'm not saying that the VGA games are "easy" to put together, they are definitely not child play, and they have their own nightmares like animation for example, but 3D goes through all of that, and adds another layer of complexity to things on top of everything.

Even games like Final Fantasy went from being released year after year (VII in 97, VII, in 98, IX in 99 or 00) to taking two years for X, and then 5 years for XII and 5 years for XIII. Politics, etc, play part in that, but that's also because if you make mistakes in this generation, the price you pay is very high, because everything is more complex, and harder to "redo" or "fix".

But this is actually a very good example of what people are asking Telltale to do. They are asking them to leave what is tried and true for them in order to do new things. When you take people from their comfort zone, it creates risk. Sometimes, that risk must be matched to sales expectations. If KQ's sales expectations match their sales expectations from Jurassic Park (and trust me, they must have numbers), they will probably take the risk with King's Quest as well. If not, then they may just stay within their comfort zone in order to minimize risk. That whole thing of "well, then they must try a different model" makes sense as a fan, but not as someone who is running a company and is responsible of feeding the families of those who they have employed.

Now, are they listening? Yes, they are. Will they give us the KQ we want? no, they'll give us Telltale's King's Quest, not Sierra's King's Quest. Will it have that full exploration feeling to it with a bunch of different screens, characters, and interactions? If Monkey Island is an example to follow, the answer is no, because Tales was much smaller in number of screens and characters than every other game in the series? Will it be horrible even if it's that way? We don't know. Hey, maybe they understand what we fans want, because sometimes it seems obvious to me that we don't know and that we want all different things in a KQ. Right, but that's what the series itself taught us --always be different, there's no true King's Quest, and there's no definite way of approaching this series.

They say It all depends on Roberta's mood at the time, so, since she's retired and traveling in her boat around the world, maybe this game will feel more like Monkey Island than King's Quest :P

(and, yes, I know she's not working on this, Anakin, this is a joke

[Lambonius]

I think its improper to be continually comparing Tales of Monkey Island to King's Quest. Because of the island-hopping nature of ALL Monkey Island games, Telltale's model fit rather nicely. It was not much of a stretch at all to get a game that fits both the traditional format of a Monkey Island game and the traditional format of a Telltale game--because honestly, the formats aren't that different. Yes, Tales was their best game, but it had more to do with the variety of locations, the quality of the writing, the strength and complexity of the puzzles, etc, than any crazy tricks they did with their standard format. They basically took the Telltale format and slapped a Monkey Island skin on it. They just happened to also add great music, writing, voice acting, and most importantly, complex puzzles to it which made it really shine.

King's Quest on the other hand is, as we've said, entirely different from a Monkey Island game, and of course, entirely different from Telltale's usual game. Capturing the "feel" of a King's Quest game is going to be much, MUCH harder for them. And they always say how important it is to capture the "feel" of whatever license it is they are working on at the time. I just happen to think there is no possible way for them to succeed using the same format they have always used for their games, given the fundamentally different design of a KQ game versus your standard Lucasarts game.

[RAnthonyMahan]

Well, since this thread seems to have turned into "What do you want Telltale's KQ to be like?", I may as well pitch in. I realize most of what I'm saying won't happen, but let me dream.

For starters, they need to ditch the episodic format. I don't just mean releasing every episode at once like with Jurassic Park (though that's a good start), I mean completely abandoning any idea of this being episodic. Take the resources that'd go to making five small games and make one large game instead.

Like Cez said, a big part of the appeal to adventure games back in the day is that, with the limited technology of the time, games had to be small, yet adventure games felt big without actually being big. (This is also probably why adventure games fell out of style, now that genuinely big games are possible.) Zork gave people a huge world full of tiny things to explore, and it did it without graphics. Any given Telltale episode is much, much larger than Zork, or KQ1, but it doesn't actually feel larger, and I feel like a big part of that is because they're so adherent to making their games episodic.

The closest Telltale has ever come to that "Man, this game is big!" feeling old adventure games could pull off was exploring Flotsam Island in Episodes 1 and 4 of ToMI. Sure, most of it was because of that stupid maze, but I felt like I was walking through a huge island, and I liked that. When I entered Club 41 in Episode 5, I was excited about the possibility of exploring the island again, but as soon as I head for the door I get an excuse about how it's not safe to go outside. The point is, making your games episodic comes with some pretty extreme constraints, and that goes completely against the spirit of King's Quest. I want a big world to wander around, and I want lots of things to examine, and if Telltale can't do that in an episodic game, then I don't want an episodic game.

As for the content of the game itself...I don't think I really have the right to talk too much about that. I'm not a game designer. Whatever mistakes Telltale might make with this game, if I was in their position I'd probably end up making a lot more. However, I will say this much:

When you're continuing an existing franchise, be it making a movie adaptation of a book or the newest installment in a classic video game series, there's one rule that I think is fairly constant. Ignoring your predecessors is bad (if nothing else, Telltale, this new game had better have lots of deaths), but slavishly mimicking them isn't much better. The main problem with anything that uses nostalgia as a selling point is that in an effort to please the fans they just do the exact same thing the old stuff did. If you just copy what's already been done, though, it means you're not even trying to make something better. I love the King's Quest series to death, but that doesn't mean it has no flaws that could be improved on. Most people don't like unwinnable situations, or long twisty narrow paths where a single misstep makes you fall to your death, or puzzles with solutions only a complete madman could figure out on his own. Just for a few examples. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Telltale should try to be faithful to the series, but at the same time keep in mind that there's such a thing as too faithful.

[caeska]

Originally Posted by RAnthonyMahan

Most people don't like unwinnable situations

Not true. Scenarios where it's possible to screw up and present you with a situation where you can't finish the game are great and add an extra layer of challenge and realism. Like eating the pie in KQ5 or even small ones like entering the Isle of Wonder in KQ6 without all the items.
An adventure game should reward you for exploring and trying to pick up every item you can interact with. Your own fault for heading up the mountain unprepared.

or long twisty narrow paths where a single misstep makes you fall to your death

Gamers nowadays just don't know how to use their arrow keys. The long twisty path down Manannan's mountain and the cave down from the clouds in KQ1 had their charms. And I certainly wouldn't want to be without the awesome falling deaths in KQ5. And besides, all you had to do was save regularly and there should be no problem. What are you complaining about?

or puzzles with solutions only a complete madman could figure out on his own

Like...what exactly? All puzzles in KQ can be solved with logical reasoning and by exploring. Difficult challenges doesn't make them unreasonable or illogical.

[BagginsKQ]

Only Dynamix's failures

It wasn't a 'failure' of Dynamix really.

Dynamix was designing their own engine for their own game (Red Baron II/Starsiege). Sierra wanted that new version early, and Dynamix wasn't ready to release it on the market. Remember new engines take plenty of time to actually develop, before they are used for games themselves...

Think of how long it is taking for ID Software to design new engines, and how long it takes for that engine to be released to other companies to start using them... ID Tech 5 engine for example, the one being used in Doom 4, has been in development since before 2007... The earliest usable version was shown in 2007, and its still in development now in 2011!

Doom 4 will probably not be released until sometime 2012 or so (i'd be surprised it it makes it out by Christmas 2011)... It will be quite a bit of time before any other companies have access to the engine to start using it for their games.

Keep in mind that engines and games are always two separate development cycles... It took years for Valve to design the Half-life engine (even though it was built on a highly modified Quake engine). Although since it was built on Quake, the game itself's development probably started alot sooner? It also took years for Halflife 2 Source engine (even it was based off a highly modified version of the Quake engine) to be completed!

Sierra wanted to push the engine beyond what Dynamix was designing it to do (simulator games)... Dynamix was still designing that game engine for their own games, and it wasn't ready for those, let alone the more complicated game Sierra wanted to use it...

Thus Sierra was forced to use an earlier previously released version, and modify it.

I think its improper to be continually comparing Tales of Monkey Island to King's Quest. Because of the island-hopping nature of ALL Monkey Island games, Telltale's model fit rather nicely. It was not much of a stretch at all to get a game that fits both the traditional format of a Monkey Island game and the traditional format of a Telltale game--because honestly, the formats aren't that different.

More importantly every single Monkey Island is chapter based, with 4-5 chapters telling the story.

The closest Telltale has ever come to that "Man, this game is big!" feeling old adventure games could pull off was exploring Flotsam Island in Episodes 1 and 4 of ToMI. Sure, most of it was because of that stupid maze, but I felt like I was walking through a huge island, and I liked that.

If you look at MI1 for example, Melee Island wasn't really all that large, nor had much exploration... The largest part of the island was taken up by a 'stupid maze'!... The later island, Monkey Island itself only had 3-4 places to explore, and another 'stupid maze' (hell).

In later MI games, its quite similar in that usually you only have a overhead map, and only 2-4 places to explore on the islands. Although 'stupid mazes' were less common, as the series progressed... (until TOMI that is)

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by BagginsKQ

More importantly every single Monkey Island is chapter based, with 4-5 chapters telling the story.

If you look at MI1 for example, Melee Island wasn't really all that large, nor had much exploration... The largest part of the island was taken up by a 'stupid maze'!... The later island, Monkey Island itself only had 3-4 places to explore, and another 'stupid maze' (hell).

In later MI games, its quite similar in that usually you only have a overhead map, and only 2-4 places to explore on the islands. Although 'stupid mazes' were less common, as the series progressed... (until TOMI that is)

True, I forgot about the chapter thing.

The mazes in Tales were probably my least favorite parts of the game. Especially the parts where you had to follow the wind direction (due in no small part to the animation for the weather vane being broken--at least in the Mac version.) They really felt like cheap filler to me. On the plus side though, each screen was more or less unique, so at least the visuals were decent.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

True, I forgot about the chapter thing.

The mazes in Tales were probably my least favorite parts of the game. Especially the parts where you had to follow the wind direction (due in no small part to the animation for the weather vane being broken--at least in the Mac version.) They really felt like cheap filler to me. On the plus side though, each screen was more or less unique, so at least the visuals were decent.

Couldn't the mazes in KQ5 and KQ6 be considered filler?

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Anakin Skywalker

Couldn't the mazes in KQ5 and KQ6 be considered filler?

Absolutely. But in my mind, their implementation made more sense in the context of 90s era adventure gaming. That said, I've honestly never been much of a fan of mazes in any adventure games, ever. The labyrinth in KQ6 was somewhat interesting because of the items and puzzles scattered throughout, but I definitely was not a fan of the maze beneath Mordack's castle in KQ5. Despite the fact that I like KQ5 best out of all the KQ games, I think that section is its lowest point.

[doggans]

Originally Posted by caeska

Scenarios where it's possible to screw up and present you with a situation where you can't finish the game are great and add an extra layer of challenge and realism. Like eating the pie in KQ5 or even small ones like entering the Isle of Wonder in KQ6 without all the items.
An adventure game should reward you for exploring and trying to pick up every item you can interact with. Your own fault for heading up the mountain unprepared.

There are certainly some people who enjoy the challenge of dead ends, but I think it's safe to say that MOST gamers find dead ends frustrating. Even in Sierra's heyday, there were plenty of dead-end detractors.

Personally, I find the extra "challenge" of dead ends fairly artificial. Most of the time, the player has no way of knowing what they did wrong and learning from their mistake.

[Gibbeynator]

Originally Posted by caeska

Like...what exactly? All puzzles in KQ can be solved with logical reasoning and by exploring. Difficult challenges doesn't make them unreasonable or illogical.

Pie and Yeti, that is all.

[Chyron8472]

Don't forget the cheese-powered machine; spelling Rumpelstiltskin with a backwards alphabet (z=a; y=b); throwing a bridle onto a snake...

[MusicallyInspired]

Originally Posted by Gibbeynator

Pie and Yeti, that is all.

I don't get this. I just don't get it. A pie in the face of a monster is actually a pretty logical line of thinking in a cartoon game. Sure it's not a slapstick comedy game or Loony Toons or something, but it's not THAT far fetched either.

[Blackthorne519]

Yeah, if you can't figure out that you can throw a pie in something's face, press the 'esc' key and a Rhesus Monkey will come out and hit you on the head with a tack-hammer because you are an idiot.


Bt

[Alex IDV]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne519

Yeah, if you can't figure out that you can throw a pie in something's face, press the 'esc' key and a Rhesus Monkey will come out and hit you on the head with a tack-hammer because you are an idiot.


Bt

Let's not resort to insults, okay?

I haven't finished KQ5 yet, so I dunno about the build-up to that puzzle, but it does sound kind of weird. If I were in that situation, I would draw my sword or run or something. Throwing a pie could anger it.

[BagginsKQ]

If you took Blackthorne's comment as an insult you gots no sense a humor! ...and a thin skin!

Btw, there is no sword...

[caeska]

Originally Posted by Alex IDV

Let's not resort to insults, okay?

I haven't finished KQ5 yet, so I dunno about the build-up to that puzzle, but it does sound kind of weird. If I were in that situation, I would draw my sword or run or something. Throwing a pie could anger it.

But it makes perfect sense! In the guide "How to survive a Yeti attack", it's even recommended to have a custard pie handy. Throwing a pie at the attacking Yeti is one of the 99 acceptable ways of killing a Yeti, it's the one listed right after showing it a Chuck Norris action figure.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by Blackthorne519

Yeah, if you can't figure out that you can throw a pie in something's face, press the 'esc' key and a Rhesus Monkey will come out and hit you on the head with a tack-hammer because you are an idiot.


Bt

Especially since it is also one of the only throwable objects in your inventory at that point.

Yeti-pie-in-the-face is a classic KQ puzzle solution. Totally in keeping with the rest of the series, too, where you use a cookie to defeat a wizard, mint candies to defeat a genie, etc. In fact, name me a King's Quest game that DOESN'T use dessert to defeat a main baddie!

[KatieHal]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

Yeti-pie-in-the-face is a classic KQ puzzle solution. Totally in keeping with the rest of the series, too, where you use a cookie to defeat a wizard, mint candies to defeat a genie, etc. In fact, name me a King's Quest game that DOESN'T use dessert to defeat a main baddie!

To be fair, those other two desserts-for-the-win situations had build up to them, such that the solutions were clear. You don't run into anything pre-Yeti that would hint at the pie being the solution.

That said, pie-the-Yeti is far from the worst offender in that game. That honor is a tie between 'cheese powers the wand machine' and 'honey and emeralds will catch you an elf'.

[Blackthorne519]

People are way too over analytical these days. There is such a thing as thinking too much.


Bt

[MusicallyInspired]

Even the honecomb/emerald/elf thing has a sense of logic to it. It's just a bit far-fetched. The cheese in the machine, however, makes absolutely no sense.