How do you define 'dark' or 'darkness' and how does this relate to KQ?

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

I wouldn't call it dark at all. At least, not the cliche kind we're so used to seeing today. They're usually too comical, or perhaps to put it more accurately, they don't take themselves too seriously. I'd call them black humor, if anything.

Even considering the context of the time in which they were made? Today they might seem comical because we're so used to blood, guts, gore and every form of psychological horror...But in the late 1950s, early 1960s? I mean consider episodes like The Hitchhiker, or Living Doll, or Nightmare at 30,000 Feet....I don't really see any humor in them, not even black humor.

[Lambonius]

Well, perhaps you're right. When I say "black humor," I'm thinking of shows like Tales from the Crypt, which definitely falls into that category. I don't see Twilight Zone as being all too different from that vein. Also, there have been several iterations of the Twilight Zone, not all of which are from the 1950s or so.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by Lambonius

Well, perhaps you're right. When I say "black humor," I'm thinking of shows like Tales from the Crypt, which definitely falls into that category. I don't see Twilight Zone as being all too different from that vein. Also, there have been several iterations of the Twilight Zone, not all of which are from the 1950s or so.

Ah...I've never really watched anything Twilight Zone related outside of the original '50s show, which is generally played straight. I remember watching Tales from the Crypt as a kid though...Even as a kid it seemed kind of campy. I've heard, however, that the original Tales of the Crypt comic books from the '50s are kind of disturbing and truly dark, same goes for a lot of EC Comics' stuff. But I've never gotten the chance to see any of it for myself.

[Blackthorne519]

KQ4 definitely has some "darker" and creepier elements, without being overboard on it. Walking through Tamir has it's beautiful moments, but those grabby-trees are scary; the old run-down house is pretty creepy, but atmospheric - the graveyard is pretty scary.

It uses some "darker" elements as part of an overall palette of emotional elements to create a full experience. A common cliche today is to make everything so over-archingly "dark" and melodramatic, that it feels like you're caught in a teenager's view of what life is. I find so many people taking beloved figures from their childhood (Such as He-Man, Thundercats, Transformers) and making them "dark" as they are now adults. Maybe it's the cynicsm of finding out that life isn't the bag of fun and diamonds that you felt you were promised when you were a kid - when you find out that you're not the unique and special flower that people told you that you were all throughout your childhood you might get a little bitter. Problem is, today, that grown men and women just won't let go of that teen angst.


Bt

[BagginsKQ]

KQ4 has it's mix, west Tamir is very light and bright, filled with jolly characters such as the dwarfs, minstrel, pan, and Cupid, even a happy unicorn (at least until you are sent to capture it). Eastern Tamir is darker (not dark fiction dark, but dark as in lack of light), it also has horror elements (not the same thing as 'dark fiction' or 'dark fantasy').


Black humor and dark humor are the same thing actually. Often this type of humor has a psychological aspect to it... Thus why its kind of a subcategory of dark fiction, or often tied into dark fiction.

Alfred Hitchcock was the genius when it came to the macabre humor!

Dark and creepy are two separate issues...

Dark =/= Creepy you can have one without the other in a story. Creepy is more the horror direction, dark is more the psychological...

In KQ4 the dark psychological aspect is knowing that the clock is counting down, if your quest isn't successful you might be stuck in Tamir, or your father might die. There are psychological overtones in that you are being manipulated by an evil being in her plans to destroy and conquer the world.

But the game is also filled with many horror elements (the scary and the creepy) as well dark, dark =/= horror.

The thing about dark fiction is it tends to affect different people differently, it's more subtle and effects more at the psychological level. Horror tends to be more blunt and effects most audience (perhaps on a base emotional level).

That is why KQ6 can be described as having a darker tone, as it's subtle and may only be 'dark' to some on a psychological level, but not to the whole audience.

The Realm of the Dead has elements of dark, horror, and dark humor. All of these can interact but are not the same thing.

Another literary website described the difference as such;

Horror suggests the reader should expect to be left with an overwhelming feeling caused by something frightfully shocking, terrifying, or revolting — i.e. something horrific. Given this conventional definition of horror, for me, it doesn’t exist within fiction. Any events likely to provoke this type of reaction from me can only be found within the constraints of non-fiction.

Dark Fiction, on the other hand, rarely evokes a preconceived expectation as it doesn’t suggest the intensity of the ‘scare’ factor of the story. A story of a locust plague may not be considered horror by one reader, but will evoke extreme recoil from a reader suffering with entomophobia. Although the first reader may not consider the story to be horrific, I believe very few people would deny that this type of story has the potential to provoke a wide range of reactions from reader to reader depending on the intensity of their aversion to the subject matter.

Simply put, the term Dark Fiction is sympathetic to the gamut of subjective opinions, whereas Horror is far more restrictive in its definition.

Another good example, is KQ3 is a very bright and cheery setting (it is not 'physically dark'), even when you get to Daventry, everything is pretty colorful... But it touches on the dark psychological elements, such as the fact that you are a slave boy, that is routinely punished/tortured, is going to be killed soon, and must work against a clock to survive. There is also darkness to the fact that Daventry is not the same kingdom it once was, and also heading towards its doom, despite how bright the kingdom may look... You have a once fully benevolent king who is now willing to send innocent maidens, and his own daughter to their deaths, sacrificting them to a dragon... Who has locked himself in his castle in a state of hopelessness, awaiting his final destuction... You as a character are working againts a clock to save teh kingdom and your sister. The only way you can, is to resort to the use of dark and evil magic ('dark fantasy', tends towards the 'evil' side of 'dark' in meaning).

KQ3 is Dark without Horror (a good example that the two are separate issues)...

Here is a definition of 'dark fantasy' that I found in a literary/writer's glossary that might separate and give understanding to the different types of dark fiction;

dark fantasy: Character is up against a conflict that appears too severe to be overcome, and usually is along the lines of a horror atmosphere involving insurmountable odds/evil wizards/evil magic. Can be a modern or mythical setting. A psychological suspense element is often beneficial, perhaps essential.

Notice, it says similar to horror, but its not actually horror.

[Chyron8472]

Something doesn't have to be a Horror or Thriller in order to be dark. To be honest, I'm not all that crazy about horror movies, especially recent ones.

[Jerminator]

I don't agree with oversimplifying the meaning of dark storytelling. Either a story has a plot or it doesnt. In my mind there isnt such thing as pure evil. So every antagonist in a story has a reason for doing the things they do. Not saying their choices are the correct ones but they always have a twisted motivation or they are led to believe that the bad deeds they are doing are not actually bad. If the villian is truly twisted then you'd have to agree that they are not normal or have a psycological issue for their reasoning. (which I wont go into... Religion, madness....etc.

KQ in my opinion isnt supposed to be looked at in this way for me. Its a lighthearted adventure fantasy... classic good vs. not good. Theres witches, wizards, talking owls, even death himself. What I think is lost in our current state is that storytellers are trying to make these types of storys or games more realistic. Trying to attach emotional feelings and modern reactions to a genre that is purely meant to stay in the fantasy realm. Yes it may have dark elements but that's just a storytelling arc and nothing more to me.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Jerminator

classic good vs. not good. Theres witches, wizards, talking owls...

hahaha

I would classify Cedric as pure evil.

[BagginsKQ]

So any more ideas?

[Blackthorne519]

I think this is kind of a dead discussion. Pun intended!


Bt

[BagginsKQ]

Well now with certain latest releases... People might have fresh material to discuss...

[blueskirt]

It's complicated...

Take King's Quest V, Mordack has Cassima locked in his castle, working as his servant unless she agrees to marry him? This situation makes no sense when you are an adult, but in a child logic where babies are delivered by storks, it makes perfect sense. It's on this logic that King's Quest works. There is no war, sex or politics, good and evil are absolute values, there are no real life consequences and you're not supposed to think about the ramifications to anything, the second you do, the world and plot fall apart.

And it's this logic that keeps the darkness in King's Quest lighthearted. A logic that dictates nothing truly bad and irreversible ever happens to good persons, they are turned into tree or animals, shrunk, poisoned into deep sleep, conveniently swallowed whole by monsters, locked in towers... so they can be rescued later on. Even when Cassima's parents get killed, you go in the underworld to rescue them. I could be wrong, my memory is rather fuzzy, but as far as I remember and excluding the main character for obvious reasons, no good person ever died (permanently) in this series, except the king in the first game, who died of old age.

See where I'm going? It gets dark and scary at time, there are evil monsters and wizards all over the place, and of course, the player can die in dozens of different ways, but at the same time, even at its darkest hour, threat and bad guys motivations are simple, things remain lighthearted and after the direst torments, characters remain happy go lucky and live happily ever after (at least until the sequel.)

Approaching King's Quest with real life, adult or fridge logic is missing the point entirely, because like the Mario Bros universe, it works on its own internal, childish and whimsical logic.

[thom-22]

Originally Posted by blueskirt

(entire post)

Yes, very well stated.

I've been thinking about this, both in the context of this thread and in relation to having recently played The Silver Lining.

To me, darkness in fiction is a sense of foreboding or dread, intended and all-pervasive, as the likelihood of any kind of happy ending diminishes. KQ might have temporary moments of "impending doom", fairy-tale style, but you pretty much always know that things will work out satisfactorily in the end.

This is why TSL is so... weird. Mostly it's KQ-style adventuring, lighthearted and whimsical, interspersed with scenes showing the real-world anguish of fairy-tale tragedies -- dealt with in 21st-century fashion, no less, which makes it even weirder. It's totally disjointed and incongruous. Your final point really hits home: "Approaching King's Quest with real life, adult or fridge logic is missing the point entirely".

[Lambonius]

Two great, great posts right above this one. You've explained perfectly exactly why TSL's whole overarching concept sucks so hard, and is so blatantly anti-King's Quest. Nice.

[BagginsKQ]

A little OT but what kind of darkness would you call The Twilight Zone? It's not outright horror--But it is disturbing. Could it be called psychological darkness, ala Grimm's Fairy Tales?

It's pretty much 'psychological thriller'.

But what was scary or dark back then, isn't as scary and dark now. The standards have changed over time. The new standards are full of 'angsty' teenage age drama, and lots of violence and death...

[Blackthorne519]

Blueskirt hit it on the head. Well said. Perfect post, man. I might weep a little.


Bt

[Simo Sakari Aaltonen]

Re: The Twilight Zone...

Marc Scott Zicree points out very astutely in his introduction to The Twilight Zone Companion that it was the first television series to deal on a regular basis with alienation, loneliness, and isolation.

Probably most of the quintessential Twilight Zone episodes are about these existential questions - sense of meaninglessness, not belonging. Those are also typically the episodes that I feel have not dated at all, really, because no matter how well-adjusted or balanced we imagine ourselves, none of us are immune from these feelings that drive people to madness or suicide every day.

If it seems a minority concern or something, you just give it some time...

[blueskirt]

Thanks for the nice words, guys, I can't wait to play your Space Quest II and replay King's Quest III.

To me, darkness in fiction is a sense of foreboding or dread, intended and all-pervasive, as the likelihood of any kind of happy ending diminishes. KQ might have temporary moments of "impending doom", fairy-tale style, but you pretty much always know that things will work out satisfactorily in the end.

Exactly!

[BagginsKQ]

Also mind you the French Cannes (IIRC) film The Occurrence at Owl's Creek Bridge that the The Twilight Zone showed as as an episode is not funny or cheesy... It's a classic film...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Occurrence_at_Owl_Creek_Bridge_(film)