Are you kidding me with these graphics?

[Vainamoinen]

There's hardly a way to objectively describe why a certain scene is "more sad" than others. If the Lion King's your cup of tea, why not spill some tears there. If you like "24", things might be different for you personally.*

Transported emotion and the visuals of a game are, however, very connected. If you don't like the graphic portrayal of the characters, there's hardly a way to make the story really moving for you. Yet in the Law & Order series, actors did not really seem to display their emotions so openly. Facial expression did not play that much of a role for Vincent D'Onofrio or Ice-T at least.



* Disclaimer: I've only watched half the first season of "24" and I considered the naivety with which this show was written to be quite, quite comparable to The Lion King. I then suffered from cliché overload, and when I finally thought "one more cliché and I'm out of that series", one of the characters suddenly suffered from amnesia. So that was my little 24 story, while we're being off topic.

[Irishmile]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

....................It's funny to think that back when The Simpsons first made the leap from animated shorts to their own show the idea that a cartoon that wasn't aimed only at children could succeed was considered by many to be preposterous, and now it's like the most successful television show of all time. Shows like South Park, Family Guy, Futurama, etc, just further enforce what can be achieved with the medium.

Prior to the Simpsons the Flintstones had been the longest running cartoon in a primetime spot... while the Flintstones is known as wholesome entertainment it was infact aimed at a broad audience including adults... hence the primetime air time.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by caeska

Death of Buchanan
Death of Edgar
Death of Teri
Mason getting radiation poisoning
Death of Renee
Lynn McGill's death by nerve gas
Jack being taken to a Chinese prison
Wayne Palmer's assassination attempt
Daniels completing Wayne's term
President Taylor effectively ending her term after Season 8
Suitcase nuke blowing killing countless innocents
Jack being forced to sacrifice Paul Rayne's life to save a terrorist
James Heller being forced to resign after confronting President Logan
Airforce One being shot down and killing President Keeler's son
Jack being forced to kill Curtis

That took me less than 45 seconds to come up with, and there are many more moments that far exceed the Simba scene.

That list was pretty much what I was expecting, a bunch of secondary, poorly developed character deaths and M. Night Shyamalan-like twists-for-the-sake-of-twists that leave most viewers shocked rather than genuinely saddened, so shocked they have to tune into the next episode and the next season to see what happens next ("24" is a one-trick pony that way).

You may find these things sadder than Mustafa's death but I'm willing to wager that all but the most ardent "24" fans and/or the most despondent animated film detractors would completely agree with you.

Originally Posted by Irishmile

Prior to the Simpsons the Flintstones had been the longest running cartoon in a primetime spot... while the Flintstones is known as wholesome entertainment it was infact aimed at a broad audience including adults... hence the primetime air time.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[RyanKaufman]

Yeah, I dunno. If you're relying on photo-realism to move your audience, you're doing it wrong.

[Bloody Eugene]

Originally Posted by RyanKaufman

Yeah, I dunno. If you're relying on photo-realism to move your audience, you're doing it wrong.

Yeah.
"Style" > "Photorealism"

[yoman45135]

Originally Posted by Woodsyblue

A perfect example. It's funny to think that back when The Simpsons first made the leap from animated shorts to their own show the idea that a cartoon that wasn't aimed only at children could succeed was considered by many to be preposterous, and now it's like the most successful television show of all time. Shows like South Park, Family Guy, Futurama, etc, just further enforce what can be achieved with the medium.

Is the simpsons serious?!! No it's not even the slightest and my point was a cartoony style is less serious than a more real life looking graphics.

[harrisonpink]

Originally Posted by yoman45135

Is the simpsons serious?!! No it's not even the slightest and my point was a cartoony style is less serious than a more real life looking graphics.

I don't know. I've watched a lot of serious things that were "cartoony" that were very emotionally evocative. How about Akira? How about the ending to Bastion? All it was was a painting, a song and a narrator's voice over and I was almost in tears.

Just goes to show that it's a bit silly to say one style is more emotionally evocative than the other. It all comes down to the story-teller's ability to draw you in and make you care about the characters.

[yoman45135]

Originally Posted by harrisonpink

I don't know. I've watched a lot of serious things that were "cartoony" that were very emotionally evocative. How about Akira? How about the ending to Bastion? All it was was a painting, a song and a narrator's voice over and I was almost in tears.

Just goes to show that it's a bit silly to say one style is more emotionally evocative than the other. It all comes down to the story-teller's ability to draw you in and make you care about the characters.

Ok this sounds like im being a smartass but I dont mean to sound like one, If there is a cartoon film and a family are crying because there dog died, but then there was a real life version with the same thing I would find the real life version more sad because you believe it more, if it is all cartoony and full of really silly jokes then you dont believe it and you can say: 'Just a cartoon it's not real'.

Yes maybe SOMETIMES < (Look what I just said everyone only sometimes :P)
Sometimes a more cartoony film or tv program or even a game can be sad but it is never more sad than a real life thing because if it looks real you can believe it more and be more sad.

Of course it is too late for telltale to change the style for law and order but I am very sure they will get more very big franchises (Maybe a back to the future season 2 wink wink)
But you need to think about making better graphics and as I have said many time's it doesnt have to be like La noire but at least something I can believe and say, 'Well done telltale I can see you put effort into every aspect of the game 10/10'

On a side note.
I really like the back to the future game but the only problem was the graphics, it had a fantastic story and I liked the characters but then when I looked at the graphics I was dissapointed because if the graphics had been better I would of believed the game was more of a continuation and not so much another cartoon series.

[harrisonpink]

Originally Posted by yoman45135

if it is all cartoony and full of really silly jokes then you dont believe it and you can say: 'Just a cartoon it's not real'

Aha, but now we're talking about two different things. Cartoony visuals and cartoony writing. Silly jokes would of course ruin anything dramatic and emotional, but the same can be said of a silly program that's not a cartoon. The Three Stooges comes to mind. You laugh when the characters beat each other up, because it's written to be silly. If that were happening in real life, it would be monsterous!

Originally Posted by yoman45135

But you need to think about making better graphics and as I have said many time's it doesnt have to be like La noire but at least something I can believe and say, 'Well done telltale I can see you put effort into every aspect of the game 10/10'

I can vouch 100% that the people who make games at Telltale do it because it's their passion. There isn't a person I've met at Telltale who puts less than their whole heart into what they do here, if that counts for anything :P

[Ribs]

This argument is going nowhere - Different people think the game should go for different styles. Telltale made a decision rather than some half-way monster. And I'd say that's a brave, bold thing to do.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by yoman45135

Ok this sounds like im being a smartass but I dont mean to sound like one, If there is a cartoon film and a family are crying because there dog died, but then there was a real life version with the same thing I would find the real life version more sad because you believe it more, if it is all cartoony and full of really silly jokes then you dont believe it and you can say: 'Just a cartoon it's not real'.

I don't think that's true at all. I often find that cartoons can have heightened emotional impacts if done well. I have friends who outright refuse to watch the Futurama episode "Jurassic Bark" because the ending makes them collapse into a fit of tears and sobbing.

[yoman45135]

But I said that you dont believe as much, yes sometimes cartoons can be sad and there are a few serious cartoon films but they are not based on a book or another film but telltale make game's for big franchises which are real life, so if telltale can make better graphics why not use better graphics it would be easier and they would get more ratings in the graphic aspect of thing's but if they dont bother with graphics there is nothing good.

[coolsome]

Originally Posted by yoman45135

But I said that you dont believe as much, yes sometimes cartoons can be sad and there are a few serious cartoon films but they are not based on a book or another film.

Batman DC Animated Universe films are way more emotionally gripping then any of the live films including Dark Knight.

[yoman45135]

Originally Posted by coolsome

Batman DC Animated Universe films are way more emotionally gripping then any of the live films including Dark Knight.

I disagree, the dark knight was very emotional and batman forever was very tense sometimes

[coolsome]

Originally Posted by yoman45135

I disagree, the dark knight was very emotional

I really only liked the joker parts the rest wasn't that good for me.

and batman forever was very tense sometimes

Batman Mask of the Phantasm was theatricality released about 1 or 2 years before Batman Forever and there's no way in hell that anyone could think batman forever is more dramatic then mask of the phantasm.

[Jennifer]

Originally Posted by coolsome

Batman Mask of the Phantasm was theatricality released about 1 or 2 years before Batman Forever and there's no way in hell that anyone could think batman forever is more dramatic then mask of the phantasm.

I agree. In that example the live action film is definitely sillier and more cartoony than the animated film.

[Faceslasher]

It's an artstyle, besides the graphics are like Sam and Max IMO. If Sam and Max was done now this argument would have happened.

Look at TF2, it's graphics are downed due to an ARTSTYLE.

[yoman45135]

Originally Posted by Jennifer

I agree. In that example the live action film is definitely sillier and more cartoony than the animated film.

I disagree completley batman forever was only a bit silly most parts were really serious

[Falanca]

Originally Posted by caeska

Because this is absolutely ridicilous.
When is TTG going to learn and actually implement some proper graphics and animations into their games?
While this style of graphics is too cartoony and doesn't fit the L&O genre at all but I wouldn't mind that so much if Telltale would just take the graphics aspect somewhat seriously.

Now, this is a valid argument and I agree wholeheartedly.

Originally Posted by caeska

The graphics aspect is so important in a computer game that in many cases, it determines whether it becomes a success or failure. And it is one of the most contributing factors to replay value and how drawn you as a player get into the game.

And it's where you drop the ball in my opinion. I know this is said to death, especially in these forums by dozens of people already -everyone's used to hear it I think people started to call people agree with me here "the hippies of videogaming"- but graphics are only an aspect and depending on the variety of the game itself and the promises of the developers depending on its production value, budget, etc.; the kind of graphics Telltale uses for their games can still be used to the way to success, given that "success" itself is relative. A game that makes more money than what has been paid for, is a success. The chimes of fan appreciation through your communication channels, are a sign of success. For example, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 is sadly a success. At the same time, indie game Terraria is also a MAJOR success even though the community of the latter example is much smaller. As I said before, the tone of the game you aim for is also a big defining factor on which visual style you need to go for.

[Woodsyblue]

Originally Posted by yoman45135

I disagree completley batman forever was only a bit silly most parts were really serious

Is this... is this a joke? Have you seen Batman Forever? It's one of the most over-the-top, ridiculous and silly films ever produced! (Bested in this regard perhaps only by its sequel.) Tommy Lee Jones EATS the scenery, Jim Carrey is... well Jim Carrey, and Joel Schumacher seems to be under the impression that the only real Batman worth imitating is Adam West and the gang.

But forget all this for a moment, the argument that you are attacking isn't 'Is Batman Forever a silly or serious film?' it's 'Is Batman Forever sillier than Batman Mask of the Phantasm?' Have you seen Batman Mask of the Phantasm, because you make no mention of it? If not then you can't really have anything constructive to add to the conversation.

Your quote defending Batman Forever as a serious film shows that you have a blinding prejudice against animation over live action, one so strong and fervent your argument could be considered irrational.