Best and Worst KQ game?

[BagginsKQ]

I have to say 3 is my second least favorite after 7... It just doesn't have a good puzzle system. Most of the puzzles and items needed in the game are 'written' out in the manual. Those spells are then used for most of the rest of the puzzles...

It's got interesting atmosphere and a good story, but over did it with the spells vs. regular style adventure puzzles.

[Lambonius]

Originally Posted by BagginsKQ

I have to say 3 is my second least favorite after 7... It just doesn't have a good puzzle system. Most of the puzzles and items needed in the game are 'written' out in the manual. Those spells are then used for most of the rest of the puzzles...

It's got interesting atmosphere and a good story, but over did it with the spells vs. regular style adventure puzzles.

I agree. I think you pretty much nailed what I dislike about that game. If the spells had been fewer and a little more limited in their uses (not the solution to practically every puzzle) it would have been a lot better. This is one area where I felt AGDI improved it quite a bit with Redux.

[exo]

maybe a bit off topic, but I think Loom and KQ3 are very similar in their approach. KQ3 had a specific number of spells and ingredients listed out for them, while Loom had a specific number of magical songs all based on a basic 5 notes that you had to learn throughout the game.

However, even once you had accomplished the necessary tasks to learn a new note (and therefor unlock a new batch of songs), it was not always extremely obvious when to use a particular song. Then the fact that songs could be played backwards to a reverse effect added a whole different aspect to the game.

I bring this up simply because I agree that i was not a huge fan of KQ3 compared to the rest of the series, and I think that the games spell-based style could have been implemented in a stronger way... and Loom demonstrates that for me.

[BagginsKQ]

Part of the power of Loom's spell puzzles, was spells could be 'reversed' by playing the distaff backwards! You had to experiment to figure out how to use those spells...


If ever there was a sequel, I would like to play... Loom 2 would be it ...

[exo]

Originally Posted by exo

Then the fact that songs could be played backwards to a reverse effect added a whole different aspect to the game.

Looks like we were on the same page there.

Loom was originally designed to be the first part of a larger story (or at least Brian Moriarty now claims it was... he didn't always say this). As an example however, there is a scene in one of the seer spheres that shows a volcano exploding, which was supposed to be in the sequel. There were also several drafts in the spellbook that were unused.

[MusicallyInspired]

As I understood it, the sequels weren't going to be about the weavers but other guilds. The second game being called "Forge"?

[Irishmile]

Loom was ok.. I could never really convince myself to adore it like I do Monkey Island and Kings Quest games.

[MusicallyInspired]

It definitely wasn't the best LA game, but it wasn't the worst either. It was quite interesting, just shallow and a little short. Ehh....shallow is the wrong word, but it's not as "full" as the other LA games. I had a great time in its universe, though. Wonderful game.

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

It definitely wasn't the best LA game, but it wasn't the worst either. It was quite interesting, just shallow and a little short. Ehh....shallow is the wrong word, but it's not as "full" as the other LA games. I had a great time in its universe, though. Wonderful game.

I think you're describing a sort of "interaction emptiness" -- a feeling caused by players not being able to examine and manipulate the environment to the degree possible in other LucasArts and (especially) Sierra games.

In other words, there's a low "interaction density." Loom is pretty, but its uncomplex style of gameplay doesn't involve too much investigation of your surroundings.

I do think it might've also helped a bit if the game hadn't been cut down somewhat to save disk space. There was quite a bit of worldbuilding content cut from Crystalgard in particular.

In one room in the Glassmakers' City there were three giant hourglasses symbolically representing the Three Shadows. The first two hourglasses had long ago run out and were sealed up, but the third was still open and had sand continually poured in it by a worker to keep it running. The room layout of the game datafiles suggests that later in the game, after Chaos is unleashed, we'd have gotten to see their shattered remains. A similar aborted idea involved the "Chromax Conundrum" diamond chalice, which apparently was going to be destroyed during Bobbin's first visit.

Not to mention the fact that many of the beautiful backgrounds had their edges trimmed down more or less extensively (sometimes eliminating whole screen-widths of image--there was initially a much larger Shepherds' forest, for instance).

[BagginsKQ]

The VGA/CD version even cut back on the old 16 color version. Removing some of the lines/conversation trees, graphics and IIRC alternative puzzle solutions?

It's butchered...

[MusicallyInspired]

It did remove a LOT of the closeups and cut down on the text. It's not horrible, though. It does have great music and speech. And the VGA is nice too. I wouldn't say butchered.

[ATMachine]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

It did remove a LOT of the closeups and cut down on the text. It's not horrible, though. It does have great music and speech. And the VGA is nice too. I wouldn't say butchered.

The FM Towns version is the best of both worlds, of course, being VGA yet preserving the EGA dialogue and character closeups. Pity it's so hard/expensive to come by.

Incidentally, I've seen old promotional videos and screenshots from the 90s which convince me that LucasArts actually did start internally developing a PC VGA upgrade of the original floppy-disk Loom, but for some reason it never got published.

[Lambonius]

I think a Loom sequel would be right up Telltale's alley, especially considering the relative lack of interactivity of Loom's world vs. other Lucasarts games that used the verb icons. Granted, the real question would be whether or not Telltale could make a game that had the cleverly designed puzzles of Loom, with the backward/forward distaff draft mechanics and such.

[BagginsKQ]

I still have of yet not heard the 'introductory' story for Loom... The one came on casette with the earliest releases of the ame... They should toss that in as a bonus with the digital online copies of the game ...

[exo]

I think you guys hit the nail on the head with the lack of complexity in the background world. What made the game fun was the puzzles themselves, many of which were well thought out. I'd like to think Tell Tale would do a great job with that license, but after playing most TT games to date, I have never seen a puzzle as devious or indepth as some of the ones in Loom. Lucas arts often forced the player to think in "different dimensions". In Day of the Tentacle for example you have three main protagonists, each in a different time period... and sometimes you have to be very creative in order to find ways to get an object from one person to another. While also taking into account the effects that the passage of time will have on said items.

TT's Sam and Max games all seemed to have 1 medium difficulty puzzle per game, and then a lot of basic use-item-here functions. I suppose I'm just tired of 'episodic' gaming and the lack of immersion that comes along with it.

I actually have that Loom cassette, but I have never played it. I remember it catching me off guard when I opened the box to find a cassette tape, hehe. That seemed more dated then 5.25" disks.

[MusicallyInspired]

Telltale thrives on conversation puzzles. Loom didn't have many of those.

[exo]

The problem I have with conversation puzzles, is you can simply click every option until you get through it.

I suppose one could argue that inventory puzzles could be soled by clicking every item on every other item or an object... but at least in that instance you have to find the proper items first.

[BagginsKQ]

Actually for conversation puzzles; if they are done correctly, you have to have learned facts from other locations first, before you can use those facts in a conversation.

Otherwise conversations will go in circles, or end without going anywhere.

In Indiana Jones adventure games for example, not having the right information to solve conversation puzzles could lead to scaring off the person you are trying to get information from. Or perhaps cause them to attack you! Turn into a fist fight.

In Gabriel Knight, you simply couldn't continue until you had learned some facts from somewhere else to initiate a new line of questioning.

Thus conversation 'lines' are similar to 'finding an inventory item'. If you didn't find the subject to question about, or bluff your way through a conversation, you might find yourself in a dead end, or forced into a more violent outcome.

[thom-22]

I have difficulty imagining Loom -- and in particular the loom -- in 3D. Could you model all those parallel strands individually with the color changes and all? Without looking too cartoony?

[MusicallyInspired]

Yep. I mean, Telltale couldn't. But it's possible. But isn't the game cartoony anyway?