The Great Sherlock Thread

[Friar]

Originally Posted by Ribs

Well, it isn't the end, there will be a third series - However, Moff/Gatiss are rather busy with Doctor Who until the end of the year, so we probably won't see it until Summertime of 2013.

Also, Bendict will be off filming star trek soon, and Arthur Dent (sorry, I ALWAYS forget his name.) is off filming the Hobbit.

No, it isn't similar to the relationship between the Doctor and the Master. The Master, when concieved by Robert Holmes and Barry Letts, was to be the Moriarty to The Doctor's Sherlock - however, their relationship has since turned into an odd relationship more representing that reminscent of Mycroft and Sherlock, as there has not been a single occasion where the Master even comes close to winning, and isn't really a nemesis as much as a common nuisance.

So conquering the earth for a year and killing off 1/10th of the population counts as a nusiance? And Converting the entire human race into him and then finding the cause of his madness doesn't count as a victory? Plus the master killed the doctor by forcing him to fall from a great height.

Benedict Cumberbatch should not play the Doctor because he looks too much like a thin Tom Baker. He's also already a big star so unlikely. But this thread is to discuss Sherlock, not Doctor Who!

Peter Davison was a big name too! We want Benedict! We want Benedict!

Theoretically, the first Episode of next series will be the Empty House, which would make sense given the odd establishing shot of one of Moriarty's assasins in the last episode. Then maybe one of the novels again, before ending with... something. I do hope they scope out a multi-series plan, though, as I would love to see three or so more series showing Sherlock age and eventually retire, which is one of my favorite parts about Sherlock Holmes - he doesn't get the grand finale, he's just a person in the end and he ends up dying a insignificant death.

Have they done a completely original tale yet? I'd like to see them try that.

*cough* Sherlock vs. The daleks. *cough*

[FitzoliverJ]

Originally Posted by Ribs

one of my favorite parts about Sherlock Holmes - he doesn't get the grand finale, he's just a person in the end and he ends up dying a insignificant death.

What? Sherlock Holmes never dies, except in inferior pastiches.





He's still alive today. He's just celebrated his 158th birthday in the last few days.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by FitzoliverJ

What? Sherlock Holmes never dies, except in inferior pastiches.





He's still alive today. He's just celebrated his 158th birthday in the last few days.

Well, he becomes an old man and mostly stops solving cases, and dies a presumably quiet death is what I meant by that.

Also, Reichenbach got an AI figure of 91, which is unprecedented. Only Downton Abbey regularly beats that (and Journey's End of Doctor Who did slightly better), with most TV averaging in the mid-80s.

Also; The Master did never win, because the events were undone. He always loses: even when he destroys what seems to be half the universe in Logopolis, the Doctor manages to stop him and beat him at some point.

[LuigiHann]

Given Britain's relatively relaxed attitude towards swearing on television, and given that the characters in this version tend to call each other by their first names, I'm surprised we've gone two seasons without anybody saying "No shit, Sherlock."

Do they not have that expression in Europe?

[FitzoliverJ]

Originally Posted by LuigiHann

Given Britain's relatively relaxed attitude towards swearing on television, and given that the characters in this version tend to call each other by their first names, I'm surprised we've gone two seasons without anybody saying "No shit, Sherlock."

Do they not have that expression in Europe?

Yes, but the expression stems from Sherlock Holmes himself - the point being that "No shit, Sherlock" is a sarcastic response to something that has been said that is staggeringly obvious and whcih would not need a detective of great deductive abilities to work out - and so, since there wasn't a 19thC Sherlock Holmes in the show's universe, there is no reason for the phrase to exist.

Incidentally, I've got a great idea for the third series. Originally, Conan Doyle was contracted to the 'Strand' for so many stories. "The Final Problem" was not part of this series, and had to be paid for seperately. In the short story itself, Watson says he had no intention to write it, except that Col Moriarty has been defending his brother's name in the press, and Watson wanted to set the record straight.
So, what if Colonel Moriarty starts work, oh, let's say, on a television show in America based on Sherlock Holmes, and the real detective has to come back to ensure the stupid rip-off merchants' operations are is shut down and his reputation is restored?!

[LuigiHann]

Yeah but the phrase "No shit" still exists, and it's only a matter of time before somebody says it to Sherlock by coincidence, hence hilarity.

Incidentally, I loved the use of the deerstalker cap in 201. "The last thing I need is a public image." Perfect.

Spoilers that have bugged me:


The resolution to the season 1 cliffhanger at the beginning of season 2 felt really cheap. Why would Moriarty's phone ringing stop Sherlock from shooting the bomb? Why would Moriarty's phone ringing stop the snipers from shooting Sherlock? It would have been badass if Sherlock had shot the bomb, and it turned out to be a bluff, because Moriarty had outthought him even to that point.

My only problem with the Hound episode is that in this day and age, a dog genetically modified to be exceptionally large and aggressive doesn't seem particularly unbelievable to me. Heck, outside of the glowing eyes, you could probably just breed a dog like that without genetic modifications. I guess my point is it just struck me as odd that the "fear gas from Batman Begins" is somehow the grounded-in-reality solution and "big scary dog" is the far-fetched one, when they seem equally probable at best.

Finally, a couple things about the season 2 finale's ending bugged me. Moriarty's shooting himself didn't quite ring true to me, just because it seems like he'd want to be around to see Sherlock fail one way or the other, and even if he's crazy he could have left Sherlock stranded without offing himself. But I can kind of accept that as his ultimate move since he felt like he had won already.

From a filmmaking perspective, Sherlock's fall bugged me, just because they showed all of it, and they basically showed it from Sherlock's perspective. There's basically no way that a body-switch of any kind could have happened between the time that the very alive, very real Sherlock hung up the phone to the time that he smashed into the ground, unless the cinematography lied to us in a very specific way that I think is basically cheating. If the scene had been showed primarily from Watson's perspective, I would have accepted it unquestioning, since there we'd have the perspective of somebody being fooled by Sherlock's plan, whatever it is, but an omniscient camera shouldn't have been fooled. I feel like, as the scene was filmed, the switch could only have happened after Sherlock hit the ground, which could maybe be part of the answer. I guess we'll see.

Overall I've really been enjoying the show. I must be, to like it enough to nitpick.

[Ribs]

On the fall - The way it's done is very subtle at hiding things. Sherlock jumps off the building, Watson runs over and falls down, we see Sherlock's body land on the path (but at a different angle then he fell) and he has no pulse and blood is on his head. On Watson's blog (johnwatson.co.uk) there is no report of Moriarty/Brooks' body on the roof as well.

My theory on how it's done - there's a gap in time between Moriarty's death and John arriving. Sherlock then takes a small dosage of one of the chemicals mentioned earlier in the episode (which also featured in the Ritchie films) that also slows your pulse. This takes a few minutes to take effect, so he bides the time once John arrives by talking to him. A side effect of said chemical is watery eyes - thus explaining why Sherlock starts tearing up. Once he tears up, he's able to jump, and jumps. Molly/Mycroft hired someone to slow John down by knocking him over, and John fails to see Sherlock cushion his fall by landing in the nearby garbage truck, pouring blood Molly supplied to him on his face (the blood is clearly not coming from his head when watched at an angle). Sherlock then rolls out of the truck and lands with a few feet's fall onto the path, where he is surrounded by a group of people. Watson walks over and takes his pulse as the body is taken inside. Molly switches the body with that of Moriarty from the roof, and Mycroft 'confirms' that the body is Sherlock's, and Moriarty is buried in Sherlock's place.

My other favorite theory is that the building Sherlock is standing on is not the same building that Watson is seeing Sherlock fall from, and it is instead a double. Which'd be mad but brilliant.

[Origami]

I started watching this series last year and I have to say....overall Season 2 did the impossible and actually topped season 1 imho.

I am going to just say one thing and with that everything should be said;
This series is almost better than sex.

[FitzoliverJ]

My theory is that there was a trampoline on the back of the lorry, and Sherlock just bounced off that onto the pavement and poured a bit of blood round the place, feigning death. Mollie could then have signed a dodgy death certificate. The lorry drove off so we didnt see what was on it.

[Alcoremortis]

I've got it. There was a truck with a cloth roof that was driving under the building just then. He jumped onto it and the cloth bit broke his fall, just the way it works in Broken Sword!

Yeah, then all that blood pouring stuff, slow heart rate yadda yadda.

Alternatively, he had a blow up raft and pulled an Indiana Jones.

[FitzoliverJ]

Are we *really* supposed to think that "Elementary" won't be a rip-off of "Sherlock"?! Now it has been announced that the Great Detective will be played by... well, an actor already considered interchangeable with Benedict Cumberbatch!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17038465

[Secret Fawful]

Andrew Scott's Moriarty is one of the coolest villain portrayals I've ever seen. I find myself copying him and quoting him all the time, and Stayin Alive is totally my ringtone now.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by Secret Fawful

Andrew Scott's Moriarty is one of the coolest villain portrayals I've ever seen. I find myself copying him and quoting him all the time, and Stayin Alive is totally my ringtone now.

He's like Evil Graham Norton and it's completely brilliant. The fact they did what Conan Doyle did and barely featured him in person until the very very end made him all the more interesting; he does not have a scene that is easily forgettable, simple as that. He's genuinely frightening, and more importantly, is a fresh take on a character that has been blandly portrayed as 'evil professor' for ages in every possible adaptation. The show may be worse off without him.

[FitzoliverJ]

Originally Posted by FitzoliverJ

Are we *really* supposed to think that "Elementary" won't be a rip-off of "Sherlock"?!

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/ustv/s12...y-casting.html

Looks like Beryl Vertue is concerned.

(Mind you.... maybe they can do a story where London-Sherlock teams up with his long-lost brother New York-Sherlock to solve a crime that Robert Downey Jr couldn't solve a hundred years previously?)

[LuigiHann]

Well, that's weird. American TV already has a show based on a clever modern spin on Sherlock Holmes, and while I got bored with it quite some time ago it still seems to be ongoing. On the one hand, that gives you an idea of how broad the spectrum is, in terms of the potential to reimagine the character in different ways, so this show too could turn out to be quite different... but on the other hand, looking at that spectrum just makes it more obvious how much less different the premise of Elementary is from that of Sherlock. Guess we'll see

[Ribs]

House is ending this year, though. And it's not just the really smart modern detective, it's more so that it is overtly a Sherlock remake rather then hiding it .

[FitzoliverJ]

The new Radio Times features a less-than-serious attempt at predicting the content of CBS's forthcoming series. "Holmes and Watson go to Hawaii" sounds fairly probable, though.

[FitzoliverJ]

Originally Posted by FitzoliverJ

maybe they can do a story where London-Sherlock teams up with his long-lost brother New York-Sherlock to solve a crime that Robert Downey Jr couldn't solve a hundred years previously?)

But only if Jonny Lee Miller is hanging around with Harry Watson....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...-sidekick.html

(Hang on, didn't they watch "Sherlock Holmes in the 22nd Century"? He had a female sidekick in that.... *And* in at least one of those live-action unfreeze-Holmes-today movies. And then there's Mary Russell. And...)

[Vainamoinen]

All right guys, here I am, late to the party as ever. But my Season 2 has only recently arrived. I will go on without spoiler tags, so if you haven't seen Season 2, don't bother!!!

Season 2 was even better than Season 1, which is quite an achievement. That's not to say that the Moffat-Gattissesque exaggeration did not apply, and the plotholes were even greater this time. "Reichenbach Falls" had the best scenes and the greatest plot (Sherlock in court was THE BOMB), but also plotholes the size of England. These two guys NEED an army of script evaluators to tell them what just plain doesn't work!!! Instead, they run completely free. During production, no one has asked them: Why indeed did that girl cry when she saw Sherlock? How can a "genius" assume that computer programs, even the smallest, could be communicated by beating on wood (Moriarty wouldn't have been able to keep the rhythm - let alone arrive at one kilobyte of information in those five minutes AND drink that tea )? If the uber-villain commits suicide out of boredom, wouldn't the viewer do the same thing? The finale setup also just doesn't work.

So although the best scenes are in Reichenbach, I actually liked Belgravia much better. Its ending was a massive exaggeration given Holmes' not exactly impressive infiltration techniques (I'm sure terrorists do not accept Mycroft's ID). But the psychology that was presented made sense to me, shed a lot of light on Sherlock's character without ruining the emotional ice-block that he is. If love works for that character, then like this. I hope Adler will return in one of the next three movies - but only one, please.

Watson was a bit underrepresented, though. The only real focus on the character in Season 2 was in Baskerville. John Watson "pulling rank", that was hilarious. Also, he could investigate a bit himself in that film. In the other episodes, he suffers from the "loyal companion" problem. His relationships fail because of Sherlock, he is always there for him, Watson is the blog writer, the go-between for the Holmes' brothers. That de-characterises him a bit, I feel. A little more focus on Watson's actual relationships - with his sister, for example - and at least a reference to his actual psychological problem of Season 1, the addiction to the thrill of the fight, would have been touches to get Watson through this series better.

The character that really gained in S2 was Mrs. Hudson. While she looked like an innocent, shocked bystander/old lady stereotype in Season 1, we feel that she is actually Sherlock's accomplice in Season 2. And Sherlock does love her somewhat; insults her regularly, but would never bear that someone else also insults her. Telling us that without her, England would fall. And when she gets tortured, Sherlock wants serious revenge.

Originally Posted by FitzoliverJ

What? Sherlock Holmes never dies, except in inferior pastiches.

Conan Doyle would have sighed at this. Oh, how hard he tried to kill Sherlock in Reichenbach so he could write more historical novels! But the public wouldn't let him. Ohhhh no.

[Ribs]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

All right guys, here I am, late to the party as ever. But my Season 2 has only recently arrived. I will go on without spoiler tags, so if you haven't seen Season 2, don't bother!!!

Season 2 was even better than Season 1, which is quite an achievement. That's not to say that the Moffat-Gattissesque exaggeration did not apply, and the plotholes were even greater this time. "Reichenbach Falls" had the best scenes and the greatest plot (Sherlock in court was THE BOMB), but also plotholes the size of England. These two guys NEED an army of script evaluators to tell them what just plain doesn't work!!! Instead, they run completely free. During production, no one has asked them: Why indeed did that girl cry when she saw Sherlock? How can a "genius" assume that computer programs, even the smallest, could be communicated by beating on wood (Moriarty wouldn't have been able to keep the rhythm - let alone arrive at one kilobyte of information in those five minutes AND drink that tea )? If the uber-villain commits suicide out of boredom, wouldn't the viewer do the same thing? The finale setup also just doesn't work.

I don't think any of those are plot holes - Sherlock feigned stupidity to draw Moriarty out of the shadows. The little girl thing could come up as important as a future plot point .