Limited Choices discussion (merged threads)

[ADavidson]

I was a bit disappointed with the story choices. Reminded me of LA Noir, where most game choices are superficial. If you pick Shawn he still dies the same. Even if the other chosen character died(Doug or Carlie), the other said the same things. And no matter what I said nothing changed story points, like Larry shoving you down even if you side with him. Oh and with Glenn, if you hand the girl the gun he says how can you let people give up but if you refuse he says how can you deny someone's choice! The character's in the game should have the same convictions no matter what you choose, this is unacceptable character development.

Supposedly the choices of Episode 1 greatly affect how everyone views you though... I sure hope the following episodes prove more impressive with the choices, and I realllllly hope it branches out and expands more. For a 2hr game it should have a lot more possibilities.

I know it's only a $5 game, just please don't let me down.

Otherwise, the story itself was awesome, the gameplay is really good and the art style is incredible. Still the best TT game to date! Keep it up guys!

[WabbitTwaks]

I would have to disagree with what you stated about Larry choices.

I think no matter what you do for Larry, he will NOT like you and will try to kill you. He is one of those judgmental assholes and he sees Lee as a murderer only. To him, that means Lee does not deserve to live.

The Glenn thing I have to agree with. He really should be one way or the other, not swap only because you made a particular decision. At the end, if you had given the girl the gun, he does begin to understand the reasons behind it. I have yet to play the other branch of that to the end to see his reaction there.

I think there will be a few other choices we made that just need more time to come to fruition within the story. Episode 1 has been more about survival and reaching relative safety. I think later Eps will show more reactions to choices we made in 1.

[ADavidson]

Yeah I hope you're right.... I'm skeptical so far, and hate when there's just an illusion of choice/effect.

If they pull it off, it could be one of the greatest gaming achievements in history! Even Mass Effect choices were pretty weak in the overall story, and as I said before, LA Noir although a great game, did not really have any choices that mattered whatsoever. When you go back and play a different way, you get the same results no matter what.

As long as TWD has at least a few branches I'll be happy. It would be even better tho if you actually went to a few different locations due to your choices, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

Either way, still an amazing piece of entertainment, especially for $5 per 2hr episode!

[WabbitTwaks]

Agreed!

[G.Ross]

The designers are trying really hard to make those choices matter further down the rabbit hole. I'm hoping you'll be pleased.

[Saboteur-6]

I really hope they do. After reading ADavidson's original post I'm skeptical but hopeful.

[WabbitTwaks]

Originally Posted by G.Ross

The designers are trying really hard to make those choices matter further down the rabbit hole. I'm hoping you'll be pleased.

I know they are and understand just how hard that can be. If they pull it off, it will be a real historical moment. I can't wait!

further down the wabbit hole? *snarfle*

[Chillforce]

Originally Posted by G.Ross

The designers are trying really hard to make those choices matter further down the rabbit hole. I'm hoping you'll be pleased.

Yesssssss! I am so excited! Best zombie game ever!

[Braveheartt]

The game was more linear than I was hoping. Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed EP1 and can't wait for the next installment (can't it be weekly? Every 2 weeks? Please? ) but I felt as though there wasn't really a great deal of choices to make that had any significant effect on the story.

Okay it's only episode 1, but there's only 5 episodes, so surely the first one should do more than just set the scene. I wanted to see events happen differently or not at all based on choices. The only real choice we had was who to save - why couldn't we have chosen to try to save both? Or none? Or at the beginning, why couldn't we have chosen a different way to kill the first zombie, logically everyone would go for the shotgun, but couldn't we have chosen to save the bullet and used the shotgun as a melee weapon? Then the horde wouldn't appear.

I don't want choices to only affect the ending or later down the line, it should have an effect on every episode. Choosing between two people did have an impact but hasn't really changed the story. I mean Hershel still speaks of lying no matter the choices made, or, Kenny still saves you despite choices made. We don't really get to affect the overall story, only small bits and pieces along the way differ.

Overall though fantastic game, but for me has yet to live up to the "choices tailor the story" claim. Also in an ideal world there'd be more in each episode or a shorter wait between each one.

[TexMurphy]

Originally Posted by ADavidson

And no matter what I said nothing changed story points, like Larry shoving you down even if you side with him.

I think Larry will always be a selfish jerk no matter what happens. Besides, I think it's being set up to where Larry will have a most satisfying and gruesome death.

[WabbitTwaks]

Just to throw my two cents in...

Originally Posted by Braveheartt

Or at the beginning, why couldn't we have chosen a different way to kill the first zombie, logically everyone would go for the shotgun, but couldn't we have chosen to save the bullet and used the shotgun as a melee weapon? Then the horde wouldn't appear.

Imagine this- You do not know the cop is a zombie, you do not know there are more zombies in the woods, and you do not know that zombies are attracted to loud noises. In fact, at the beginning of the zombie-pocolypse, you know absolutely zip about zombies. You have a shotgun and a shell for it in hand, with a fairly bloodied cop crawling at you, apparently to kill you. Now, are you really going to use that shotgun as a club? Really? Somehow, I doubt it.

Originally Posted by Braveheartt

I mean Hershel still speaks of lying no matter the choices made

If you are as honest as possible with him, he speaks of lying, but he doesn't come right out and call you a liar. He just lets you know that he knows there is more to you than you are saying. He is also much nicer about it at the end of the conversation.

[Vainamoinen]

Here's a fairly recent quote from Chuck Jordan (until 2010, he was with Telltale) on the failures of Mass Effect 3:

Essentially, BioWare created the problem for themselves by, to be blunt, promising more than they or any other developer could deliver. They’ve sold the Mass Effect series on the premise that the player can completely customize his character and his character’s story [...]. But even the largest team of writers and content creators won’t be able to deliver an indefinite number of conclusions that all have the same level of impact, satisfying enough to conclude a multi-year, multi-game epic series. People have been spending years trying to come up with a way to create systems that generate compelling narratives, and no one’s cracked the problem yet.

I think that is still the key problem here in The Walking Dead. You can't have the story branching out too much because Telltale would never finish the game and tie all loose ends. Particularly not in the first episode: Too much branching out in episode 1 and the design trouble will rise exponentially for the future episodes. If they're bold, we might get a real branch-out kicker by episode 3. If they're not, we'd at least get 800% more ending diversity in episode 5 than EA's undisputed failure delivered.

[Chillforce]

Originally Posted by Braveheartt

I mean Hershel still speaks of lying no matter the choices made

Here's how you avoid that. I'm not sitting here and doing it as i'm describing it but I can lead you in the right direction.
Wait til night. Don't say anything and Shawn will call you a Good Samaritan. When you meet Hershel, do the same and Shawn will introduce you as a Good Samaritan. Tell Hershel your name and that you hurt your leg in a car accident and that a cop was giving you a ride.
When it comes to the barn, I can't remember which choices I made which had him trusting me. Be sure you say "sure" when he asks if you want to hear his advice.

Anyway, there's some way very close to all that to get that. It's tough because Lee is a very poor liar.

[WabbitTwaks]

Shawn will call you a Good Samaritan in the daytime too if you stay silent

In the barn, tell Hershel that your family is in Macon. That's one I remember.

[WabbitTwaks]

I have noticed quite a few people are upset because they want more choices in the game. I understand the frustration of, “Why can’t I do this instead of only that?” I would like to try to explain a little as to why this is. Most of the following is opinion and speculation, but also with some understanding in the mechanics of writing and programming.

When building something in the magnitude of our newly beloved game, there must be limitations. The creators cannot build for every eventuality. The writing alone would take forever, and fill millions of pages. To put it mildly, to even make the attempt would be ludicrous.

The programming would be even worse. To allow for branching of the game in most cases, it is not as simple as adding or changing one line of code. Many times it includes complete new sections. Then to have those differences reflected as the game progresses, requires all that additional code in every place it would come into play. Can you see where this is going? Think of the Ripple Effect. It starts as a little ripple here, but as it gets farther away, it becomes bigger and bigger.

I am certain, when they began the process of creating this game; they had ideas for it flowing out of every pore. They wanted to include everything they possibly could. That is when the limitations kill things. So they have to decide where they must “trim the fat”, and where they can expand.

They look at every situation and decide the best ones to add meat to. Some are obvious choices and others not so much. There are some that may have room for expansion, but because most people would choose a particular path, it is decided to only create that path. Decisions like that help to keep things manageable without too much sacrifice.

Let me give a hypothetical example without giving away any spoilers. Let’s use the early scene of Lee and the newly-turned-zombie cop. (I saw this mentioned in another thread, which is what gave me the idea to write this. No disrespect is intended to the original post writer.)

Imagine, if you will, a room full of writers and programmers, all around a large table. The table is covered with papers, writing utensils, half-empty cups, and half-eaten donuts. This is how I see it happening…

“What can Lee do with the cop crawling after him to kill him?”

“What would most people do?”

“Well, they were just in a cop car. There must be a gun nearby, right?”

“Hell, yeah, shoot the sum-bitch. That’s what I’d do.”

“Hehe. That’s what most people would do.”

“Exactly, but where is it?”

“What about a pistol on his hip?”

“Good. What else?”

“There’s a shotgun in the car. Almost every cop car has a shotgun in that bracket in the front seat.”

“Hmmm. What if it was thrown from the car during the wreck?”

“The cop might have grabbed it to defend himself.”

“Perhaps, but either way, I like the shotgun over the pistol. Shotguns are better equipped for blowing heads off dead cops, and it gives good shock value to the initial kill scene.”

“Do we want to give them a shotgun right out of the gate? They might seem a bit too over-equipped for the start of the game.”

“How about we only give them one shot?”

“He could use it as a club.”

“We want shock value here, and most people will want to shoot him, not club him over the head. That will come later.”


You can perhaps see where this is heading.

Hopefully more will understand now why we do not get to do everything we may have wanted during the game. I feel we are given quite a few choices for a two hour game, with much more to come. The price is certainly nothing to complain about.

Fantastic job, Telltale! I applaud you and can’t wait for the next episode! *Clap,clap,clap!*

[Vainamoinen]

Sorry for the merge, Wabbit. But I really think this is the right place for your post.

[WabbitTwaks]

Originally Posted by Vainamoinen

Sorry for the merge, Wabbit. But I really think this is the right place for your post.

That's cool. Thanks

[Saboteur-6]

It's not that the choices felt limited, they just felt arbitrary and lacking in plot differentiation. Choice games are tough to make since people want their decisions to have story weight yet the developers have a clear vision of where the plot must go. It's all about seasoning the illusion of choice with enough "my decicions matter!" type of variation moments while traveling down the main plot.

A good example is the Carly/Doug decision (as there is a clear plot difference) and a bad example is the Duck/Shawn decision (as either decision leads to Duck's survivial and Lee being forced from the farm).

[WabbitTwaks]

Originally Posted by Saboteur-6

A good example is the Carly/Doug decision (as there is a clear plot difference) and a bad example is the Duck/Shawn decision (as either decision leads to Duck's survivial and Lee being forced from the farm).

Sure the initial results are basically the same, but farther reaching results may vary. From the comics, we know Shawn must die. I feel they were just choosing to show that here, instead of having it happen somewhere off screen. Opinions vary on whether seeing his death was a good idea or not. Some feel like we should have saved him and he die later.

The farther implications are whether we tried to save Duck or not. How will Kenny and Katjaa feel at some later point? They may seem okay with it now, but what happens in a stressful situation? Either one of them may remember that point and be very upset, or very happy about it (depending).

For us, it is an unknown as to what exactly will affect later parts of the game.

[corruptbiggins]

Just because we haven't seen an effect from a decision point doesn't mean that there won't be one.