Should this game be cancelled?

[MusicallyInspired]

You can't trust the credits given to the designers on the game boxes. Josh Mandel has long since exposed that Sierra had a "star/celebrity" designer PR system where they advertised someone as the lead and sole designer even if they had next to nothing to do with it, to appeal to the fanbase and sell more copies. Space Quest 6, for instance, doesn't mention Josh Mandel anywhere and gives Scott Murphy all the credit when he only finished it up towards the end after Josh left the company. Josh also designed most of Freddy Pharkas, as I understand it, and also Laura Bow 2. Yet those games are credited solely to Al Lowe and Roberta Williams respectively. Of course Roberta veto-ed everything on her games. She conceived and created King's Quest, after all. But that doesn't mean she came up with everything.

Also, I don't necessarily mean that SQ was better written, even though I may consider that true. I just mean that the Space Quest series as a whole is, in my opinion, better than the King's Quest series. In every aspect of design. Atmosphere, puzzle design, characterization, creativity, dialogue, humour (obviously), background art, music, etc. I consider all aspects, not just writing.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

You can't trust the credits given to the designers on the game boxes. Josh Mandel has long since exposed that Sierra had a "star/celebrity" designer PR system where they advertised someone as the lead and sole designer even if they had next to nothing to do with it, to appeal to the fanbase and sell more copies. Space Quest 6, for instance, doesn't mention Josh Mandel anywhere and gives Scott Murphy all the credit when he only finished it up towards the end after Josh left the company. Josh also designed most of Freddy Pharkas, as I understand it, and also Laura Bow 2. Yet those games are credited solely to Al Lowe and Roberta Williams respectively. Of course Roberta veto-ed everything on her games. She conceived and created King's Quest, after all. But that doesn't mean she came up with everything.

Also, I don't necessarily mean that SQ was better written, even though I may consider that true. I just mean that the Space Quest series as a whole is, in my opinion, better than the King's Quest series. In every aspect of design. Atmosphere, puzzle design, characterization, creativity, dialogue, humour (obviously), background art, music, etc. I consider all aspects, not just writing.

By the same token, couldn't Scott and Mark have had a lot of help which was not credited? It seems like you're trying to make Roberta out to be George Lucas--a fraud, a hack who got more credit than he was due. The fact is, when she didn't have a leading creative role, it was credited as such. For example, Jane Jensen wrote the dialogue and text for KQ6--And is credited as such. If it was all about advertising, the fact that Jane wrote the bulk of KQ6 wouldn't have been let out. Lorelei Shannon wrote the entire script for KQ7, with Roberta only contributing the story, characters and design ideas--and is credited as such. Once again, if Roberta had outside help, she gave credit. She is also listed last on the list of the three directors of KQ7.

I'm not talking about credits listed on game boxes or in advertising. I'm talking about credits given in the game's credits themselves.

Also, with Josh Mandel and Scott it seems that Josh's name being excluded from SQ6's advertising was out of spite as he quit the company leaving them with an unfinished game. Oddly though, the Holiday '94 issue of InterAction talks about SQ6 and has Scott and Josh heavily talked about as co-designers. That Josh was the new "Guy from Andromeda" alongside Scott.

Also while Josh's name was kept out of the advertising, he was given credit in the game's credits. I just watched the end of a longplay to confirm it. It says:

Designed by
Josh Mandel
Scott Murphy

Advertising is one thing. What really counts are the credits in the games themselves.

[Anakin Skywalker]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

Laura Bow 2. Yet those games are credited solely to Al Lowe and Roberta Williams respectively. Of course Roberta veto-ed everything on her games. She conceived and created King's Quest, after all. But that doesn't mean she came up with everything.

As to Laura Bow 2, these are the ingame credits:

Producer/Director:
Bruce Balfour

Writer:
Josh Mandel

Additional Written Material:
Lorelei Shannon

Special Thanks to:
Scott Murphy (among others)

In game credits for Freddy Pharkas:

Game Designers:
Al Lowe
Josh Mandel

Director/Producer:
Josh Mandel

[BagginsKQ]

One mystery is who was behind this bit of script in the KQ2 files

"She is even more lovely than she appeared in the mirror. Her long auburn hair tumbles down to cover her large firm breasts. Her erect nipples are one of the indications that her warm thighs would welcome your tender kisses."

Actually, most of the design interviews suggest that Roberta Williams wrote the text in KQ2 (just not the manual).

Although that bit sounds something more like Al Lowe would have done in LSL. He was just the musician for the game and writer of the KQ2 hintbook. IIRC, it was his work on KQ2 music that led to him getting the right to produce the first LSL!


As for the credits (the ones for the later games in the series are not necessarily complete);

King's Quest I Credits

King's Quest I: Quest for the Crown

AGI Version

Designed & Written by Roberta Williams

Original Version Charles Tingley Ken MacNeill Chris Iden

New Version Jeff Stephenson Sol Ackerman Chris Iden

Graphics Doug MacNeill Greg Rowland

Thanks to Linda Ackerman Mark Crowe Robert Heitman Scott Murphy

Documentation Roberta Williams

King's Quest I Sci Credits
SCI Version

Game Designer Roberta Williams

Producer Josh Mandel

Art Designer William D. Skirvin

Illustrated by Jeff Crowe Cindy Walker Jennifer Shontz

Programmed by Jerry Shaw, Gary Kamigawachi, Randy MacNeill, Raoul Said, Chad Bye, Oliver Brelsford, Mark Wilden

Development System Jeff Stephenson, Robert E. Heitman, Pablo Ghenis, John Hartin, Dan Foy, Larry Scott, John Rettig, Corinna Abdul Corey Cole, Mark Hood, Eric Hart

Composer Ken Allen

Quality Assurance Chris Carr and the rest of the gang

King's Quest II Credits

King's Quest II: Romancing the Throne


Designed & Written by Roberta Williams

Development System Jeff Stephenson Chris Iden Robert Heitman

Game Logic Ken Williams Sol Ackerman Chris Iden Scott Murphy Dale Carlson

Graphics Doug MacNeill Mark Crowe

Documenation Annette Childs

Music Al Lowe

King's Quest III Credits

King's Quest III: To Heir is Human

Written & Designed by Roberta Williams

Programming Al Lowe Bob Heitman Bob Kernaghan

Graphics Doug MacNeill Mark Crowe

Music Margaret Lowe

Story Annette Childs

Documentation Annette Childs

King's Quest IV Credits

King's Quest IV: The Perils of Rosella


Written & Designed by Roberta Williams

Game Development System Jeff Stephenson Robert Heitman Pablo Ghenis Chris Iden Paul Krasno

Music Development System Stuart Goldstein

Programming Ken Koch John Hamilton Chane Fullmer Chris Hoyt Teresa Baker

Animation & Background Scenes Carolly Hauksdottir William Skirvin Jerry Moore

Documentation Jerry Albright

King's Quest V Credits

King's Quest V: Absence Makes the Heart Go Yonder


Executive Producer Ken Williams

Creative Director Bill Davis

Game Designer & Producer Roberta Williams

Art Designer Andy Hoyos

Lead Programmer Chris Iden

Composers Mark Seibert Ken Allen

Documentation Bridget McKenna

Creative Consultant William D. Skirvin

Artists Ernie Chan, Douglas Herring, Jeff Crowe, William D. Skirvin, Maurice Morgan, Vas Nokhoudian, Barry T. Smith, Cindy Walker, Deena Benz, Tamra Dayton, Dana Dean, Roger Hardy Jr., Harry McLaughlin, Jennifer Shontz, Deanna Yhalkee, Jim Larson, Cheryl Loyd, Jerry Moore, Cheryl Sweeney, Eric Kasner, Hector Martinez, Richard D. Zeigler-Martin

Programmers Chris Iden, Chris Hoyt, Robert W. Lindsley, Raoul Said, Doug Oldfield, Carlos Escobar, Oliver Brelsford

Development System Jeff Stephenson, Robert E. Heitman, Pablo Ghenis, Corey Cole, Dan Foy, John Rettig, John Hartin, Larry Scott, Eric Hart, J. Mark Hood

Music/Sound Effects Mark Seibert Ken Allen

King's Quest VI Credits

King's Quest VI: Heir Today, Gone Tomorrow


Written, Designed, & Directed by Roberta Williams Jane Jensen

Producer, Director, & Art Designer William D. Skirvin

Composer Chris Braymen

Text & Dialogue Jane Jensen

Senior Artists Michael Hutchison John Shroades

Team Artists Russell Truelove Deanna Yhalkee

Senior Programmer Robert W. Lindsley

Team Programmers Randy MacNeill Robert L. Mallory Victor Sadauskas

Team Quality Assurance Robin Bradley

Guidebook Writer Jane Jensen

Guidebook Illustration John Shroades

Guidebook Designer Mark Empey

Additional Artists Darlou Gams, Tim Loucks, Rick Morgan, Jennifer Shontz, Cindy Walker, Karin A. Young

Opening Cartoon by Kronos: Stanley Liu, Albert Co

Cinematography Rod Fung Bob Ballew

Additional Music & Sound Effects Dan Kehler, Mark Seibert, Rick Spurgeon, Nightingale Songs

Additional Programmers Doug Oldfield Carlos Escobar

Additional Quality Assurance Mike Brosius John Ratcliffe

Technical Support Rob Koeppel

Special Thanks Tammy Dargan Rebecca Sebastian Fresno State University

King's Quest VII credits

Designed by Lorelei Shannon, Roberta Williams

Written by Lorelei Shannon

Script by Lorelei Shannon

Story by Lorelei Shannon, Roberta Williams

Based on original characters created by Roberta Williams

Directors Andy Hoyos, Lorelei Shannon, Roberta Williams

Producer Mark Seibert

Art Director Andy Hoyos

Director of Animation Marc Hudgins

Lead Programmers Oliver Brelsford, Tom DeSalvo

Musicians Neal Grandstaf, Dan Kehler, Mark Seibert, Jay Usher

Voice Director (Voice Casting and Direction) Lorelei Shannon

Quality Assurance Lead Dan Woolard

In-House Animation - Chapter 6 Steven Gregory, Sherry Wheeler, Jason Zayas

King's Quest 8 credits

Credits Team Mask

Designer/Writer Roberta Williams

Producer/Director/Co-Designer Mark Seibert

Art Director Jason Piel

Animation Director Jason Zayas

Programmers Adam Szofran Alan Clark David Wenger Jeff Orkin Jeff Pobst Jim Edwards John McKinnie Scott Bodenbender 3D Artists Barry Sundt Bob Munsil William Todd Bryan

Animators Ethan Walker John Piel Marc Vulcano Ray Bornstein

Quality Assurance Lead Jennifer Keenan

Sound FX & Additional Music Ben Houge

Additional help from: Al Eufrasio John Shroades Layne Gifford Mark Martino Mikhail Agadzhanov Rob Kenny Steve Conrad William O’Brien

Additional Credits

Voice Director Roberta Williams Mark Seibert

Voice Casting Roberta Williams Mark Seibert

Voice Auditions VoiceCaster Burbank, CA

Voice Recording Hollywood Recording Services

Voice Recording Engineer Mark Howlett

DREAMS Software Specialist Ben Houge

Original Music Composed & Performed By Kevin Manthei Ben Houge Mark Seibert

Opening, Closing and Flight to Temple Movies Digital Post Graphics Seattle, WA 39

Packaging Dan Amdur Jim Veevert

Documentation Mark Seibert Cheryl Sweeney Roberta Williams

Quality Assurance Manager: Gary Stevens

Assistant Manager: Ken Eaton

Lead: Bernadette Pryor

Engineer: Erinn Hamilton

PC Technician: Pat Callahan

Compatibility: Byron Hummel

Analysts: Ishmael Burns, Julie Bazuzi, Marc Nagel, Kate Powell, Noel Prude

Beta Testers Kate Ashley, Chris Canavan, Alan Chan, Lars Christen, Robert Glover, Mark Goodman, Chris Kateff, Geoff Keighley, Noah Koontz, Linda Lindley, Wes Litt, Tom Marley, Sherry Marshall, Steve Martin, Jeff Miller, Michael O’Brien, Michael Piontek, Della Rodgers, Mike Shavelson, Charles Solen, Corey Vanderlaan, Robin Ward, Stuart Young Special Thanks To Mark Hood, Scott Lynch, Jim Murphy, Zippy the Incredibly Inflatable Spitting Wonder Llama, The World Famous Talking Bear, --and all the moms, dads, husbands, wives, girlfriends, boy friends, & significant others without whom this game would have been completed months earlier.

[tomimt]

Is Ernie Chan mentioned on KQV art credits the same Ernie Chan who did a notable career drawing Conan and other comic books?

[Blackthorne519]

Originally Posted by tomimt

Is Ernie Chan mentioned on KQV art credits the same Ernie Chan who did a notable career drawing Conan and other comic books?

Yes, it is. I believe he just died recently.


Bt

[doom saber]

Originally Posted by BagginsKQ

No to fan groups getting the game.... no more black cloak conspiracies, thank you.

No to cancelling... Having another KQ to play should be fun or at least entertaining (if it turns out to be more like a movie than a game)... Even if it pales to the originals...

I don't get the 'stay dead' mentality. It shouldn't matter what comes out to those crowd, because it should still be considered 'dead' to them if the new one doesn't turn out the way they want it... they still have the old ones to play.

Agreed with the fan notion. As much as I am grateful for the fans to revive the KQ series, the games aren't as good as the SQ fan games. I think it is harder for fans to do a fan KQ game as oppose to an SQ one since the KQ fans do not grasp the tone of the official KQ games. The fan games aren't as good since they could not balance the serious dark aspects of the KQ elements with the light-hearted elements - the fan games tend to be too dark.

I think what makes KQ KQ are the light hearted elements. If a fan group approaches the series like a satrical fairy tale story like Shrek, it would be more in line with the KQ games. The SQ fans get SQ since I believe SQ stayed mostly consistent throughout its original run despite its change in humor in part 5 and 6.

[MusicallyInspired]

I'm curious, how do you feel about IA's KQ3 remake (as opposed to AGDI's KQ3Redux)?

[Murray the Chao]

Never liked IA's Alexander.

[doom saber]

Originally Posted by MusicallyInspired

I'm curious, how do you feel about IA's KQ3 remake (as opposed to AGDI's KQ3Redux)?

I actually like it since it stayed faithful to the original game. However, I didn't like the sprites and character animation for Alexander. I understand that the game is getting a major face lift with a better Alexander sprite in version 3. Strangely enough, I also like the AGDI version; I like the added journal subplot, though the Father reference was a bit of a turnoff - I understand why they added him in the AGDI remake. I thought the Medusa subplot was a bit silly - I understand why they added it, however.


When I meant KQ fangames, I meant TSL and AGDI's KQ 2 - the games that tried to rewrite the KQ mythology. The three other remakes are good, however.

Making new KQ fangames is fine as long as the games try to stay faithful to the original source. Not kissing butt (I know that you are part of the IA team,) but I like how IA handles the fangames since the team compliments the original source as oppose to retconning it. I think creating a Kingdom of Sorrow game based on the novel is a great idea since I assume it would stay faithful to the original source material.

I was talking to Baggins via PM on why I think the SQ fangames are better than the KQ fangames. I believe the SQ fangames are better because for the most part, they compliment the existing SQ canon. TSL and the second AGDI KQ games, on the other hand, tries to rewrite the game's mythos.

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by doom saber

Not kissing butt (I know that you are part of the IA team,)

MI also did the music for AGDI's KQ3.

[techie775]

Originally Posted by doom saber

I actually like it since it stayed faithful to the original game. However, I didn't like the sprites and character animation for Alexander. I understand that the game is getting a major face lift with a better Alexander sprite in version 3. Strangely enough, I also like the AGDI version; I like the added journal subplot, though the Father reference was a bit of a turnoff - I understand why they added him in the AGDI remake. I thought the Medusa subplot was a bit silly - I understand why they added it, however.


When I meant KQ fangames, I meant TSL and AGDI's KQ 2 - the games that tried to rewrite the KQ mythology. The three other remakes are good, however.

Making new KQ fangames is fine as long as the games try to stay faithful to the original source. Not kissing butt (I know that you are part of the IA team,) but I like how IA handles the fangames since the team compliments the original source as oppose to retconning it. I think creating a Kingdom of Sorrow game based on the novel is a great idea since I assume it would stay faithful to the original source material.

The only thing I thought was weird in KQ2 AGDI was the changing how certain characters acted (shopkeeper,red riding hood, dracula). Still liked how it worked out though.

[Irishmile]

Since we are talking about fan remakes.. what are your thoughts on this?
http://www.kq4remake.com/

It looks active. but it also looks like they have only two people working on it.. I personally want SOMEONE to do a decent talkie version of 4... I hope they dont get burnt out and see it through.

[BagginsKQ]

Personally I actually like the look of the early 16 color SCI games... To the point that I don't really care about remakes. I'd probably play a fan remake just to give it a try. But I'd go back to the original.

I prefer the original QFG2 for example. The original is less 'complicated', and easier to level, combat is easier, etc. There is less excess to wade through... The parser worked better...

But seriously if all the teams that have ever worked in a KQ4 remake got together, and combined their talents, they probably could have gotten a remake done this decade... Seriously this is like the 3rd or 4th group claiming to be making a remake?

[Chyron8472]

Originally Posted by Irishmile

Since we are talking about fan remakes.. what are your thoughts on this?
http://www.kq4remake.com/

It looks active. but it also looks like they have only two people working on it.. I personally want SOMEONE to do a decent talkie version of 4... I hope they dont get burnt out and see it through.

Yeah. They seem to at least be as far along as Magic Mirror Games is (whose website is back up again.)

I do hope they finish it. It looks great!

[FrankT]

Only if there has been NO work done whatsoever!

[KatieHal]

Aw, man, I got here too late to NOT talk about the Cabal?! Damn. *snaps fingers*

Anyways, I voted. I am open to the series being continued in any manner, officially or unofficially, here or elsewhere.

[Blackthorne519]

Originally Posted by KatieHal

Aw, man, I got here too late to NOT talk about the Cabal?! Damn. *snaps fingers*

Anyways, I voted. I am open to the series being continued in any manner, officially or unofficially, here or elsewhere.

KATIE. AHEM. CABAL-KIBOSH? CAPISCE?


Bt

[KatieHal]

Sorry! I just get so excited sometimes, I can't help it!